Tavern on the Meta

Don't go looking for a screenshot. It's saddening

@OrangeDog and this is why I'm probably done answering questions or even trying on the sites

oh I wouldn't have to. For some reason, archive.org is taking snapshots of this nonsense like every hour.

When you build a system that is basically a mexican standoff of offense flagging it's not going to end well.

if you have sufficient rep you don't need to go looking very hard

2:02 PM

I don't, but I read a screenshot earlier

You can request archive.org to take a screenshot (assuming people are doing that because fear of comment deletion/full question & answer deletion lately - oh, and staff editing things out of peoples answers but at least that allows an edit history)

not to mention all of the archive.whatever sites out there.

I'm almost shocked that SE hasn't requested their websites not be archived (its a simple form, I've done it with a few of my personal/teaching websites)

^ mostly because I couldn't afford hosting it for the students and archive/Google/whatever spidering me all the time

Doing so would leave no defence to censorship.

And I'm sure it's good-faith moderation anyway, rather than censorship

hence almost ;)

2:11 PM

@LinkBerest actually SE is fine with that as long as you attribute properly

and individual pageviews are cheap

2:25 PM

yeah, but I was stretching my budget pretty thin at the time (and university I was at didn't reimburse me)

@LinkBerest yeah, SE... has quite a lot of spare capasity

oh, I meant why I opted out :)

shrug I would have said SE is fine with that (if proper attribute given, of course - cite your sources!) but lately.....meh. Not sure if I trust that

That hasn't changed

Sure, licence versions but that wasn't as big an issue before

A: What is a feminine version of "dude"?

28

Among many of my friends (mostly 20-somethings, geeky, scattered throughout UK/US/Canada, including a couple of Californians), dude as a form of address is completely gender-neutral. So I often greet some of my female friends with “Dude, how’s things going?” or similar. As a noun referring to o...

Notice how that was posted by, in her words, a dude. :) Now, I've advised non-native speakers never to use "hailnames" at all because there's so rife with land mines of offence and condescension, but the potential for unhappiness is by no means restricted to being adressed by NNSes.

Like I don't like somebody I don't know calling me friend or pal or kid or gramps. Who would?

I'm not your friend, pal...

2:38 PM

Take a whizz, pups.

cocks a leg

@tchrist Words like dude and guys are fascinating in that they can be both gender neutral and very much not gender neutral depending on the context. So while "Dude, what's up" is gender neutral, "I saw a dude walking down the street" is explicitly referring to a male. Same with "Hey guys!" versus "Some guy".

I find it really interesting how the same word can change so much depending on context.

I also use duuuuuuuude as a general sound of exasperation ;p

A: Is there a word for colloquial forms of address?

> There are oodles of these, but most of them occur only between men, often young men, in casual situations. Many are strictly regional. Some say something about the age, sex, race, education, or social class of the speaker or the person addressed. Others carry a tone of irony, aggression, or condescension. They impose a faux intimacy if used on someone you don’t know, something many take offence at.

Excerpted from:

30

Informal forms of address: colloquial vocatives, faux intimates, hailnames What you’re talking about are informal forms of address, colloquial vocatives, faux intimates, or my favorite from William Safire, hailnames. They’re forms of direct address (hence vocatives) used in casual situations as...

Kinda like the American (at least I've only seen it from Americans) habit of using a shortened version of someone's name without permission. "Hi, I'm Charles" answered y "Hey Chuck!". Or Robert becoming Bob etc. Dammit, if I wanted you to call me Bob, I'd have introduced myself as Bob!

2:45 PM

@terdon It also depends on whether you're using them vocatively, like how something starting with "Listen you, ..." uses you. You're using something that isn't that person's name to address them in place of their name. It's dangerous.

Indeed.

As a form a formality, respect, and subtle distancing because of the relationship, the U.S. service industry invariably address their customers as sir when male and maam when female. Only the greymaned use miss, and then only for little girls or people perceived to be such, and that too is nearly always offputting.

@terdon That reminds me of the Monty Python sketch Interview With Sir Edward Ross

@tchrist Yes. I am curious to see what will replace those forms. I am not aware of any alternative, are you?

@PM2Ring ha! Yes :)

@terdon I'm virtually 100% certain that they won't be.

2:55 PM

@tchrist Replaced? I doubt that.

Blend them together and address everyone as "erm".

@OrangeDog Too close to McMaster Bujold's honorific for hermaphrodites: herm.

I know a woman named Meg who has the reverse problem. When some people want to be more formal they address her as Margaret, but that's not actually her name: in her case, Meg is not an abbreviation. FWIW, she's not a hippy kid, I think she's in her 70s.

Gimby

I'd think Meg to be short for Megan if anything. Or Megatron, in the case of Family Guy.

@terdon If you expect to EVER get some 365 million people to change their super-deeply engrained language 365 days of the year, I have some beachfront property in Florida that I just know you'd be interested in purchasing from me.

2:58 PM

@tchrist Not overnight. But over a few generations, sure.

user351483

Being a mod on Meta must suck recently.

@Gimby Yep. For some strange reason, one "abbreviation" of Margaret is Peggy, or Peg.

@Mgetz - What do you mean by "mexican standoff?" I flag thee.

Mexican standoff

A Mexican standoff is a confrontation in which no strategy exists that allows any party to achieve victory. Any party initiating aggression might trigger their own demise. At the same time, the parties are unable to extricate themselves from the situation without suffering a loss. As a result, all participants need to maintain the strategic tension, which remains unresolved until some outside event makes it possible to resolve it. The term Mexican standoff was originally used in the context of using firearms and today still commonly implies a situation in which the parties face some form of threat...

if there is a better term I'm all ears

but as far as I know that is the canonical term

@Mgetz - Sorry, I was joking, really.

user102937

3:01 PM

That's racist.

@tchrist pfft. Bridges are where it's at. I have a preloved one, nice patina for sale...

@ScottHannen I'm not, we're in a situation where the default action is not to educate or help people learn but to flag

user102937

(using my best Don Lafontaine voice)

Q: Have I entered the Twilight Zone?

it's deadly serious and it's going to ruin people's careers for no good reason

we are to use the colloquialism "Throwing the baby out with the bathwater"

user194636

So this is just stupid right?

user194636

3:02 PM

-8

A trans person, a troll, and a bigot log onto the same web site. One has a can of gasoline, another has a box of matches. They find this message from the site administrator: As you know, this site prides itself at being inclusive. It has come to our attention that our Inuit members feel th...

discussion

It's certainly not a question

user351483

I flagged for deletion. Same as for the user with the 15 minute rolling pronoun.

If only @Snow had been one of the close-voters

My 13 year old son, who has a sharp sense of humor, would antagonize his mother by saying "that's racist" any time she used a word in any context that might also have a racial connotation, like saying that she doesn't like Chinese food. He's been doing it for years. I didn't teach him that.

user351483

@OrangeDog I wanted it to go straight to the trashcan.

3:06 PM

@ScottHannen The funny thing is that in the US if someone said that I'd understand they don't actually mean chinese food, but rather the cornstarch and sugar version that has been called 'Chinese food' in the US for ages. If she said I don't like Cantonese food that is a very specific thing and more likely the real thing.

@ScottHannen it's a well known meme, so he might have picked it up there.

@PaulWhite That OP has been posting a lot of unhelpful comments. I can't remember any downright nasty ones worth flagging. But plenty that are fanning the flames & stirring up the brown stuff.

@Snow I don't think it was actually about you, dude. :P

user194636

@PM2Ring Yeah I sort of recognise the name, but that post makes no sense to me. Trying to be funny?

user194636

Anyway, I would VtD if I could, but I don't see it as r/a.

user194636

3:08 PM

And gone.

ArtOfCode

got the last one in

That user has over 22K rep in superuser.

We've been to China and Hong Kong. A little bit of the food is the same, but definitely not mayonnaise shrimp.

user194636

@ArtOfCode love your work

@PaulWhite it was making a point about favouring some minorities above others, framed with unhelpful cultural references

3:09 PM

@DavidA indeed, fixer is a good person.

People have 'had enough'

JNat

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog gone

@Mgetz this is the perfect term. In game theory it's shown the way to win, is to have the other two parties shoot each other.

JNat

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog gone

SE is sitting back, laughing, as the userbase tears itself apart, so they can sell up without much fuss.

@djsmiley2k and people wonder why some users think this is deliberate and intended to push away users

3:12 PM

@PaulWhite My take is that yes, they're trying to be funny, but not intending to be offensive. And their point is that the pronoun thing (especially the collection of neopronouns) is a big fuss for the entire user base over something that is only of importance to a tiny fraction of the user base. That's a valid position, and very hard to state without offending someone. So I assume the humour was intended to reduce the potential for offense, not increase it.

5

@Mgetz I half think it is.

and half think that someone is..... rugh.

user194636

@PM2Ring Just seems like an odd way to spend one's time to me.

user194636

I wouldn't mind so much if the post had actually been amusing, or made some insightful new point.

@PaulWhite we're all in this chatroom aren't we?

Well there are also a number of people treating it like lives are at stake and the average person just isn't going to understand that at all.

user194636

3:13 PM

@OrangeDog Fair point.

@PaulWhite That user doesn't like the CoC, and picking faults in it is their way of complaining. As have many others. But their shit-stirring style isn't very constructive.

user194636

Yeah but why pick on @Snow

user194636

weak joke probably not worth the ping, but hey ho

@PaulWhite did you know there are 50 different ways to ping them?

user194636

Noice

Red Hot Chili Peppers - Snow (Hey Oh) (Official Music Video)

3:24 PM

@PM2Ring What IS constructive exactly? SE has shown their disane for their user base, they don't listen to anything we say so a well written post is no better than this in some ways.

@PaulWhite this is what I say ooooooooooooh

►

(Incase anyone didn't get it.)

user194636

very good!

If you believe they won't listen, there's even less point writing anything

user351483

@djsmiley2k Is this about me?

Many years ago, when I first encountered neopronouns, I thought it was a great concept, but I didn't feel very comfortable with any of the various neopronoun schemes, and I felt it would be difficult to get the trans community to choose 1 scheme, and even harder to get the general populace to accept them & use them.

Almost 20 years later, there are even more schemes, and still no clear-cut best scheme. IMHO, neopronouns are still in the beta testing phase and are not yet ready to be rolled out for general use. I certainly encourage non-binary people to continue beta testing, though.

3:32 PM

Beaten.

@PM2Ring You encountered neoprounouns many years ago? Really?

@Snow I have made that pun several months ago before :)

23 hours ago, by PM 2Ring

@AGirlHasNoName It's not easy. But I've been practicing being diplomatic for several decades. And although I've mostly avoided political discussions of LGBTQ+ stuff for the last decade, and even avoided most LGBTQ+ sites online (apart from the xkcd safespace), I have been thinking about (& educating myself about) trans topics for over 40 years.

@terdon have existed since at least 1890 according to Wikipedia

I think I probably saw them in scifi literature years ago, but usually for more exotic genders than what we actually find in today's humans.

3:35 PM

Spivak first published a book with eir eponymous pronouns in 1983

The Joy of TeX

@OrangeDog And what was in 1890 then? Or did you mean 1980?

Ah, Rogers!

I honestly can't remember where I first encountered neopronouns, probably in some sci-fi work. And I'm pretty sure they're mentioned in Transgender Warriors which I read in the late 1990s, or early 2000s.

@terdon "a January 1890 editorial by one James Rogers"

Yep, saw it later.

looking at the referenced paper, that's just the first occurrence of "em". It appears there is considerable discourse in publications of the time for building new neutral pronoun systems.

ne, nis, nim; thon, thons; hi, hes, hem; le, lis, lim; unus; talis; hiser, himer; ip, ips; ir, iro, im; ons; he'er, him'er, his'er; hesh, hizzer, himmer; and so on and soforth for a few more pages

Notions (Winchester College)

3:49 PM

On a vaguely related note, some English schools have (or had) extensive systems of rather bizarre slang terms, which pupils were expected to memorize. The most well-known is from Winchester College, which was attended by the gay mathematician G. H. Hardy; I learned about it from Hardy's biography.

Notions are the specialised slang used, now or formerly, by pupils, known as men, at Winchester College. A notion is defined as "any word, custom, person or place peculiarly known to Wykehamists". The number of notions officially in use declines each year, with around 200 notions currently included in the official Notions book sent to New Men. Some of the same words are used at other schools, in particular Eton and Charterhouse (e.g. both schools use "div", though with extended meanings), though there they are not referred to as "notions". A Wykehamist may however speak (e.g.) of "an Eton notion...

That we haven't added new gender-neutral pronouns despite needing them shows how extremely difficult it is to modify that aspect of the language. I recommend introducing them via use in news broadcasts and in newspaper headlines and articles. They are in a better position to push that front line. Get them into common use and I'll follow.

Don't follow, lead.

Don't hollow, feed.

That I will do in the near future.

@ScottHannen people don't even watch the same news channels anymore.

3:57 PM

@ScottHannen others would say we already have them so we don't need to - they/their/them

fixer1234

Hey, people. I see my post wasn't understood or appreciated. My general point was that the place is no longer recognizable, like finding myself in the Twilight Zone or on the Jerry Springer Show. I was trying to point out how bizarre things have become. It was a call for a return to sanity. Guess it didn't achieve that.

Several people have characterized my comments and posts as intended to stir up shit. That hasn't been my intention at all. There are multiple sides to the issues and people have posted on all sides. I've attempted to express a legitimate view in a rational way. It's a view that's been drowned out. It's never been my intention to lob grenades to feed the chaos. But I do agree that it's time to let things settle down.

Everything that can be said has been said, and stirring the pot isn't constructive at this point.

Uh, which one is that

48 mins ago, by PM 2Ring

@PaulWhite My take is that yes, they're trying to be funny, but not intending to be offensive. And their point is that the pronoun thing (especially the collection of neopronouns) is a big fuss for the entire user base over something that is only of importance to a tiny fraction of the user base. That's a valid position, and very hard to state without offending someone. So I assume the humour was intended to reduce the potential for offense, not increase it.

user194636

50 shades of frozen water

Didn't people get tired of beating a zombie horse

4:01 PM

If a horse is going around eating people's brains I think that's a good time to start beating it

5

Gotta catch it first

Ansgar Wiechers

Not as long as the zombie horse keeps running around threatening to eat your face.

The key point is running around. You can't catch it.

The really depressing thing is that the above exchange is probably the most rational conversation happening on the network...

:P

Trying to hit it with a stick is even worse.

4:06 PM

If you feed your face to a zombie horse, do it with a flat hand.

@fixer1234 I have been giving you the benefit of the doubt. I'm happy to believe that you haven't been intending to stir up trouble. OTOH, it's hard to write stuff ATM that isn't going to ruffle someone's feathers. And really, rustling the feathers of any individual is not going to resolve anything. We need SE as a company to do something to resolve this. Even targetting individual SE staff members won't achieve that.

Kevin B

It's not a problem that can be "fixed". the damage is done

@KevinB someone here gets how to deal with zombie horses

@KevinB I fear you may be right, but I continue to cling to a very thin thread of hope. There are a few things they could do which may partly repair the damage, but as time passes, I'm losing more & more confidence that those things will happen. And as more time passes, the less effective those things will be, even if they were done.

Kevin B

True intent is already public for everyone to see. You can hide it, roll back, etc, but it's already out there. No softening of the CoC will change that.

Ansgar Wiechers

4:13 PM

Oh, things will happen for sure. Probably not the things you're hoping for, though ...

@OrangeDog Now I want to make a game where all the boss fights are common phrases, I'll call it "Unnamed Phrase Game"

Replacement of staff would probably do it, or a statement from new CEO followed by immediately visible changes

Rubiksmoose

@Mgetz [honk]

@OrangeDog not actually sure it would fix anything. Replacing staff just puts people that have the same dissociation with the community in the same positions just different names. At that point we should just give the current folks nicknames and pretend everything is fixed

not if you replace them with people who don't have the same dissociation...

4:18 PM

@OrangeDog so hiring mods as staff?

and part of the problem is that users have lost trust in specific staff; starting from a clean slate is a solution

@OrangeDog I think certain staff have been thrown under the bus

and the users have latched onto them because they can and potentially worse reasons

perhaps, but the new CEO can in turn throw the thrower

It would honestly help if the staff members we do all respect and trust would get more say in a way we can see

You assume they can do that at this point, or they aren't the person who did it?

4:21 PM

@Mgetz they weren't here, so yes

@Magisch can we have a trash cleanup please?

clean slates are rare opportunities, but it's unlikely they'd take advantage of it

John Dvorak

On a completely unrelated note, do you think it would be legal for a company to require their PR staff to tweet or retweet specific things?

@JohnDvorak yes, obviously

that's literally their job

@JohnDvorak it would have be contractual

4:22 PM

@OrangeDog - I argued against "they/their/them" as singular/neutral. I've since caved, realizing how common it is and that I already use them all the time. That pretty much undercuts any objection I thought I had.

@Mgetz What exactly?

@Magisch it got deleted, nevermind sorry

aight

@Mgetz contracts typically say you have to carry out the work for which you are employed to do as your manager sees fit

@Mgetz I figured it'd be ok because I was basically defending that person.

4:24 PM

@OrangeDog not in the PR space, and even then "as your manager sees fit" has very defined legal limits

I don't see any reason to throw any staff under the bus. I certainly don't agree with everything that's been done, but that's just not necessary at all.

@PM2Ring I think that's in the eye of the beholder

Rightio

Someone proposed the idea of appointing a couple mods to independent board seats. That sounded interesting.

Kevin B

does it tho?

4:27 PM

that'd never happen

it sounds interesting

SE's a for profit private corporation

it would never happen for the literal board of directors

Dylan

Stress everywhere.

John Dvorak

@Dylan that's just how gravity works

4:46 PM

39 mins ago, by M.A.R.

The key point is running around. You can't catch it.

HMMMM

5:30 PM

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

5:54 PM

→ 42 messages moved to Chimney

🧹🧹🧹

user1306322

6:40 PM

@terdon they've already replaced forms with wpf

can anyone else reproduce this? meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335470/…

looks like the user is moderator so maybe it's a mod css bug

user1306322

7:07 PM

meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335408/… why can't I, hold this great quantity of off-topic comments

I had a good joke for that post but it eluded me

And then there was silence

That is in honor of the eluded joke ...

Oh trust me, my joke eludes to something far worse

bjb568

7:25 PM

I see a new train wreck on meta.

define new

Oooh, a wild @bjb568 appeared

How caught up are you? It's been going on for two weeks

bjb568

hah, I only saw it since it was posted on HN.

I don't read much meta these days.

do your sanity a favor and refrain from trying to learn all about it

7:28 PM

@bjb568 Which train, the 1500 Friday, or the multiple that crashed last week?

bjb568

I skimmed over it and it looked like most people were wrong. On the internet!

/me facepalms

7:59 PM

> This IP address (<redacted>) has performed an unusual high number of requests and has been temporarily rate limited. If you believe this to be in error, please contact us at team@stackexchange.com.

Ouch

Q: Will off-topic comments/answers lead to closing or locking of a question?

7

What will happen if a question gets off-topic answers or comments? Can someone else's answers or comments lead to the closing or locking of my question?

discussion questions comments answers locked-questions

@Zoethetransgirl where’d you get that? I only saw a horrible comment at that link

I'm IP blocked on main atm

@Zoethetransgirl what?

That’s bad

I just got unblocked, checked again, IP blocked again

Bye gtg

8:04 PM

cya

@Zoethetransgirl you are opening up a crazy # of user profiles

that's gonna get you blocked really fast

well, now I know what's causing it :]

Botty things cause botty blocks

stackapps.com/questions/8440/pronoun-assistant .

donno what you're doing, but... Trying to scrape profiles is a good way to have a bad day.

ah... @Glorfindel - use API pls

2

8:07 PM

Just disabled it

didn't realize that'd been expanded to main. Can't do that on main.

API should do it w/o breaking a sweat

It happened earlier today, it's pretty new

welp, guess this is a sign to take a break ^^"

Glorfindel

@Shog9 sorry, didn't realize it was making so many calls. Depends on the page, I guess ...

on... certain questions... It stands a good chance of loading a LOT of profiles

Oh god, the C++FAQ questions...

8:11 PM

For an instance the CoC announcement and the apologies. Tons of posts, tons of comments, tons of profiles :]

those get sooo many spammy answers

I had that today too

got blocked for using the pronoun helper script. i guess when you're repeatedly loading questions with like 50 different users in the initial swath of comments that'd be why

Might also be worth adding some caching. Nothing big, but like 20 minutes between updates for users. That would at least avoid burning through the API quota at an insane speed

ArtOfCode

@Glorfindel working on a fix

Glorfindel

@Zoethetransgirl that, too, but it'll need local storage for that.

@ArtOfCode thanks! I'm busy doing something else right now, so much appreciated.

8:17 PM

yeah

9:01 PM

@Shog9 oh I didn’t know that’s possible to get banned for

@Shog9 what was the number, about?

I donno

lots

many

when the timestamp doesn't appear to change between requests, and I can't get 'em all on a 30" monitor... It's too many

Wow that’s a whole ton

Is Stack Apps supposed to onebox?

Generally don't want to do that for any requests, but... profiles can be pretty heavy - lotta disparate bits of info get pulled into 'em. Those are especially not good to hit really fast.

Are profiles specifically watched for by rate limiting to frustrate scrapers too?

I don't know/remember

but generally-speaking, if you're creating a lot of load and... aren't Googlebot... You're in trouble.

9:14 PM

goes to become googlebot

I am search engine

(this is true for the API too, but the API has handy backoff info)

9:24 PM

I bet the API is also much better at only grabbing what you really need

very much so

if you just need the bio, you can ask for just that

Incidentally, I got to use the API for the first time two weeks ago or so. It's a credit to your documentation and UI that I could figure out what I needed within half an hour.

until then APIs and endpoints were things that always only happened to other people

9:50 PM

this line for the trashcan

202324 was here

you will be remembered

at least for a day or two

no that's not gonna survive past the hundred messages limit unless I swear

but I'm to old for fight or swar

what did I miss?

gonna sit here and watch your destroy your house

my house is made of concrete, thank you very much

9:57 PM

it's not your real house, it's a metaphor

no matter, my metaphors are also made of concrete

where's @M.A.R. when you need quality nonsense

I wish I could shitpost with the style M.A.R. uses for everything

there's way less M.A.R. than we deserve

ArtOfCode

@Glorfindel it's in - you'll want to add an API key before you push it out

10:13 PM

@202324 Hear, hear.

10:45 PM

@SébastienRenauld Yeah, she was looking for trouble.

Exactly what people were afraid of.

trouble has a way of finding her

What did Yvette actually ask?

She flagged someone who said "dude" in a comment replying to her, then posted an angry Meta message when a moderator edited out the "dude".

11:00 PM

Not sure why she'd do that, but OK. Hope it's resolved.

user204841

11:15 PM

That's not exactly what happened, though. The message was angry because she found moderation to be inconsistent because "dude" was removed, but her flag was declined and her comment to the user was removed.

Depending on the kinda flag, that might be appropriate. If it was a comment especially, we can only validate or dismiss. Flags are meant mainly for attention anyway

Feeds

They managed to briefly hit the top of the rankings when they rejected everyone except one applicant, published 5 billion research papers that just said "Hi," and hired one of their graduates for $50 trillion/year (then fired them after 10 microseconds.)

user204841

Yes, it might have been better to just comment or flag later. But I remember that the CoC FAQ stated comments should be flagged and corrected.

user204841

Or a discussion in the comments of the FAQ post. I got a bit lost in all of that :/

Perhaps the ability to disengage is a blessing. Some people are so serious about everything, and it creates massive amounts of stress.