Tavern on the Meta

@Bart so, confirmed, the face is not invisible but nonexistent

7:39 AM

It broke the bot? Wow.

25 deleted answers by the way

Holy

@M.A.R. it's like the emperor's new clothes. Glorious but absent.

Well, I think I saw one of those

@Bart nah, they're just Gucci

user351483

And the amount of times that the event that the CoC amendment now covers has occurred in the past? Zero.

7:41 AM

Maybe not, see the law of large thingies

Alright, I'd probably be offline for the rest of the day.

Ciao

Cya oh three lettered one

user351483

I have no wish to see a large thingy, but thanks.

But... thingy!

user206222

@Snow It's... mostly people venting and a lot of clearly bad-faith stuff, it's, sincerely not worth looking through anyway.

@Aza This is why I haven't even bothered reading the answers there. I don't need to read through a bunch of people being, well, jerks.

7:48 AM

I'd say that of a lot of meta at the moment :/

~pokes head in, waves

o/

user206222

Yeahhh, even the stuff that's still up isn't what I'd call a shining beacon of inclusion. But, hey, the worst of the worst is gone, so.

user206222

[wave]

user351483

@Vogel612'sShadow <tired, resigned, hand-lift>

7:50 AM

@Aza I'm not entirely sure I agree there, but its... erf

morning.

Stuff that's going to be difficult to make a decision on

Here once again.

user206222

Oh, yeah, it's definitely the hard stuff for the most part.

Saw the CoC post, still have to read it fully but already noticed the end results.

7:51 AM

It was at something like +15 when I went to bed.

Woke up... -200 over :/

user351483

-366 now.

user206222

I worry a little that deletions just... teach people all the right words to say so they can let their views slip through the cracks unremoved.

user206222

Downvotes beget downvotes. Once it goes negative it'll never come back.

Yesterday I said I would leave you a last gift when I posted that Merlin picture.

but... here we are again, and at the cost of contradicting myself I think something more appropriate is deserved.

Gumball's SJW Battle

►

user206222

Sorry, to clarify-- a post I wrote?

7:54 AM

@Aza oh, no, don't worry, Your message just happened to fall in the middle of the ones I was writting

I wasn't replying to you in any way.

@Aza there's a lot of crap there, but this we should be careful not to lump helpful responses along with the rest

user206222

Wwwwwell that video's clearly just, mocking people who are actually working to make the place more inclusive.

The point is that right now my impression is that we are just doing that

fighting over who is more inclusive

Yeah, I have... issues with it. I've seen it linked more times than I care to think about recently.

I think calling people out for fighting for inclusivity has kind of a cynical and fatalistic angle to it. Sure some people get overzealous or lose sight of the goal or misuse the traction for personal gain but in general "Gee look at that person they still care about decency lol" is pretty saddening

and the use of perjoratives like SJW doesn't help. It's a chilling word like all other chilling words, only useful in ending debate and hardening fronts.

7:59 AM

it doesn't help that there are plenty of chilling words being thrown around in the name of inclusivity

that's true, @Magisch, but sadly that is not what I see in the comments on MSE or in the chat flags.

@Aza the difficulty there is - do we want to get rid of potentially hurtful things or leave them as an example?

I'd personally rather get rid of stuff we have no place for.

One thing that I learnt from this incidence is... I feel a lot better without thinking any of this :/

If it does not give people joy... uhm, in the dumpster it goes?

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Remove 'em, for sure. You'd have to make a pretty strong argument for keeping them there, imo. Unless they're a vector for you to add sincere clarity to the FAQ and policy...

user206222

8:02 AM

And by that I mean: someone comes in with a statement reflecting bigotry; that lets you clarify what you mean to say, "you cannot express this kind of view." But most posts falling in this category are extremely repetitive, so most can/should be removed.

user206222

The sheer volume of "what if I identify as an attack helicopter" posts, for example, which are (thankfully and correctly) not sticking around.

@Aza eh, the attack helicopter ones are easy

user206222

Yeah, I picked low-hanging fruit.

@Aza for what it's worth a lot of those people are just ignorant and could be helped under different circumstances with a few bottles of beer

Thankfully we're not in a space where rule lawyering works

pulling that kind of crap is going to get shut down quick by the mods

user206222

8:07 AM

@AndrasDeak People can be educated out of bigotry, but thankfully, that's not... really our job? Like, I get how in principle we should be here to try to share knowledge and teach people, but it puts a pretty heavy burden on minoritized people to expect education.

It is kinda the job of mods though

leading by example and such, the best case being is that users then come around from seeing it's not so bad and how it helps

Mods aren't under any obligation to hand-hold.

user206222

I really don't think it is. To be clear, we can't generate the personal circumstances necessary to do that. Bigotry is insidious in a key way: it stops you from considering the possibility that your view could carry bigotry.

oh, I would to. And probably that is what I will do now since it is not like this CoC will do much change to what I was *already trying to do* - unless it gets misused, that is.
But I still want to warn you folks here that what I see here is people that started from a common attempt to Be Nice and now are stuck for a month yelling at each other, while throwing in random tidbits like "if in 2019 you still think that way, then you are not nice enough and should do some serious personal growth"

@Magisch note that leading by example and teaching are subtly but importantly different

8:09 AM

@Aza I think there are gradients

I've just learned that Hayley Kiyoko dropped a new song, though, so I shall go listen to that before anything else. *vanishes*

@Magisch tbh, in a lot of ways, we're confused too

A lot of people with lets say retrograde views have the capacity for reflection and change of heart. A lot of times this is not facilitated by being called a bigot, but by seeing the benefits of others not acting this way

user206222

That's extremely fair, and is why there's a key difference between 'teaching' (I sit down with you in a room and Show You The Way), and 'leading'.

user206222

In general, efforts to actively teach people who aren't interested in learning (which, holding tightly to bigotry will do)... is not productive.

user206222

8:11 AM

But building a safer community? Either someone's views will prevent them from participating at all, in which case... okay, that's fine. Or, they'll see it's safer, warmer, more accepting, and... start to come around.

A little about me. Some 6 or 7 years ago I used to think the concept of diverging pronouns was patently ridiculous. I was only getting into speaking proper english then, and I would have laughed all the way at someone demanding me to use them. You'd probably call that bigoted, because it is. Yet someone calling me out for that wouldn't have caused me to reconsider

user206222

I am curious, then, what did cause you to reconsider?

what eventually did was people I respected living by example of respecting them, it caused inflection of the kind of "this person I really think is on the level is doing this, perhaps I need to research it before forming an opinion" and it goes from there

user206222

How'd you find those people, and what led you to respect them in that kind of way?

So, to be clear, the point of the Gumball example was to point out that IMHO some of the arguments on the MSE site are degenerating in two factions trying to demonstrate that the "opponent team" is not as nice as they are instead of trying to find a common agreement. I hope that is just me, but just in case I would suggest that the only way to end this is to stop and restart from the common shared objective of being nice both groups originally had.

And with this, sorry but I'll have to get away for a while. Fell free to ping me if you need

8:15 AM

@Aza Just people I respected in general. Some admins in a space I was also involved in moderating, and some normal users I just knew as being generally rational and kind

@SPArchaeologist-様 well, SE has their own ideal, and I also have my own ideal. As long as they're not clashing, why should I make myself difficult...

user206222

@Magisch That makes sense. Sincere question-- do you think those people felt safe, in the spaces you encountered them in?

When you hold this kind of view, in your head the people pushing it are these caricatures you see trotted out every time someone brings it up. It needs a real example of a real kind and good person to break that stereotype

user351483

@Aza I tend to believe that the pre-existing "be nice" policy was largely working just fine. I have no idea where the need for this huge and very specific sledgehammer came from.

@Aza I couldn't say

Probably not, in our staff chats, to be honest

two of the admins caused a pretty drastic culture shift in our group though

8:17 AM

@Snow I can tell you it wasn't working just fine.

not by punishing anyone but by being living counterexamples

@Aza heh, I used to run in a super accepting, friendly community with a ton of trans and other folks.

... one of the admins was a powerhungry idiot and chased everyone off...

user206222

@Magisch I'm real sorry to hear it was tense, that way. But I'm glad they could help.

user206222

@JourneymanGeek It only takes one ;)

It does

8:20 AM

Of course, it's unfair to demand of people to be counterexamples in order to be respected. You shouldn't have to meet a high bar to get basic decency. But thats the only way I've ever really seen people u-turn out of retrograde views with lasting effects

user206222

I'm no paragon of the counterexample, but for what it's worth, I have rather openly disavowed civility as a mandatory requirement of progress. I think it's a very useful tool, but there are so many cases where it does not help that, well...

user206222

That's a part of why I resigned. If I wanted to fight queerphobia on SE, I couldn't do it while being a moderator.

user206222

Moderators have an implied responsibility to keep peace, above all else. I can't go causing trouble and holding my diamond, it would be improprietous. Not like that hasn't stopped some people, but hey.

@Aza I don't think I can get anywhere, without a position of privilege without being civil

Even without being a moderator

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Queer rights were won by throwing bricks, in the US. Appeals to power, asking politely, don't always work. That starts to change the moment people with power and influence start to work with you.

8:25 AM

@Aza Never had any

My folks have been nearly wiped out in places, force converted, discriminated against...

IMHO, becoming a moderator is not the way to influence SE though.

@MetaAndrewT. naw

more in terms of influencing a community

but if you've been a good, popular mod, its the person not the position

user206222

I'm, sincerely sorry that's happened, honestly. I wish it were different. And I respect that different cultures may need different kinds of touch to achieve progress.

@Aza Well - its not your fault. And I guess we're not faultless in lots of ways. Some of my folks were snooty, excessively superior acting people

user206222

I can understand, but even so, that's no justification for... all that.

8:30 AM

We survived. We still survive. People mostly stopped trying to wipe us out - its just softer discrimination

We'll survive. Probably even eventually win, whatever that means ;)

I never felt the throwing-bricks method of progress has worked permanently yet. I think the real way it stick is when people are forced to confront their biases when they see something that shatters their stereotype

user206222

I get that, too, on multiple fronts.

we often base large swaths of our world view on key assumptions. when some of those no longer hold, a lot of other harmful views collapse with them

@Magisch I think my big lightswitch moment was seeing how happy an (online) friend was when she was allowed to be herself

user206222

@Magisch For better or for worse, Stonewall was a violent riot and kicked off the gay rights movement in the US by calling attention to the brutality of queer existence. Throwing a brick is not, itself, a solution. But being willing to throw a brick when the moment is right can absolutely help.

user206222

8:35 AM

That's why I disavow civility as a requirement of progress. I and a lot of my friends share praxis: we work towards progress as much as we can in a cooperative way first, to the greatest extent possible.

@Aza sure.

user206222

Historically, at some point, that stops working.

And that's why cultural difference makes a big difference, for someone who lives in a majority and some radical Muslim country...

Hiding behind "You're not civil enough" is something only people in a position of privilege can afford, in general

user206222

@MetaAndrewT. It's very true, this is a feature of the injustices queer people have faced in the US. It's not a model I would ask anyone else to apply to their situation.

user206222

8:37 AM

I say "injustices" when nearly 100,000 people died, but hey.

What I can say though, Is i'm surprised (positively) that they're serious about making this work

no "tough CoC" that gets ignored in the same sentence it gets announced, like on some social sites

user206222

I wasn't terribly shocked, I think. Stack tends to be fairly frank about what they're intending, and they hire tenacious CMs. Granted they also exist to protect a key company asset, which can't be discounted, but... from the second action they took, it was pretty clear this was going somewhere.

@Aza Uhm I don't think they expected the depth of reaction

Well some folks might have. I didn't.

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Depends on whether you mean as an institution or as individuals, I think. As an organization, definitely not. But like I say, CMs are tenacious ;)

Hey what did I miss?

8:48 AM

A lot. Or nothing. Depends on how you look at it.

user206222

Like, take Sara. People give her crap, but... Sara's not well-known in activism because she's bad at it. That takes a willingness to push for what you know is right. And it also takes prior exposure to exactly how bad it can get, when you make changes like these.

...

;)

user351483

@Shadow The Dukes of Hazzard got cancelled.

???

@Shadow *exhales loudly*

user351483

8:50 AM

@Shadow something you missed.

@user58 you mean burp?

...N...o.

So like a snake? 🐍

This kinda sums up what you missed.

That's just a tweet

And the CoC covers this already, no?

8:53 AM

It is. And a short one, at that.

user206222

A short tweet? Shweet.

Too saccharine, I'm afraid

Now, a sweet Shweet on the other hand...

Yawwwwwwwwwwn

new day and i'm hopefully feeling a little brighter.

@Aza I have faith in people

Organisations, less so

user206222

8:58 AM

@JourneymanGeek Me, too. I think the individual people probably had some inkling it could get real bad.

@Aza true - and yet...

user206222

@JourneymanGeek And yet...?

Well, all this

Basically weeks of drama, more divisions, even more drama...

user206222

Oh, yeah, well. It's pretty clear that the organization didn't have a system in place to support the fallout, even if the individuals knew it could happen.

I need to untangle several 10+ deep nested sql queries with multitudes of tables in them today

9:01 AM

ooh. I'd love to see a DR plan for something like this

all things considered, I consider this a strict upgrade over if I had to firefight on the FAQ post

user206222

But we kinda... knew that CMs are still updating their toolkit, already. So I'm not too shocked in retrospect.

user206222

Most of my worry was that CMs wouldn't act, and then they wouldn't act again, and then they wouldn't know how to follow through, and... most of my worry has been resolved.

user206222

@Magisch have fun refactoring that .-.

@Aza I would never accuse any of the CMs of not caring

9:02 AM

@Aza too brown ;)

but honestly - meta right now is just...

Crowded

lemme put it this way. I loved being a meta mod, and I pretty much think I'd burn out in a week

Meta is crowded with angry mob...

user206222

My napkin guessing says Meta moderation's a job for seven people, right now.

9:03 AM

It's a bit, well, toxic at the moment, because there aren't really many people keeping a handle on things.

@Aza heh, that's barely enough on a good day ;p

@Shadow B3 NO1C3!!1!

@Aza and two of the appointed meta mods aren't here anymore

@Aza all the CM group plus one manager

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Seven people, full-time ;)

9:05 AM

@Aza oh, that's barely enough D:

@MetaAndrewT. C4

Old SO ran on three

user206222

@JourneymanGeek It's my job to know how many people something takes!

C4 is okay too... strong pawn

user206222

I'm a part-time professional people approximator.

9:06 AM

That's quite the job description.

we need a word meaning approximately approximator starting with p

Part-time professional procrastinator here...

para-approximator

user206222

Fun fact, work has a couple people with the job title "Master Scheduler," which I think is pretty neat.

user206222

"I am the Controller, the One who Observes. I see your deadlines. I see your dates. I know when they are wrong."

9:09 AM

@MetaAndrewT. No, that's standard mathematical notation for some group theory stuff.

See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_rotation_group

@Aza I had a running joke with a member of staff - whenever asked what SE needed I'd go 'more CMs'

user206222

My official calculation as a part-time professional people approximator says the CMs are short-staffed by one person. ;)

Oh, and while we're talking about it...

@Aza I never said we should, especially not you.

user206222

9:25 AM

@Catija I know you just woke up / popped in, but if you have a spare second and have the spoons for it, it might be worth dropping into a private room, or room 99750 (on main chat).

@Aza Is that more project management work?

user206222

@Magisch The job of the Master Scheduler is to set the key scheduling deadlines for major events in the lifecycle of a product. It's not quite project management -- that falls on people who are directly responsible for that work.

user206222

The Master Scheduler coordinates when that work needs to happen. In essence, they give marching orders to ensure fulfillment by a need date.

Ah so the project manager gives you a date and you tell them when people need to start and how much they need to work on it

and ensure the resources are allocated?

user206222

9:41 AM

@Magisch Well, I don't personally do that, I'm a.... I have a job title, I swear. But yeah, in essence.

user206222

The Master Scheduler is responsible for knowing when things happen by. They work in tandem with people who would fulfill a traditional project management role to ensure those dates can be met.

I'm not clearly allocated between software dev, backend dev, frontend dev, first level support and sysadmin myself

a bit of all

user206222

Their job exists as a feature of the unusual complexity of what we make.

user206222

Yeah, that's a way to think about it.

and of course GDPR compliance

which thankfully doesn't eat that much time

user206222

9:44 AM

We have our own set of regulation compliances, which are more complex than GDPR for sure. But those are generally on the opsec/infosec team and they clean it up in the background.

sounds like aerospace or millitary tech

user206222

[shrug]

user206222

Well... at minimum, I'm trans, so I'm not legally permitted to work for the military.

That is some grade a BS btw

I think there's a SCOTUS case about it?

I know there's a related one

user206222

Thankfully, looming impeachment has made it somewhat more difficult for him to be actively bad.

user206222

9:47 AM

But yeah, the Supreme Court is set to rule on whether queer people deserve not to be discriminated against in employment, and they're set to rule 'no,' so, that'll be fun.

user206222

My manager & team are like, the epitome of passive queer rights advocates. Like, most people couch behind "I don't see anything wrong with that" as a way of pretending they don't have bigotry to deal with, right? But like, no.

user206222

When I told my manager I was trans he kind of shrugged and went, "okay, let me know if there's anything you need." And, meant it? So I'm gonna say I'm probably all right where I am, but still.

user206222

Just 'cause I'm all right doesn't mean the house isn't burning down.

10:17 AM

ok, heh, shall we discuss my Turtle?

You have a turtle?

I can't figure out what to do with his enclosure. He needs a larger one I feel. But right now he has a plastic tub for a pool too

Are they difficult pets?

Nah, really easy

rene

That enclosure is his.

10:18 AM

At least he is. He's a mexican wood turtle.

He's picky about food, but loves grapes, strawberries and bananas, so that's how we get the 'healthly' stuff into him, he's meant to eat greens but wont.

@djsmiley2k did you try to withhold desserts or no TV before bed?

rene

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

@IanKemp oH i don't think that's it, I too know what it's like to have the same discussions over and over again and in the end it's all pointless as well.

Nothing discussed here will have any noticeable effect anywhere else, I guess.

@Bart haha

He's also a very angry turtle :/

Like you put your hand near the edge of the enclosure and he's trying to bite your fingers off.

@Bart i try to withhold my pets from deserts

@IanKemp you didn't see that, I corrected it, it didn't happen, dammit!

10:21 AM

@Bart checkmate, atheists

I don't know why that word always takes me 2 tries. Almost as annoying as typing "priviate" instead of "private" on a regular basis ...

@Bart holy shit i do that too

Its ok 😁

at least i don't miss the "l" in "public"

:D

10:28 AM

Sigh. How much stealth advertising is done on SE sites?

@DavidA Nobody knows. Otherwise it wouldn't be stealth.

"LINUX G33NYUS" hahahaha no words.

Not sure if it's trying to be ironic or not.

202324

@djsmiley2k mmh?

@DavidA the crap never stops flowing

@202324 OP of the post the spam above was an answer to.

10:37 AM

What's amusing is I wrote a program that does exactly that (for my employer), but like the link posted, it's for Windows.

202324

@Bart 👌

shouldn't that question be closed anyways

@DavidA proper or badly bodged?

10:59 AM

@202324 Geenyus?

→ 38 messages moved to Trashcan

user384163

Can anyone here help me flag this away?

gone

user206222

🗑️

sigh

Science. it does not mean what you think it means.

11:06 AM

Being autistic does not mean any ambiguity is lost

I should know ...

@JourneymanGeek INCONCEIVABLE

user384163

I think that user is open trolling at this point

user384163

More of that

Nah, I don't think so. Richard is generally nice, but has a lot of ... problems with the current events

user384163

I just want to get away from them at this point

11:08 AM

@bruglesco Might be worth flagging down a TWP moderator either here or in the watercooler

user384163

@Magisch They are encouraging him. I'm good.

@bruglesco user has a bit of a reputation

user384163

I know

user384163

And after the nastiness they directed at me I cant call them "generally nice"

I don't want to read that comment thread do I

11:11 AM

no

Nothing good ever comes of comment threads

user384163

Anyway. I'm off to work. Thanks for helping make just a little bit of the hate vanish.

I feel that I ought to look at what's been happening in the CoC FAQ thread while I was asleep. But I don't want to read stuff that will make me upset or angry.

then don't

user206222

The self respect and self care not to read the comments, the good judgement not to read the comments....

On a positive note, all the keto-xxx spam is looking mighty palatable today in comparison :)

11:19 AM

OTOH, I do want to get a sense of the proportion of SE members who do not support making SE more inclusive for LGBTQ+ people. I know there are plenty who are unaccepting, but who are prepared to be civil if we don't push them too far. And then there are those who are hostile, and will either leave, or at best will only be civil to avoid punishment.

@PM2Ring and there will be those who intentionally pick fights

and such

Mandating tolerance is fine. Mandating acceptance is seen as troublesome.

bleh. acceptance usually includes a modicum of respect.

@JourneymanGeek Oh yes. And I guess it's kind of good that those people are coming out of the woodwork. It makes it easier to identify them & either discipline them, or ban them outright.

So does tolerance.

11:22 AM

@PM2Ring ...

and makes the place significantly more toxic in the meanwhile

and some of those folks may not leave

@DavidA apparently I need more coffee ...

nobody can mandate anyone's feelings. all we can mandate is actions that do not display disrespect

and it makes it significantly more unpleasant for the rest of us

probably not avoidable though

sooner or later we'll have to confront that reality

not confronting it doesn't poof it, it just hides it from most of our view

Not deliberately misgendering = tolerance. Affirming someone's identity = acceptance.

I think that's the basic line of reasoning being used.

11:24 AM

except that deliberately avoiding someone's pronouns ~= deliberate misgendering

No it's withholding acceptance without being intolerant.

except that it's discriminating and exclusionary behaviour

@JourneymanGeek Yes it does. But it's a bit like walking into the kitchen in the middle of the night, turning on the light, and seeing dozens of scurrying cockroaches. The light didn't cause the cockroaches, they were there all along. OTOH, it's less scary when the cockroaches aren't so visible...

I'm not saying it's the same, I'm saying that it's similar enough to warrant a similar moderation response

These aren't cockroaches. They're decent people who don't want to be compelled to take sides on divisive issues.

11:29 AM

Yay, I have my first negatively scored answer on MSO! I feel accomplished now :)

@DavidA Fair enough. My analogy is somewhat faulty. My impression is that the bulk of the members are tolerant, even accepting. But some most definitely are not, and for each one that openly expresses anti-LGBTQ+ sentiments there are several who remain anonymous but who happily upvote that stuff.

@Bart it happens. I got one downvoted yesterday for suggesting a data explorer query.

@DavidA it took me almost 9 years and 134 answers though.

@PM2Ring I wouldn't read that much into the votes. There's a good bit of "upvote anything against the company" sentiment going around.

@Magisch if there was any humour to be found in the last few weeks, for me it was in the shared anti-SO sentiments. "Yeah, they are terrible and evil and high fives all around" "Yeah, bad SO for not taking this stand earlier and being more vocal in support of us" "Wait what? I find them evil because of this nonsense stand!" "What are you both on about? They are terrible because they don't listen to us over the last 18 months"

11:38 AM

@DavidA My position is that we should be strongly encouraging people, not compelling them. And as I said in this room yesterday, we have to be careful to not expect (let alone demand) too much.

omg happy dance

I'm not a coder, some code I wrote at work to help me in a horrible task, is 99% working.

as in I could use it right now and it'd work.

\o/

@djsmiley2k that's how the journey begins.

18 hours ago, by PM 2Ring

@M.A.R. Some people prefer extremes. Some prefer compromises. Ideally, yes, it would be wonderful if everyone were happy to use each other's pronouns. But I don't think it's realistic, and forcing the extreme position is just asking for trouble. I'd be happy to have people agree to use singular they, or like Monica, write in a natural way where they can avoid singular they, if that's their preference. Asking conservative people to use neopronouns is asking for too much, and they will kick back.

@DavidA nod.... many times I've dipped my toes

written little things, maybe this time I'll keep going...

11:45 AM

There's a classic technique that politicians use to get a bill rejected. Feign support for the bill, but insist on adding extra features to it that sound like you're even more pro the bill than your opposition are. Then when time comes to vote on the bill it gets rejected because the whole package is too much for the majority to accept.

There's an example I read about years ago, from early 20th century USA. I did a Google search to find a ref, but I'm not so good at searching political stuff (compared to coding or science).

I'm pretty sure no one in the company really wants the new COC to fail

They might have overshot the mark a bit with what can be realistically enforced, but they seem determined to try and only time can tell

It just seems to do more harm than good at this point, but I get the sense that it was someone's project and that a certain moderator was eliminated because she was seen as an obstacle (not that she actually was).