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3:00 AM
@Aza I can imagine that it'd be a bit daunting to start work... I remember when I got hired here I was... a bit in awe.
@Catija How d'you mean, I'm very curious!
I mean... it depends on where ... right... like, I have friends who work at Google and I was always in awe of them because they must be magical... and for me, working here I love the sites and am in awe of the people who keep it running... they don't seem human.
... so to get hired seemed impossible how I was supposed to fit in with those magical people.
It takes... really great coworkers who welcome you with open arms and show you that you're wanted and welcome and accepted ... to really feel empowered to keep working.
I really get that feeling, honestly.
@Catija snort y'all are very human. That's what makes you great at the job 😁
3:04 AM
@JourneymanGeek I knew I could count on you to keep me grounded. ;P
@Catija The best CMs are. ;p
@Catija Someone has to do it ;p
Morning !
I gotta say it's, really nice to just chat and decompress, y'know?
And, mornin'!
3:07 AM
And don't forget, i've seen a lot of CM. Some great, some.... less so.
Never terrible ;p
great... updating an OS in the morning of a workday apparently is not a good idea...
@Aza :D It is! I'm glad to have the opportunity.
'dart' executable being blocked by Apple... :/
@Aza it is.
3:11 AM
Me, too, @Catija :)
And you, @JourneymanGeek :)
And Shog9, too, but if he is Gone I do not with to Summon him.
One does not simply summon the Shog ;p
no, you just say [things] and I watch
I mean... Hey!
3:14 AM
Oh, hey! I definitely don't need to brb to go break a chalk circle with my foot...
So, uh, what does the path back to look like, and how do we pivot to that?
What would a shog summon circle actually contain... Kraft Mac and Cheese, moonshine....
3:18 AM
also sausages
Homemade trip tip sausages? :D
@TravisJ This is the path back to calm, even if it doesn't like it.
A: Etiquette for thanking an editor

Shog9Send him a thank-you basket filled with bratwurst, sauerkraut, and beer. Editors love those.

@TravisJ Healing is the path to normalty
but sometimes it needs help
Was kind of hoping for something more upbeat
3:20 AM
It'll get worse before it gets better. My gut says we're not past the worst of it yet, but I think we're probably close.
And well, hopefully everyone learns what we did wrong along the way, and sorts it out
what do you say in a shog summon circle? rhymes?
@TravisJ That is upbeat.
summon the first 8 Shogs?
don't be discouraged folks. Every time someone's said it couldn't get any worse, it's gotten worse. Don't listen to those nay-sayers - it can always get worse.
3:21 AM
New guidelines are out, things are in place, the Stack's set to repair itself. All that's left is... the follow-up action, but that's telegraphed clearly at this point.
People won't like that, but people don't like a lot of things.
@Aza erf. I think there's a lot of broken glass and wreckage, a small cockroach infestation....
I don't like maraschino cherries. Can we just get rid of those? Like, as a concept?
@Shog9 I'm for this, to be honest.
3:22 AM
As are all right-thinking people
there's a thing called "SegmentFault"
wasn't that one of the proposed names for Stack Overflow?
Conceptually I agree, but we should probably go through some sort of trial period where other cherries are consumed on top of sundays and cocktails... just to be sure it is a sound theory in practice.
that's probably the best troll i've seen in awhile
@Shog9 those luridly coloured ones?
3:24 AM
hey... Jin toned down the colors after a while...
@TravisJ ah, there's these italian ones...
really good
I like sour cherries. We can use those.
I think that's what I'm talking about
the baking place down the road has them
The more tests the better.
@JourneymanGeek I mean, the underlying systematic problem remains, so it's always going to be bumpy. There are also open questions, which will come up later as a response to those systematic problems. The broken glass is easy, though. Cockroaches are... harder, but can be managed.
3:25 AM
just avoid the red tofu
@Aza there's multiple underlying systemic problems
with different people seeing different things ><
@JourneymanGeek yeeeah, I just kinda lump them together as "this thing has some Problems," but they can be broken down for sure
@JourneymanGeek or natto
@JourneymanGeek Please make some sense out of this splotch of ink.
@TravisJ red tofu... I'll tell you that story later
makes note in calendar
3:27 AM
@Aza So - for me, a pretty important problem is we have a community that's unhappy, fractured, and ...
erf. Its painful to say - kinda lacks a certain sense of something pulling them together
in a smaller community - Jeff was a great figurehead, and the CMs a bit later on
And fixing that would hopefully create folks with the... for lack of better word, moral authority, and connections to see and convince folks to help fix other problems
Jeff actually understood having standards
@StephanS Jeff was loud and visible. That's useful sometimes ;p
@Aza not saying the problems you talk about are "less" important
but they also need an underlying framework of folks to fix
then there's the whole issue of "broad appeal" vs quality
To give Jeff alot of credit he knew that communities only survive with new users but also that there should be strict guidelines
I don't think they have to live separately, but some of the assumptions made in building the original platform... haven't aged well. I think if you want the 10,000-foot view, that's the problem Stack's coming into conflict with.
@Aza oh they're linked
3:31 AM
Some deep assumptions about who capital-U Users are, coupled with some deep assumptions about what capital-V Voting means, coupled with...
A lot of work can (rightfully) go into fixing that, and no one effort to fix the problem should be discounted. They're all important.
that's a good point, and one that... I really hope doesn't get lost under all of this
We built this thing for, essentially, two large blog audiences a decade ago
And it worked pretty damn well for that. So well that we were able to stretch it out to cover a lot more people than it was really suited for.
But... It hit its limits a long time ago now. Most folks who've been watching closely know that.
So... What's to be done?
Close reasons.
eh. Yeah, but... No.
@Shog9 well - for a while, the solution seemed to let the communities run themselves for most part
3:33 AM
The individual exchanges should really have their own sets, but the amount of contribution doesn't exist enough to build them at each point.
But well - that kinda has its own issues
Take a step away from SO/SE for a moment, and think about some other bit of software with a similar lifespan.
And finding the folks who can take up the task, and keeping them engaged is hard
There aren't really all that many
@Shog9 well - I'd say facebook
3:34 AM
I mean, really there is only one common theme all the exchanges share... the set of close reasons. I think getting the community together to make another iteration on close reasons would take a long time which gives a common goal, be really productive, and drive in a direction that reduces friction for the overall userbase.
Google dosen't count. You'd be killing sites left right and center if you did
@JourneymanGeek Ok... You have bad choices, but fine. We'll go with Facebook.
Facebook was a pretty simple concept a decade or so ago
You got a page and you can put stuff on it
The demographic changes are always gonna be the hardest ones. Changes to voting, to posts, rethinking what it even means to "close" a post, the way users are baked in... are gonna be so, so much easier. Changes that make certain people want to stop participating, so the platform can appeal to a changing landscape, are always gonna be hard.
long running community sites? gaming has all of this beat
you can't even customize it that much. But you can garden connections to other people, and that makes up for a lot.
3:35 AM
how about ICC? chess server that has been running a community since.. oh gosh, the mid 90s at least
even Freenode is fading
"even"... ;-P
how about running a couple new designs for a Q&A site conceived in 2020, as timed experiments?
well I'm not the first person to call freenode a dying/dead platform, people have been doing that since the late 90s ;)
@JourneymanGeek Facebook today is nothing like that. In fact, Facebook isn't even close to the most compelling part of Facebook. All the other stuff Facebook has built on that connection graph (or.. bought and attached to it) is what makes it useful.
You can still "facebook", and lots of people do... But it's an increasingly shitty experience.
3:37 AM
"Increasingly shitty experience" ... hmm...
Meanwhile, FB is putting loads of energy into developing for the audience they have today, the folks who looked at what FB was good for and wanted more of that.
The folks who used it for community organizing and the like
The folks who used it to keep in touch
ok who here would want to be a developer for facebook
Who didn't particularly want or need this ever-expanding universe of spies selling them stuff in exactly the same space that Gramma was posting pics of the new nephew
(the spies are still there of course, but shhh)
Now, what's this mean for SO?
No need to be quiet, everyone knows ;)
3:40 AM
As Aza sez above, the key is figuring out which core mechanics are useful and which ones aren't... And which ones could be useful if they weren't so damn broken.
@Shog9 well - some would say that SO is kinda putting loads of energy into "future" audiences, and somewhat neglecting the audience that got them there.
And by "useful" I mean "to the audience who will actually use them"
But... a community without fresh users is a fading community
@user1306322 yeah
There are a ton of ways to get this wrong (and... we may well do that too)
3:41 AM
@JourneymanGeek - No shortage of new users... that's for sure
I heard leads get 500k+
But done right, it doesn't mean "randomly changing stuff & hoping for the best" - it means careful analysis of folks' needs.
I don't think facebook has the same core values as the SE community, or that facebook wants a certain high level of quality for its content on par with what SE strives for, so it's a very odd comparison
Y'know. Good ol' requirements gathering, prototyping, testing, iterating. Systems analysis and design.
The stuff that puts kids to sleep at night
3:42 AM
What are you supposed to do when a Developer Story has spam on it? Example: stackoverflow.com/users/story/8076628 (warning: NSFW)
so what you're saying is you want to test a new Q&A site, got it
ShogExchange 2020 :p
@user1306322 that's an interesting point for sure.
"Dearest Mommy," said my three-year-old, "I'd like some milk and an A/B test for sleep, tonight."
We talk about the community
@hichris123 ...that's a lotta pics...
3:43 AM
@Aza .... so choice of snack?
and into the eyes of the jackal I say...
I think SegmentFault is open source if you trust the code
@Shog9 Yep. Found by searching for unwanted comments on SO... not what I was expecting.
@Shog9 I do love a good systems analysis debate.. so I have to ask, if you could say in a single sentence so I can get on to perhaps more productive angles: why not look at updating the close reason set?
@hichris123 looks nuked.
@hichris123 small internal victory this year: got 'em to carve out a "looking at porn" exclusion in the internal CoC for folks whose job it is to look at stuff like this
...wait. Victory?
3:46 AM
@Shog9 depends on the person and the erm... content?
Also, I wonder what sort of role involves looking at porn for work... for science of course.
best part of this job is how I learn something new every day
like... anatomy
@JourneymanGeek ever seen what a facebook mod has to look at?
@TravisJ read horror stories
new question on meta.SE and looking at the title have questions just become parody of older questions.....
probably that sort of role... it seems mostly bad
3:47 AM
Well - there's a few things there
its content moderation
@TravisJ that should happen a little bit within a few weeks. Then more, in a few months. Then... Who knows?
That 'manner' of employment - through an outsourcing company, and possibly through a bodyshop is invariably high stress
Okay, kinda wondering now if anyone thought about the possibility of Dev Stories being spammy, there's plenty out there. stackoverflow.com/story/cuties4fun is another, if you can't tell from the username.
@Shog9 Oh, so it isn't just a flat out no, 0%? Epic.
The good thing about bodyshops is low standards.
the bad thing is... low standards
3:48 AM
Looking forward to it.
@hichris123 up-front? No. Since then? I've deleted thousands. If you come up with a good query, lemme know & I'll queue it up.
Although the Markov chain is pretty advanced it seems: "My lips and hot lips... make me not the same"
@hichris123 I did. Although, it also seems like kind of a waste to ruin or try to start a whole account just to take advantage of that.
Why not just make the dev story be at 200 rep?
@Shog9 Hm, gotcha. Disappointing that you're stuck with the task of manually doing it.
I'm not really
3:50 AM
I mean, really, are 1 rep users coming here, only creating a dev story, and then using the jobs interface?
But I do have this "delete lots of users" script I'm not using for anything else...
If so, then nevermind.
Yeah, the rep restriction would seem sensible. Although I suppose no one really finds these profiles unless they are looking for them.
IIRC, SOBotics has a script to track other parts of user profiles, but there's no API for dev story
if you can identify good heuristics in the normal bio/name/location, that makes this all a LOT easier
@Shog9 are community managers hired or volunteers?
3:52 AM
cool is it remote?
I hear it comes with a cool feature that allows you to walk around your place of dwelling yelling nonsensically from time to time.
best perk
that must be nice, New York is an expensive place to live
3:53 AM
good lord, yeah - I could not afford to live in NYC
We've had a few CMs in NYC, but... I have no idea how
@StephanS considering they need to deal with us ... they better get paid G
@Shog9 the first batch?
remember CHAOS?
@JourneymanGeek yeah but so do mods and .....
3:57 AM
I miss them a fair bit.
and then I think... One after that?
I not trying to make this into the bin but meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335050/… the more I read this the more I'm confused
why the disclaimer
nvm I get it's point now
so, on that note, see you all later ;)
At least it's Friday, and I have a deadline...
4:11 AM
oh my, I was waiting for Soros to come into play. My friends, we're no longer dealing with trolling it's evolved into sincere trolling.
I can neither nor deny there's a conspiracy of terriers on SE.
no terrier can get onto SE we have you protecting us
ninja'd shuriken'd before I wanted to refer to "contact us"...
@Shog Small favor: Can you fix the link in my comment here: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/334900/official-faq-on-gender-pronouns-and-code-of-conduct-changes#comment1099449_334900

Looks like it tries to jump to page 2, but the answer that it's under has been upvoted onto the 1st page - thereby breaking the link.
Oh yeah... Known bug.
4:23 AM
@StephanS See, that's the beauty of it... ;p
/posts/comments/<id> for reference
didn't meta.SO have a chat area?
I have no idea
4:33 AM
nvm I found it
Did it?
gets the lamp
I was thinking of one of those ones on the desk
yanno, like in the cop shows
4:53 AM
@StephanS it does?
chat.meta.stackoverflow redirects to this domain
@Stormblessed no I made a mistake I thought I found it
but it wasn't it
I really thought there was one
@RobertHarvey Ah yes
@Stormblessed That's because, pre-, this chat server used to be called Meta Stack Overflow Chat
Q: Posting a message "https://chat.stackoverflow.com" in chat shows a picture for Stack Overflow that links to the stackoverflow.com homepage

StormblessedLook here: I posted this message in Chat: https://chat.stackoverflow.com/ It oneboxed like if I had posted https://stackoverflow.com/ This doesn't happen with a link to https://ja.stackoverflow.com: so this can have exceptions. Testing in the sandbox, https://aaaa.stackoverflow....

here's a terrible post about a real bug
5:11 AM
was it deleted I'm so confused
5:44 AM
@StephanS Hi so confused...
5:56 AM
@JourneymanGeek why..... just why......
@JourneymanGeek yeah I have a question for you. you live in Singapore right?
is it illegal to eat on the bus
likewise with trains and train stations
6:00 AM
that's what I thought but I wanted to make sure about it
sometimes it's hard to understand how the law is applied in places that you don't live so I wanted to make sure that it was the case law.stackexchange.com/a/43713/24698
thank you
I did find a law about the trains
So its a request that makes it look like a rule...
@StephanS well the rule started with the traind
6:04 AM
It could be a rule I couldn't find
I'm used to searching US law lol
it was interesting to look up because I found laws about durian and places you can't have them (e.g. the bus)
have you eaten durian?
We're so used to don't this or we will fine you signs, even a request looks like a threat I guess
it is... interesting
is it like jackfruit
6:09 AM
is that the fruit that smells terrible but tastes ok?
Jackfruit is a lot firmer
durian is almost like custard
@Magisch It tastes glorious
like a custard, wow, it's hard to find in the US
It does not travel well
in malaysia, they actually wait for the fruit to drop so... the lifespan is short
the thais kinda time it so it ripens, but some say its not as good as tree ripened durians
there's probably someone that grows it somewhere near me
I'll have to find some
6:14 AM
also ... shucking it is a bit tricky
the pros wear thick gotten gloves and use very sharp knives
hydraulic press
You don't want to squash it
also we've never tried eating the seeds >_>
if it's anything like shucking a green coconut then I think I could do it
(jackfruit seeds are edible - just let them dry and remove the plasticy skin...)
@StephanS ...nothing alike
oh nvm
I heard about that
6:17 AM
I would suspect its slightly closer to...
cracking open a lobster?
if a lobster was a vegital morning star that smelt foul?
@JourneymanGeek ...That's not how I'd describe it. It's more like a melon mixed with onion
so you mean I can lob durian at people?
@Rob its super soft texture
We had three people sharing one, we didn't finish it :D
6:19 AM
@Magisch you would risk hurting yourself picking it up
@Magisch ...would you lob an onion at people? no wait, don't answer--
I don't know. The most exotic fruit I regularly eat is mango
and I like mango really firm and not when its ripe
@Aza I was making a wordplay on Journey's "like a lobster"
it didn't land I guess
@Magisch oh
Heh, exotic... we grow heaps of mangoes here
the "perfect" mango for me is... small...
6:20 AM
Doesn't make them any cheaper, though, unfortunately
I have a thing for jackfruit, 60lb usually lasts two weeks
there's a specific variety you can roll in your hand, and just.... suck it dry.
I have a large thing for broccoli. I put it in everything
also we have more than one variety of banana
whenever I'm eating a salad, an omlette, rice, anything where it could possibly fit, I put broccoli in it
6:22 AM
Well, at least it's a healthy 'addiction' :)
this conversation makes me hungry
there's an indian place in my town that makes the coconut milk broccoli curry of the gods
it's way too good to eat regularly, you'll dislike anything else
@DavidA there's a whole lot of content that is far from respectful.
oh, not this again, we were having a nice conversation about food
@StephanS I hear ya
6:28 AM
@Magisch I have that same issue with Thai food, I think it's rice noodle soup, it's perfect
@StephanS "nice"? Broccoli...
you don't like Broccoli
every chat room I'm entering lately is making me hungry
head over to python chatroom and they'll fix you up a salad
Yvette is that you? are you undercover here?
6:46 AM
@StephanS I put my name back, as I've been accused of hiding. And I'm tired of being insulted.
@user3956566. I'm sorry, I didn't mean it like that
@StephanS oh you didn't at all. There's been a lot of snide remarks and the last one was the straw that broke the camel's back and it wasn't yours
I gotta get out of chat. Later \o
like many weeks later.
@user3956566. I'm going to get some rest, but I want to said I enjoy the videos you put out they're great. Anyways best of luck
6:56 AM
@StephanS thanks. I'll see you soon enough and I'll continue with videos :)

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