Tavern on the Meta

12:07 AM

@MarkAmery It was an useful question. I posted it there (along with Catija's answer): meta.stackexchange.com/a/335024/242059

George Stocker

@Sklivvz To be perfectly clear: I'm sure all sides want SO to be 'welcoming' to all, but the optics are if you're against the CoC change, you're against wanting SO to be welcoming to all.

(it is what is, regardless of what I or you want it to be)

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker more that a COC change alone does very little

Matt Giltaji

COC enforcement is the important thing

Sklivvz

@GeorgeStocker what you said makes absolutely no sense to me. The old CoC was already sufficient to cover misgendering.

George Stocker

@JourneymanGeek For it 'doing very little' it seems to have an outsized reaction.

Journeyman Geek

12:17 AM

@GeorgeStocker well - what's the reaction to?

Matt Giltaji

@Sklivvz apparently not, or it wouldn't have been necessary to change it

Sklivvz

Well, SE said so themselves

Journeyman Geek

And what is the result of the reaction?

Sklivvz

The wrong bit is thinking the CoC does anything beyond giving us the stick

Journeyman Geek

If you change the COC and it ends up being more hostile...

@Sklivvz and we can't be everywhere

Sklivvz

12:19 AM

the attitude that "if we force transphobes to shut up, then our community will be more friendly" is preposterous

it's basically telling our trans community something which is very close to a lie

the reality is that there is a lot of transphobia, and we need to address that, but the CoC (the stick) is not the right tool

so as a mod, I refuse to pretend to care about transphobia, because I actually care

my 2c.

Journeyman Geek

@Sklivvz I actually do care - but erf

in some ways this is making things harder not easier

user384163

Then how do you address transphobia?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

3 hours ago, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

delv-pls one-more-delete-vote-needed 20k+ https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/334997/r-kendall-function-error-in-r

Journeyman Geek

@bruglesco honestly? Its just not nice

We deal with the user with minimal fuss and appropriate amounts of force.

Sklivvz

@bruglesco In many ways, many of which require talking to people like they are people and not monsters, whether they are trans or transphobes

Journeyman Geek

12:24 AM

I don't need a COC to deal with it. I tell them its inappropriate, and if they don't listen, I show them the door

2

Sklivvz

Meh, sometimes people don't even understand the concept @JourneymanGeek

user384163

@Sklivvz that's important. Once you call someone a bigot they become defensive. Not everyone carries malice even when they are acting harmful.

Journeyman Geek

@Sklivvz true - but its a simple matter of respecting another user

Sklivvz

An old granma can be transphobic because she doesn't know better. That makes her ignorant, not evil.

Journeyman Geek

@Sklivvz I've always tried to take a very human approach to it

Sklivvz

12:26 AM

If you feel comfortable kicking off grandmothers because they don't conform to your vision of inclusivity, go ahead. I think I am not comfortable with that

user384163

@JourneymanGeek But many people aren't dealing with it. Although I don't suspect the new rules will get enforced by those people either.

Journeyman Geek

so point out it cause hurt people, and that all the folks who share a space matter.

@bruglesco exactly

hmm

Matt Giltaji

@bruglesco if the mods don't want to enforce the rules, change the rules or change the mods

Journeyman Geek

@MattGiltaji its not always won't

it can be can't

user384163

But how do you protect people in the mean time. While you are educating people?

Sklivvz

12:27 AM

@bruglesco the problem is not mindlessly enforcing the rules

Journeyman Geek

@bruglesco I've not had a problem in the rooms I've had with someone more than once

user384163

@Sklivvz The problem is sometimes not even seeing the problem

Journeyman Geek

Admittedly once is bad enough

but I can't read minds

@bruglesco and that's kinda something that needs fixing

Matt Giltaji

@bruglesco yeah a lot of this flies under the radar unless you are specifically familiar with it

Journeyman Geek

but that's more a matter of "broader" working with the community than just changing the COC

Sklivvz

12:28 AM

@bruglesco Well, that is true, but it's true with all kinds of issues

user384163

@Sklivvz Indeed. This is just the one we are talking about today

Journeyman Geek

Generally on my site - I rely on being acessible to find out about many issues

Sklivvz

The problem is nuanced, which is why a blunt CoC will either be unenforceable or just used in extreme cases

The problem was, and still is, the 99% of cases which are not best solved by kicking someone off the network

user1306322

@JourneymanGeek you say "At no point was removing this discussed as far as I remember." -- discussed where? in public or during the planned private discussion with all the mods in TL?

Journeyman Geek

Yes

user1306322

12:38 AM

...

(inclusive yes? it was an either or question, so I'm not sure if you made a joke or what)

Matt Giltaji

i don't think there's a lot of nuance here. there's a lot of rules lawyering for people who do not wish to change their behavior and seeking hypotheticals for when it would be ok to misgender someone

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 if it was not discussed at all... it was not discussed at all

user1306322

I see

@MattGiltaji in the spirit of assuming good intent, I don't think people are "seeking hypotheticals for when it would be ok to misgender someone", and I'm not being sarcastic or making a joke about this, I'm being honest here, I don't expect an average user to be a troll here

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

In other news...I reached 10k rep earned this calendar year

Journeyman Geek

I suspect in 99% of situations on most sites, it won't matter

And more so say on chat than main

user206222

1:12 AM

Abusive flags please: meta.stackexchange.com/a/335036/206222

user206222

Who the hell upvoted that? Gone now, anyway.

user1306322

Unionhawk brings up an interesting Wikipedia page en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Call_a_spade_a_spade which links to a much longer article en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_call_a_spade_a_spade and I have to wonder if we can borrow and adapt some such article from Wikipedia to solve the current issues we're having, maybe as a replacement for the current CoC, or as a source of inspiration for some edits/clarifications/simplifications

Sklivvz

Btw one of the worst bits is that we should not use language that may offend based on religion

So about 10% of the skeptics site is already in violation, like everything on evolution, big bang, tectonics...

Bryan Krause

I read that as referring to offending based on an individuals' religious identity, not referring to questioning beliefs held by a religion

(that's also not a new change to the CoC; the language about religion is unchanged)

Journeyman Geek

1:31 AM

@Aza erf

user206222

It's sure not the worst thing I've seen upvoted in the last week, but man, it's up there.

202324

@Aza not me this time

hichris123

The longer this saga goes on, the less faith I have in humanity to be decent people...

Shog9

@Sklivvz cough... That bit was already there, since last summer.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza :/

Shog9

1:37 AM

no change at all since ~8/18

Journeyman Geek

good intentions sometimes are not good enough :/

and its a circus

@Shog9 ... I'm just as guilty but I'm starting to think people don't critically read the COC for some reason

Shog9

hey, I'm guilty too

Journeyman Geek

Just noticed something important to me (and others) was missing ;p

Shog9

Gravity Kills - Guilty

►

Bryan Krause

Hello 1990s

user206222

1:39 AM

@JourneymanGeek Unfortunately, not everyone here has good intentions and not everyone is acting in good faith.

hichris123

I wish people would stop trying to be rule lawyers. It's pretty clear what the intent of the change is; I suppose the Monica situation makes it more murky but it's really just "try your best."

2

Journeyman Geek

@Aza possibly but those we can deal with.

@hichris123 I think that's part of it actually

Shog9

TBF, when you kick off your campaign to achieve good-faith results with a really unpopular action, it sorta pours a bucket of icewater on the whole endeavor

3

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 exactly

Shog9

I mean. Acknowledging the elephant in the room and all.

user206222

1:41 AM

@JourneymanGeek I know of one case where a person posted an absolute screed against trans people, was flagged down by a CM, and... is still around, drumming up transphobia. It's unfortunate, but Meta essentially doesn't have mods, and CMs can't handle it all -- especially when that could easily be perceived as conflict-of-interest.

Shog9

doesn't have to end that way, but... Ain't gonna lie, we sorta shot ourselves in the foot, and then shot a few other feet just to be safe.l

Journeyman Geek

@Aza ... erf

I know what you mean :/

user206222

Stings that they're an ex/moderator, too.

Journeyman Geek

Oh

not who I was thinking of

user206222

there've been multiple posts that fit my description

Journeyman Geek

1:41 AM

@Aza erf. This is difficult for me

user384163

Yeah theres more than one

Shog9

...you thought there was only one person, ha ha ha...*

hichris123

@Shog9 Fair. It would just be nice if people could separate the two events... and maybe take a step back from the keyboard.

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 Oh I just rememebered the most recent one

Shog9

Look: let's be clear - there's a heck of a lot of shit around.

And LOTS of people willing to sling more

Journeyman Geek

1:42 AM

@Shog9 there is

and probably a lot more than there was

Cesar M

@Aza One of those events... I'm dealing with it. Should be over shortly.

Shog9

I donno. I've spent a decade looking at shit every day, I've never felt like we had a lack of it.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza I don't really want to go back to being a MSE moderator until I'm sure I can do my job

user206222

@CesarM Sincerely appreciated, and thank you for your work.

Journeyman Geek

and parts of it are still murky

Cesar M

1:43 AM

Feel free to flag anyone still "drumming up transphobia" or ping me to take a look

Shortly may realistically be in a few days, sadly. But on it.

Shog9

Point is: if we want stuff to be better, we gotta make a conscious effort. It isn't going to just magically improve with MOAR SUSPENSIONS or MOAR RULES.

If you don't start each conversation with, "how can I find a way to help folks feel like they can be a part of this"... Then they won't.

Journeyman Geek

I'm happy to give folks an almighty thump for being... uhm (insert SE unfriendly phrase here) but - at the same time, I'd like the ability to ask folks to put down the gun they are pointing at their feet...

@Shog9 well you seem to get it >_>

Shog9

wise-guy, eh

;-P

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 hardly

Pascal

@Shog9 You don't have to start every conversation with trying to make people feel like they can be a part. Just don't drive the ones you already have away with frankly stupid, stupid, stupid behavior.

Shog9

1:45 AM

That sounds harder

Journeyman Geek

@Pascal you need to get folks to buy into change to make change

hichris123

@Shog9 Maybe that could start with finding the low-hanging fruit. Obviously that doesn't change current behavior, but I can still find examples of not very nice "jokes" that have stayed around for years.

Shog9

See, if folks had just listened to me in '08, there would be no humor anywhere on the network.

or humour

Journeyman Geek

I can't order people to be nice. Or better yet, beat it into them

Pascal

@JourneymanGeek Agreed. But you don't do that by the heavy-handed approach we've seen unfold here in the last few days.

Journeyman Geek

1:47 AM

@Pascal and that's a significant issue I have

user206222

@Shog9 The way it always should have been. We're a Q&A information repository, after all. Not a family circus, or a [mutters] blog post. No pronouns, no jokes. I think that's fair. ;)

Shog9

or bodily fluids, which I'm told the ancients called "humors". Surely a network not drenched in bodily fluids is a goal we can all share!

Journeyman Geek

And honestly - its pretty painful when folks you know are better than that ... well, don't act that way cause people are just so keyed up.

@Aza eh, I use humour as a teaching tool in my answers.

hichris123

@Shog9 Too many years too late. ;) But for what I'm referring to, see stackoverflow.com/questions/919128/… (now deleted). That... really didn't need to stay around this long.

Journeyman Geek

Sometimes even when not high as a kite.

user206222

1:48 AM

@JourneymanGeek Oh, dw, I was being a li'l facetious

Journeyman Geek

@Aza ... so humour?

user206222

[snrt] yes

user384163

My question is: How do you engage with people so that they actually listen? Because shouting at them doesn't help them become receptive to your message. And while there are many people who will resist change to the bitter end, many more would embrace it if given the chance to do it with patience.

Kevin B

i mean... for the avg user this change isn't a change

user1306322

@bruglesco which people do you want to hear you?

Kevin B

1:52 AM

why do they need to know?

Journeyman Geek

@bruglesco You be an example. You act with patience and care and make sure you're a voice worth listening to.

Then if someone still does it... you obliterate them.

user1306322

approach depends on the target audience

Journeyman Geek

Well not literally - but if asking nicely dosen't work, its then worth using more pointed methods.

202324

@bruglesco swinging the ban hammer.

Journeyman Geek

But personal relationships don't really scale that well, nor does folks respecting you.

@202324 suspending someone is, and should be a last resort

It is necessary at times of course

user206222

1:54 AM

I mean, we're definitely running low on the 'good faith' side of things. How long can people advocate for this stuff before we just say, 'sorry, I don't believe you're trying to learn'? It's not a straightforward issue, but it always warrants eventual action.

user384163

@202324 yeah that has not made this conversation go smoother so far

Journeyman Geek

but one does not glory in punitive action

user245382

I'd say that people will only listen if they want to listen. Nothing you can do will force them to listen

Journeyman Geek

It is necessary in some cases, but best used in moderation (no pun intended) and with a clear goal in mind.

202324

@Houseman same I write.

user384163

1:55 AM

I for one ran out of patience very early

Journeyman Geek

@bruglesco unfortunately one of the privileges I have had in my life is... I'm a little too patient.

user206222

I've had people explain gender poorly to me to defend an overtly deleterious view, and refuse / refute / force me to defend correction on the topic. At that point, it's clear someone just has that harmful view, and is inventing an idea of "gender" around it to defend their use of it. This is pretty common on Stack Exchange, right now.

Journeyman Geek

Comes from being an impulsive, hotheaded idiot when i was younger

user384163

And that's not a good thing. But the more combative the discourse gets the less anyone wants to listen to us

hichris123

And then there's questions like this, that somehow (even though they're off-topic) end up floating around and continue to promote stereotyping.

Scott Hannen

1:56 AM

I'm optimistic about people, and trusting. That's burned me a few times in my life, but I don't think I'm going to change.

user1306322

I suppose that's why we ended up here

Journeyman Geek

@Aza erf

user1306322

@Aza I have a hard time imagining examples because they usually get deleted before I can see them and I don't have the rep to see deleted posts, but what normally happens to similar posts where the topic discussed is something else?

and I don't know if there is a comparable topic but maybe there is

user206222

Depends on where you are. I don't normally walk in circles with this much overt or nascent transphobia, for pretty obvious reasons. They're generally either already good, or I have some direct and meaningful ability to reshape them.

user206222

But I do have a fair bit of experience, anyway. What kind of context are you interested in?

user206222

2:01 AM

@user1306322 Also, a lot of them are still around. Some seriously harmful ideas about sex, gender, etc. are up and popular on MSE, right now.

user1306322

well, I mean, for a crude example, if someone talks about how code works, and they have their idea that some methods do this and that, although documentation clearly states otherwise, or nobody in the real world uses those methods like that, but this person is oh so convinced about their way of doing things, what happens to their posts?

I realize this is an impersonal example not dealing with human nature but I just can't think of one

Journeyman Geek

@Aza Actually feels like there's a lot more than before

user206222

@user1306322 On Stack Exchange? They're downvoted by a large body of experts. However, in this case, the experts are in the numerical minority, so... they're upvoted.

Cesar M

@Aza Please flag those

user206222

@JourneymanGeek There are. Bad ideas about sex and gender are very insidious. You can remove the worst of them, but the ones that are just on the cusp stick around. So the next iteration is worse, harder to spot, more insidious, fulfills the same role.

Cesar M

2:04 AM

and/or ping me in the chat there

user206222

@CesarM I will do this in the future.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza erf. and... well... fixing that...

user206222

Not sure I'm quite willing to wade back in and find them, right now, but if I see 'em I'll flag 'em.

Cesar M

sounds good

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Can't be done within the voting system; always has to be done on a human level. On this issue, the experts will always be a permanent numerical minority of voters.

Journeyman Geek

2:06 AM

@Aza yeah

And some serious mindfulness :/

Catija

We're trying to keep on top of it but there's been so much content created over the last week or two that finding it all ... it's hard. Everything turns into a blur. :)

Journeyman Geek

:/

user206222

I get that, I really do. That's part of it, for me, honestly. I see something that's bad, and I don't even think to flag it -- I've seen it around so often, anyway. Normalization affects everyone. :(

Journeyman Geek

Ya

and we can't see everything

I can normally keep on top of going ons on meta and...

I'm overwhelmed

I mean, not just in terms of feels

just quantity

user245382

Thank you for your service

user1306322

2:10 AM

one part of this whole problem I've noticed is that offensive comment many allude to is often removed and those of us who are not well educated in this topic don't have any examples to analyze and figure out what's wrong about it if it's not obvious, like as you say, just on the cusp. I don't know how to go about collecting such examples in a good way that will lead to more good than bad, for those of us willing to learn. Maybe not on this site even.

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 there's a good reason these things need to go, and fast.

Catija

@Aza Yeah, Most of the CMs were mods or have done a lot of time with mod tools... but sometimes we'll see someone complaining about how rude a statement is and we'll see it and ... not "get it"... because, compared to the carp we've seen... it's nice. :/

user384163

@user1306322 Reddit has plenty of examples.

HDE 226868

Those carp, always causing trouble. . .

user1306322

I know, but it's kinda like youtube removing historical videos about world wars because you can't show violence. I can spot obvious examples, but some nuanced ones, I might not even be able to recognize.

maybe this isn't something that can be done in a way that creates more good than bad, which is understandable

Catija

2:13 AM

@HDE226868 You've seen a lot of it with me. :D

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 Only that these things rarely have redeeming value.

and I'd rather have these things gone before they hurt someone

user384163

What's the stance on offensive material in profiles?

user206222

@Catija Deep empathy for that, honestly. Especially now.

user206222

@bruglesco Flag one of the user's posts.

Journeyman Geek

@bruglesco You have some freedom over it sure

user206222

2:13 AM

Profiles are a place for self-expression, but not without limit.

Journeyman Geek

but if you think something is an issue - always fine to let a mod to look at it

Catija

Use the custom flag and point us at the profile and we'll clear it.

Journeyman Geek

and if a mod has no idea, well...

202324

@bruglesco not ten posts, like me, or you'll get suspended ;)

HDE 226868

@Catija Yes! :D My goodness. I could write a book. . .

user384163

2:14 AM

So this is probably excessive?

Catija

@Aza I really appreciate you being here. <3

user206222

@202324 I feel like I need context for this

Journeyman Geek

@202324 one flag a thing that needs to be handled

user245382

hey, that's the one with the avatar!

Catija

@Aza They flagged ten posts with the same content and got a suspension on one of the sites.

Journeyman Geek

2:15 AM

@djsmiley2k :/dude. You are causing me so much damned grief.

:(

user384163

Sorry

Journeyman Geek

You should fix that silly pronoun thing please. It makes me look bad.

user206222

@Catija <3 I know it's hard, but these are growing pains. It'll get worse before it gets better, but I sincerely appreciate y'all holding the line like you are.

Journeyman Geek

@bruglesco he's a good chap. I'll see what I can do to get it fixed.

HDE 226868

@Aza I'll echo Catija - Hat-tip to you for being here right now. Through all of this. In a place that's caused you a good deal of pain at times.

Not sure I could have done it, if I was in your shoes.

0_o That killed the conversation.

user384163

2:20 AM

@HDE226868 I'm just glad it wasn't me this time. I've had that effect a lot lately :[

user206222

Oh, I was just tabbed out, sorry! And, thanks, sincerely. I wish there were more I could do, aside from just... being loud and taking up space to prove I'm here.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza that's about all anyone can do

user384163

@Aza When just existing can put a target on you, it means a lot.

user206222

<3 you all, we'll make it through

user384163

Thank you for that. Your visibility means a lot to people like me who sometimes wish they were still hidden.

Shog9

2:21 AM

So, I've been looking for a solid metric for "the level of death in SE". It can't be the answer rate, or the # of high-rep users deleting their accounts. Those are too depressing. I've decided to pin it thusly: if ever the internal Community Manager chatroom has more activity than The Tavern, we're officially dying.

6

...we came within a few dozen messages last week. But this room has rallied, and I think we're safe now.

Journeyman Geek

0_0

Shog9

GOOD JOB, EVERYONE!

user206222

@bruglesco Aw, hell. If there's ever anything I can do, even if it's just to hang out and chat on Discord or something, let me know, yeah?

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 the tavern is usually quieter than this though

Shog9

shhhh

Catija

2:23 AM

@Shog9 And we were moved to Slack

SHHHHHHH

@Catija :(

We're fighting it.

...y'all are kinda spoiling my new metric. Why you gotta be that way?

user206222

@Shog9 If you're ever worried about the network dying, just roll a d20 and call a random chat member a nitwit, that'll spark discussion ;)

Catija

2:23 AM

We really should let Shog have some light.

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 cause we love you.

Shog9

I hate you all so very, very much. You should know that. You mean that much to me.

user245382

aww, you're just saying that because you get paid to

Shog9

damn straight

Catija

:(

user1306322

2:25 AM

u guys get paid?!?

Journeyman Geek

@Houseman I'm sure its from the bottom of his heart. Which is probably in a mason jar somewhere.

@user1306322 the CMs do, sure

but then, they need to deal with us...

Catija

@JourneymanGeek Full of moonshine.

Journeyman Geek

Shog's very peculiar ;p

Catija

If you ever want to hide something from him, put it in the bottom of a bottle of Tequila.

user206222

@Catija My brain went to "shining like the moon in the sky, pure and beautiful," and then I realized you meant drunk.

Journeyman Geek

2:26 AM

@Aza when one is drunk enough, presumably....

Catija

I mean the kind of booze but that works, too.

Shog9

You know, everyone loves remote work, and loves to talk up its benefits. But there's one thing folks too often ignore, and I believe it is THE BIGGEST benefit:

I walk two steps and hit a button, and my co-workers can't see OR hear me yelling at them.

I've gone off on folks in every job I've ever had, but this is the only one where I've been able to do so on the sly. HUGE benefit right there.

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 oh man

I've had people go off on me, subtextually on whatsapp on this job

I'm glad to say my replacement is apparently worse than me and no one has complained.

(also erf. I hate the use of whatsapp here but... ehhh)

Shog9

that does sound vaguely creepy

I'm sorry

Nobody should be subject to that sort of working conditions

Catija

No need to lie, @Shog9 Most of the time you don't need to walk anywhere.

Journeyman Geek

2:28 AM

@Shog9 well until I find something better - It pays the bills.

Shog9

@Catija true, but I do anyway. I really have a lot of trouble standing still

Journeyman Geek

@Catija a lot of IT folks not in an office... pace

Shog9

It's... Uh, kind of a wonder I ever held down an office job, looking back.

user1306322

yea it's not healthy sitting all day, doctors recommend taking frequent walks around the office to maintain health

Journeyman Geek

Also since I mostly do vaguely desktopish stuff

Catija

2:29 AM

@JourneymanGeek Not just IT people... I spend most of calls walking around my house.

Kevin B

i make a point to stand up once an hour... but it's easy to forget when you're buried in a problem

Journeyman Geek

@Catija You know where my current worksite is right?

so... there's a light rail between 2 places I got work in

user1306322

@KevinB drink a loooot of tea, you'll have to stand up frequently

Journeyman Geek

I'd rather walk than take the train ;p

Kevin B

eh, i do, :p

Catija

2:30 AM

That's a healthy choice.

user1306322

hydration!

Kevin B

2 cups of coffee, tall glass of tea at lunch, then water throughout the rest

Catija

Also, now I have stairs, so I may spend a lot of time walking up and down the stairs... if I had a square, I'd be marching up and down the square.

Journeyman Geek

@Catija I was also stressed XD

Catija

Was?

Journeyman Geek

2:31 AM

Oh

specific stress.

not what I think you were thinking of

Catija

I wasn't thinking of anything specific... I just wasn't sure you were past the stress yet. :P

Journeyman Geek

(system provided by another vendor is crap, we were running under capasity, I had no idea what I was doing, boss was yelling at me for something I couldn't fix)

@Catija multiple sources of stress ;p

Dog's better, though he needs a tooth yanked, work, here...

I mean, least I have the option of walking away from SE a while.

user1306322

you can walk away from work also, say something urgent came up and you have to leave this instant, and it won't be a lie broadly speaking

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

There are jobs where if you don't show up to work one day you're fired.

user1306322

no, I mean, say you gotta pee reeeeeeeeeeal bad

user245382

2:35 AM

On that note, I'm planning to move somewhere cheaper and go from full-time to part-time. I hope to have less stress.

user1306322

just spend the 10-15 minutes coming to your senses in privacy

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 I mean yanno. Just take a break

user1306322

yea, and depending on the severity of the situation turn it into a long "poop" break (actually just composing yourself and heaving a good long breather alone)

user206222

There's a term at my company called "sabbatiquit" and it cracks me up every time I hear it.

Catija

HAHAHA

Journeyman Geek

2:38 AM

Eh. Sometimes stuff needs to be done now or 5 minutes ago

And you're overwhelmed

Catija

That seems like it's in the same category as "voluntold".

Journeyman Geek

Also some stress is cumilative

user1306322

when workers can be overstressed and become unable to do anything anymore, losing some 5 minutes might be a necessary loss, if you're a smart boss you know that, if not, prepare for some lost revenue I guess :p

user206222

@Catija Oh it absolutely is! I also hear 'voluntold' occasionally, but that's just because we kind of end up... each responsible for a lot, here.

Journeyman Geek

There's a bunch of stuff piled up that needs dealing with and more than I like is on me

user206222

2:39 AM

So you kinda get boxed in with, "well I own this now."

Journeyman Geek

@Aza This is basically my company.

They pick up random small things that are not 'ours' to keep the customer happy and messily gets dumped on us.

And Singapore is very management by threatening posturing

Which is toxic as heck but....

user206222

Owwww. I get that to some extent, though usually 'customer' means from one group to another group within the same org, for us. But threatening management sounds, very difficult.

Journeyman Geek

Well and lots of wierd little things

It is.

@Aza Uhm so... I work for one company... Which outsourced me to another company which has a contract for a project for the government

The company that pays my paycheck just takes their cut and that's it

Catija

@Aza :( Sounds like you're understaffed...

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Oh, jeez. Certain companies in my industry do that (we're also a largely govt-contracted org), so I get that, though my company operates a little differently.

user206222

2:49 AM

@Catija A little bit, but yes and no, I think. We're pretty close to exactly staffed, on the engineering side. So when someone leaves, it's always felt, and creates a hole. Training someone new takes time. The flipside is, there's never a dull moment. I appreciate it for what it is, but it does get stressful sometimes.

Journeyman Geek

And the technology we use is.... uhm

The skills don't transfer well

user206222

It also means my job responsibilities are currently a weird mix of: develop very speculative ML model(s); and (upcoming) be responsible for two parts of a rather unrelated hardware development process.

Catija

@Aza Is the turnover bad?

user206222

@Catija It follows a bathtub curve, I think. We see pretty high turnover in the first year (sort of the "do you fit the work style?" period), but if you make it past that you're basically here as long as you want.

user206222

...I probably should have used a graphic that doesn't call my departed coworkers "failures," but hey, you get the point.

Catija

2:54 AM

The "infant mortality" was actually what caught my eye. :(

My 11-month-old fell a bit earlier and hit his mouth his gums were bleeding. Scared the crud out of me.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza Often it's not the workers who fail 😁

user206222

@Catija Oh, jeez, that's not good. Doing okay, though?

Catija

He was toddling around and climbing over stuff before he fell asleep, so I think he's fine.

user206222

Glad to hear it. Must've been real fear-inducing, for sure.

user206222

But yeah, there's definitely a cultural component of "don't get too attached to your new coworker friend," which is not ideal for (even good-fit) newcomers, I think. It pushes people to be extremely independent in their learning, which is... at least honest, if nothing else.

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