@Sklivvz To be perfectly clear: I'm sure all sides want SO to be 'welcoming' to all, but the optics are if you're against the CoC change, you're against wanting SO to be welcoming to all.

(it is what is, regardless of what I or you want it to be)

@GeorgeStocker more that a COC change alone does very little

COC enforcement is the important thing

@GeorgeStocker what you said makes absolutely no sense to me. The old CoC was already sufficient to cover misgendering.

@JourneymanGeek For it 'doing very little' it seems to have an outsized reaction.

@GeorgeStocker well - what's the reaction to?

@Sklivvz apparently not, or it wouldn't have been necessary to change it

Well, SE said so themselves

And what is the result of the reaction?

The wrong bit is thinking the CoC does anything beyond giving us the stick

If you change the COC and it ends up being more hostile...

@Sklivvz and we can't be everywhere

the attitude that "if we force transphobes to shut up, then our community will be more friendly" is preposterous

it's basically telling our trans community something which is very close to a lie

the reality is that there is a lot of transphobia, and we need to address that, but the CoC (the stick) is not the right tool

so as a mod, I refuse to pretend to care about transphobia, because I actually care

my 2c.

@Sklivvz I actually do care - but erf

in some ways this is making things harder not easier

@bruglesco honestly? Its just not nice

We deal with the user with minimal fuss and appropriate amounts of force.

@bruglesco In many ways, many of which require talking to people like they are people and not monsters, whether they are trans or transphobes

I don't need a COC to deal with it. I tell them its inappropriate, and if they don't listen, I show them the door

Meh, sometimes people don't even understand the concept @JourneymanGeek

@Sklivvz true - but its a simple matter of respecting another user

An old granma can be transphobic because she doesn't know better. That makes her ignorant, not evil.

@Sklivvz I've always tried to take a very human approach to it

If you feel comfortable kicking off grandmothers because they don't conform to your vision of inclusivity, go ahead. I think I am not comfortable with that

so point out it cause hurt people, and that all the folks who share a space matter.

@bruglesco exactly

hmm

@bruglesco if the mods don't want to enforce the rules, change the rules or change the mods

@MattGiltaji its not always won't

it can be can't

@bruglesco the problem is not mindlessly enforcing the rules

@bruglesco I've not had a problem in the rooms I've had with someone more than once

Admittedly once is bad enough

but I can't read minds

@bruglesco and that's kinda something that needs fixing

@bruglesco yeah a lot of this flies under the radar unless you are specifically familiar with it

but that's more a matter of "broader" working with the community than just changing the COC

@bruglesco Well, that is true, but it's true with all kinds of issues

Generally on my site - I rely on being acessible to find out about many issues

The problem is nuanced, which is why a blunt CoC will either be unenforceable or just used in extreme cases

The problem was, and still is, the 99% of cases which are not best solved by kicking someone off the network

@JourneymanGeek you say "At no point was removing this discussed as far as I remember." -- discussed where? in public or during the planned private discussion with all the mods in TL?

Yes

...

(inclusive yes? it was an either or question, so I'm not sure if you made a joke or what)

i don't think there's a lot of nuance here. there's a lot of rules lawyering for people who do not wish to change their behavior and seeking hypotheticals for when it would be ok to misgender someone

@user1306322 if it was not discussed at all... it was not discussed at all

I see

@MattGiltaji in the spirit of assuming good intent, I don't think people are "seeking hypotheticals for when it would be ok to misgender someone", and I'm not being sarcastic or making a joke about this, I'm being honest here, I don't expect an average user to be a troll here

In other news...I reached 10k rep earned this calendar year

I suspect in 99% of situations on most sites, it won't matter

And more so say on chat than main

Unionhawk brings up an interesting Wikipedia page en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Call_a_spade_a_spade which links to a much longer article en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_call_a_spade_a_spade and I have to wonder if we can borrow and adapt some such article from Wikipedia to solve the current issues we're having, maybe as a replacement for the current CoC, or as a source of inspiration for some edits/clarifications/simplifications

Btw one of the worst bits is that we should not use language that may offend based on religion

So about 10% of the skeptics site is already in violation, like everything on evolution, big bang, tectonics...

I read that as referring to offending based on an individuals' religious identity, not referring to questioning beliefs held by a religion

(that's also not a new change to the CoC; the language about religion is unchanged)

@Aza erf

@Aza not me this time

The longer this saga goes on, the less faith I have in humanity to be decent people...

@Sklivvz cough... That bit was already there, since last summer.

@Aza :/

no change at all since ~8/18

good intentions sometimes are not good enough :/

and its a circus

@Shog9 ... I'm just as guilty but I'm starting to think people don't critically read the COC for some reason

hey, I'm guilty too

Just noticed something important to me (and others) was missing ;p

Hello 1990s

I wish people would stop trying to be rule lawyers. It's pretty clear what the intent of the change is; I suppose the Monica situation makes it more murky but it's really just "try your best."

@Aza possibly but those we can deal with.

@hichris123 I think that's part of it actually

TBF, when you kick off your campaign to achieve good-faith results with a really unpopular action, it sorta pours a bucket of icewater on the whole endeavor

@Shog9 exactly

I mean. Acknowledging the elephant in the room and all.

doesn't have to end that way, but... Ain't gonna lie, we sorta shot ourselves in the foot, and then shot a few other feet just to be safe.l

@Aza ... erf

I know what you mean :/

Oh

not who I was thinking of

@Aza erf. This is difficult for me

...you thought there was only one person, ha ha ha...*

@Shog9 Fair. It would just be nice if people could separate the two events... and maybe take a step back from the keyboard.

@Shog9 Oh I just rememebered the most recent one

Look: let's be clear - there's a heck of a lot of shit around.

And LOTS of people willing to sling more

@Shog9 there is

and probably a lot more than there was

@Aza One of those events... I'm dealing with it. Should be over shortly.

I donno. I've spent a decade looking at shit every day, I've never felt like we had a lack of it.

@Aza I don't really want to go back to being a MSE moderator until I'm sure I can do my job

and parts of it are still murky

Feel free to flag anyone still "drumming up transphobia" or ping me to take a look

Shortly may realistically be in a few days, sadly. But on it.

Point is: if we want stuff to be better, we gotta make a conscious effort. It isn't going to just magically improve with MOAR SUSPENSIONS or MOAR RULES.

If you don't start each conversation with, "how can I find a way to help folks feel like they can be a part of this"... Then they won't.

I'm happy to give folks an almighty thump for being... uhm (insert SE unfriendly phrase here) but - at the same time, I'd like the ability to ask folks to put down the gun they are pointing at their feet...

@Shog9 well you seem to get it >_>

wise-guy, eh

;-P

@Shog9 hardly

@Shog9 You don't have to start every conversation with trying to make people feel like they can be a part. Just don't drive the ones you already have away with frankly stupid, stupid, stupid behavior.

That sounds harder

@Pascal you need to get folks to buy into change to make change

@Shog9 Maybe that could start with finding the low-hanging fruit. Obviously that doesn't change current behavior, but I can still find examples of not very nice "jokes" that have stayed around for years.

See, if folks had just listened to me in '08, there would be no humor anywhere on the network.

or humour

I can't order people to be nice. Or better yet, beat it into them

@JourneymanGeek Agreed. But you don't do that by the heavy-handed approach we've seen unfold here in the last few days.

@Pascal and that's a significant issue I have

or bodily fluids, which I'm told the ancients called "humors". Surely a network not drenched in bodily fluids is a goal we can all share!

And honestly - its pretty painful when folks you know are better than that ... well, don't act that way cause people are just so keyed up.

@Aza eh, I use humour as a teaching tool in my answers.

@Shog9 Too many years too late. ;) But for what I'm referring to, see stackoverflow.com/questions/919128/… (now deleted). That... really didn't need to stay around this long.

Sometimes even when not high as a kite.

@Aza ... so humour?

i mean... for the avg user this change isn't a change

@bruglesco which people do you want to hear you?

why do they need to know?

@bruglesco You be an example. You act with patience and care and make sure you're a voice worth listening to.

Then if someone still does it... you obliterate them.

approach depends on the target audience

Well not literally - but if asking nicely dosen't work, its then worth using more pointed methods.

@bruglesco swinging the ban hammer.

But personal relationships don't really scale that well, nor does folks respecting you.

@202324 suspending someone is, and should be a last resort

It is necessary at times of course

but one does not glory in punitive action

It is necessary in some cases, but best used in moderation (no pun intended) and with a clear goal in mind.

@Houseman same I write.

@bruglesco unfortunately one of the privileges I have had in my life is... I'm a little too patient.

Comes from being an impulsive, hotheaded idiot when i was younger

And then there's questions like this, that somehow (even though they're off-topic) end up floating around and continue to promote stereotyping.

I'm optimistic about people, and trusting. That's burned me a few times in my life, but I don't think I'm going to change.

I suppose that's why we ended up here

@Aza erf

@Aza I have a hard time imagining examples because they usually get deleted before I can see them and I don't have the rep to see deleted posts, but what normally happens to similar posts where the topic discussed is something else?

and I don't know if there is a comparable topic but maybe there is

well, I mean, for a crude example, if someone talks about how code works, and they have their idea that some methods do this and that, although documentation clearly states otherwise, or nobody in the real world uses those methods like that, but this person is oh so convinced about their way of doing things, what happens to their posts?

I realize this is an impersonal example not dealing with human nature but I just can't think of one

@Aza Actually feels like there's a lot more than before

@Aza Please flag those

and/or ping me in the chat there

@Aza erf. and... well... fixing that...

sounds good

@Aza yeah

And some serious mindfulness :/

We're trying to keep on top of it but there's been so much content created over the last week or two that finding it all ... it's hard. Everything turns into a blur. :)

:/

Ya

and we can't see everything

I can normally keep on top of going ons on meta and...

I'm overwhelmed

I mean, not just in terms of feels

just quantity

one part of this whole problem I've noticed is that offensive comment many allude to is often removed and those of us who are not well educated in this topic don't have any examples to analyze and figure out what's wrong about it if it's not obvious, like as you say, just on the cusp. I don't know how to go about collecting such examples in a good way that will lead to more good than bad, for those of us willing to learn. Maybe not on this site even.

@user1306322 there's a good reason these things need to go, and fast.

@Aza Yeah, Most of the CMs were mods or have done a lot of time with mod tools... but sometimes we'll see someone complaining about how rude a statement is and we'll see it and ... not "get it"... because, compared to the carp we've seen... it's nice. :/

Those carp, always causing trouble. . .

I know, but it's kinda like youtube removing historical videos about world wars because you can't show violence. I can spot obvious examples, but some nuanced ones, I might not even be able to recognize.

maybe this isn't something that can be done in a way that creates more good than bad, which is understandable

@HDE226868 You've seen a lot of it with me. :D

@user1306322 Only that these things rarely have redeeming value.

and I'd rather have these things gone before they hurt someone

@bruglesco You have some freedom over it sure

but if you think something is an issue - always fine to let a mod to look at it

Use the custom flag and point us at the profile and we'll clear it.

and if a mod has no idea, well...

@bruglesco not ten posts, like me, or you'll get suspended ;)

@Catija Yes! :D My goodness. I could write a book. . .

@Aza I really appreciate you being here. <3

@202324 one flag a thing that needs to be handled

@Aza They flagged ten posts with the same content and got a suspension on one of the sites.

@djsmiley2k :/dude. You are causing me so much damned grief.

:(

You should fix that silly pronoun thing please. It makes me look bad.

@bruglesco he's a good chap. I'll see what I can do to get it fixed.

@Aza I'll echo Catija - Hat-tip to you for being here right now. Through all of this. In a place that's caused you a good deal of pain at times.

Not sure I could have done it, if I was in your shoes.

0_o That killed the conversation.

@Aza that's about all anyone can do

So, I've been looking for a solid metric for "the level of death in SE". It can't be the answer rate, or the # of high-rep users deleting their accounts. Those are too depressing. I've decided to pin it thusly: if ever the internal Community Manager chatroom has more activity than The Tavern, we're officially dying.

...we came within a few dozen messages last week. But this room has rallied, and I think we're safe now.

0_0

GOOD JOB, EVERYONE!

@Shog9 the tavern is usually quieter than this though

shhhh

@Shog9 And we were moved to Slack

SHHHHHHH

@Catija :(

We're fighting it.

...y'all are kinda spoiling my new metric. Why you gotta be that way?

We really should let Shog have some light.

@Shog9 cause we love you.

I hate you all so very, very much. You should know that. You mean that much to me.

damn straight

:(

u guys get paid?!?

@Houseman I'm sure its from the bottom of his heart. Which is probably in a mason jar somewhere.

@user1306322 the CMs do, sure

but then, they need to deal with us...

@JourneymanGeek Full of moonshine.

Shog's very peculiar ;p

If you ever want to hide something from him, put it in the bottom of a bottle of Tequila.

@Aza when one is drunk enough, presumably....

I mean the kind of booze but that works, too.

You know, everyone loves remote work, and loves to talk up its benefits. But there's one thing folks too often ignore, and I believe it is THE BIGGEST benefit:

I walk two steps and hit a button, and my co-workers can't see OR hear me yelling at them.

I've gone off on folks in every job I've ever had, but this is the only one where I've been able to do so on the sly. HUGE benefit right there.

@Shog9 oh man

I've had people go off on me, subtextually on whatsapp on this job

I'm glad to say my replacement is apparently worse than me and no one has complained.

(also erf. I hate the use of whatsapp here but... ehhh)

that does sound vaguely creepy

I'm sorry

Nobody should be subject to that sort of working conditions

No need to lie, @Shog9 Most of the time you don't need to walk anywhere.

@Shog9 well until I find something better - It pays the bills.

@Catija true, but I do anyway. I really have a lot of trouble standing still

@Catija a lot of IT folks not in an office... pace

It's... Uh, kind of a wonder I ever held down an office job, looking back.

yea it's not healthy sitting all day, doctors recommend taking frequent walks around the office to maintain health

Also since I mostly do vaguely desktopish stuff

@JourneymanGeek Not just IT people... I spend most of calls walking around my house.

i make a point to stand up once an hour... but it's easy to forget when you're buried in a problem

@Catija You know where my current worksite is right?

so... there's a light rail between 2 places I got work in

@KevinB drink a loooot of tea, you'll have to stand up frequently

I'd rather walk than take the train ;p

eh, i do, :p

That's a healthy choice.

hydration!

2 cups of coffee, tall glass of tea at lunch, then water throughout the rest

Also, now I have stairs, so I may spend a lot of time walking up and down the stairs... if I had a square, I'd be marching up and down the square.

@Catija I was also stressed XD

Was?

Oh

specific stress.

not what I think you were thinking of

I wasn't thinking of anything specific... I just wasn't sure you were past the stress yet. :P

(system provided by another vendor is crap, we were running under capasity, I had no idea what I was doing, boss was yelling at me for something I couldn't fix)

@Catija multiple sources of stress ;p

Dog's better, though he needs a tooth yanked, work, here...

I mean, least I have the option of walking away from SE a while.

you can walk away from work also, say something urgent came up and you have to leave this instant, and it won't be a lie broadly speaking

There are jobs where if you don't show up to work one day you're fired.

no, I mean, say you gotta pee reeeeeeeeeeal bad

just spend the 10-15 minutes coming to your senses in privacy

@user1306322 I mean yanno. Just take a break

yea, and depending on the severity of the situation turn it into a long "poop" break (actually just composing yourself and heaving a good long breather alone)

HAHAHA

Eh. Sometimes stuff needs to be done now or 5 minutes ago

And you're overwhelmed

That seems like it's in the same category as "voluntold".

Also some stress is cumilative

when workers can be overstressed and become unable to do anything anymore, losing some 5 minutes might be a necessary loss, if you're a smart boss you know that, if not, prepare for some lost revenue I guess :p

There's a bunch of stuff piled up that needs dealing with and more than I like is on me

@Aza This is basically my company.

They pick up random small things that are not 'ours' to keep the customer happy and messily gets dumped on us.

And Singapore is very management by threatening posturing

Which is toxic as heck but....

Well and lots of wierd little things

It is.

@Aza Uhm so... I work for one company... Which outsourced me to another company which has a contract for a project for the government

The company that pays my paycheck just takes their cut and that's it

@Aza :( Sounds like you're understaffed...

And the technology we use is.... uhm

The skills don't transfer well

@Aza Is the turnover bad?

The "infant mortality" was actually what caught my eye. :(

My 11-month-old fell a bit earlier and hit his mouth his gums were bleeding. Scared the crud out of me.

@Aza Often it's not the workers who fail 😁

He was toddling around and climbing over stuff before he fell asleep, so I think he's fine.