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3:05 PM
@canon I'm guessing Sara and David want to put the cherry on top by suspending me on MSE but they know there'd be an outcry because I haven't done anything to warrant it.
 
I'm glad some of it got cleared up between folks
@MonicaCellio erf
They'd totally lose me too then
 
@JourneymanGeek and they keep digging. Why the heck won't they try to start fixing things??
 
@MonicaCellio I don't know!
 
@MonicaCellio remember when you made that blog post about how, "SE, we need to talk?" and I jokingly quipped, "They're just not that into you..." Well, that quip saddens me now.
 
@MonicaCellio I'm sure they just wanted to sit out Yom Kippur :P :(
 
3:07 PM
sigh, I'm feeling like there's some cultural thing I'm missing and people just get in each other's face all the time ><
 
I'm also pretty sure that it's hard to maintain a dynamic dialogue when every single word has to be approved by lawyers
 
@canon yeah, I remember. Somebody said something like "she's too invested in that relationship". The problem is that the relationship I'm invested in is the one with my communities.
 
Well, there's that
@MonicaCellio and that's the thing that keeps most of us still here
 
@MonicaCellio I get that. :/
 
Granted this whole mess hurts my head
 
3:08 PM
@JourneymanGeek if I get my diamonds back, I'm not going back to TL, or at least not until I hear that it's become substantially less toxic. I'll focus on my communities. SE doesn't work with mods in good faith so why try to track things there?
 
I'm seeing more of the kinda stuff we're supposed to not see with the new COC
@MonicaCellio I get
 
You wouldn't believe some of the trolling crap that has landed in my inbox because of Sara's false accusations.
 
:/
I can imagine
 
Some of the crap is abuse from trolls; some of the crap, maybe the worst crap, is recruiting pitches from hatemongers. FFS.
 
I fully expected to get rickrolled by shog9's youtube link. Is it weird that I'm disappointed?
 
3:10 PM
@MonicaCellio ugh
 
I get
erf
That's the worst bit
 
@MonicaCellio theyve kinda painted themselves into a corner and didnt leave any wiggle room for backtracks
 
user194636
@canon little bit
 
user194636
@Magisch the problem with going all-in is you're all-in
 
@PaulWhite and ... you never go all in.
 
3:12 PM
@Magisch they can still backtrack. They can admit to a misunderstanding and move forward. Everybody has misunderstandings sometimes. Granted, it's harder to admit the magnitude of the overreaction the longer they let it go, but they could still fix this.
 
@MonicaCellio they might be worried about liability
 
@JourneymanGeek thank you for that meta answer calling for me to be reinstated, by the way. Much appreciated.
 
@MonicaCellio It was the right thing to do.
 
@MonicaCellio their description of sustained violations of the current COC despite multiple warnings leaves them no out without admitting negligience.
 
Sorry its CW
 
3:12 PM
which no company ever does
 
It reminds me of the near wake of the Trump election... when racists came out of the woodwork and revealed themselves. Because I hadn't seen overt racism in so long I made the mistaken assumption that it had largely died. It was disturbing to realize they'd just learned to keep those opinions to themselves... quietly biding their time.
 
@MonicaCellio From what I've seen about - folks really want you back
and they miss having you around
 
@JourneymanGeek I understand it's fairly common in the US for things to be settled with no admissions of guilt but with damages/correction/etc nonetheless happening. You see these cases where company X paid plaintiffs millions of dollars and didn't admit fault. There's precedent.
 
@MonicaCellio well someone has to take the initiative there at SE
 
@Magisch I am willing to let them say "we misunderstood you", if they fix the damage they did.
 
3:14 PM
@MonicaCellio and honestly - looking at everything, that feels like a possibility
 
@MonicaCellio what's plan B?
 
you might be. But then someone else is going to use that to damage them by saying they re-instated someone who did all these terrible things
 
@canon I'm not sure there's a good plan B
 
and that might get them another flogging on the usual places
 
@JourneymanGeek somebody has to actually answer email and engage with me...
Not dismiss me with vague allegations.
 
3:15 PM
@MonicaCellio erf
 
@MonicaCellio maybe you should just ask for counsel's email and skip the middle man.
 
I got the idea that's the case
 
I think they're hoping it'll just die down, they can get away with the hurt, and the community will move on in 6-8 weeks.
And anybody who left, well, good riddance.
@canon not saying publicly.
 
I still really hope we get you back because firing you was BS and you've always been a great influence on the communities you moderated, but I wouldnt bet on it
 
user194636
Did someone just accuse SE of having a plan?
 
3:16 PM
@MonicaCellio Nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
 
@Magisch and other spaces too
 
@Magisch they kept someone whose CoC violations in TL that day were way more egregious than anything I did. They already have a problem there.
 
@MonicaCellio they didnt call out that person by real name to news media though
 
@MonicaCellio and... no matter how well written a COC is.,..
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer, potentially bad asn for hostname in answer (94): Where is mongo database folder on the filesystem by vowa555 on askubuntu.com
 
3:17 PM
you still need the folks to actually be able to listen to folks and help
 
@MonicaCellio Do you think your demotion was in any way connected to challenging staff?
 
@Magisch no, they're protecting that person.
 
@canon tbh, not going into details, it was chaotic.
 
meh
 
@canon yes.
 
3:18 PM
@MonicaCellio :/
 
@MonicaCellio I emailed about that incident, didn't get an answer either.
 
I think some folks in SE have been looking for an opportunity ever since I wrote that Medium post. I just didn't realize someone there was nursing that grudge.
 
The total cynic in me said they're finalizing a post-facto justification to keep you fired by doing this new process
and it'll be a foregone conclusion
 
Certain... people... have demonstrated a severe sense insecurity and self-doubt. I wouldn't be surprised if that resulted in a defensive reaction here or there. In fact, I might know a helpful blog post for them regarding introspection.
 
@MonicaCellio and yet, that's something we needed
 
user194636
3:19 PM
So. CoC today. Mod removal/reinstatement process tomorrow. I expect Monica's situation to move forward after that.
 
And well, not everyone has the courage to step up like that.
 
@MonicaCellio that would have been remarkably petty
@PaulWhite the process only for mods though
unknown when it'll be posted publicly
 
@Magisch there's a process for mods to ask a mod to step down
 
user194636
@Magisch Yes. Still they need to have a process to follow.
 
and from what i've seen mods have been asked to step down in the past
 
3:20 PM
@JourneymanGeek I sent email about those CoC violations on September 20, well in advance of the other events. I never got an answer either. The person remains a mod. After I was fired I realized I had an account on that mod's site, requested deletion, then requested expedited deletion because I was concerned about misuse of PII. It got deleted eventually but no expedited handling.
 
@MonicaCellio that medium post was warranted.
 
This is kinda like the WMF creating a whole policy for temporary site bans to use it on the one person that upset one of the board member's spouse
 
@MonicaCellio in spite of everything -I have trust in some folks in the organisation
I figure if we give them the stuff they need...
 
@Magisch and yet, in light of recent events...
 
I can't begrudge you for assuming it
 
3:21 PM
@canon it was.
 
Like I said somewhere in a comment, if someone did that to me I would be out for blood
 
@JourneymanGeek I do too. But I don't trust that they have any power. :-(
 
@MonicaCellio maaaybe
But what other option do we have?
 
there comes a point where you should substitute endless optimism with anticipation of disappointment
 
@JourneymanGeek Some as in like... Tim and Shog?
 
3:23 PM
Hold things together, keep things on a simmer..
@canon not naming names.
@AndrasDeak and yet
people need that.
 
allegedly :P
 
If community matters more than drama.
 
I don't think you can separate them when drama goes to the core of how the community is treated
 
@AndrasDeak eh, Do people need to be plunged into the dark cause of the decisions of folks who are on the top?
 
People who see me might think that I enjoy drama, but I don't. I just accept it and try to make do.
 
3:26 PM
We do more when folks have faith in each other
 
@JourneymanGeek people need to know the reality
 
 
3 hours later…
6:28 PM
@Magisch Gotcha--thanks.
 
Thanks
 
@ballBreaker I'm finding it very hard to assume good intentions from the crowd that take this issue and says "oh yea? I want 'dude' to be my pronoun"
Or "your majesty" or "sir awesome" or whatever other nonsense.
 
@meagar I don't understand why, I follow the Dudeism religion.
 
No, you don't.
 
Excuse me?
 
6:31 PM
stop
 
I can legally marry someone under my religion.
 
@ballBreaker take this to meta.stackexchange.com/contact
 
I'm refraining from flagging you for the benefit of those asking to take this elsewhere. But you're being really insensitive.
Thank you Magisch I will follow your link.
 
15 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
Resorting to derailing the argument with "Oh yeah? If they get to be called "they", then I get to be called "dude"' is at best en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
At best it is flawed debate.
At worst it is a willful attempt to minimize or derail the argument.
 
6:35 PM
@meagar topic has been dropped, please.
4 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
 
1 hour later…
7:47 PM
@AndrasDeak reducto adsurdum is a valid point tho
 
Kaz
@djsmiley2k Hell, I think the CoC as it stands would have probably been ok if they hadn't screwed over Monica.
 
2 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
@AndrasDeak my thought on that is 'gender is a given, sexuality is chosen' but that's not a discussion for now.
 
@djsmiley2k most people will disagree with you, and yes, this is not the time, nor place
 
@djsmiley2k not in the tavern
 
8:01 PM
@Magisch Not now, maybe not ever. Kind of pointless convo on the internet, where I'm a dog and no one knows.
 
4 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
Ok.

1. Sorry for my terrible post. I posted it out of frustration at the feeling that no matter what I, nor anyone else in the community actually thinks, SE will continue on the weird road they've started down

2. Hi :D
 
@Froopy I'll survive but only if you change your name to King Froopy
 
2 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
@user58 I'm insulted by this
 
8:14 PM
1 message moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
Ah so someone trolling my chat logs :D
They'll find lots of fun stuff if they look hard enough.
Such 'nice' people, eh?
 
3 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
8:30 PM
Context matters and with that goodbye
 
2 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
Heh they kept digging, now I'm banned for 4 days?
 
2 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
9:00 PM
Sorry to interrupt, but where can I report a fake website pretending to be Stack Exchange? I must have landed there about 2 weeks ago. It looks like SE, but Monica is no mod, sex ads everywhere and noise must now be kept in Stack Overflow questions.
 
1 message moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
@user58 Thank you so much
 
1 message moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
I wanted to say I lol'd but not sure if I'll get another ban :/
 
1 message moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
user310756
9:17 PM
@MonicaCellio I don't think making references to TL that cannot be supported in any way like that is helping your case. It's starting to feel really bad and out of control. Particularly any repeat debate in here about how to use pronouns that were already had in TL. Honestly if you cannot see what you are repeating here in public, then you will never learn. Sorry, but it's true.
 
9:33 PM
1 message moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
user310756
@ArtOfCode interesting. The amount of garbage in this room and you remove the one message that takes to task someone wanting to be a moderator breaking the mod rules.
 
1 message moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
user310756
@ArtOfCode stop moving my messages or I will be going to the CMs about it
 
user310756
it's an abuse of your privileges
 
Yvette... please. Art is just trying to keep things calm. Discussion of the TL is best saved for another time and place.
 
user310756
9:37 PM
@CesarM something needs to be done about the moderation of this room. It seems all bets are on to rubbish some things and if something else is mentioned, there's censorship
 
user310756
@user58 I didn't bring it up in this room. Perhaps the original message should be removed and Art shouldn't ignore me
 
Yvette. If you have a problem with moderation here, use the contact form or ping a CM somewhere else. I'm not going to let disruption to what was otherwise a reasonably good conversation, particularly by today's standards, stand.
 
1 message moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
...that "not letting disruption stand" applies to everyone...
 
user310756
@ArtOfCode don't have a go at me! As if I'm the disruptive one. There's a heap of chat there. So no one is allowed to have an opinion?
 
user310756
9:40 PM
@Catija there needs to be some consistent moderation in here. The room either needs to be on topic for all people, or none.
 
user310756
And the unfriendliness of the moderation in here for anyone not agreeing with the current popular opinion on MSE is frightening
 
@user3956566. Bringing back up something that was over and done with several hours ago just to lambast the person who posted it is disruptive. Ordering people to not moderate your messages or you'll go tell on us is disruptive. You're more than welcome to have an opinion, and to constructively discuss it in here; you're not welcome to disrupt things. Nobody is. This isn't being selectively applied to you; we've been moderating everyone all afternoon.
 
user310756
basically anyone who doesn't agree with the popular opinion is trashed
 
@user3956566. I was voicing popular opinion and still got trashed. It's needless drama that gets trashed.
 
user310756
@ArtOfCode you haven't done a good job of it. Clearly, by the look of the chat history the room should have been frozen. This reminds me of TL
 
user310756
9:42 PM
@AndrasDeak what outright insulting me?
 
user310756
Good on you
 
Um... can we please calm down a bit. This seems to be needlessly out of control.
 
user310756
@Catija I've basically been told I'm disruptive and to get lost. But in "cloaked" politeness
 
@user3956566. I think that it's fair to try to limit the amount of TL discussion that happens in here... particularly since this isn't the TL and it can be kinda confusing ... and I understand that there was some discussion about it earlier, but I don't think the current ROs were around at that time to curb the discussion then.
 
user310756
@Catija that makes sense. thanks
 
user310756
9:49 PM
and thanks for not just ignoring me and being dismissive about it.
 
:) Sure.
I'mma see if we can clean up some of the older stuff so that we don't leave it lying around.
 
user310756
@Catija that is a very good idea. It's poisonous.
 
136 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
suggested title edit to "trashcan2" to save time
 
10:05 PM
@StephanS genius
(ran out of stars)
 
no problem it will be moved to the trashcan
 
4 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
 

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