Tavern on the Meta - 2019-10-09 (page 1 of 2)

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12:29 AM

Andras I just remembered you used to help me in the python chat, right?

2 hours later…

Journeyman Geek

2:04 AM

→ 17 messages moved to Chimney

2 hours later…

4:12 AM

Anyone have a SEDE for how many posts contain an inputted regex?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Stormblessed There's a Data Explorer room on this server

Top Secret

...?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Data Explorer (SEDE)

For discussions related to SEDE queries and anything related t...

oh yeah I'd found that

@Sonic thanks!

people on Meta are nice

0

Q: Stack Exchange is messing up my links to Amazon

Stack Exchange is messing up my links to Amazon. Example: https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/hpc/3774321, which works (can't post as link as SE will transform it), is transformed into https://rads.stackoverflow.com/amzn/click/3774321, which is 404.

bug hyperlinks amazon

How did the OP VTC before Ward did?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Stormblessed They used a normal close vote instead of the "that solved my problem" button

4:22 AM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog oh ok, how'd you check?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Stormblessed Their name showed up

If they used the button, it'd just be the Community user

5:09 AM

→ 4 messages moved to Chimney

1 hour later…

6:28 AM

Good morning at the Tavern.

Well, sure.

!!/coffee

@rene brews a cup of Macchiato for @rene

6:42 AM

morning

!!/tea

@Magisch brews a cup of green tea for @Magisch

1 hour later…

7:48 AM

@kush possible

8:15 AM

We've met! I remember you when you were thiiiis tall! [*holds a hand an inch above their head*]

Journeyman Geek

8:29 AM

@Feeds that's perfect fine for some grandparents

user351483

!!/beer

@Snow No such command 'beer'.

smokey only makes coffee and tea

and jquery

user351483

sigh probably too early anyway.

heh

How's TWP holding up? Is the flag volume concerning for 2 people?

8:37 AM

@Feeds I won't be wearing The Skipper's hat but would be proud for my child to say I'm over 100!; particularly if they're young.

user351483

@Magisch Nope. All is good and no dramas to speak of. gnat is approaching 10K helpful flags.

@Snow sounds nice. I've resolved to make a habit of reviewing more most days

user351483

Good, that helps a great deal. Thank you. It's a bit sad to see that red spot on the review queue.

and 200 more rep then I can VTD answers

user351483

Answering questions would probably help there! :P

8:44 AM

there aren't so many where I feel that a) my perspective is useful and unique and b) a similar perspective hasn't been given already

user351483

I know. And people tend to answer quickly. Which is good. It's not good to see questions being left unattended.

Thankfully there are very few questions with not at least a decent answer

unless they're off topic in which case answering them wouldn't be right anyways

user351483

There are people who seek to help the OP regardless of whether a question is on topic or not. I'm not entirely against that. I know that some sites punish people for answering off-topic questions.

I like it when people at least give pointers in comments on OT questions

Although that is technically a misuse of the comment. But sometimes you can pack it with useful comment material like why the question is OT in its current state and how to fix it. Idk I'm not too hot on people who punish users who answer OT questions. After all we're all doing this for free out of a desire to help

For a moment I thought the "Addic Static Code Analysis to StackOverflow" meant they added this to questions & answers :D But they are just doing this on their internal code base.

Journeyman Geek

8:58 AM

@Snow The best help you can do is pointing someone in the right direction ;p

@ComFreek not a bad idea .. This PHP code doesn't look like C# and is therefor rejected.

user351483

@JourneymanGeek There's been times when the manner of that pointing has led me to no longer participate in the site at hand.

Journeyman Geek

@Snow yup

But I think sometimes tact is important

Tone matters a lot. No matter how often we tell us that it's all about the facts and nothing about the social context, it does come into play

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch it does

9:50 AM

@Magisch shoot, then I may have to reword my canned comment that starts with "you dumb"

"Thou art not the sharpest knife in the drawer" will do

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak for all the complaints I get about how naively optimistic I sound - its worth considering that could also be a concious choice.

Likewise - consider, if you may, how an imperitive "or else" sounds compared to very slight, subtile social pressure "I feel that this might not be the best way..."

10:27 AM

@JourneymanGeek Optimism may seem naive, but it sure feels better than constant gloomy pessimism. I'm sure you've seen this comic, so I won't one-box it.

Journeyman Geek

10:47 AM

@PM2Ring yup

The real trick is not getting what you want by using your powers, but to only use powers when asking nicely has failed

Like we rarely have to kick instead of letting getting a kick speak for itself like other rooms practice

11:00 AM

The real power is not tricking what you get by using your want, but to only ask uses when powering nicely has failed.

@M.A.R. str.split(' ').shuffle().toString()

Journeyman Geek

11:33 AM

@M.A.R. woof.

@Magisch I've never really had positional power or respect outside here.

So personally it's just how I have had to handle things my whole life

Even when I get it... Its from how people see me

I'm the DPO at my job. I never had to threaten anyone with HR. Usually asking & explaining your reasoning works wonders where coercion would not really.

12:28 PM

It must take a ton of courage to anonymize one's account and hide all other accounts and then again attack someone who uses her real name and doesn't have the option anyway, because even the press published it already. And wait until Yom Kippur started so she won't even be online to reply (as she announced beforehand).

user194636

Comments were a mistake.

Journeyman Geek

@AnneDaunted ow. Where?

Flag it.

Erf

@AnneDaunted feel free to let us know here if we can help out somehow through extra flags.

Journeyman Geek

I know there's mods active at the moment/I can probably get some help

If Anne means what I think she means you might not want to

it's ... erf

@JourneymanGeek can you poke someone to unfeature this: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/333763/…

Journeyman Geek

12:44 PM

ah uhm

scratches head

@Magisch ah, yes

Journeyman Geek

We usually left that to the CMs

one moment

Thanks, but it needn't be flagged.

Journeyman Geek

let me get caught up

@AnneDaunted perhaps the user will go on hiatus for two days

12:45 PM

@Magisch Why do you want it unfeatured?

user351483

@AnneDaunted You're referring to the user who loves horses?

@Snow we have plenty of those

Journeyman Geek

oh

I am starting to see

sigh

@AnneDaunted It's taken a beating and was posted like 5 weeks ago

@Snow It's just a user with a generic user<long number> name.

12:49 PM

at least it's a float

@Magisch It would be good if it could be replaced with the "Dear Stack Exchange" letter, but won't happen.

user351483

@AnneDaunted Yeah. I know who it is.

at least that user must be very good at learning from mistakes, judging by the comment :P

@AnneDaunted Yeah, no. The company surely won't feature a letter that is harshly criticising them for everyoen to see and read, no matter how much we all agree with it

barely any people have signed it (them), so I don't know how much "we all agree with it"

12:52 PM

@Magisch Then the Meta Zoo #9 post could stay, if only for its top answer

Journeyman Geek

@AnneDaunted oh I know who it is

@JourneymanGeek Sorry for remaining so vague, but it was intentional.

@Magisch I've linked to that podcast + transcript in comments a couple of times. I thought it had good, relevant stuff about the spirit of the law vs the letter of the law.

@AndrasDeak I think the lack of signatures on the main letter is because a lot of people think only mods are supposed to sign it... which implies they didn't actually look at the signatures.

user351483

"A letter from the moderators" just reinforces the fact that it's from the moderators.

1:08 PM

:/

@AnneDaunted maybe, if we have to be so vague about it, let's just not discuss users in that manner?

"The site is popular with developers seeking advice on the best way to fix broken code."

bleh

reuters.com/article/us-germany-shooting/…

@JourneymanGeek Your detective skills are clearly superior ti mine, but I'm a newb to MSE.

user351483

@AnneDaunted In my case, it's just me looking for code to do stuff.

Journeyman Geek

1:11 PM

@PM2Ring naw, I just know a lot of folks

@JourneymanGeek So do I, on the parts of the network I usually inhabit. At least, I'm pretty good at knowing the author of a post before seeing their name, if they're a regular.

Journeyman Geek

@PM2Ring lemme put it this way

I know most of the meta regulars, and those on SU

I know a few mods, but there's too many to know them alll

Hey, don't put it in my direction!

Journeyman Geek

SOME people, I wish I didn't know that well

Here's a letter from a user: R

Journeyman Geek

1:15 PM

glares at @M.A.R. like he has two first names

R is the coolest letter in English.

Almost as cool as M.

A and R I can get behind ... but M ... meh.

user351483

Not as cool as my name.

@Bart A's not cool

@Snow S is overrated

@JourneymanGeek You break my heart

@M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

1:17 PM

@JourneymanGeek :) Yeah, I don't know the MSE crowd that well, apart from the crash course I've had over the last week. I occasionally check out MSO, but I find it too draining to spend a lot of time there.

Journeyman Geek

@PM2Ring Meta's probably... the hardest site to get to know

I have an advantage since I really only got active as a moderator

user194636

> mar (third-person singular simple present mars, present participle marring, simple past and past participle marred)

(transitive) To spoil; to ruin; to scathe; to damage.

Tips cowboy hat Back in my day, meta meant murder folks

Say it in @Journey accent

@PaulWhite that definition is MARRing my reputation

Journeyman Geek

@M.A.R. amusingly, I missed the early days

user194636

🙂

1:19 PM

Point. No particular nuisance to pick up on the apostrophes.

user351483

I miss the days when everything I posted on Meta was met with dirision and downvotes.

Journeyman Geek

I think end 2014 is my sort of turning point

@Snow I never really had that

I didn't post much ;p

@Snow if you want we can bring those days back. Just ping us whenever you write something.

@Snow -1 UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTIONS

Journeyman Geek

@Snow that's an interesting question I often ask myself

1:21 PM

I"M NOT ANGRY

Journeyman Geek

Why am I on meta?

Why are you on meta

user351483

@JourneymanGeek That's so Meta.

Journeyman Geek

@Snow so... to an extent, our ability to effect change is limited

we can suggest stuff but the pipeline has always been opaque

Is it ... because you love us @JourneymanGeek?

Journeyman Geek

1:22 PM

@Bart hmm, no? ;p

Well ... that's ... I'm going to grab a coffee and cry into the cup for a while ...

@Bart Nespresso. What else.

@JourneymanGeek With all other channels of communication blocked, we tried sending smoke signals, so they sent the fire brigade.

Fire fighters make good wall defenders

Unless they're kicking you out while doing it

Journeyman Geek

I've mostly been associated with one community

so its not exactly ...

Meta rep is mostly useless.

(Actually - its vaguely fun, and I kinda like helping people, but shhhh)

1:26 PM

you mean my 16000 internet points do not mean anything?

Journeyman Geek

Its a perfectly good rhetorical question

D:

Journeyman Geek

nope

@Magisch I'm actually slightly relieved to have stopped repcapping

@Magisch Only yours don't matter.

user351483

Today will be my 11th consecutive repcap. On answers I never wanted to have to write.

1:28 PM

@Snow That's so meta

in a perfect world, I'd be at 7k or so

the rest is from trying to react to a large series of corporate mistakes

@Magisch Nope, even those don't matter. Sorry.

Meanwhile, now that they don't matter, can you send me some.

Not like they mean anything.

Journey may become a mod again, and that thing is against the rules

I've never been site suspended and I wont start now :p

Journeyman Geek

lol

I've been chat suspended. Once. I think.

user351483

1:30 PM

@Magisch I can make that happen. We're not supposed to, but I can make an exception.

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch The break does me good ;p

Or maybe twice. It was 2015.

Shog chat banned me for 2 weeks sometime in 2016

I had it coming

user351483

I got chat suspended once. I didn't even notice until I was made a moderator.

@Snow I think mods on Software Engineering did that ones for a test in the Programmers SE days ... that didn't go over well :D

Journeyman Geek

1:32 PM

I don't think I have been suspended ever

@JourneymanGeek You must be an exemplary person.

Other then that I apparently dont even have account annotations

Journeyman Geek

@M.A.R. people fear a warm gift in their shoes.

Or a personly exemplar.

@JourneymanGeek baked beans? So it was you

Journeyman Geek

Those... were... not... baked... beans....

1:34 PM

Yeah right, exemplary exemplar.

1:57 PM

nobody expected spanish inquisition

hello

Zoe the transgirl

o/

how is eveyone

Journeyman Geek

aight

that's good

so um there's been a genuine apology

2:04 PM

user image

sorry

@Gwideon ?

Perhaps that was the genuine apology? :p

@Gwideon which one? There’re too many attempts at apology to keep track of...

@Stormblessed = 1

2:08 PM

for um the drama

@Magisch well = true would also work, but I guess it’d need a timer for 13 years or something to be accurate

@Stormblessed you declared it as an int

writing = true for an int is possible but syntactically misleading

valid in javascript

Journeyman Geek

o0

@Magisch oh wait

Why is it an int

It ruins it

It should be a Boolean

I didn’t make it

2:24 PM

@rene sure, I still wouldn't

if I want a boolean, I declare a boolean. Or I don't declare it at all, it's javascript, one of the most weakly typed languages

3:13 PM

Aww... apparently "More Than Words" lyrics aren't a quality comment on Dave's apology.

3:31 PM

Lessons from Design School for Software Engineers

Iheanyi Ekechukwu on October 09, 2019

“I think that this is successful because…”

“I don’t think is successful because…”

“The way you did X strengthens this work because…”

“I think that the direction of X is stronger because…”

“I don’t like the way this code is structured. Use a hash map instead of an array.”

“Have you considered storing it in a hash map instead of an array? I think that might have better performance.”

4:30 PM

How's that company-moderator collaboration going for the CoC?

@canon stalled for 6 to 8 hours. Something about sleep. As a flower I don't know that concept

@canon Well it's... uhm... rummages around in the kitchen drawer Hey, look! A potato masher!

5:07 PM

→ 2 messages moved to Trashcan

Wow, can't even crack a joke in here?

If you don't have something productive to say, then don't say anything.

@user58 You mean like half the stuff in here?

@Mysticial Previous unhandled misbehavior doesn't excuse future misbehavior. It calls attention to stuff that went unhandled, but it doesn't allow other stuff to go by. Your message happened to be the first thing I saw when I came online, and it struck me as unconstructive. I removed it. Please keep things constructive in the future.

2

@Mysticial that was a tad too dark. And for casual on-lookers maybe misunderstood as being a joke.

5:21 PM

@rene that's fair

thanks for your understanding.

5:55 PM

I meant to put collaboration in quotes. Does that count as unconstructive?

It'd be at the very least misleading.

6:40 PM

@Mysticial Meh, nothing too serious, the ice is a bit thin here at the moment

No one's fault

@user58 It's been stated on SO/SE and directly to the press that the CoC isn't up for debate. There doesn't seem to be much time allocated for review, feedback, and iteration prior to the scheduled rollout. So, it seems like empty words. I'm just curious (hopeful) whether there's been any real collaboration.

I do think they didn't build in enough time, but there has been collaboration. Staff has been listening and making changes based on our feedback.

Good.

@rene Hey, if you had to stare at a light source for a few hours you would've needed sleep too.

Wait.

@user58 So they lied when they said it wasn't for discussion?

6:42 PM

Can I demand to be referred to as we?

No, we.

lol

@Magisch The change wasn't up for discussion; the exact wording is still being finalized.

Absolutely no sprinkles.

@Magisch it could be like "discuss with community how to word it clearly, and then it's not up for debate"

6:44 PM

eh

I read that as, "no input regarding the substance of the code but we got to play with the copy"

It would be interesting to have a survey somewhere, because if I interpreted the math from sources I got right they might be about to alienate ~40% of the userbase with that change

whether or not feedback is listened to is... irrelevant when you're only allowing feedback of one kind.

4

@Magisch Unlikely.

Well, TBH, after so many announcements, I wouldn't really be angry enough if they just pushed the Clash of Clans thing.

6:45 PM

less then half of all people in the US are comfortable at all with using chosen pronouns, drastically less even in the EU. Even assuming programming is an exceptionally liberal field, thats still about half

I have a fear that it'll work out like the twitter CoC where they ultimately can't enforce it at all

Just a fear?

One single unit of fear?

Wait, do you metric, or do you London.

Because then I'd have Imperially metric ton(ne)s of fear.

Pay respect to fear. Fear is countable, too!

@M.A.R. It's a proprietary unit called a geigercronenberg.

I like the change, because using pronouns is a small thing and matters quite a bit to people, and everyone should afford the basic respect of doing it, but I'm unconvinced they can push it to actually stick

First off... "chosen" and "preferred" are words that should, in general, be avoided when referring to people's pronouns. Second, the change isn't really all that drastic and I don't think the letter of the law is going to be that controversial. Sure, there's going to be some pushback on the spirit of the change, but... whatever.

6:48 PM

And I'm so, so burned out of drama so I'm not looking forward to another round of hand wringing from vocal detractors

@JohnDvorak Hey, I don't pay nothing.

@user58 I use chosen instead of preferred because preferred implies its up for debate

"correct" is a nice term.

No it's not.

is no prefix better? I have no clue about the sensitivities of language surrounding this

6:49 PM

@user58 but ambiguous

It always appears when you dun goofed in exam.

kinda harkens back to derpys answer

@Magisch I'd generally leave off the prefix, yes. If you specifically want to call attention to pronouns other than "he" and "she", I've seen "unconventional", but I'm not sure about the intricacies of that.

I want this groundhog day aggressivity cycle between users and staff to end

My viewpoint is something between 58 and the German's. It would probably be an edition of CoC that, in itself, causes little drama. Part of that would have to do with the fact that it is impossible to enforce it (if it is as strongly worded as I've heard).

6:50 PM

@Magisch groundhog day?

yeah

why's that?

@Magisch To be honest, I'd prefer the aggression to the cold indifference we get in the dry months.

I want the coc to actually have teeth and be effective in setting a standard for behavior that is widely followed and enforced

@Magisch I'm hopeful. I have a feeling it's going to get a bit worse and then finally calm down. I think the release of the updated CoC is going to spark the crest and then it'll be a calming trend.

6:51 PM

The drama would be mostly people that disagree with the spirit and are willing to yell at the top of their voice, or something meta, like why it was announced early/late, why we weren't consulted, whatever.

@Magisch not if it alienates 40% of the user base!

I don't anyone has any energy left for either.

@JohnDvorak 70?

I'm entirely uninterested to protest a basic human dignity mandate that I agree with due to technicalities

I mean, let's be honest here. Asia doesn't care. They have their own cultural dilemmas.

Not if it alienates 40% of the user base or more!

6:53 PM

@user58 Honestly, so far, they seem to be taking our request to be part of the process very seriously. That alone gives me hope. But I haven't been a mod long enough to get really burned by them at any point before.

Angering your own god isn't a technicality, and I'd really not want to anger my god

@Rubiksmoose I wrote a thing back in July about some of the problems we've had in the past.

@Rubiksmoose The only thing new about this theatrical release is its magnitude. It's been going on for a couple of years at least, and we keep getting back to the main point: We are the 0.015%.

Yeah, that. 58 sums it up nicely.

In about three million words.

so, the real number of people affected won't be known until by seeing the fallout?

so there is 2 ways I see it working out

1) this thing is released, a small outcry happens, everyone moves on and we never speak of it again

2) they actually set out to enforce it but can't due to not being able to afford to lose that much of their user base, and we never speak of it again

6:56 PM

neither option would be bad

Either way, I don't see a positive path for lasting change here

You have an interesting definition of "working out". It must be German.

/s/working/playing

Werklichen üte

call me a frequent pessimist but I've seen this happen before in various forms

6:57 PM

3) all of the remaining mods learn what they are supposed to enforce, and resign in protest

Pessimist

4) all of the remaining mods learn what they are supposed to enforce, enforce it, and end up with 40% of the user base suspended

@JohnDvorak Mmmmeh.

effective rules can only work with the consent of the governed. We tried something much milder on a hobby community once, and people just ignored it

When we started enforcing it with penalties, people just left

I think the ones that stick around are angered enough by the issue but want to help out with the community while murmuring some curses at SE.

6:58 PM

It sucks though because not doing it isn't possible either

@JohnDvorak 5) We get sucked into a blackhole and go back (or forward) in time to yell at our kids.

My suspicion is that respecting pronouns and using them when appropriate was always intended to be required by the CoC, and we've just never been able to enforce it due to see above

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