Tavern on the Meta

12:30 AM

Is there an SE Discord? I thought I saw someone mention it

@Stevoisiak not as far as I know

Individual communities often have off-site chat resources

ArtOfCode

12:56 AM

Ha, it's 1AM UTC and I've already hit the MSE repcap

@ArtOfCode I have managed it a few days in a row

I'd trade it all for things going back to normal :/

1:09 AM

@Snow Do you want to talk first or just request reinstatement? Can you send an email to the usual place or fill in a contact form?

Happy to talk if you need it.

410

I had to read that twice before two sentences formed.

Also, is Randall trying to write using only the words with fewer than 5 letters?

A: An Update to our Community and an Apology

1:35 AM

3

There are already a lot of responses here, and a lot of comments regarding the lack of "apology" in your apology. I doubt I would have very much to add, so instead I will quote the brilliant Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg. Considering that we just passed Rosh Hashana, and in fact that was explicitly p...

One of the few perks of the current crisis is I get the pleasure of reading lovely, considered and wise bits of writing

Emilie

@JourneymanGeek agreed. I'm totally ignorant of Judaism except some of the more common symbols and the idea of tshuva I read about recently on Monica's blog. I really like it.

1:54 AM

So am I!

user58

2:34 AM

The RaDaR is usually a treat to read.

LinkBerest

2:47 AM

AviD has a really a few interesting answers on Mi yodeya. I actually love the answers given to questions on how to respond to "but another Jewish person eats insert food item and says its Kosher - so I know you can eat this: why are you lying to me" type questions. (and yes, I get asked this type of question all the time....like just today for instance).

Avid's security stuff is good too ;p

even has a law named after him!

LinkBerest

Yeah, I work on different security protocols (systems?) then I see Avid write about but when I do find an overlap I usually see Avid is the OP/answerer

One of my old questions went from being heavily downvoted to getting out of the hole yesterday

LinkBerest

sigh get back from the holidays, see SE is proving I needed to remove my actual name from all my contributions, look here to see discussion and just see more of the same. - not worth it anymore. I'm out.

3:07 AM

Out of curiosity, have they been talking about a lawsuit?

No

Heh, Monica's such a nice person.

I think we're still on the Bargaining stage of grief

sometimes anger

The thing is, we don’t know what happened on TL. And the only thing that post claims is that she violated the CoC

@Nat honestly - a lot of us are still hoping people are willing to de-escalate

and make things ... well less ugly

3:12 AM

@JourneymanGeek Yeah; we've got a good community. It's actually pretty nice to see such civility about it.

Hey guys, why did Tim Post lock the Sara Chipps' post?

And more importantly, can it be unlocked?

user194636

Edit war

@Marc.2377 The content notice says content dispute

Silly edits

The only thing I could see becoming a suit is the relicensing. But I don’t think that’s what anyone’s really focused on right now

3:13 AM

Also no

@Marc.2377 The site is short of active mods, and its something that should be left alone for now.

Oh. :( And it is not possible to add an answer as long as it is locked right?

Nope

I think that post has plenty of answers right now

There's a short book worth of answers already

It's already the most down-voted post on Meta too. It surpassed their announcement about introducing ads to the StackExchange network pretty quickly.

ζ--

3:15 AM

tbh the comment threads there have gotten too long; it's probably better discussed in chat, unless things cool off significantly first, or a new thread is opened by SE employees

That's not always a good thing

After reading all of the answers I still wrote my own, and it is important for me to post it. I have it on a text file at hand and will keep, when it is unlocked (and I do hope it is), I'll post it.

user194636

Locking a question body should be separate from locking its comments and the ability to add an answer.

It should

but exceptional situations...

@PaulWhite yep, definitely.

3:16 AM

I’m pretty sure that’s something mods have asked for before

user194636

Another long standing feature request ignored in favour of more pressing issues.

Plan is to unlock in the morning. Even if that gets forgotten, it's only a 24 hour lock.

I wonder why they posted it? Like, what'd they expect would come of it?

@Stevoisiak as much as you may feel like that (and I don't quite disagree), locking the post to prevent new answers does feel like censorship.

thanks @Catija.

user194636

@Catija Personally I would have rolled back to revision one and added a note at the bottom to say that any further edits would result in the question and its answers being locked for x period.

3:18 AM

I think mods just don’t want to deal with it

user194636

As it is, people that didn't mess with the question are preventing from voting, commenting, or answering for 24 hours.

You can still vote on answers at least

user194636

But far be it from me to suggest the company don't think things through before acting.

@Nat that's a question for the rear view mirror

I think it probably should have been locked, it was kinda devolving into personal attacks

user194636

3:20 AM

Sometimes if you post something controversial you have to accept some time will be tied up moderating that Q & A.

@PaulWhite true

@PaulWhite I'm pretty sure people at SE have home lives, and don't want to moderate the post over night

and that needs a bit of planning

cause god I love pulling up that kinda stuff sometimes ;p

The problem is, the people moderating aren’t necessarily the people who posted it

user194636

@meagar Well then they should have posted a proper apology? More seriously, there are community mods to help out on meta.se.

3:21 AM

@PaulWhite uhm

Monica was a MSE mod

@PaulWhite ... two of them

user194636

@JourneymanGeek A bit of planning you say? You should feature request that.

user194636

@JourneymanGeek Yep, aware. And so were you.

It seems a little unfair to expect the ones that are left to handle this

@StephanS after reading every single one of the answers, I strongly disagree - and even then, personal attacks should be dealt on a case-by-case basis. Keep in mind Sara Chipps is SE staff - director of public QA. it's part of her job to face strongly criticism - as long as they are civil. And they have been.

3:22 AM

@PaulWhite and and well

I didn't feel like I could handle this

and could do more without a diamond

I actually plan.

user194636

Fully understand your position.

I have no idea how this would go

@Marc.2377 That’s because the uncivil things have been deleted

There has been some horrible vitriol

I'm glad it is working then.

@PaulWhite ... because people read notes? :P

3:23 AM

But this seemed the best place to help my community

should we really be using Stack Exchange?

Well here we are

@Catija After I added a mod note on one of Sarah's answers asking people to please stop flagging, I believe we ended up getting more flags

I’m surprised more people haven’t been discussions it on Twitter

user194636

@Catija They certainly don't when they're not there 😋

3:24 AM

@Catija I thought so, but I couldn't find sources

@Rob Sounds about right.

And you wouldn't be asking this question if you didn't have the slightest hope things would work out

you'd be hanging out on reddit or twitter saying how horrible things are

Yeah, there's hope.

I think it's too late for things to work out

the damage is done

I doubt that even a bad resolution would drive off everyone instantly, though. I think it'll just make people think less of this site, then be more willing to move on as soon as they see an alternative.

3:25 AM

@StephanS then there's no point in asking

user194636

Something that's been bugging me for a couple of days. Is the company SO or SE?

Its SE now

they snuck it past us?

SE

The company has been Stack Exchange Internet Services for ages

SE inc

3:26 AM

@PaulWhite StackExchange, I think. Used to be StackOverflow back when it was a programming-Q&A, then they expanded it out to be a larger network.

user194636

> The Stack Overflow Network is a set of related Internet sites and other applications for questions and answers (also referred to herein as the “Network”), owned and operated by Stack Exchange, Inc. (“Stack Overflow”, “we” or “us”), a Delaware corporation.

... I'm a bit of an optimist and... this is probably going to ... uh... seem odd coming from me but... This is going to pass. We may be weaker for it... we may be stronger. If we work together, we should be stronger. If we fracture, we'll be weaker.

but they did buisness as stack overflow initially and during the days when SO was basically the only thing that mattered

user194636

It just occurred to me to actually click the "legal" link.

@PaulWhite The company is Stack Overflow.

3:27 AM

@Catija "working together" requires the company to do it too (I'm not blaming you specifically of course, sorry if that came across as harsh)

user194636

@Catija er it says "Stack Exchange, Inc." Now I'm more confused.

@Catija there's this japanese art of fixing broken crockery with gold and epoxy...

@NobodyNada it does

I work for "Stack Overflow" my business cards say "Stack Overflow".

@JourneymanGeek oh, I love that stuff

@Shog9 I did a night shift, and I can't remember what its called

I DO know its not a curb though

3:28 AM

Oh hey, it’s shog

Kintsugi

Kintsugi (金継ぎ, "golden joinery"), also known as Kintsukuroi (金繕い, "golden repair"), is the Japanese art of repairing broken pottery by mending the areas of breakage with lacquer dusted or mixed with powdered gold, silver, or platinum, a method similar to the maki-e technique. As a philosophy, it treats breakage and repair as part of the history of an object, rather than something to disguise. == Origin == Lacquerware is a longstanding tradition in Japan, and at some point kintsugi may have been combined with maki-e as a replacement for other ceramic repair techniques. While the process is...

The company name in our offices is Stack Overflow...

@Catija I blame your old marketing department for that 🤣

@NobodyNada :D No worries.

Also signs cost money ;p

3:29 AM

I think about that whenever I look at the scars on my face. If only I had some gold staples...

I thought I remembered something about going back to "Stack Overflow" as the company name... I may have dreamed it.

I'm sure there's gold tattoo inks.

maybe a grill...

not big on tattoos

user194636

It just gets confusing. I want to differentiate quickly and easily between Stack Overflow (the site) and SO/SE Inc. the company.

3:29 AM

If the community manager thing dosen't work out, shog could be a rapper... ;p

@PaulWhite Hence me calling them SE Inc... unless I'm miffed ....

then they're SO inc ;p

shog misunderstands and becomes door-to-door salesman

Of wrappers?

@PaulWhite ... Yeah. I wrote an internal team post trying to encourage people to be conscientious about it... Uh. Not sure if anyone reads it but it's there.

naw, I just knock a lot

user194636

Only working in malls at Christmas time, putting cheerfully-coloured paper around presents.

user194636

3:31 AM

@Catija What did you recommend? Saying SO versus SO Inc.?

Shog goes to jail for taking "burn the house down" literally

While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, as of some one gently rapping, to sell me a DVD, "Lenore"

I find it interesting how when individual SE employees chat here, people know not to take it as the word of SE

user194636

Do you mean SO?

@Stevoisiak well you're not always "on duty"

3:33 AM

@Shog9 xkcd.com/133 .

One of the former CMs and I have a slightly similar cultural background

@PaulWhite Just to ... make it clear. The example I used was:

> As a company, Stack Overflow is ready for another successful decade helping people find answers to their questions, whether they're about programming, chemistry or the plot of the newest superhero film.

@Shog9 love the "rapping", just don't marry your cousin

And if they're talking about the network, to use SE.

and we used to hang out on chat and talk about yogurt rice and stuff

user194636

3:33 AM

@Catija Ok thanks, I will do that.

I feel like, for example, Google engineers don’t always get the same luxury

@Stevoisiak SE is tiny

and they kinda still have a few really nice cultural quirks

@JourneymanGeek Fair point

I don't think there's anything stopping us from talking about yogurt rice

user194636

Also do SE employees get paid by the ellipsis?

3:34 AM

@Stevoisiak they just need to apologize for killing Reader and all will be good between us.

@Shog9 I miss reader :/

user194636

Didn't they do something evil with Gmail as well?

@Shog9 I miss Inbox

inbox

@PaulWhite I took a punctuation personality quiz one time... It told me I was an ellipsis.

3:35 AM

@PaulWhite yes, but... They changed the pay-scale and now the three dots only count as 1 character. As usual, Unicode ruins everything.

@Stevoisiak ME TOO.

bundles... sigh

user194636

Inbox! Thanks all

I’ve never found an email client that just worked as well as Inbox

I mainly know of this from all the tears on twitter ;p

(don't get Shog talking about Wave)

It’s like when Sunrise got bought by Microsoft

3:36 AM

@Catija wave was a problem looking for a solution

Lost both my favorite email app and calendar app

user194636

Got ninja'd typing a message about Unicode. Chat sucks.

And honestly Reader is why I don't trust big companies for anything ;p

Wave was a solution. To everything. War, famine, hangnails, you name it - Wave solved it.

@Shog9 One of my Slack pet peeves is that it converts three dots into a single character so if you're expecting to have to backspace three things, you've deleted half of the previous word along with the dots.

3:37 AM

I don't even remember what Wave was supposed to do... other than be multimedia rich and somewhat realtime?

I... dislike slack

@Catija see, Wave didn't do that.

I’m nervous about Discord being next, based on how little money they are supposedly making

@Rob they were trying to sell it as what email would have been if it were created 20 years later... collaborative editing stuff...

user194636

Why do people so dislike semicolons and the various 'dashes' available?

3:38 AM

@Catija which is what they sell slack as...

@Catija My Slack doesn't do that

@PaulWhite ;;;

People generally don't know how to properly use semicolons.

user194636

@JourneymanGeek Oh shush little doggy

@Catija Oh, right. I forgot about the collaborative part of it

3:38 AM

Are you using a font with ligatures or something?

@meagar ... are you on a Mac?

Yeup

... I bet it's apple... FUUUU

Hey, I use dashes - sometimes unnecessarily, as overly-long parentheticals that I forget to close. too

lol

3:39 AM

@Catija I'm on a Mac, my slack does it

I’m getting flashbacks to the Apple text icon

Oh, wait, @meagar are you using the browser based one or the actual app?

user194636

Unclosed parentheses really annoy (some people

... you know I can fix that...

@Catija Actual app

3:39 AM



The actual app is just the browser app in its own browser no?

...some people, what, now?

@meagar Hmmm... I give up.

yes, it's like the browser version only with extra suck

@JourneymanGeek If that's the case, you can't use userscripts.

3:40 AM

uhm...

user194636

@Stevoisiak That's a neat little box you have there

If you are on a Mac/iPhone, that’s the Apple Logo. If you’re anywhere else, it’s a crapshoot.

... As you may have guessed, Shog's not a fan of the app.

I'm just not a fan of apps period

The app's evil anyway.

user194636

3:40 AM

There's an app?!

Electron (software framework)

Electron (formerly known as Atom Shell) is an open-source framework developed and maintained by GitHub. Electron allows for the development of desktop GUI applications using web technologies: It combines the Chromium rendering engine and the Node.js runtime. Electron is the main GUI framework behind several notable open-source projects including Atom, GitHub Desktop, Light Table, Visual Studio Code, and WordPress Desktop. == Architecture == Electron applications are composed of multiple processes. There is the "browser" process and several "renderer" processes. The browser process runs ...

based on that

For reference:

The SE app is good... Though, apparently I can't get a new iPhone because it will break horribly.

@Catija I run that on web

@Catija y'all need to decide on that someday ;p

Q: How can I display the  (U+F8FF, Apple logo) character on Windows?

69

In Apple's marketing materials, the company often refers to the Apple Watch as "Watch". If that last sentence displayed as "Watch", congratulations! You're probably using an Apple device. To demonstrate, here's what the Wikipedia page for Apple Watch looks like on an iPad. Here's what that s...

user194636

3:41 AM

@Catija I works pretty well on my SE with iOS 13.x.x

I wrote Windows native software for over a decade, I know how easy it is to really screw things up even if you know what you're doing - if you're writing a native app in JavaScript, I don't trust you to know what you're doing on my PC.

@PaulWhite Hmmmm... Glorfindel posted a bug report that looked pretty critical...

;p

Actually.. there's not an app that runs on desktop, is there? I've yet to actually download anything from the Windows 10 Store since Windows 10 came out just to see what the store was..

@Catija and you do still have someone who can write IOS apps...

user194636

3:42 AM

@Catija Well some of the text links are too big granted but I know what they are and rarely used them anyway

@Nat slack.com/downloads/windowshttps://slack.com/downloads/windows

user194636

As a way to browse and whatnot it's fine

The SE app mostly works on iOS 13, but some of the text is broken

Q: Action names in post menu cut off in iOS 13

7

I just updated my iPhone 7 Plus to iOS 13 tonight and noticed that the post menu in the Stack Exchange app became close to unreadable, because the font/text is too large to be properly displayed. Luckily we can still recognize the icons... (Yes, app development has been frozen for quite a whil...

bug ios-app

user194636

Yes that.

3:43 AM

@Catija On my system, the behavior is governed by the "Use smart quotes and dashes" pref in System Preferences->Keyboard->Text

@NobodyNada thank you for reminding me to turn that off

@Shog9 That looks kinda neat!

@NobodyNada Confirmed... it's not Slack, it's that setting.

not my intention, but actually way cooler than the intended page

user194636

I still maintain that with 6-8 days of development, SE chat could have taken over the world

user194636

3:45 AM

MS Teams and Slack are just awful for me

SE chat becomes the new IRC

@PaulWhite probably, if we'd gotten in at the right time

Maybe if we still had balpha.

we need a side scroller on our 404 page though. That's the killer feature.

user194636

Yes life gets tougher when good people leave

3:46 AM

@Shog9 just redirect to the google dinosaur game

@Stevoisiak We all needed a break.

> Why are they spending so much time on the 404 pages?

user194636

404 pages are essential

@Shog9 tbh its still one of those platforms where I keep missing features elsewhere

user194636

intangibles

3:47 AM

@JourneymanGeek Marc & balpha really put some love into the details

@Shog9 no one else gets replies right

and of course the starwall

The ... easter eggs occasionally get in the way of actual searching.

also, the nice thing about stalled development... My userscripts don't break constantly.

user194636

Not constantly, no

the easter eggs are better than searching

user194636

3:48 AM

this is fine will never stop being useful

Just dramatically and lethally?

user194636

Regularly or frequently, perhaps.

Considering search in chat is... kinda wonky...

user194636

Personal experience: I usually find the thing I want with search chat on the first go

user194636

I find it much more successful than main site search anyway

3:49 AM

Only if you're searching for a single word or exact phrase.

user194636

Yes. My searches are the best searches.

@Catija to its defence...

search is a little wonky

user194636

Have to work with it.

Also... the user search is...

other than the thing that suggests similar questions

3:50 AM

Oh, the user search. Search for every user ever, rather than the ones in the room :D

user194636

Google search also works well for public transcripts

user194636

@Catija Oh yeah that broke didn't it

user194636

Type quickly lol!

Very quickly!

user194636

Things randomly get worse over time. Like image upload for example.

user194636

3:52 AM

A little while back it started taking 5-15 seconds.

user194636

It used to be impressively fast.

And one-boxing.. my only way to see twitter at work

At least now I can easily find everyone's chat ids.

user194636

@Rob Oh yeah that was a sad loss indeed.

I'm not sure twitter oneboxes are fixable.

user194636

3:53 AM

😥

With a big enough hammer

any problem is a pile of rubble?

user194636

Does it still work if you quote an old one-boxed tweet?

@Catija Oh, was it something on twitter's side that changed?

No. Ours.

Hmm... out of curiosity, what changed to make it unfixable?

user194636

3:54 AM

balpha could fix it

I don't know how to explain it, I just heard we poked something.

Then BOOOM

user194636

That reminds me of my old Commodore 64

"The twitterater 2000 just exploded"

user194636

cogs and feathers everywhere

4:02 AM

Speaking of which

There's ad supported notice boards in my neighbourhood

Had this gem

uberising?

user194636

looks like spam

user194636

did you flag it?

Alas no

And no adblock for real life

@Catija yup

not true... there's some special glasses that block all screens, apparently... probably not CRTs, if I had to guess...

4:07 AM

Can't stop old fashioned analogue spam though :(

One of the downsides of living in an apartment block... all the mailboxes are in one room. So they only need to spend a few minutes to drop 100+ notices in boxes, rather than having to walk/drive for hours

Funny thing is Uber closed here

Do you have grab?

Yup

And go jek

Haven't heard of that one

But grab is amazing for tourists in SEA

My home city of San Diego implemented its own local ride app, following in the footsteps of Austin

4:16 AM

No more (or less) getting taken for a ride (hah) by taxi drivers

I used RideAustin once and the driver was thanking me profusely for choosing local

Sea? Seattle?

South east asia

Ah. That makes more sense.

4:34 AM

@Catija My broader region ;p

So, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Phillippines, thailand, and I suppose more recently Myanmar, Liaos, Vietnam etc count too

Wait... You're in Asia? I thought you were in South America!

._.

:P

I suppose that's almost better than people thinking we're part of china ;p

@Rob Go Jek is indonesian

Oh, okay. Haven't been to Indonesia yet

4:36 AM

started off with motor bike taxis is memory serves

since there's not much competition, they're trying here

The only problem with grab is... they give you a phone call before accepting the ride to confirm you booked it. Except, they don't usually speak English and I don't speak their language :D

At least, that was the case in Thailand

Oh

here was all through the app

Yeah, everything was in the app, but we always got a call just before them accepting the ride

Payment was in cash too, not via the app

I admit to being surprised the ads were in English.

But the big draw was that the app decided the price, not the driver

4:38 AM

@Catija Its the common language here

its a mix of those and government propaganda

I remember talking to Andy a week ago or so about thinking that Singapore was one of those countries where English was actually the primary language, despite it not being native to the region.

I didn't actually confirm that.

That is correct ;p

Colonize all the things!

Well actually there were a few quirks

Silly British.:P

4:41 AM

We were a crown colony (as opposed to a protectorate)

so lots of brits

also chinese majority and fairly diverse

So naturally we use the language no one actually has native ;p

Are there many Brits still around?

not really

user194636

Wouldn't the British colonise rather than colonize?

5:19 AM

Yes

@Catija For most part, the british presence petered around around the 60s

... Hopefully they didn't leave their clothes behind...

Sorry for being off-topic: I'm not sure why this got closed as unclear: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/334297/…

Uhm. Thankfully no

I have no idea what we would do with that many Jodphurs and Pith Helmets

@rene you mean on topic

I've thrown it a reopen vote

@JourneymanGeek no, I assumed this room was still raging about an appology

I think that's mostly done.

We could uberise the whole process.

5:24 AM

@rene For what it's worth, I voted to leave open in the queue back before it was closed.

@JourneymanGeek In 6 to 8 hours? Wow ...

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I assumed you would.

@rene People are tired? ;p

possible

I'm curious to what would be a good answer to that

Nog Shine

5:36 AM

@rene Perhaps the users who voted to close needed more information and context on what issues OP noticed and where they noticed.

@NogShine could be. I obviously have enough context with the examples already given.

user351483

5:50 AM

@Catija I'll use the contact form. Damned these sleepless nights.