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9:00 PM
I know nothing ;)
Maybe catija rustled the rusted mechanism that wasn't working
Ahahaha, appreciated :)
Thanks, all.
I'm assuming y'all don't have this:
Dangit. I got lost in my drives finding my screenshot
9:01 PM
I got this instead
@Catija Yep we do
Need to be logged in to se.com and go to own profile page to see that link
@CalvT Ah... well, @Aza That's how you do it.
Syncs up from the oldest network profile.
9:02 PM
@Oded I get to choose. :D
@Catija Yeah, that's the one I was using. Odd. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
@Oded Think you can pick now
i lost an arm, oops
Ah, that changed since my days :D
@Aza \\
Markdown escapes one backslash
@Oded hey, nothing wrong with a retro gamer attitude ;)
9:04 PM
kids these days
So, where was I. Right. @Gwideon the second thing is that unfortunately the terms "welcoming" and "fair" and such have become a bit infamous because many people with invalid arguments have resorted to using such terms accompanies with dismissive "this is why u suck" remarks.
Maybe I should add that to What Kills Meta, but not before Shog needs to increase the limit for meta.SE
that is sad.
@Gwideon Inorite
why do people feel the need to attack others. I get criticism and stuff but being dismissive and attacking someone personally is just..... horrible
Same goes for "freedom of speech". Thankfully, it's not as annoying because XKCD already gave us something to link to on that one.
9:07 PM
The whole affair is sad. And as far as I can see there were no personal attacks. That isn't what this is about.
well I'm less talking about the mods and more about the comments
@Gwideon Hurt people hurt people.
@Oded Gwideon was being general, not about the recent drama
People (and other animals) lash out when in pain.
@Oded My version is cooler.
9:09 PM
And a quote too.
From someone. I dunno. Einstein, can you take this one too
I think I should shut up
Seems to be a book
@Gwideon why?
@Gwideon What?
I'm starting to ramble
No, that position is officially taken by me
9:10 PM
I don't know if it's fair to reduce this incident to an animalistic instinct to lash out when injured. I've seen many deliberate efforts to inflame outrage; leading questions, hostility, aggressive language, etc. It's hard not to believe that those thought-leaders aren't driving the depth of hostility.
Ah, trolls be be trolls.
@Aza That comment was not about the recent drama.
@M.A.R. Understood. Back to work with me.
5 mins ago, by M.A.R.
So, where was I. Right. @Gwideon the second thing is that unfortunately the terms "welcoming" and "fair" and such have become a bit infamous because many people with invalid arguments have resorted to using such terms accompanies with dismissive "this is why u suck" remarks.
The popcorn has been consumed in copious amounts.
9:10 PM
Biggest problem
But it's okay
My stance on popcorn is
in The Meta Room on Stack Overflow Chat, Sep 26 at 8:08, by M.A.R.
They probably intuitively understand that popcorn is just fried wood in oil.
Oh, no, actually I think my remark still applies. Those efforts are what have made "welcoming" and "fair" into cheap words in a public eye.
People are deliberately seeking to undermine, not build. Terms like "welcoming," "fairness," "unity" etc. are victims of those efforts.
@Aza That quote is a general remark. I've actually seen it more often used for deliberate outrages.
Doesn't need much analyzing. It was just a philosophical pause. Looks at all the dangling cameras
Aaaaand cut.
I just realized. Sneezing is God's "cut". Out hearts stops for a fraction of a second when sneezing.
I dunno why that's necessary but it's a cool fact. Which I never fact-checked. That's very me of me.
That's a very nice existential skeleton crisis image. Which definitely has to do with sneezing.
9:17 PM
I think this gender pronoun policy is unenforcable.
of course it is unforceable
It's not unenforcable
I also feel a French Revolution in it
It's unrealistic and extremely hard to enforce every single case, but it's technically possible
9:18 PM
@PrincessOlivia Yeah. Unenforceable.
put it this way: if a company wants to help the community be less transphobic they can add tools and teach the community be better
> If You Do Keep Your Eyes Open During a Sneeze, They Will Pop Out of Your Head
It's also way too strict, so there'd be a lot of cases
if the community wants to pay lip-service and do nothing, it writes it in the CoC
9:19 PM
@M.A.R. no, that would imply it can't be enforced at all.
@Sklivvz 1) Actually, no one can make obligatory to talk to something with what you want to. 2) De facto it was already so even until now, the only difference is that it is written. 3) There was also a "new CoC", not even this was really enforced
Also while I prefer they I’m actually not to strict on pronouns just to um let people know.
@PrincessOlivia You could also gather enough people to force every single person in a continent to vaccinate themselves and/or their children. Technically.
I'd prefer people not speak to me at all
@PrincessOlivia we'll need to see it, but it's likely to be so overreaching that if it is, in fact, applied (and not merely used randomly at will), it would make a lot of people leave
9:20 PM
(other than chat)
@KevinB hi, how can I help you
@M.A.R. exactly. That's in theory. Realistically, you'd get a lot, but far from all
@Sklivvz It's already making people leave
@PrincessOlivia yeah, I'm talking 20-30% though
I'm not convinced the Department of Truth didn't cause the fall of IngSoc.
9:21 PM
Tim Post said, a lot of thing is about to change. I don't think it so.
1984 references are so hyperbolic and exaggerated, but they're so fun!
Yeah i’ve Never seen another site try to enforce a policy like this. It’s usually taken on a a case by case bases
@peterh well, between Tim and you it's probably 50-50
@peterh I think they have more internal news about the next big thing than us
enforce: "you can't avoid using gender pronouns"
9:23 PM
Q: Perhaps someone from the Stack Exchange Leadership Team should hold a town-hall meeting?

rjziiWhile Sara Chipps, the Director of Public Q&A did make a response to the Stack Exchange Community, it has been very negatively received and the featured tag isn't enough to keep it visible to the broader network community. It also triggered additional resignations and suspensions of moderator act...

@AndrasDeak Why did we not get to chat often?
I haven't used any gender pronouns in the last 30m, am I in breach?
@Sklivvz we'd have to do the usual mind-reading routine first
Plus it’s usually already covered under a “be nice” type policy
how do you feel about Emmanuel Goldstein?
9:23 PM
@Sklivvz "you get a ban, and YOU get a ban..."
If I was in bleach I'd probably know it.
Then again, probably not.
Um can I get a summary of everything up to this point um it’s been hard to follow
@Gwideon I'm sorry but that's quite impossible
I could give you half a dozen links, but it would not help with your anxiety
@Oded that will end well
there have probably been literally tens of thousands of messages in various chatrooms since it started, and countless pages of meta posts all across the network
9:27 PM
@Sklivvz see the first comment ;)
and all of them are filled with angst
@Sklivvz I doubt it takes a lot of time before concerns are ignored again
@AndrasDeak yeah you’re right.
@Oded can you imagine what that would be in this climate
9:29 PM
@AndrasDeak An old man that probably didn't achieve anything and got assassinated as soon as he started disagreeing with Big Brother but nonetheless became the symbol of the resistance because of a made-up urban legend and the very fact that he's the most hated symbol among orthodox people made him the perfect symbol for resistance
That would be an opportunity for someone to train how to read and moderate chat under extreme stress
kind of a trial by fire
He'd also act as a really good filter to keep all orthodox belief out.
I like Nolan-y theories
@M.A.R. Are you sure it wasn't The Party who made him into a symbol?
@Oded honestly don't see it going any better
9:31 PM
@JourneymanGeek why?
It needs to get worse before it gets better
@AndrasDeak For every part of the Party mindset that seems to be bound by no rules or limitations, like craving power and acting humble against it, there needs to be a solid foundation in things they genuinely believed to be true.
It had to start from hypocrisy, not lies
It's the whole denial/anger/bargaining/acceptance thing
I’m gonna go
9:32 PM
as long as there is no apology (thus: there is no acceptance of the harm caused) then there can be no true healing
@Sklivvz but for who?
Cause I'm totally engrievened by this
Goldstein was a real person is my theory, because in the beginning some people needed to believe he was important so they could attribute all evil to him and begin to establish the doublethink principles of The Party.
makes sense
I went through that when I stopped working here
9:33 PM
@Gwideon be safe
@JourneymanGeek it does apply to you too I guess: "it can't be this bad"/"fuuuuuuuu"/"come on let's do a round table"/"screw it, not worth it"
@Sklivvz I accept its bad
@Sklivvz on the other hand quite frankly times like this bring out the worst in people
and the worst people
And I can't have that
Subtly cheese laugh
@Sklivvz What scares me more is that staff does not seem to acknowledge or accept how bad it is
"we'll put some new processes and it'll be fine"
meanwile the network is disintegrating so fast you can barely follow
9:49 PM
@Magisch but they are sorry to see it turn to dust
@Magisch I'm not really sure what's the plan
And there's a few things I'm seeing that I'm a bit confused by
(also holy carp, I'm surprised to see laura)
Old CM. One of the good ones.
@JourneymanGeek assuming good faith can do that to you ;)
also coming from our secret crypt
Not that there's any bad CMs, just excellentones
all CMs are best but some are bestest than the others
9:51 PM
@AndrasDeak and yet
I dont know what the gameplan is
this isn't blowing over
it's picking up steam
the damage done in this week will ripple for years to come even if they fix it right now
@Magisch I've seen a few sites lose their core
like the workplace
its usually quite a bad
there is nothing left
9:52 PM
If we stick with "good intentions toward those that agree with Monica's dismissal (if not the circumstances)" then this could all make sense as a way to evaporate problematic (and not hardline enough) elements from the community
oh going further back
the heart has been ripped out of that place
Was thinking SF
@AndrasDeak I've talked to a few people
I cannot be mad at them
For specific actions. sure
A: Perhaps someone from the Stack Exchange Leadership Team should hold a town-hall meeting?

MakotoThe only way this would work is if everyone agreed to put down their pitchforks or pointy implement of choice, and hear this from a neutral stance. I...don't see that happening in the short term. In fact, I see this as a prime chance for those who are just anti-Sara to simply throw her under th...

@JourneymanGeek I don't see how that ties in with what I said
9:54 PM
But they have and have acted in what they feel is best for their community too
@AndrasDeak this should not be a purge
also do you mean agree r disagree?
"Should not" as in "should not", or "should not" as in "I don't believe it is"?
@AndrasDeak I think we are both confusing each other.
@JourneymanGeek "Their community" I'm wondering if "Their community" doesn't include us
I should not believe it is
@Mgetz ooh
9:56 PM
There. Best of both worlds.
that is a hard talk
but I would hope not
@JourneymanGeek remember when I said this has deep roots, well that's the question that seems to lack an answer and has been outstanding since a long time back
Well, both yes and no.
@Mgetz so here's an interesting problem
We are part of that community but statistically insignificant.
9:57 PM
@JourneymanGeek yes, that's why I'm asking for clarification
and its cultural
Some of our desires would as well be shrugged off as those of statistical anomalies.
I believe that inclusiveness should be inherent
9:59 PM
And not something that ideally needs to be legislated
we set the rules of the road. We talk to each other
What bites is that volunteer effort is discarded as granted, and our effort is not seen as effort.
But the world is not ideal
We build shields, safe spaces for people
It's so impersonal. We're another data point, and not even a big one at that.
shields are great for hitting people on the head with
But I'd rather not have my safe spaces with 12 foot high fences topped with barbed wire
10:00 PM
@AndrasDeak That's the right way of thinking
@JourneymanGeek I agree, however if you go down the path of policy there will be winners and losers and the path of policy has been followed. They have tried to pretend to be solomon and split the baby but it's failed about as well as actually splitting the baby.
@JourneymanGeek As a dog, you really should get on the offensive.
@M.A.R. Dogs are love ;p
oh I thought it was a cute hedgehog in a hat, those 16x16 pixel avatars are hard to see
@user1306322 It's called Ashley. Ashley is a boy's name. In Singapore.
10:01 PM
@Mgetz the COC as written is in a sense a collaborative effort
@M.A.R. like the famous singer, Rick Ashley
there's also Ashley Birch from "Hey, Ash, watcha playing" youtube series (also voiced Tiny Tina in Borderlands 2)
We have owned it - though as with many things on SE it took loner than anyone realises to do
Q: Threshold experiment results: closing, editing and reopening all become more effective

Shog9This post details the outcome of an experiment that reduced the thresholds for closing and reopening questions to 3 votes on Stack Overflow. Warning: this post is looong. There is no "tl;dr". There is no summary. I've been thinking about this crap almost every day for 7 years, and I'll be damned ...

Go read this. I enjoyed it, and I needed it.
If you've read it
go read it again
pretty pictures
10:04 PM
6 messages moved to Trashcan
1 message moved to Trashcan
ye, illustrations are always welcome in statistics-heavy posts
So folks. TO add on to the pinned posts.
@ArtOfCode? WTH
@Art I miss the days we could move audit messages too. That was so meta.
Or did I imagine all that.
There's folks who are not nice out there. And they get attracted by drama like this
10:05 PM
@Oded we're not doing out-the-employee. We're not even looking like we're doing it.
@JourneymanGeek I like your apocalyptic tone.
Public knowledge
We're not even looking like looking like looking like.
I sure do love getting essays in my notifications about how trans people essentially care too much and should just relax.
@Oded in this situation ...
10:07 PM
Like, okay. Look. Here's the thing: this isn't just about Monica, and y'all know it. It maybe is, a little bit, but people wouldn't be this angry if they felt the issue were of any substance.
@Aza It is for me
And honestly you cannot speak for people who are not you
@JourneymanGeek same here.
@Oded a few of the staff have gotten doxxed and threatened in the past
10:08 PM
People are this ticked not just because a mod was terminated, but because they think the issue she was terminated for is silly. Not every person is gonna think this, but reading those comments on the trans/pronoun-related posts?
@Aza I disagree, though I also can't peek into alternate universes. I believe the reason this blew up is not because the percieved importance of the subject, but rather the circumstances in which Monica was sacked.
I'm not familiar with most other involved mods, and honestly not care yet that much about any CoC update.
@Aza and this situation brings out the worst in people
@Aza I think helping people realize this isn't just about this issue and they just generally shouldn't pass judgment or assume things about people in a much different situation could help wash the (perceived or not) political agenda off of it.
Anything that politicians touch stinks.
@Aza it's been building a loooooong time, this is just the latest incident
10:09 PM
Hey, that sounds familiar.
They don't just do it about Lavender (TIL) people, it's just this topic is the buzz today.
In an ideal world, it shouldn't be . . .
@M.A.R. Eh... Just about everything in life is political. The things that people tend to think aren't are usually in situations where they aren't affected by the specific politics.
@AndrasDeak precisely
First time I see the term Lavender.
Is it widely used?
Nope. First time too
10:10 PM
@Shadow it was used in the comments and posts a number of times in those hot posts just today
@Shadow I read about it years ago, then I forgot about it
@Shadow dunno first time too, but I instantly made the connection so it was fine.
@Mgetz sure, but so many terms...
@Shadow It's not widely used but I've seen it, it's not spurious or anything.
They just do the same horrible presumptions and pass judgment about people of a different financial status, culture, ethnicity, etc.
10:11 PM
to me (as a complete outsider, NB) it seems like a nice alternative to the alphabet soup
Well, TBH the letters get hard to pronounce after a while.
My username used to be PhMgBr and people complained all the time.
@Shadow I think that is a frustrating thing for people that want to be allies and get lost in the terminology to the point they give up. Then they get called bigots... and it goes bad from there
@M.A.R. and as a continuum of human identity is discovered there'd be more and more letters to add and keep track of
@AdamLear There are some things they touch more often. And they don't wash hands
I don't care for terms. If one asks to be addressed as a female, I'd do it, no matter if that person is male or female. If a person prefer same sex persons I'm totally fine with it. That's what I know, and for me it's enough. :)
But I'd still learn new terms as they arise, no problem.
10:13 PM
I like lavender more than queer, it doesn't have that negative alternate meaning of weird associated with it, so when I saw it used today I was pleasantly surprised
@user1306322 actually I agree with you, rainbow community works too for me
@user1306322 for now.... I suspect it might change if/when it will become widely used.
Yeah, no matter what year it is, previous negative connotations carry on for some people
although that does have a whiff of unicorns about it
Lavender for me is smell of a soap... well, was.
10:14 PM
@user1306322 also queer is a much more specific term as far as I know, as I understand lavender replaces all of LGBTQ+
Aye, that's the Q
@Shadow I think of soap and the great british bake off... and people over using it and having their baked goods called 'soapy'
@Mgetz lol
Have you had baked hat.
@Shadow rose has the same issue, that said apparently lemon and lavender is a good combo if done right
10:16 PM
Anyway..... what did I miss here? Anything important in the last 6 hours or so?
@Shadow Shog's close vote test results?
@Shadow Yes. All my messages are important.
and Town Hall suggestion for Sara on MSE
Wait what
And I posted a screenshot of someone complaining about leaking radiators
@AndrasDeak rofl
10:17 PM
Haha, good times
@M.A.R. car or heating?
@M.A.R. you are not @Bart
@Shadow how so?
@AndrasDeak sad joke
1 hour ago, by M.A.R.
user image
@Shadow Citation frigging needed
10:19 PM
@AndrasDeak it's.... like routine goes on while the place is on fire. So, funny in a way.
Hm, how does Bart talk
@Shadow Shog's happy place. We should find another experiment for him for a few more days
Uh, Dutch, Dutch things, Dutch waffles. Stick, Shtick, lightning.
I'm sure he has low voice.
Well, I picture him talk like Javier Bardem.
@Shadow Are you implying my voice is high pitched
Or are you implying that I'm loud thinks which one is worse
10:22 PM
Why not both?
@Shadow Go read his post. Amid all the crisis, it's always a nice read.
Ya know, like how in real life you're angry or frustrated, and talk to someone nice and calm down a bit
@AndrasDeak Uh, leave me out of that one.
That's definitely not gonna get into a rollback war (╯T_T)╯︵ ┻━┻
it's only a war after two rollbacks, and we're at 0
@AndrasDeak /sigh
10:25 PM
OK, rolling it back. Conflicts with author's questionable intent.
You know what, let me find more funny SE screenshots.
@AndrasDeak /atomic sigh
I dunno if Gems from SE is even being updated any more.
@joran Quantum sigh
@M.A.R. wanna take a quantum break lol
@M.A.R. I meant to imply "big", maybe should have gone with "nuclear"
10:27 PM
Oh, whoops.
atomic is bigger than nuclear
Gotta blur the names or something.
factor of 10000
I thought atoms were smaller than nucleus which... consists of atoms?
The nucleus is 10^-5 times smaller in radius than the atom
10:28 PM
@user1306322 nope
atom = nucleus + electrons
The atom has electrons around it behaving like a wave. Squashed all over the place.
my brain was thinking of the word particles :D
nucleus means "core" or "kernel", as in "of the atom"
@M.A.R. If I observe this sigh did it actually happen or is it a hisen sigh?
@Mgetz You can tell when it happened but never its momentum
10:30 PM
when goes with "how strongly" :P
btw do you guys know if you can add unpopped popcorn kernels to ramen? will they soak in the water or are they too dry
@AndrasDeak Nitpick.
10:30 PM
I think
I kinda like the dry corn in those "barely any vegetables" packets in cheap ramen and was thinking how to find similar corn to add more of it in a bowl
I have to first try that
ok my day is over, I'm out
Good . . . uh
@user1306322 with magic engineering imgur.com/gallery/e2nj0WV
10:32 PM
that's a cool device
it even reverses the cob at the end, always blows my mind
10:46 PM
@user1306322 those little dried up vegetables are the best, I personally enjoy the Peas
@Magisch I can only hope, not a single person-decision decides, what is a "personal attack". Just a half hour ago, I only asked from someone, if she is an internal or remote employee. Then I could not talk half an hour long.
@Magisch Furthermore, the current most vocal interpretation of some events, can be seen as at least serious errors made by some staff members. It is hard to talk about it, if there is no way to criticize them.
@Magisch Furthermore, you are not a mod, not an admin, not a staff. I doubt your legitimity to create any rule.
@peterh going forward you should look for the signs. If you see authoritative-looking people telling you not to press a matter, you should drop it
@AndrasDeak This mentality doesn't lead to anywhere. You can vehemently mis-interpret any context, and then expel anybody, but the result won't be very good even for you.
@peterh Hi, I'm a mod. I back up what Magisch said.
@peterh and I hate to break it to you but Magisch is a room owner here, so he has a lot of right to create rules
10:55 PM
> Thanks again to everyone who participated in this [3-vote close experiment]
@peterh I back up what mags said too
Does this include those whose questions were closed
You are welcome to criticise. You are not welcome to launch personal attacks, attempt to assassinate anyone's character, attempt to reveal or obtain anyone's personal information, etc etc etc.
@peterh I can manage
@peterh it also helps to link to particular messages when context is important
10:56 PM
@ArtOfCode Was it written to anywhere?
@peterh What?
@peterh so...
things are volatile
If we're asking folks not to do something - its because its needed
If you can't deal with that, and need written rules, basically - what any RO here requests ought to be heeded
^ that is the written rule
@ArtOfCode The rules of this room. If I interpret it well, somehow it appeared

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