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3:00 PM
@fbueckert They're a two edged sword. They allow easily curating content, and are necessary in certain amounts to allow other community actions, like deletion. Then again, they leave no way for the person on the receiving end to 'save face', nor have I ever heard they make the person on the receiving end feel comfortable, so they're not really polite ..
@Alex none :)
@ShadowWizard But that takes away half the incentive of posting such content...
@Tinkeringbell Criticism, at it's heart, isn't polite.
There's no way to really present criticism solidly without having it sting a little.
Yeah, otherwise
A: Can we have some site approved canned comments to match the new CoC and welcoming?

kjhughesCommon Preamble Dear Precious Snowflake, I apologize for my inability to help you. It is not your fault. It is mine. Entirely mine. I'm really sorry to bother you with anything short of an immediate answer, but perhaps please could you Custom Body lack of research did you try Google? ...

3:02 PM
@TimPost Something changed and every comment is viewed as part of an agenda now it seems
I've seen CMs say harsher things, I've seen users say harsher thing and I've said harsher things myself, but the backlash to that level is new
@Magisch That's easy; SE has lost the trust of its' curators.
So are you going to ruminate every time they do anything now?
I'm no stranger to doling out harsh criticism of SE myself but at some point it becomes unconstructive
"You should earn our trust back first" well what exactly does that entail short of throwing every current effort of theirs away?
@Magisch Ruminate? No. Call out when I feel curators are attacked? For sure.
3:05 PM
@fbueckert Sure. But there's still a difference between providing some kind of electroshock or using words... You don't just slap your kid, or send them to their room. You tell them, teach them, what they did wrong too. And as adults, you might even offer someone an opportunity at offering an explanation for their behaviour, or a way to apologize, a way to make things right again. Those make the other party feel like they have an opportunity to save some face, to keep some dignity or honor.
Downvotes really don't do that, so in a sense they're the most impolite way of leaving criticism
It's not about any one downvote being mean... that's where this is getting a bit wonky. Any one person can up or down vote... but at some point it seems to me that users should think ... huh... -8 it's off the front page now... that's probably enough. I don't need to add another downvote to this. Getting a post down to -30 is the problem, not any one vote.
meta is remarkably poor at allowing people to save face
I'm out. The negativity reached my limit already.
@Tinkeringbell How would you propose that work in an online system, where there is no face to face, and no way of gauging emotion?
stopping at -6 might be a start
or - whatever
3:07 PM
I will not endorse any system that doesn't limit upvotes to the same end.
I honestly dont think -30 is any added signal over -5 outside of more implied screw you
You don't. The community seems to, though.
Upvotes serve as a way of ranking posts too
As do downvotes.
@fbueckert Perhaps a good first step is working like Catija said, and start with ourselves, where, instead of just adding another downvote to the pile, we see that it's already off the frontpage, and instead we write an answer or comment explaining our disagreement
3:08 PM
downvotes sort of lose their utility after a few into the negatives
on main, you aint gonna try a -5 answer and you aint gonna try a -15 answer
lets be real here
which one of the incorrect answers is more incorrect is also not very useful
I've upvoted many a question precisely because I thought it had a disproportionate number of downvotes.
why do upvotes not losing their utility?
Because a +600 answer is above a +300 one
@Magisch And by artificially limiting downvotes, you're telling disagreers that their opinion means less than supporters.
do you?
3:09 PM
on a question, not answer
I think that's a surface level reading of the signal votes give at best
I'm not limiting close voters opinions by saying 5 is enough to close and no more can be added after that
@fbueckert There's a point there, stopping downvotes at an arbitrary number comes with the risk that you'll have to go back later to add yours anyway to counter a flood of positive ones... Though I don't really see that reasonably happening on the question that sparked this.
I think your position is rooted more in feelings than curation; I don't think we're ever going to come to an agreement.
We don't "super close" a question
3:10 PM
I missed a lot. And serious question... Why not kill meta as it is?
I'm waiting until that happen
It is murder anyway ...
@JourneymanGeek Because then we'd have no discussions like this left to have and mod ;)
A big problem with meta is it's basically a giant pile of technical and social debt
@JourneymanGeek Meta is fun!
3:11 PM
@Tinkeringbell If the opponent's voices are silenced, proponents should be, too.
I think reflecting on the feelings of the OP is valueable for both humanitarian reasons and because people who feel good about a site produce more and better content
which is what we want
If curation is still served then there is no harm in considering seconday effects of votes
@fbueckert Perhaps voting on discussions should be solely limited to answers then
More precisely - what would a meta designed from the ground up for it's goals looks like?
@Tinkeringbell No issues there. I don't mind a system that would prevent both.
Not one where you can downvote a bug report, thats for sure
3:12 PM
@Magisch since we treat everything as one type of post
@Magisch I erm. Have done that
As I've said before, things that SE should see, like bug reports, and pure support request, need to be side channelled to the point where we don't see them at all.
close as dupe if its already been reported, close as norepro if its a bad description, unclear if you cant make out whats reported, but why the downvote?
But a bug report is different from a FR is different from trying to alter site/network culture
a FR to alter site culture needs more differentiated and nuanced discussion then mere up and downvotes though
Seeing as you can get downvoted on meta for the most frivolous reasons
On the other hand- downvotes reflect user sentiment
3:15 PM
If you present an idea for the community, there should be a way to people, both for and against, to show that opinion without needing to invest into a solid argument as to why.
I could have written that FR with the exact same suggestion and reasoning in a way that wouldnt get downvote bombed, as could have most meta regulars. If the tone matters more then the suggestion itself or externalities then it's not a good way to judge FRs
Votes are the way to do that right now.
On the gripping hand.... Question downvotes are free
@fbueckert Eh. Lots of "bugs" aren't. The meta community is great at explaining how the system actually works or where the person's confused. :)
But tone does matter.
3:15 PM
@Magisch and that's knowledge we all suck at sharing
It annoys me that you have to hit a specific tone to get your posts considered on the merits on meta
You don't come to meta only for ranting.
From an outside perspective that feels arbitrary and unfair
@Magisch meta is inherently political
I accept that... And tbh totally take advantage where I can
@Catija Sure. But that exposes them to criticism, which is apparently super bad.
So if you don't want that, then you guys have fun with it.
3:17 PM
Yah, but new users have no real way of learning how to hit that tone except through trial and error. Lord knows I had to. It was annoyed and I was close to going somewhere else multiple times
Or else, Meta will become the same cesspool as Twitter is
@NoDistractionWizard technically there's options outside downvoting Twitter does not
setting aside the "I had to learn the hard way so you should too" for a second we ought to be doing a better job onboarding people onto meta
Yeah, literally: close Meta and replace with Twitter support.
@fbueckert Criticism isn't bad. No one has said that. The problem is that our current system is broken and we haven't helped y'all use it the way it was intended... so it's being used in a way that's less than optimal. Maybe it goes all the way back to "downvotes on FRs mean disagreement"... that probably was a bad choice... but we can work on fixing that to make Meta a more constructive place.
3:19 PM
The idea that we get 1 new users for every 100 we burn is disconcerting
@Magisch but that's true of any other community
@fbueckert You see things either black or white. Criticism isn't bad, it's the way some people and the SE system goes about it that can use improvement.
I personally know good, great even developers who like giving back but are scared off by SO's and SE's reputation and feel as a shark eat shark world
@Catija Well, rather than yelling at people using the system as it was designed, maybe change the system?
It's easy to dismiss when you're among like minded people here but they do have a point
3:20 PM
@fbueckert I mean... that's what Tim's talking about doing.
@Catija on the short term .. and both these options are harder than they sound... I wonder if adjusting the cost of a dv would help
@JourneymanGeek is it the rep penalty that hurts? or...?
Otherwise, just hide the score if it's negative (yeah, this FR again)
Either removing free question downvotes or removing the rep penalty
But we also would appreciate some... consideration... and understanding that the system is less than ideal and reconsider how you use it while we figure out how to fix it.
@NoDistractionWizard eh. The user will still feel it
Hiding stuff is an antipattern
@JourneymanGeek Would only fix MSE. There's no cost on per-site metas.
Or make rep-free like child meta, or...
(and that's assuming it fixed anything)
@Catija yup but MSE is a prototype
3:23 PM
I still maintain tim's comment wasn't that bad or harsh
It's that thing someone threw together in a garage and is running a decade later
I've read and written harsher myself without drawing criticism that I'm personally attacking people
It's an opinion
@Tinkeringbell No, there's nuance in there. But that gets destroyed when people using the system, "properly", are attacked for doing so.
@Catija Well, at least you can just 'abandon ship' on a question like the one that was involved in the start of this discussion, and don't see the downvotes everytime you open your achievements dialogue to see other sites achievements
3:24 PM
I disagreed with the question but chose to post an answer over downvoting
@Catija So is it absolutely necessary to lambast users using the system as designed?
And still see downvotes as a rep thing days after.
Just change the system instead of yelling at people using it.
@fbueckert in theory....
asking people to use consideration while they work out changes isn't an unfair ask, imo
3:25 PM
That's one of the ways I use meta on a site as a mod
Well, I believe SE can disable downvote on MSE at any time (like making downvote rep threshold to 1 million)
Polite yelling but yelling nonetheless
Make all Meta posts anonymous?
@fbueckert Tim edited that comment, the yelling is gone. So perhaps you move on too? Please? I understand feeling like you're yelled at sucks, but it's now more of a stringent request to think before you act... So let's focus on solutions now?
@Alex eh...
3:26 PM
I'm Anonymous Otter. You're Anonymous Jellyfish. -- support.google.com/docs/answer/2494888?hl=en
@JourneymanGeek There are ways to disagree without telling people they should feel bad about themselves.
@Tinkeringbell Yelling's still there. It's just toned down and redirected after being called out on it.
@fbueckert sure but sometimes they do
And even as an employee he has a right to an opinion and the need to use whatever tools he has on hand
@JourneymanGeek Yep. And you can be guaranteed any non-staff member saying that would've been suspended.
@fbueckert ... So ... here's the thing... if you felt attacked, I apologise... but derailing the discussion by policing tone is... just distracting from the real problem. We'd like to work through this but... possibly ironically... there's real concern that discussion of something like this would fall prey to the very system we're trying to fix. If a simple question about changing the tone of a few system messages reaches -30, what do you think we'd see if we opened a discussion on reworking meta?
@fbueckert naaaaw
And tbh we have the full right to yell at any employee be who steps over the line
3:29 PM
@Catija There was no need to derail the discussion; it was literally right there. But it goes part and parcel with what you are trying to do, and how you view your volunteers.
@Catija I'd expect it to be heavily upvoted and receive many wonderful suggestions as answers?
@Catija heh. If I think it's a good idea in the morning.... I might take the chance on that
There's no good faith going on whatsoever; just another, "Welp, it's the meta mob, so who cares what they think?"
@Catija Probably something of similar intensity to this: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/316934/…
reading bad faith into what staff writes is how honest communication between them and us dies
@Magisch It's...literally in black and white.
3:31 PM
I read that comment myself and I don't see it
But honestly, I'm already in the 4th camp. So, please just ignore my opinion.
I feel like it's aimed at me because I too have indulged the thoughtless pile on downvote aka "this is not what I want, -1" so it got me to reconsider a bit
@NoDistractionWizard wait. 4th camp?
@Magisch Tim doubled down when I called him on it.
It's not an insult and not insinuating that I'm a bad person or mentally deficient
3:32 PM
So, yes, if that's not bad faith, then I'm blind.
@Magisch I dunno ... A post on changing meta isn't another Twitter scandal? And that post scored positive for a long time, before a lot of people suddenly decided that this was a scandal and they should downvote because of what prompted the discussion instead of the discussion itself. And as an IPS mod, I find that hugely dissatisfying too.
A: Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late?

Mysticial Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late? I hate to pile on, but I couldn't resist summarizing the problem. And I apologize ahead of time for any potentially offensive language that I might use. Basically there are 4 camps of users on Stack Overflow: The "caretakers" who want to keep the...

How about shut down Meta for a week and see what happens?
@Tinkeringbell Maybe the new licensing thing is a better comparison
thats somewhere at -300 iirc
3:33 PM
@Alex Can we make it coincide with my summer holidays? I'd hate to miss anything ;)
@NoDistractionWizard tbh if I was in that camp I'd be gone
@NoDistractionWizard Here's the thing... writing for meta is scary, particularly as a CM. Recently it's been taxing and hard and... we're all kinda exhausted... We love and believe in SE and the people who make it amazing... but a lot of times it feels like we're spinning our wheels. We want to do things to make the system what we've been dreaming it could be and we're finally able to start working on that but we've lost the trust of so many of our users and getting it back is... hard and slow.
@Tinkeringbell Just give me the dates...
And it's even harder when we're afraid to tell you about stuff. I mean... even stuff that's good and a win... we hold close to our vests until it's five minutes away from being turned on.
I'd at best hand in my diamond, yell at people in private over various frustrations And just leave. Maybe just meta... Maybe the network
3:34 PM
Well, if writing for meta is scary even for CM, then I really think meta is a lost cause.
@fbueckert Yeah, well... There's calling someone out and there's calling someone out, and you're not exactly the kind of person that I've often seen being kind in voicing your disagreement with SE or CMs
I dont get what is so insulting about tims comment or the follow up
It really feels like it's just because its a cm
@NoDistractionWizard eh
@Magisch So, that's an interesting situation. The votes there, I think, are from frustration... both the IPS-specific case and the "we've been complaining about this for years, you don't need another meta post to just fix this shit now... go do it".
@Tinkeringbell Asking if that was necessary doesn't seem all that provactive.
3:35 PM
Actually it's harder as a mod than it was as a regular MSE user
@fbueckert Immediately following that up with an accusation of demonizing downvoters is.
And my words are not going to be taken as reflecting what SE thinks
The best that can happen is I effect positive changes
I ... I think we need to take a step forward and extend some latitude to CMs and staff and give a bit more then we currently are if we want to continue forward in a good way
Or lose a load of imaginary internet points
yeah trust needs to be rebuilt and all but staff are still all humans and at some point a compromise needs to be made. We can't be miserable at each other hoping someone will give
3:38 PM
If you're a CM though.. Every comment and post
@Tinkeringbell That is true. Yes, that's not kind, and it shows my frustration with SE.
.... Well... See the last hour or so ;p
I've posted 26 questions on Meta. If there was no Meta I couldn't have posted them. But my experience on Stack Exchange would be barely different.
@Alex I'd probably never leave SU ;p
In that case...
3:39 PM
The entire comment was unnecessary; it's what kicked off this whole kerfuffle, and, well, it could've just been not said.
@fbueckert It's a self reinforcing downward spiral, and someone has to break it. There's also some huge frustrations on SE's part, and both users and SE need to work one breaking the cycle. Not reacting in kind may be a good start...
@fbueckert point is though
I think you might be reading into the who as much as the what
@Tinkeringbell Thats exactly right
@Tinkeringbell So the unpaid volunteers have to be more reasonable than the people that get paid? That doesn't seem all that feasible to me.
screaming collectively into the void is cartharthic but only makes us less listened to
3:41 PM
@JourneymanGeek Anyone else, and it would've just been flagged. Who says something is as important as what.
@fbueckert well... She is technically an unpaid volunteer...
@fbueckert I feel your frustration, but let's move on and keep doing what you believe is correct
@fbueckert yup and we would handle a flag for a cm the same as a regular user. And let them know that it's an issue
@fbueckert The people that get paid have a responsibility too, but that doesn't mean that if one of them has a bad moment that's the sign for everyone that's unpaid to go nuts too. Not that I did not just tell you your reaction was too much, I also mentioned to Tim his comment was.
@Tinkeringbell Yeah...."But he started it!" isn't a very good reason for it.
3:47 PM
@fbueckert And honestly, if you had flagged that original revision ,vI'd have deleted it.
I guess my frustration over the entire situation boiled over when it looked like curators were once again under attack.
having been participating on many per-site meta, I've observed many kind of users, and it's pointless to force our ideology to them... but that's not really our fault, because the system/company itself contradicts their own ideology...
@fbueckert And people have apologized for making you feel that way, and expressed a wish to move on ;)
@Tinkeringbell I think this is one of those places where SE can learn from their own welcoming blog and rethink how they post comments. That wasn't very welcoming at all.
@fbueckert Do you know how hard it is to stick to your own advice? ;). Try and see it from Tim/any CMs point of view... They're working their asses off and stuff to get a site where even more people feel comfortable contributing... And then they have to deal with stuff like that post. I'd loose my cool once in a while too.
(In fact, I did exactly that a lot just before being modded on IPS)
3:56 PM
@Tinkeringbell We're going to have fundamentally different ideas of what welcoming really means.
(and I still might sometimes do so, but in private... And that's just the frustrations from a single site)
And that difference is likely what is driving the frustration between both sides.
To me, that post didn't need dealing with; it was fine right where it was.
@fbueckert Perhaps, but we need to put stuff on hold a bit, I'm almost home and need to do grocery shopping, cooking and eating ;)
@Tinkeringbell No worries.
4:10 PM
@Catija but CMs opting out of meta and just making the changes they want without discussion would burn a ton of the remaining goodwill, so what's your alternative? The discussion about how to reform meta needs to happen in public. Yes, that means posts have to be carefully written, but that's true of lots of things. However, the discussion doesn't have to be started by a CM. Let the community discuss the problem. Some of us are actually good at meta and could ask the question well.
@MonicaCellio That's my question... I didn't think I needed to say it explicitly.
I can't make users ask questions that need to be asked or start discussions that need to happen, I can only control myself.
@Catija ... Technically you just did I suspect ๐Ÿ˜
The discussion in this room for the last several hours is just one example of ideas being brought up casually. Anybody who's been part of this could ask the question on meta. It wouldn't be "here's what we want to do" but rather "here's a perceived problem; what should we do about it?". But I think that's better; as people were just saying, use (and allow full voting on) answers for proposals/solutions, not questions.
@MonicaCellio Wording it neutrally like that is likely going to see the best response from all comers.
So, for example, I'm quite willing to ask a question about this (probably not for about 10-12 hours, though, because life). It'll be my question, based on my perceptions. I won't run it past CMs for approval first (not that I think you'd expect that). You or anyone else can then use answers to advance the discussion.
And it will be worded in a way to facilitate productive discussion, because that's what I try to do on meta.
(Of course, someone else might beat me to it.)
4:18 PM
Now we just have to hope that five users don't all decide to post the same question at the same time...
This kind of thing can happen more often if CMs have these kinds of informal discussions that naturally lead someone to asking the meta question.
But skipping the meta step because some CMs think meta is scary? That would make things worse. For better or worse, meta is where we have public policy discussions. Nobody should have to monitor chat or be friends with the right employees to have input.
@MonicaCellio I took a shot at exactly that on mso
@MonicaCellio exactly the same as a lot of us use chat as mods ;p
@Alex I don't have keyboard access till the morning ;p
4:20 PM
I think a lot of the frustration that's occurred is because SE has been talking at it's curators, instead of trying to talk with us.
@JourneymanGeek Eh, just give me your password and I'll write it for you.
@fbueckert that's something we can and need to work at
But we can't talk at them either
@Magisch those are good things to bring up. Any child meta pretty much has to limit the discussion to effecting cultural change. On MSE the discussion can be about the engine itself, like some of the stuff people were saying about voting restrictions.
@MonicaCellio No one is suggesting that...
(Any change to voting needs to allow people to express "that is actively bad" -- there are three states, not just two. That can be done via answers and their votes, so long as votes in both directions are permitted.)
@Catija oh good. I couldn't tell.
4:23 PM
Nothing I said was that we aren't posting...
All I said was that it's taxing and hard.
@Catija eh, it's vaguely implied.
And it's even harder when you're half convinced that you're going to get downvoted to oblivion.
Also considering things awkward as hell to bring up
So... the problem is the downvote, not the comments!?
@Catija I've totally posted knowing it'll happen ;p
Was a child meta but....
4:24 PM
I'm not sure there is an angle to properly tackle this issue without getting ton-of-brick'd
It's the same reason anything talking about being more welcoming gets the default -15 start
@NoDistractionWizard They're both problematic but at least something can be done about comments. If they're constructive, they can be used. If they're rude, they can be deleted. Downvotes don't tell you whether someone's voting because they've a policy of downvoting everything staff posts or downvoting because the question is bad or... they lost their keys.
@Magisch eh. Sometimes it's worth taking that step
@Magisch I think the question can be raised productively enough to stay on the front page. We should expect answers to be controversial.
@MonicaCellio Do you reckon? I'm unconvinced
But the bigger problem with downvotes - for me - is that they obscure the discussion entirely. Once the question hits -8... far fewer people will ever see it.
4:26 PM
It's imaginary internet points. It's a real community of people and a shared space.
I haven't seen this level of soreness and hostility towards a topic since, actually I haven't seen it at all yet so far
I'm still curious how many users (in percentage) browse SE homepage, because I don't...
@Magisch if it's still relevant by the time I have time for it, I'll try to demonstrate (b'li neder, no vow).
good luck
@NoDistractionWizard what do you mean by SE homepage?
4:28 PM
the site's homepage that lists questions having score > -8
@JourneymanGeek I agree. But I don't see many situations where the community is talking at SE; more like the community wants feedback or input, and it gets ignored.
@fbueckert we do, a lot.
@Catija Can't that feature be removed for Meta? If votes don't signify that the content is "bad", why should the content be hidden in the first place?
@NoDistractionWizard oh, an individual site's main page. (You said SE so I thought you meant the main network site.) I use site main pages all the time. On sites I moderate, I, less-frequently, look at the full questions list to see what else is happening.
But the latter is maybe once a day while the former is any time I visit the site (more frequent).
@fbueckert it's certainly a work in progress - and there's aspects I do think we need to work on.
4:33 PM
@JourneymanGeek I guess the situations where SE doesn't respond is talking at them.
@Alex I mean... to be honest, there's a very real concern on my part that it'd lead to even more downvoting. It might get some additional upvotes but if something is already -30, I worry that it's more likely to get more down than up.
@fbueckert eh. We sometimes seem to forget there's real people there and we get more done by winning them over
@Catija Ah, I didn't realize the feature was also meant to protect the author. I thought it was just to save people from having to see bad content.
@JourneymanGeek I think that's true for both sides.
@fbueckert well ideally there's only one side.
4:36 PM
The system has just been, "working", more or less, for so long, that shaking up the apple cart requires a fundamental shift in how everyone interacts with each other.
Not always true of course
@Alex I don't know what the original reasoning was... but I'm guessing that on main you're mostly correct... but the lowest score there is -3 rather than -7... I don't think it's really about protecting them... but it would have that effect.
tbh, the first two comments sealed that questions faith and I'm one of the commenters.
And, well, we just kinda took a boulder into the apple cart, and nobody knows if we're rebuilding it as it was, or if we're supposed to just build a brand new one to put the apples in.
@fbueckert working dosen't mean ideal
SO having that mindset got us into the current mess IMO
4:41 PM
@Catija It doesn't really help when the question is shared on the chat room though...
Only so many people use chat.
Do we have 30+ regulars on MSE that only participate on MSE only?
@NoDistractionWizard technically....
@NoDistractionWizard not counting lurky folks
@NoDistractionWizard Probably some employees.
@Alex err, pretty sure they won't downvote
4:48 PM
We've got some people picking up apples, some people trying to rebuild the apple cart, and others just standing around having no idea what to do.
We don't have anybody with a coherent plan in place that tells us what we're trying to do anymore.
@NoDistractionWizard there were 30 people on chat when you said that ..
And others just here to enjoy the show...
@JourneymanGeek again, discounting SE staffs and bots that didn't downvote...
I didn't DV ;p
4:51 PM
I didn't either ;p
I strongly disagree with OP ...
But I chose to post an answer...
And I chose to post a comment that it's related/cross-site dupe on MSO...
There are 50+ users on MSE having 10+ comments since April 2019. I stand corrected with bent legs.
I have exactly 10 comments in that time period.
I DV'ed. But when I went to fill my prescription for emotional development issued by Dr. Post, it was already gone...
Anyway, downvotes etc can't possibly be a problem for SE staff with access to vote table.
Query for downvoters, drop the matching rows from Users database, the downvotes are gone.
That they choose not to do this is their decision.
5:06 PM
@VoteDukakis Doing that would cause an even bigger issue.
That's an even faster way to tell your curators that their voice isn't just not heard, but actively discounted.
Maybe "curators" are not as important or valuable as they think they are.
For being alerted of interesting meta posts, I just rank them by votes regardless of type. So 30 upvotes + 30 downvotes is the same as 60 upvotes. Also anonymous feedback. I don't particularly care why something is getting attention until later; initially I just care about how much attention.
@VoteDukakis Ehh.. as a reaction to the above, and tone not carrying very well on the web, that reads like a bit below the belt to me...
@VoteDukakis that seems excessively sarcastic
@VoteDukakis or change the weight of downvotes. The resulting rep recalculations will be 'fun'
@JourneymanGeek How about remove reputation altogether? Privileges can be based on Network Reputation.
5:12 PM
@Alex discussed before.
There's a few problems
Too much weight to SO and high site rep dosen't really reflect a broader knowledge of the system
@Shog9 Wouldn't views be a better indicator of attention?
@JourneymanGeek +5 for upvote, +1 for downvote ๐Ÿ˜œ
because "this might be not good, but I care"
instead of a stack of tumbleweed passing your question...
@NoDistractionWizard or even a +0
@fbueckert not really. Views just mean someone clicked on it, not that they formed an opinion
2 hours later…
7:36 PM
@Alex and have all the high-rep SO users voting to set policy on 170 smaller sites? No thanks. Network expertise is an independent expertise that site alongside programming, Jewish law, travel, science fiction, and the rest. Being good at one or more of the others says approximately zero about your knowledge of SE meta-issues.
Greatest hits could serve as an "interesting meta stuff" page if it could be filtered or sorted by date.
The list of metaSO greatest hits is more interesting because there are fewer ancient posts there. (Still, too many are about old surveys or OSS ads)
Does the xxx.com blacklist not apply to question titles? has no answers and the score of 5, but 36K views.
7:53 PM
> The current algorithm divides the number of page views with the total amount of question and answer feedback received (adding a bonus for high view counts), excluding questions with less views than the median :- 162.
What is that " :- "?
Noun: dog's bollocks pl (plural only)
  1. (typography, punctuation mark, vulgar) The name of the punctuation construction :โ€” used to represent a restful pause in reading a text. The construction itself is proscribed.
  2. (Britain, vulgar slang) Something that is regarded as outstanding.
  3. That new flat screen TV you bought is the dog's bollocks.
That's terrible.
8:14 PM
@Loong scratches head wasn't it you that mentioned what it is in The Periodic Table long ago first?
I thought I learned it from you.
LOL "Something that is regarded as outstanding"
Brits dou rarely have houmour
8:44 PM
@KevinB's avatar appears to be in need of emotional development.
9:31 PM
@Margarine I already knew what ":-" is, and we all already discussed many times that the typography on stackexchange is very bad; however, that's a new low.
9:45 PM
It's beneath him.
10:37 PM
scratches head
leaving silently before anyone notice
11:10 PM
Q: Please re-consider enabling low-rep users to see up/down votes on their own posts

David KThis post is a request to re-consider the question "Please enable low-rep users to easily breakout up and down votes on their own questions", which was declined in 2010. This is not a duplicate post. This is a request to allow new users to view the breakdown of up- and down-votes on their own qu...

I strongly agree with this. I think it's important.
I hate signing up to a new SE site and needing to look through my rep history to manually calculate how many votes are on a given post.
Why does the suspended guy Guest have a blank avatar and the name Guest? Is that a manual change to disassociate their suspended status from their identity or was that done by moderators for some reason?
Wow that was a strong deja vu. I think I asked this question before. :o
maybe they just like making mockumentaries
11:56 PM
@forest They have a fully transparent image set as their avatar, and they changed their username network-wide by copying it from a site they were manually unsuspended from (there's a bug report for that). Also, chat profiles aren't re-cleared if the user falls below the rep to chat; once they gain enough rep to chat, they're shown permanently.
Every time I think SE can't get any buggier, I'm get proved wrong.
suggesting it's already far, far buggier than you think, and you're blissfully unaware of most of the bugs
Guess that's what happens when you keep site software closed source. :P
unfortunately, the bugs database is public
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