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Journeyman Geek

12:09 AM

@SonictheWizardWerehog actually we have Monica, who has a non animal ava

g3rv4

12:39 AM

@SonictheWizardWerehog I'll let you know once I suggest an edit at SOes

ocæon

4:45 AM

perhaps it's time some of code golf forked off to crazy golf?

Shog9

5:04 AM

@GetAnswerWizard so... We have multiple such systems. What we don't have is effective processes built on those systems. Bugs getting lost after weeks or months due to automatic deletion aren't an issue; bugs getting ignored are an issue. We're working on this.

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@Shog9 Just unmasked a sockpuppet ring here: stackexchange.com/users/5153376/jack-siro (main account), stackexchange.com/users/9649621/user7163594, and stackexchange.com/users/9583667/oyonde. Please take care as needed. (They've been doing this on many sites already; only after their recent MSE post were they caught.)

Shog9

Overall, the biggest problem with IE11 bugs remains IE11.

@SonictheWizardWerehog flag please

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@Shog9 Already did

Shog9

then it will be handled

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

My flags to report the user on Stack Overflow were handled within minutes (if not seconds)

I don't want this user to keep sock-puppeting in the time between my report and a CM eventually handling it

Shog9

5:06 AM

yes, as you may have noted the handling on SO was very thorough

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@Shog9 So an IE11-related issue that I report, that the community downvotes, and that eventually fall victim to the deletion script, still has a chance of being seen by an SE team member and added to the internal bug tracker?

It looks to an outsider as if nothing is happening, even if there may be quite a bit of internal activity. Why not leave a comment, "we're aware of this issue and are looking into a fix"?

Shog9

see comment above regarding process

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

So the answer is yes?

Journeyman Geek

5:34 AM

@SonictheWizardWerehog ehhhh. If they keep on doing it, the book thrown might just be bigger. But but... you absolutely shouldn't treat chat as a fast lane to get a staffer unless its a life or death issue. And even then, a mod has better tools for that...

@Shog9 y'all should just rip off the bandaid and stop supporting IE 11

There's dozens of more important things, and the only reason IE 11 is the most recent supported browser in its family is cause MS changes browser engines like some people change underwear (pheeewwwww)

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

No, please don't leave your Windows RT users in the dust

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheWizardWerehog windows RT is dead

so ... spending effort on all two remaining windows RT users until their devices mercifully reach the great cloud in the sky....

isn't worth it IMO

ocæon

all windows users can just use netscape

Journeyman Geek

Actually a better arguement would be that some institutions are still stuck with IE11 for reasons

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

Also many office users may be using Windows 7 with IE11

Journeyman Geek

5:37 AM

@ocæon funny thing is I use an officially unsupported browser.

@SonictheWizardWerehog windows 7 is.. going EOL soonish, and its unlikely to be their only browser

Get Answer Wizard

I heard Edge will be available to Windows 7 and 8?

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@GetAnswerWizard Nope, it uses UWP

Journeyman Geek

@GetAnswerWizard I'd give it a shot if it was ;p

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@JourneymanGeek It'll be another four years until IE11 is no longer the latest native browser on any platform

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheWizardWerehog platforms no longer in development though

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

5:40 AM

@JourneymanGeek Windows 8.1 is still supported until 2023

Extended support, but support nonetheless.

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheWizardWerehog supported, sure, in development... er... nooo?

ocæon

@JourneymanGeek usupported browser, good! i'm using ff62 but i've tried real hard to break it

Get Answer Wizard

Either I misinterpret this news badly, or I'm lost: Microsoft is embracing Chromium, bringing Edge to Windows 7, Windows 8, and macOS

Journeyman Geek

So, basically you'd need one or more devs to run an older system to check for bugs, on a browser that a relatively small population of people use, on an engine they've replaced twice since.

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

Meaning, Chrome will be the next IE6

Journeyman Geek

5:42 AM

@SonictheWizardWerehog unlike IE though there's multiple folks supporting it, the rendering engine is constantly being updated....

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

There are some nonstandard quirks in Chrome (e.g. one thing has to do with internationalized domain names and escape sequences; Firefox and Edge implement the standard correctly while Chrome doesn't)

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheWizardWerehog there's lots of non standard quirks in IE 11....

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

Plus the UI elements (dropdowns, checkboxes, radio buttons, etc.) aren't the "standard" UI elements.

ocæon

can you not just weight the people with these browsers toward each other until they fix each other's bugs or give up using ms?

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

Finally, the font smoothing looks just weird, especially on high-DPI screens. Chrome displays text in all black, while Edge uses a very dark shade of gray to make text less displeasing to the eye; I prefer the latter

Competition between browser vendors is good. It makes sure that there is a standard that they all support. Having a single company control all browsers gives them too much freedom to implement things however they want. Haven't we learned that already?

ocæon

5:47 AM

we have, but ms havn't

Get Answer Wizard

Let's all use Lynx instead...

ocæon

how many users on emacs?

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@JourneymanGeek IE11 goes out of its way to fool websites into thinking that it's a Gecko-based browser. For instance, support for conditional comments is removed, navigator.appName returns "Netscape" (per the standard), and "MSIE" is removed from the user agent and replaced with "like Gecko".

ocæon

6:01 AM

ah i guess identifying emacs based browsing would be impossible from useragents

Journeyman Geek

6:14 AM

@SonictheWizardWerehog actually "like mozilla" is... pretty common

and is a reference to netscape

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@JourneymanGeek No, not "Mozilla/5.0" etc., I mean "like Gecko" literally

Journeyman Geek

ya, that's common/intentional, way back from the old days

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

KHTML (and its fork WebKit) were the first to make use of that

Besides, some of the IE11 issues are actually proving to be fixable. For instance, a bug with the new responsive design where clicked voting buttons would show as SO orange on all sites rather than the theme color, was fixed.

Journeyman Geek

developers.whatismybrowser.com/useragents/explore/software_name/…

@SonictheWizardWerehog If it happens to be fixed, sure. Its just that some folks seem to think its some kinda priority and keep nagging staff about it ;p

and annoying other folks at the same time.

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@JourneymanGeek Never nagged about it for a while.

Journeyman Geek

6:18 AM

Never nagging about it at all is good!

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

Last time I "nagged" about it was in August 2018.

M.A.R. The Chemical Wizard

6:29 AM

-10

Q: Can SE be considered to a both dangerous and helpful network?

While I feel that SO or SE helps people especially programmers and sysadmins to get knowledge on things they really need to do or work on I tend to feel the down votes, regulation of questions and answers, harsh words thrown to newbies tend to make it dangerous as you grow from a new contributor ...

Dangerous huh

Well, some sites have too many doggies so maybe dog bites are common?

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@M.A.R.TheChemicalWizard User was caught sockpuppeting. Let them speak for themselves:

M.A.R. The Chemical Wizard

Especially if the guy works at Gmail

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

I had a legitimmate question here but my friend just costed me my SO account — Anisi 1 hour ago

(i.e. they were reported, caught, and suspended).

M.A.R. The Chemical Wizard

Ha, the double m is probably a pun

@SonictheWizardWerehog Maybe after being frustrated about downvotes

Get Answer Wizard

Welp, asking questions is a privilege, not a right.

M.A.R. The Chemical Wizard

6:32 AM

Ya know, how some people treat this too much like a game and normal games keep pushing you until you do some in-app-purchases

@GetAnswerWizard But is righting privileges a question?

Journeyman Geek

@GetAnswerWizard well in a sense - ehhh, yeah!

M.A.R. The Chemical Wizard

IIRC I once dreamed about a huge airplane ad thingy that said "asking questions is a privilege, not a right"

Journeyman Geek

But its one you inherently have and lose if you abuse

@M.A.R.TheChemicalWizard skywriting?

M.A.R. The Chemical Wizard

Breathing is a privilege, not a right.

@JourneymanGeek I wanted to say "flyer" for the sake of punning

Magisch

@M.A.R.TheChemicalWizard Thats the core of some of the cultural friction innit

Get Answer Wizard

6:35 AM

I just quoted from The Helpful Center™ ;p

Magisch

A lot of people believe asking should be a right. That a platform that becomes as ubiquitous as stack has a duty of care to assist everyone and is in some sense like a public utility

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch yup

Magisch

The argument isn't without merit

and pretending only sore losers and people who don't understand what stack is make it is a disservice

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch but a lot of those folks also want to take advantage of the benefits of SE without realising that the reason we have those benefits is curation

M.A.R. The Chemical Wizard

But it's why downvotes are considered hostile/angry/abusive/dangerous(!)/aggressive/KO

Journeyman Geek

6:36 AM

By helping everyone - we could end up helping no one

M.A.R. The Chemical Wizard

Yes master Shifu

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

It seems we don't have a canonical question that clearly explains the curation model and how and why it works, that can be used as a duplicate target for the (now several) questions we get that assert downvotes and close votes to be "unfriendly".

Journeyman Geek

So you hate downvotes - how do we ensure quality content for the person who wanders in? What's a good alternate way to determine the quality of the content we have?

Magisch

right, but I see a lot of "See here's where you just don't understand how it works" a lot of people making the argument do. They disagree on the merits of the follow up "If we allow everyone, people will leave / quality will decrease / etc" the message being sent is "This is a public utility, then curate better / edit better / answer better"

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

So we're forced to countlessly re-explain it, only for our explanations to (rightfully) be deleted.

Do you think we should have a canonical for that?

Magisch

6:38 AM

I think the fundamental view of how this works is not static

Journeyman Geek

ehh... its actually something that's covered in the tour?

@Magisch I guess part of that is there's no easy way to teach that.

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@JourneymanGeek Not quite...people who come from other forums often expect leniency for new users rather than applying our curation equivalently. This is even after reading the tour.

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheWizardWerehog and yet, they're looking to us, not there.

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

Also it allows those rants to be dup-closed to an actually useful target

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek It's also that new users are shaping that expectations as much as established users do

If enough users and developers at stack believe in a changed definition, the definition has in fact changed. That's what community consensus is

Journeyman Geek

6:41 AM

@Magisch well.. maybe but at that point when should we be fundamentally relooking our model?

and when does "Its what the people want" overcome "this is what has worked sucessfully so far?"

Get Answer Wizard

Right, we need 50% + 1 users for consensus.

out of all registered users

Magisch

I think by closing feature requests as dupes we're doing the site's evolution a disservice, honestly

Journeyman Geek

@GetAnswerWizard slightly controversial view? Not all users have the same value.

@Magisch I'm personally against that.

Magisch

"This has been discussed once so it's not allowed to be discussed again" just means issues fester

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@GetAnswerWizard That's not consensus; that's majority vote. Not ideal all the time.

Journeyman Geek

6:43 AM

@Magisch my viewpoint of MSE has been its the helpdesk of the community

and we're too quick to dupehammer things

Get Answer Wizard

@SonictheWizardWerehog Alright, only mods can make a consensus then.

Journeyman Geek

but a good chunk of folks who matter disagree

@GetAnswerWizard oi!

Magisch

I think, at least part of the shenanigans of last year are a fault of meta's culture

both mse and mso

Journeyman Geek

@GetAnswerWizard while we're kinda BDFLish, part of being a good mod or any community leadership role is gauging the feelings of the community - and acting accordingly or trying to win over people

Magisch

we're so closed to entertaining criticism of the model that people don't bother and go offsite with their criticism

Get Answer Wizard

6:45 AM

and well, that's the problem... how to make a consensus if no one agrees how...

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch a lot of those folks don't bother to actually engage us though

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@JourneymanGeek Yes. If you noticed, while I've voiced disagreement with established community norms on the site, I do make an effort to abide by them anyway. For instance, the current established community consensus is to close questions already answered in FAQs as duplicates; I vote to close but then edit the auto-comment to explain why and how the FAQ is relevant.

Journeyman Geek

or listen to anyone who disagrees.

Magisch

people are asked to raise it on meta instead, but in asking that we forget that if someone actually raised these things on meta they would be downvoted to below hell and bombed with a hundred voices that disagree

there's blame to go around

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheWizardWerehog Well - you also are a bit.. focused on getting FAQs as perfect as possible so we can close as dupe so...

erm, part of the problem ;)

Get Answer Wizard

6:46 AM

If that's the case, then I think Automatically inserted “Copy to palette” button for code, quotes, and other preformatted blocks that are at least one full line? needs more attention...

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch that's a bit of a no win situation though. Unless there was some route where we could bridge the meta is scary crowd and the meta crowd

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

Typical MO of a new user:
1. search for a problem online, find posts from SE sites in addition to forums
2. assume SE to be like one of those forums (some users may have prior experience in forms, which may be the opposite of useful, e.g. avoid bumping old threads, moderators establish rules, new users get leniency, and most important, the main focus is less on allowing the same thread to be searchable)
3. they then type up their question, not see a help center, not see the right sidebar explaining what's on-topic until they finish typing and thus think, "they won't mind, right?"

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek As tim mentioned here that probably needs a fundamentally redesigned meta system

Journeyman Geek

Also - my own opinion is (and I've said this a lot of times) - the community team isn't really scaled to what it needs to do, and there's some aspects of how they do it that hasn't worked.

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

I think we need a canonical post that clearly explains how the curation model works in greater detail than the tour, so that new users are made more aware of how it works.

Journeyman Geek

6:48 AM

I mean, it worked well with a smaller community, but they also dropped the ball on a few things that worked great in the past.

Get Answer Wizard

I think the Tour needs to be renovated.

Journeyman Geek

@GetAnswerWizard I feel the tour is bloated

But I've been saying we need to go back to a simpler FAQ from when the new FAQ page was created so....

But the ask a question wizard ought to be a start on helping new users get eased in

ocæon

@JourneymanGeek what tour are you looking at? i was given one page, and a free badge!

Journeyman Geek

@ocæon there used to be a one page, texty FAQ ;p

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

Press End to earn your first badge

Journeyman Geek

6:50 AM

Back in the old days

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

/faq

Journeyman Geek

When policemen wore long pants...

ocæon

look, i know there's an angry mob out there, but there is a big difference between a consensus and a mass failiure to communicate

Journeyman Geek

@ocæon well, there's an angry mob out there, there's an angry mob in here...

PICHFORKS AND TORCHES FOR ALL!

ocæon

the staks have a model, and alot of infrastructure to make it go

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

6:53 AM

Found it: web.archive.org/web/20130516030736/http://stackoverflow.com/faq

Journeyman Geek

web.archive.org/web/20130301080612/http://stackoverflow.com/…

more like that

@ocæon the trick is though - working out when an "outsider" has a point, and when they don't.

Get Answer Wizard

Since 6-8 months ago, there were everything... from an angry mob to a mass failure in communication

Journeyman Geek

@GetAnswerWizard its harder to fix broken things that have been broken a while ;)

@GetAnswerWizard eh, its a longer term issue

ocæon

of course they have a point, but it's often completely meaningless in the context of the site, and they have not been informed of that before buying into another interpretation, i see it going on all over

Journeyman Geek

They focused on other things a little too hard, and kinda let core stuff fester a while.

(and I guess what annoys me is they probably could have worked on careers and docs without kinda... ignoring the rest of the network)

Get Answer Wizard

6:58 AM

An SO blog looking for Jobs to Document a New Navigation for SO TV?

Journeyman Geek

SO TV wasn't that bad an idea

ocæon

like i said in my first post, (and i hope shog didn't think it was personal, they were very welcoming) that "we" includes all users, unsigned and uninformed as many of us are

Journeyman Geek

nor was docs

nor was careers

But at the end of the day, SE does one thing better than anyone else.

Get Answer Wizard

the New New Nav!

ocæon

wat..stackoverflow television???

Journeyman Geek

7:00 AM

(well and chat, but the "core audience" of devs has sunk costs into slack)

@ocæon yup. Not an april fools day joke.

ocæon

/me continues to shudder

Journeyman Geek

@GetAnswerWizard actually - if you think about it, initial pain aside, stacks has gotten a lot more done than new new new new nav...

simply cause it was fairly focused and (for better or worse) one size fits something for most sites.

Its not wasted development time

ocæon

on the bright side the jobs looks very well polished from the outside (can't speak for the gears myself) and it's a garunteed income

Journeyman Geek

@ocæon erm

so.. how long have you been around?

ocæon

three days

lol i've been browsing pages for years but only just decided to try contributing

Journeyman Geek

7:03 AM

techcrunch.com/2017/11/02/stack-overflow-lays-off-staff

so that happened. Partially cause careers.

The problem with careers is while SO has massive brand recognition in the developer space...

ocæon

that figures, feels like that must have happened, from ground level

Journeyman Geek

Pretty much every other player in the market is focused on the same pie.

SO does promise the high ground - but... well...

Magisch

SO Jobs still houses ads from jobshops like crossover

so the promise of only having relevant real positions is surface level at best

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch that's one of the wells ;p

ocæon

i think there;s a local nightshelter called crossover..

Journeyman Geek

7:09 AM

Also, the 'fun' problem if you do it right with jobs is - they're not going to come back. If you do it wrong.. they're not going to come back ;p

ocæon

now that , i do not believe. they'll be back time and time again. careers are still not what they used to be in the wider world

Magisch

Isn't the average tenure at one job for devs like 2-3 years?

Cause in this culture raises will never keep pace with actual career growth so to get what you deserve you need to hop a lot

ocæon

we've got chats that run longer than that

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch presumably - but if you're good you probably also have a network to fall back on

ocæon

my elder kid drags his heels with every client. makes sure he gets a months pay, even if he could turn it round in a week

and i'm always tutting at him for it!

Magisch

7:13 AM

Like, right now, I could probably hop for 15% or so more right away. Do you think I'll ever get a straight 15% raise year to year? Never

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch More or less though - its basically not a great market to be in ;p

Now with something like channels or SO for Enterprise - even if you get a datadump, migrating could be a pain. Also, the customer pays every month, yay constant revenue stream...

but those customers are going to be folks who've already bought into the SO or SE ecosystem

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek eh, someone will sometime write a plugin to convert SO For teams data to like mediawiki or something for free

ocæon

and affiliates and partnerships and deals. the bullet's been bitten

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch well or a rival Q&A system

'but the point is - as long as they're a customer, you're getting a revenue stream for something no one's really doing better than you

Magisch

doesn't look like a rival Q/A system is coming tbh

Journeyman Geek

7:19 AM

@Magisch Well, that's probably what the hyphen site thought

ocæon

@Magisch hmm.. the content is attribution sharealike, right? but what's the aggregated data licence?

Magisch

same way I don't think a different form of SO with more quality concerns is coming to steal away the experts. Pretty much all of the tech industry is more inclusive and focused on diversity and welcomingness then SO is right now

And it's moving yet further in that direction. Starting something like what some people on mSO want would be a PR nightmare

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch My view on that is well - they're welcome to.

But if we want a more diverse, welcoming SE - it cannot be top down

Magisch

These changes are always top down by necessity

Journeyman Geek

eh

I kinda disagree

Magisch

7:23 AM

the mass of people does not want them or is at least intrinsically resistant

the only way to make it happen is by upsetting and counteracting existing community dynamics

Journeyman Geek

One of the big strengths of the good old days is - well we saw a lot of folks on "top" talking to us on the sites or on chat

Or even had community managers pop into chat

Magisch

Right, now imagine you're the new CEO

Journeyman Geek

and that gives you a ton of push

Magisch

You've got a mandate to make the site more inclusive. That means necessarily to the detriment of some established users

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I'd dive into MSO.

Magisch

7:24 AM

You can't say that can you. You need to manage your message. You need to hedge and be diplomatic. Authenticity is uncalled for in that environment

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I disagree there

You can be diplomatic but you also need to be seen in the crowd and listening to them

Magisch

what if the crowd is hostile to you because you've got to make changes that you know will be hugely unpopular with the crowd?

Journeyman Geek

Well, you convince the crowd

ocæon

personally, if i can nudge just a few other new signups past the first rep hurdle, i'm happy

Journeyman Geek

you work out the voices that people listen to and either win them over or disarm them

@ocæon the right way of course.

Magisch

7:28 AM

Your mandate isn't to convince the crowd though. Community goodwill is a luxury. Your mandate is to change things in favor of the not-crowd

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch community goodwill is a necessity and a privilege.

Magisch

The crowd and its culture is your hurdle to overcome in that instance

Journeyman Geek

thing is, you're basically setting a kobayashi maru scenario. You're assuming the folks inside can't be convinced and are inherently irrational.

Magisch

Have you seen today's political landscape?

It's nothing if not entrenched

Journeyman Geek

But that's something I feel was a critical difference between early SE, the middle period, and now

Magisch

7:31 AM

I'm not saying people can't be convinced, I'm saying your mandate may not allow for that. It's probably "Make this more inclusive" with an implied timeline that doesn't allow for "And make it a long process that listens to and addresses concerns along the way"

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch but we don't have to do thing their way

with great big walls.

@Magisch then we're ... well certain word rhyming with ducked.

Magisch

Thats the reason other tech giants just appoint outsiders as groups of decision makers instead of working with the community, e.g. twitter's trust and safety council

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch and they do an absolutely awful job at it.

Magisch

depends on what they set out to achieve

ocæon

so it's also a blessing that the 'business' of 'inclusivity' isn't wrapped up in mandates and targets

Journeyman Geek

7:32 AM

@Magisch Keep the investors happy I guess

ocæon

oh they're happy

Journeyman Geek

but handling things that way on SO would likely make things worse.

Magisch

there's a growing sentiment of "I don't care. Burned down is better then not burned down and uninclusive"

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch and those people ... do they actually care about SO? If SO burned down they'd just move on to the next target.

Magisch

This is where politics comes in. If you think the issue at hand is sufficiently damaging / immoral / unfair then "no site" becomes preferable to "uninclusive site" if you view it that way

see certain game communities. "No community" is in the eyes of some better then "a bad one"

Journeyman Geek

7:36 AM

@Magisch I'm sure certain people actually think that way

ocæon

... hold up, how does this keep going back to them and us? i'm refferring to the entity of business and the people. don't forget that the business is the people, nothing is wrong with that right now. business is good. are all the experienced members of the community too bruised to work within the new framework?

Journeyman Geek

@ocæon there's no real 'new' framework ;p

There's actually a few points of contention, some of it addressed, some of it not, and a lot of it "focused" on SO

ocæon

darn perhaps i shouldn't have chosen that as my first stack after all

Journeyman Geek

Quite honestly - I don't think a good chunk of folks would notice if the rest of the SE network vanished or was spun off overnight.

@ocæon SO's the big site - its the one with the most visibility and as such the most politics. Just how it is.

Magisch

Framing it as "unreasonable people vs us" is unhelpful. The people who think that way have a chain of logic and internally consistent argument to get to where they are

we need to remember that when discussing these things

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

7:38 AM

@JourneymanGeek Except maybe @AskQuestionWizard

Journeyman Geek

So people are not going to complain about SU being non exclusive.

In that frame of reference, there's folks who feel there's too much attention being placed to various social initiatives like the new COC, and welcoming new users at the cost of stuff we've asked for years.

(now, its not a zero sum game.. we could have both)

And they're very vocal and some tend to be a bit toxic about it.

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

Aug 27 '18 at 9:05, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Let me summarize. What people often mistakenly believe is that being more "welcoming" would involve having to lighten up the site's scope. My suggestion to those people is, carefully read up April's original Medium post on the topic (again if you've already read it). All that needs to be done is to change our tone and attitude. We can keep our existing scope and still have a very welcoming site.

Journeyman Geek

On the other hand there's folks who kinda feel that SO's basically a male bastion and making changes would help women programmers - but somehow that's turned into "the model is fundamentally wrong"

and in some cases personal attacks based on really old out of context quotes of people who work(ed) at SE

on the gripping hand it feels like SO (the company) is in the middle of a massive unexpected transition.

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@JourneymanGeek A small portion of male users (not all) seem to treat SO chat in particular as a place where "men" congregate, and don't want that to disappear

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheWizardWerehog chat is for everyone. And somewhat underloved.

If anyone is being sexist, or otherwise an arse to one of my users, they'd get a tonguelashing at best ;)

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

7:46 AM

Now in complete fairness there are a few minor points in that Medium post I disagree with: for instance, the part about thanking: I don't really use it as a means to be "polite" natively; in fact, as a child, I had to be repeatedly told to say "thank you". I find not being required to say "thanks" to be more welcoming.

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek The definitions of that word are also vocally in dispute

for instance, some people read it as meaning any situation which results in gender biased outcomes unfavorable towards traditionally marginalized groups

ocæon

@SonictheWizardWerehog thanks are sometimes just what people need to hear, any other time is just diluting it, but it's so hard to spot the difference sometimes

@JourneymanGeek regarding the outward facing aspect of chat, is it being treated entirely as a pergatory for those who discuss too much in comments?

Journeyman Geek

No

It is the third place after main sites and meta

Get Answer Wizard

It's more like a nice addition for something that doesn't belong to the core of Q&A. One of them is for extended discussion, because we discourage that on the main site (kind of putting Talk page into the main Article page on Wikipedia)

Even I'm now trying my best not to use any first-person and second-person pronoun when writing a question and answer (except on meta because of its nature), trying to explain a thing without referring to any audience...

ocæon

8:01 AM

oh , well thanks, it's a force of habit for me anyway, lol

i'm happy with female pronouns, less so about 'it'

fun fact ~ my middle name is meta, and i narrowly avoided confusing alot of people at signup

anyone here think the code of conduct is anything other than the inevitable handwaving over a billion conflicting legitimate concerns at ground level?

!!/crickets

SmokeDetector

@ocæon No such command 'crickets'.

ocæon

darn

Journeyman Geek

@ocæon hm. Yes and no

It's a reaction to external concerns but it's also stuff we should and have been doing all along

ocæon

agreed

@GetAnswerWizard yes i can see the stacks chats are supposed to be there for that, but it's not intuative on the way in. it kind of sits off to the side looking daunting and irrelevant until a comment "thread" gets booted there

by the way, are @GetAnswerWizard and @AskQuestionWizard connected accounts?

i'm getting a bit confused

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

8:25 AM

-2

A: The Many Memes of Meta

Meme: Wizards Originators: Shadow Wizard, Ask a Question Wizard Cultural height: As tall as the wizardry tower goes Background: Shadow Wizard is one of the most prolific users here on Meta. While their name previously didn't hold that much significance, after another prolific Meta user, Sonic,...

Shadow Wizard

waffles

Didn't see it's a reply to someone else wondering, lol

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

stroopwafels

Shadow Wizard

@ocæon yes, they play a game for years where one is changing the name, then the other changes too, to something related.

Best combo IMO was Soup and Meatballs.

ocæon

lol thanks @SonictheWizardWerehog

Shadow Wizard

Their current names selection are indeed affected by that meme.

Journeyman Geek

8:29 AM

@ocæon used to be linked on the main sites

ocæon

yes i saw the list already but didn't delve yet..

suprising that wizard isn't a badge, considering necromancer's there

shadow, you're precognicient, joining just before sonic posted

Shadow Wizard

pre what?!

googling

hmm... no such word??

ohh

> foreknowledge of an event, especially foreknowledge of a paranormal kind

@ocæon Well, I'm the real Wizard after all.... :P

ocæon

lols i am ill placed to disagree! though nobody's got the 'precognitive' badge yet

oh wait, how does one search for badges across all stacks?

Shadow Wizard

@ocæon why? They're the same on all sites.

Except of coruse for tag badges

You mean to see if any user on any site got some badge? @rene can probably write some SEDE query... ;)

ocæon

really? ~ another of the confusions for newcomers

i'm pretty sure i saw a deep comment about precognitive and others being stack specific

anyway, i think i've manically raved a few people out of the room, hope i didn't offend anyone, askquestionwizard left quietly in the middle somewhere

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

8:44 AM

Quick opinion poll: consider the following phrase:

> any user who suggested an edit, regardless of whether the suggestion was approved or rejected

When you first glance at this quote, what classes of editors do you think are applicable here?

Journeyman Geek

errrr

ocæon

low rep, else the edits are normally pushed without review these days

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

Or rather, if someone were writing this phrase off-hand, what classes of editors would they be thinking about?

Journeyman Geek

also, the second part is a a bit lawyerly

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@ocæon We know they're low-rep.

Journeyman Geek

8:47 AM

@SonictheWizardWerehog what're we trying to say ?

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

For instance, one class I'd think of is "edit suggesters of a particular post whose edit went on to become approved".

Journeyman Geek

on its own, the phrase clearly means folks who can suggest edits.

@SonictheWizardWerehog or focus on the post, not the person as much as possible

"When a user suggests an edit - whether or not the edit is approved" is cleaner

and talks about the action not the class of user

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@JourneymanGeek I'll mention the context in a moment. For now, just please answer the question.

Journeyman Geek

I can't without context.

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

Okay, I'll cut to the chase.

ocæon

8:49 AM

it's saying the nature of the post is not an issue, it's simply anyone that chooses to edit by approval, whether they have higher rep or not

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@JourneymanGeek When reading this feature request, what class(es) of edit suggesters do you think this pertains to?

Shadow Wizard

@ocæon nah most people here are busy large parts of the day and come here only once in a while. :)

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

In other words, when the author was writing this, what classes of edit suggesters do you think were they most likely thinking of?

ocæon

havn't notifications have been iffy for years, all over the place?

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek he's trying to justify the edit I rolled back here: meta.stackexchange.com/posts/198977/revisions (which is fine, I'm all for asking for more opinions. :))

Journeyman Geek

8:51 AM

@SonictheWizardWerehog Well, He wants feedback for low rep users who do edits that get rejected

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@JourneymanGeek Any other classes they may have been thinking of? (If not, say so)

Again, what I'm focusing on is author's intent of asking that question

Journeyman Geek

And... that's literally what I think his intent is

but... why are we editing/bumping 3 year old questions?

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

@JourneymanGeek I'll explain.

Journeyman Geek

practically speaking, you can ping anyone who edits sucessfully

its a current feature

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

This question is the same request, except it asks about replying to editors whose edits are pending

ocæon

8:53 AM

but the link goes to a question with this recent answer, meta.stackexchange.com/a/43020/505013

Journeyman Geek

So it is very clear he talks about a class of attempted editors whose edits got rejected

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek because I closed a new question as dupe of it, and some users disagree with the closure. (Not only Sonic)

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

Previously, it also covered the case of rejected editors, but it was later edited out.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard ah uhm

linkie?

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

Now, Shadow is using the pedantic argument that this phrasing means that the target post (the one I linked earlier here) means that it also asks about pending edits. Do you think so?

Journeyman Geek

8:55 AM

I mean, we can just deal with the actual issue right? ;p

I think y'all are taking meta too seriously ;p

Shadow Wizard

3

Q: Please make pending edit suggesters be pingable in comments

This is not a duplicate of Allow failed editors be @replied to because that is about @reply-ing to rejected editors. This is about @reply-ing to users whose edits are still pending. Reviewing suggested edits, it happens often that I would like to say something to the edit suggester, but I can't....

feature-request review edits suggested-edits comment-replies

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

In my opinion, I don't think we should close something as a dupe just because a pedantic read of the target implies that it's covered.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard I'd actually side with sonic here

Its a different class of posts with different purposes

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek no problem, I won't fight over this. The only issue I had was changing the meaning of the older question.

Journeyman Geek

with a rejected edit, its a chance to educate

Sonic the Wizard Werehog

8:57 AM

The target post about rejected editors makes no arguments about pending editors.

ocæon

thes overlapping, issue evolving over time cases, theye are all a process of suring up the question in hand ~ this tiakes time and cooperation ~ and are often stomped before anyone can catch up on the destinctions.

Shadow Wizard

?

ocæon

one of my long standing grumbles over years of witnessing it from the outside

Journeyman Geek

a pending edit ping could help a reviewer improve and accept - though I don't think anyone would spend the time on it

@ocæon well one of the points of meta is hammering these things out

ocæon

i understand, meta is my middle name

Shadow Wizard

8:59 AM

@ocæon no, æ is your middle name. ;)