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02:00 - 11:0011:00 - 00:00

2:18 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in title (98): iPhone data recovery by user316883 on unix.SE
2:30 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in answer (79): Windows 2012 server registers iSCSI port in DNS by Edward Rothman on serverfault.com
2 hours later…
4:07 AM
sweeping morning...
4:32 AM
Today's random song, because somehow I got stumped
4:46 AM
4:57 AM
5:31 AM
Unless there is some missed pun...
5:51 AM
6:29 AM
The idiom goes "don't let the door hit you on your way out", not "don't let you hit the door on your way out", but otherwise, good answer :) — Magisch 48 mins ago
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in body (99): Insert comma instead of period ✏️ by Ayman Arif on tex.SE
If anything, that close reason doesn't make sense @adam .... sorry. — rene 34 secs ago
@rene it was migrated to MSO and bounced back
Oh I see. Well, for good reasons. Don't migrate c... ;)
6:45 AM
@Magisch oh lol I was afraid you or @Journeyman were leaving.... !_!
@rene totally valid site recommendation question, voted to reopen too.
If SE staff decides those are not fitting in MSE anymore they better nuke and blacklist the site-rec tag first and announce it officially.
@rene and c++? ;)
@ShadowWizard I guess we will here it on twitter first?
Your silence in the face of bad behavior is harming your relationship with the volunteers and community members who make your sites work. @StackExchange @JayHanlon @spolsky https://medium.com/@cellio/dear-stack-overflow-we-need-to-talk-13bf3f90204f
Daring guerilla counter-twitter-attack :p
7:05 AM
Go Monica XD
@ShadowWizard naaaaaaw
@ShadowWizard I really would need a great and monumental act of stupidity to chase me off from SE
(on either side. Thankfully I've not done anything that dumb yet)
7:22 AM
be careful making that statement, human stupidity is truly infinite
@rene hehe yeah...
@Magisch well, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened, but lets hope it dosen't
cause then we're well and truely doomed.
I do think that by the time you ragequit, none of us will be left because our threshold is all much lower
I can't say I'm totally happy with the state of SE and many of the things that happened lately
But a few of those things are things that make sense from a business perspective but not from a "avid user" perspective
(like how we kept getting told focusing on non Q&A stuff would help fund the company and help us all... and ended up, well...)
and some of the fallout's still kinda affecting things :(
And its hard to critisise the community team
they're doing the best they can with what they have
(and they should have been the folks who're dealing with stuff like this)
Well... They are not.
7:33 AM
7:45 AM
Damn... What @Monica wrote is... Perfect. Excellent. Really sad nobody from SE is going to respond or do any of what requested there and Monica will likely quit as result, with many other good users following.
@ShadowWizard she tweeted.
someone will read it.
Talking about thresholds... My own isn't so high, if I would have been part of this don't think my response was so moderate. I just ranted a bit here... Oh and still am.
@JourneymanGeek sure, read. But act? Hard to believe.
@ShadowWizard posted on meta too XD
Q: SE needs a better social media policy

Journeyman GeekI don't particularly think I can add more to what Monica's said about what went wrong, and how its hurting the community. Things could have gone better. I don't really see people getting any happier about it. I'd like to ask for a few things going forward. Firstly - that a community team memb...

Maybe "thanks for all your hard work" but that is same as "don't let the door hit you when you leave" without any concrete action.
@ShadowWizard I actually think there's much more systemic issues :(
7:51 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, bad keyword with email in body, blacklisted website in body, pattern-matching website in body, +2 more (497): Best Aws Training in Noida by aashutosh webtrackker on salesforce.SE
I've often said SE sometimes has tunnel vision - and this is one of those situations
(and to some extent the ball's been dropped in terms of scaling community related stuff with the network)
Yup they hear only those with loudest shouting. The silent majority is ignored and hammered. Maybe if enough like Monica will shout back... Something will change?
@ShadowWizard No such command 'tweet'.
8:09 AM
We just need to find a columnist for a big newspaper who would be interested in writing an expose about SE, and then push feature requests in there :p
SO is one of those critical internet resources that is too big to fail.
I've just read a bunch of the tweets, some of them also mentioned in Monica's post. Seems to me that the particular twitter user is an outright terrible person causing significant damage to SE.
And Shane Madden threatening to remove moderators like that, what the actual fuck? Maybe they're the one who should be "removed".
@Stijn I think the big painful thing is
everyone on SE's end was probably doing what they felt was the best possible thing
there was good intent, and a genuine desire to help
@Stijn saving grace is shane is a SRE so they presumably do not have the authority to remove moderators
(I've interated with shane in the past in the heyday of SF and he's actually a pretty cool guy)
8:12 AM
also, if they actually removed any of our moderators over this there would be hell to pay
@JourneymanGeek I'd love to believe that 100% but it's hard...
@Stijn well, that's why this whole situation's hard
I know most of the people (well roughly as well as anyone on the internet) who're involved
well other than our tweeter
and I can't believe they'd be twirling their collective moustashes and go "How do we mess up our community management worse"
It seems to me that it's the small company without unified direction problem
@JourneymanGeek Who is Shane?
8:16 AM
maybe someone even decided not to listen to voices in the CM team cautioning otherwise :p
we'll never know
@Magisch ooh. kinda
8:29 AM
@Magisch I've often said - the community team hasn't really been allowed to scale with the network.
And to an extent, they need more people like Cat, directly interacting with the communities
I mean it's not a good thing that all the CMs are swamped beyond compare and yet unless you know where to look to the normal user it looks like the cm team barely does anything
9:17 AM
@Magisch If only there was just one meta so that everyone could see what was going on.
@TravisJ gee. If this had been on a meta...
@JourneymanGeek It is on meta.
@TravisJ now it is
It always has been.
9:20 AM
Every major issue that finally gets some sort of response, seemingly from one tweet, has been all over meta. It is scattered though. Almost every CM has chimed in somewhere, to some degree on most of these issues. However, getting a cohesive map of the responses is rather impossible given the current structure.
@TravisJ ah! And that's a problem
@JourneymanGeek Agree.
(and something I specifically brought up)
9:23 AM
(still agreeing)
@ShadowWizard Agreeing intensifies.
Going to airport... No wifi until evening. Cya!
sigh I'm half certain that someone commenting on one of my posts is a sock of a former mod.
bus delaying got few more minutes
9:29 AM
New shoes!
I rarely buy stuff so I am rather proud of myself. ;)
@JourneymanGeek who?
Why did SE suddenly decide to respond to "not constructive" complaints from a non-user within 40 minutes, while dismissing Masked Man's (and others') criticism for years despite him being a fairly regular user on at least one site with valuable contributions? Remember, what goes around comes around. You moderators are equally responsible for this situation getting out of hand. You kept defending SE's stupid decisions in the name of "constructive", leading to a belief that they can do whatever they want and mods will defend them. You mods were supposed to be checks and balances to prevent it. — Kuri_Kame 1 hour ago
@JourneymanGeek they are going on a comment spree
@NogShine only account is on meta?
I don't get how he feels yelling at SE all the time helps anything
SE employees are only human, and that approach is practically abuse.
@JourneymanGeek yeah
9:41 AM
the joke's on him. I actually feel he's welcome to his opinion, even if I don't think those approaches work for me as a person
@JourneymanGeek I didn't get how ranting on Twitter about a site that you don't use, then insulting people trying to have a respectful dialogue to address the issue would help either. But that clearly helped get the change done in 40 minutes, so why wouldn't yelling directly at SE help? It is certainly worth a shot.
@Kuri_Kame quite simply, its not how I do things.
And that's fine
That's more like it. :)
MM and I kinda disagreed a lot, and I ended up mostly ignoring him cause, to quote Shakespeare, he was "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"
All that I want to hear is for SE to accept that they made a mistake and they will stop doing so. Site moderators saying "they're only human" on their behalf doesn't quite get there.
9:47 AM
@Kuri_Kame I've interacted with both the employees that were involved.
Its a little harder to get frothing mad at someone who is an actual person to you.
I'm assuming good intent, and a system that needs a few solid hits with a wrench.
Look, everyone understands that nobody is correct all the time. But as long as you are sincerely trying to do the right thing, even if you screw up badly, people will take it in stride. Or at least, most reasonable people will
And I feel they were - just that those actions had cascading effects.
And a big part of that post was basically "Guys! You need a plan!"
What happened here was, "Oh crap, someone with a verified Twitter profile and a bazillion followers is ranting about us on Twitter. Gotta drop everything else and fix this first. Let all our volunteers who spent years building our brand go to hell, they don't affect our revenue, who cares about them?" That is not acceptable.
2 days ago, by Journeyman Geek
"we got scared by a tweet" -> keeps happening
We can agree with the first half of that and the second.
Now, with the rest? You are free to do things your way.
I don't really have any reason to fight with you any more than I have a reason to fight with another customer at a supermarket because of poor customer service.
9:53 AM
But I don't see me changing my approach of going through normal channels and working through and with whoever will listen
Anyway, with a site like SE having a certain reputation (no pun intended), it is reasonable to expect that they would treat their users fairly (or at least pretend to do so).
And when the day comes where it dosen't work, I'm gone.
Well, kinda.
for most part things just run themselves?
Its one reason SE has scaled well day to day as far as community goes. And probably why things go less well with stuff like this
Our mod teams are often really good with their own communities
If they can admit that they will run the site in this fashion, where window shoppers throwing stones at the supermarket from outside will be attended to on high priority, while paying customers who have been shopping there for ages will be ignored, then I guess people can choose to be window shoppers instead of paying customers.
ah, so there's the thing
I'd want there to be more engagement with the community when this happens
and in general
But that's a thing. How do you get management to go "hey, we need to spend more money there?"
cause if you can make that happen with an angry tweet, I think you'd never have to buy yourself a drink anywhere there's an SE mod. Ever.
@JourneymanGeek The actual reason why SE goes so well is people do a lot of their work for free. They don't need to test their changes before release because ... you know, people will raise problems on meta. People will enforce their site rules and prevent garbage from spreading in the comments or answers ... Stuff like that.
Once people stop doing those things and the company has to do all of those things in-house, it is a matter of 6 to 8 weeks...
@JourneymanGeek You know, I never really found this Twitter to be much useful. But now I'm considering creating an account there, and getting some thousand followers, so that I can get things done on SE with an angry tweet and obnoxious behaviour rather than a well considered "constructive" meta post.
10:01 AM
@Kuri_Kame and SE goes away
or essentially everything that makes SE special goes away, I guess
Question is - is it worth burning everything down?
I mean, I'm confused, you just have a meta account and nothing else
which is odd.
So.. what do you care?
The thing is, if someone understands only German, you can get things done faster if you tell them in German. If they don't know English, then writing a "constructive" request in English isn't going to get anything done.
I don't want to learn german
Now, SE has made it clear that "ranting on Twitter" is their German, while "posting on meta" is their English, and as it turns out, I'm actually quite good at their German, so why am I even trying to tell them in English? :P
Well, I don't rant, and generally it takes a lot to make me actually loose my cool.
@JourneymanGeek It is as you guessed. :)
10:05 AM
and usually that just means I let folks rant on and wander off somewhere and have ann ice cream
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer, potentially bad ns for domain in answer (81): Convert these to guitar tabs? by user53614 on music.SE
@Kuri_Kame Oh, if you're Masked Man (and man, there's a lot of clues), you can be you.
(I won't even be smug about guessing correctly)
@JourneymanGeek The thing is, I know enough about mod tools (of course), and I could have made it such that it is not at all obvious. But that's not how I do things. I don't do things dishonestly, unlike SE.
@Kuri_Kame ehh.
Lemme put it this way.
I totally respect that you have your heart on you sleeve, and were passionate about things
But I doubt I'll ever agree with that approach
I don't demand that people should agree with my approach. I just expect that people should be sincere in what they say and do. Things like suspending users for flagging an all caps shouting by looking up the database, while also claiming that they have a new CoC against exactly that kind of shouting is just not good in my book.
Long story short, don't be a hypocrite. If you are going to be abrasive, boorish or otherwise obnoxious, that's perfectly fine with me, even if you are attacking me all the time. ('You' is not referring to Journeyman.) But don't pretend to be a saint while doing so.
Anyway, it was nice catching up with you. I will probably be gone from the site for good for a long time now. I had decided to quit the site for good about 6 to 8 weeks ago, and stayed out of all the drama since then.
But this drama was too tempting and I couldn't resist the opportunity to twist the knife and rub some salt into their wounds. I would certainly have a huge celebration when the company crashing down one day (which will happen in a few years for sure), but I won't be actively pushing them over the cliff. I have better things to do with my time.
10:34 AM
yesterday, by Bart
My Tavern visits seem to have a pattern lately. Every time I join, I seem to get in at the tail-end of some outrage or drama I've missed. Then again, that seems to be a global thing these days. Everyone is permanently outraged about something, which in turn sees others outraged about the outrage. It's tiring.
Hah, but this time, my timing was just as perfect! Slept through the entire thing XD
high five
Sorry, rene got in the way.
As usual
10:37 AM
You have to be good at one thing. Being in the way is all I can do. But I perform that now flawlessly ...
Shows what practice can do ...
Time well spent
10:49 AM
@Bart sorry
Oh, no need to apologize @JourneymanGeek. It seems to be the way things go for quite some time now. I'm starting to think I'm just kind of done with the site/network myself. Which is a shame when I recall wanting to step up to mod elections only 2-3 years or so ago "if only I had the time". It's just not enjoyable anymore for me. Or not as enjoyable as it used to be.
@Bart and that is kind of something that needs to be addressed
Meh, I'm one user. Nothing needs to be addressed on my behalf. If it's a general sentiment, maybe.
@Bart Its a general sentiment I think
Without glasses we can't see clearly ...
10:55 AM
Let's see @JourneymanGeek. Plenty of open questions out there right now waiting for a response. But I fear it won't be much more than "We're discussing this internally. We should communicate better next time. We can't promise the end-result will be different because we feel strongly about this, but we hear you" and everything remains as it was.
@Bart and that's a key thing
That's what I think really needs fixing
I'll wait for that to happen then ;)
give it 6 to 8
@Bart Just stick around. I need someone I can dislike ;)
10:57 AM
@rene @Bart eh, maybe
I do start to think there needs to be a fundamental rethink of some things
but the folks who need to realise its needed are a wee bit higher up the food chain
@JourneymanGeek Honestly, the thing that crossed my mind most this weekend is that 'more welcoming to new users, women, minorities'... shouldn't come at the expense of 'welcoming to who's not in those groups' and that balance now seems skewed
@Tinkeringbell well, I was also thinking of how the relationship between the company and the users has changed
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