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2:01 AM
147
Q: Who cut the cheese?

Tim PostWe've moved quite a bit of stuff around this year, and you've been mostly patient with us while we overhauled our information architecture. This was no trivial needs more pop and a lens flare type of undertaking, we moved a significant amount of cheese. To kick off our fall anniversary series of...

my reaction:
get woke
very distastful promo
 
2:42 AM
@SomethingBadHappened ... dude, totally not what I wanted to walk into the first thing in the morning
8 messages moved to Chimney
 
 
2 hours later…
4:19 AM
Apparently, it's already afternoon...
 
4:48 AM
@JourneymanGeek feel free to move it to the trash bin room, it really isn't good fit here.
@KevinB bike or car? ;)
 
Also... Morning!
 
5 messages moved to Chimney
BUSY MORNING!
 
So, after this outrage and the TDD (Twitter Driven Development), have any SE core users started doing TDD?
@user202729 That's not the correct way! The correct way, if you want change, is to complain on Twitter! Meta discussions do nothing. — forest yesterday
These are great suggestions. Someone should post them on Twitter. — Hong Ooi 23 hours ago
 
Lol
Why busy
@JourneymanGeek
 
5:01 AM
Anyway... how many users realize there is "Today's Featured Site" on SE Homepage? Can we combine that feature with HNQ? (e.g. gives priority on questions from Featured Site, or revamp the whole HNQ to show the hottest 3 questions from Featured Site, or...)
nvm, it doesn't help with the controversial/clickbait questions selection...
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Url in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in title (391): amazonhealthstore.com/praltrix-south-africa/ by sedrsolandw on gaming.SE
 
5:17 AM
Latest SEEN: planned Pro Tempore election on Health Medical Science (medical professional preferred) and Quantum Computing
 
5:40 AM
@Somewhat 6-8 users
@Somewhat zero nominations and site being closed as result is not mentioned there...
 
@ShadowWizard bike would take waaaay to long
considering i'd have to stay off the highway
 
@Somewhat I commented on Monica's proposal to combine hot sites and hot questions. Just show hot sites only to visitors / low rep users.
 
@KevinB not 🚲, motorbike with engine... Usually faster than 🚗. ;-)
 
ah, no, parent's wouldn'ta allowed that
 
Some won't ask for permission..
@rene hot sites?? What's that?
:7316611 why
:/
 
6:06 AM
public Sites getHotSites() {
    return Sites.Bitcoin
}
 
> Invalid identifier: Sites
> Did you mean Site[]?
 
Wow, I failed as a junior programmer ;_;
 
6:26 AM
Maybe if we just RSS twitter into the Tavern, SE will start coming here for answers :P
Why would Sites.Bitcoin return an array of type Site?
Or even a list of Sites?
 
6:46 AM
@TravisJ hey stop hammering poor @Somewhat he already admitted failure. ;)
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Url in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted username, blacklisted website in body, +8 more (885): Enduro Stack : www.visit4supplements.com/enduro-stack/ by chresldson on puzzling.SE
 
@ShadowWizard HAMMERZEIT
 
@ShadowWizard sites with lots of hot questions? I don't know yet its definition. I just invented it. From now on I demand you all use the proper trademark: Hot Sites ™
a flower invention
sd del
 
7:18 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer (91): "Track changes" in LaTeX by Lex Brian on tex.SE
 
 
3 hours later…
10:21 AM
@ShadowWizard worked ended in the morning, then had to do a grocery run. Then I apparently fell asleep for 5 hours
 
@JourneymanGeek oh. What did you buy?
 
Orange Juice, shower foam, shampoo, soil ....
 
@rene based on this logic there should also be Cold5Sites then! :P
@JourneymanGeek soil? To bury the milk?
Juice
 
naw, for planting things
though burying the milk sounds like a good idea
oh and a tap
 
Lol
Why foam and not soap?
 
10:33 AM
its neater
 
Well think what I always use is also not soap but rather gel.
 
@ShadowWizard Cue a bunch of girls running into the chatroom...
 
@ShadowWizard Never seen those tv ads? :P
 
(didn't read the description just posted first result I found ;))
 
10:40 AM
They always made me wonder... if girls like the smell of Axe so much, why do they sell it as a men's soap? :P
 
@Tinkeringbell oh... Lol we had such ads long ago
I use it because it is the only brand which is not too liquid
 
@ShadowWizard That's true... there's a lot of really liquid brands out there
 
11:03 AM
@ShadowWizard soap dishes are icky
Also it's easier in the army- where I picked up the habit
I usually use the sort with a hand pump
 
11:14 AM
@JourneymanGeek in the army I had the square solid soap bar.
The one that often falls to the floor and.....
:-D
 
@ShadowWizard I still use (a certain brand only) soap bars, but that has got more to do with the fact that my skin doesn't seem to react to certain kinds of surfactants well.
 
@ShadowWizard we have a few odd Local army traditions
Like tactical Pringles
 
11:55 AM
Tactical... Pringles...? imagining tactical potato chips...
 
@Somewhat in SAF parlance tactical is stealthy
unlike american tactical
so basically smuggled in pringles and you got the most chips for your volume, which is important
 
Huh, interesting!
 
12:24 PM
@ShadowWizard fine I voted to close the rape-glamorizing promo instead
 
@SomethingBadHappened I don't think you really care about the cows.
PETA's fully of crap. And they are perfectly fine with murdering animals.
 
I don't actually like PETA but they have decent summaries and people know who they are.
I do actually care about the issue and don't consume dairy any more.
But I see it on every page
(hence I am glad we threw our dairy industry under the bus in the NAFTA negotiations, because those absuers don't need our government's protection)
 
shrug deal with it.
Cause I don't really think its about the dairy
 
It's never about one thing.
 
No its not. Its just that pattern of, well, I guess "lets say a thing to get a reaction"
 
12:33 PM
That is a pattern.
 
@SomethingBadHappened I saw that. Ok, so. I'm from a culture where cows are sacred, and milk's part of our culture and diet
 
:7316779 That's crossing the line.
 
So, I'm personally offended by this
That crossed the line. Please think about what you did. Even deleted.
 
12:54 PM
@SomethingBadHappened that is valid use of your powers as veteran SE user.
@JourneymanGeek yummy!
@Tinkeringbell these days my skin gets super dry if I use soap bar. Guess I got old... :(
 
@ShadowWizard I'm luckily still at the age, and marital status where I can get away with not bothering too much about what I wash with, as long as it cleans XD
(hopefully I will need to clean up and not look like a hobo soon but not yet XD)
 
@JourneymanGeek good for you! :D
 
@ShadowWizard not perfect but I can deal XD
 
So you don't use specific soap brand?
 
1:01 PM
Umm... That is spam.
Video download + link = spam.
 
Umm... That is Hrithik Roshan.
 
Flagged.
Thik what??
 
@Somewhat Who's that?
 
@Tinkeringbell dunno, but I trust Google's Reverse Image Search :/
 
IRL friend?
Oh
So even worse spammer use fake image.
 
1:04 PM
@Somewhat The actor definitely looks prettier.
I don't think they're the same person
 
but, but, Google is never wrong...
like... wut.
First result of "absurd google translate" = Google Translate of "you are stupid idiot" from English to French" @_@
 
@JourneymanGeek I am sorry for making the remark too general. I am referring to 95% of the (heavily industrialized) North American dairy industry here. Not independent farmers, nor other countries/culture, since I'm ignorant of the situation there.
 
@SomethingBadHappened Its not just about that - its the terms you're using, and you're upsetting folks
@ShadowWizard indian action move actor
 
It is an upsetting topic, the grotesque torture of billions of lives.
That is the correct emotion to feel.
 
@SomethingBadHappened I don't think you're really getting it. or are and are being obtuse on purpose
If you do want to talk about this topic, you might want to find a more appropriate place for it
 
1:17 PM
Stack is taking actions driven by moral impulses they feel strongly about but the broader community doesn't share.
I am reflecting that.
 
Its stack's space. And we're probably going to have many conversations on the topic over time (as long as I'm a regular) on how we can do things better.
If we're starting, and continueing a topic in good faith, and using somewhat less emotive language its cool
If you're going to call milk "rape juice" and post pictures of animal abuse cause the current SE contest is about cheese....
I'm not seeing good faith
 
Good faith gets you nowhere here.
Not that this gets me anywhere either.
 
I think I joined just after the deleted remark, and don't know what it was, and am not entirely sure how animal rights starting being discussed here, but FWIW there are a lot of vegans who view animal farming as a tremendous evil worthy of comparison to slavery or the Holocaust or one of the other great evils from human history, and I don't think that should be an unspeakable position on Stack Exchange.
It's inherently going to be upsetting to a lot of people because it's a view that amounts to accusing most of humanity to being complicit in a terrible evil. But if that's what somebody sincerely believes, what are they meant to do? Just never speak out lest it's upsetting?
 
Quite. My mom was arrested at an animal rights protest a couple of years ago; I hear a lot from that perspective, even if I'm not 100% there myself (yet).
coffee break
 
@MarkAmery It's all in how the speaking out is done. And in this case, it wasn't constructive.
 
1:26 PM
¯_(ツ)_/¯... like I said, I didn't see the exact comment. But I think expecting people to discuss the topic without using "emotive language" or terms that risk "upsetting folks" is an unreasonable standard to impose when one side's views, however they're expressed, are inherently going to be emotive and upsetting for people on the other side to hear; it amounts to banning a viewpoint. That's the extent of what I'm saying.
 
@MarkAmery So, if they're going to be upsetting anyway, don't mind your words at all? That's nice to know.
 
Not what I meant, @Tinkeringbell
 
@MarkAmery You can express an upsetting view in a way that gives people room to interact with you... or in a way that shouts 'my way is the right way'. So when discussing controversial topics, keeping out the emotive language or the terms that carry a higher risk of upsetting people is a very important part of keeping a civil discourse.
Of course, if your goal isn't a discussion but just shouting from a high soapbox... you can use any language you want, but aren't likely to be allowed to put your soapbox in an SE chatroom
 
Meh - I can't really judge whether I agree with that position without knowing where you see the boundary between "emotive language" and "an upsetting view" expressed without "emotive language".
Plenty of people would characterize just asserting that meat consumption is immoral as using "emotive language" (and be profoundly angered by the suggestion)
 
> Specific diction is used to evoke emotion in the reader.
 
1:36 PM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive title detected (55): Fix Bullshit Modifier? by user63617 on blender.SE
 
so yeah... asserting 'meat consumption is immoral'... that's the emotive language that goes with concern trolling and soapboxing (See what I did there?). The world isn't ideal, but if you want a civil discourse you might better state that you don't like meat consumption, because of your own moral compass.
 
Huh
I was in the process of writing, based upon your definition of emotive language (based on the purpose of the language choice rather than the effect), that I actually had no disagreement with you
 
So...
If I come into a random SE chatroom
 
But then you applied it to my example that was deliberately crafted to be as unemotive as possible and decided it was too emotive
So, as it turns out, I definitely do disagree with you
 
@MarkAmery I must admit I applied two purposes to your example
 
1:41 PM
(Also, I think your proposed rewrite just plain doesn't mean the same thing.)
 
The first one, would be like going into a random place, and shouting at random people that meat consumption is immoral.
so yeah, in that case, it's is emotive language, the specific diction is used to invoke emotion in the readers. They either agree or disagree, are happy you said that or get angry.
The second one is when you're in a place with people you're actually interested in talking with... and in that case, you don't want people to get angry or disagreeable. So you use a different way of expressing the same thing, that you think meat consumption is immoral.
 
@MarkAmery consider "I disagree with SE having a contest about cheese, because I feel that the practices of the north american diary industry are unethical"
 
You actually use emotive language in both cases, but you use them to invoke different emotions.
 
vs linking something from PETA and using specific terms.
(which I don't want to repeat again, its in the scrollback)
 
@JourneymanGeek Uh, consider that probably fails to meet your own standard as applied by Tinkeringbell (unless she thinks that either this a difference in emotiveness between "unethical" and "immoral", or that the "I feel" eliminates the emotiveness)
 
1:47 PM
@MarkAmery Its an opinion
I can disagree with your opinion. But the difference is I'm not stating opinion as fact
 
Eh, my ability to participate usefully in this conversation is limited by not knowing what the stuff that got deleted was
 
Its also a lot less distressing for folks
XD
True!
 
For all I knew until you gave an example it could've been exactly the thing that you just gave as an example of how to not be emotive, and I assumed it was something like that
 
@MarkAmery well the term people took offense with was mentioned.
I just don't want to keep using that word in discussing it
 
ah, the "rape juice"
 
1:50 PM
.... ya. that term
 
I'm with you
 
@MarkAmery in addition I think a lot of folks wouldn't feel comfortable with that word being used ... in or out of context.
 
Well, FWIW, I agree that the term you take issue with is gratuitously provocative and that a civil conversation about the topic (even one where one party genuinely wanted to make the case that dairy farming is morally equivalent to rape, which may or may not have been the case here) does not require using it. I still take issue, in the abstract, with your standards of language for being too vague and broad
(That is, the standards as I quoted 'em in chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/7316862#7316862)
But anyway. I was just dropping in. Wasn't expecting to land in the middle of a moderation + animal rights debate!
 
@MarkAmery It's always fun when you drop in ;)
 
@MarkAmery with chat, the standards are what we set
(And I take a slightly laxer view towards language - I remind, not go OMG SWEARWORD KICK)
and its hard to set hard, standard rules on stuff like this
we just have to use our best judgement and try to work out what works best for the community we want
 
1:59 PM
@Tinkeringbell BTW, I never addressed this: I couldn't tell if you were saying that when trying to have a non-angry/non-disagreeable conversation, one would avoid the framing of meat consumption as "immoral", or agreeing with me that in such a context you'd use that as a non-emotive way of expressing the idea. I think the you meant the former but I was a bit confused.
@Tinkeringbell Good to hear :)
To me a question of whether something is "moral" or "immoral" mostly conjures up not-particularly-emotive thoughts of philosophical thought experiments involving levers and trains
 
@MarkAmery If I can, I would avoid framing it as 'immoral' by framing it as 'not in line with my personal morals/principles'. But it depends heavy on who you're interacting with as well, cause I've seen people argue that such a phrasing tends to carry a 'better than thou' undertone too.
 
Trolleys, even, not trains. They're meant to be trolleys.
 
@MarkAmery Oooh... trolleys :) I have a really nice little book on that :)
But yeah, moral and especially immoral aren't used in a philosophical sense much nowadays.
 
@MarkAmery but the framing here is as an opinion over an absolute truth
Anyway, how that was said was unacceptable
 
So unless you're already having a philosophical discussion... that's going to be seen more as preaching than inviting that philosophical discussion. (Especially on the internet)
 
2:04 PM
@JourneymanGeek I agree that such a framing in general helps to civilise an otherwise hostile argument. (And often that's true even if what's at... steak... isn't a moral issue at all.)
 
Sorry, couldn't resist.
 
pins a medal for epic punnery on @MarkAmery . Then defenestrates him
@MarkAmery My ability to frame things is about the only reason people don't think I'm a complete pollock ;p
 
@JourneymanGeek Before wandering off, I'm inclined to point out that in this remark you frame a moral (or sort-of-moralish) point as an absolute truth in the context of arguing that people should not frame such points as absolute truths
I think that's a totally natural thing to do that people do all the time
 
2:09 PM
@MarkAmery true, but in this case I think I made the judgement call based on the sentiments of folks on the channel
We've basically drawn a line, so.. ya, the choice of an absolute term was intentional, even if subconcious
 
But for precisely that reason I'm inclined to be tolerant of it, and view framings like "I think" or "I feel" before moral statements just as a best practice when trying to be sensitive rather than as a minimum standard of decency
sure
 
heh. In a sense, with the RO hat on, I sometimes need to speak authoritatively
(actually something I seem to struggle with)
 
anyway, it's 3:15PM over here and I've done nothing useful so far today, so I'm off. Good arguing with y'all, as ever. :)
 
This is not a place to upset people no matter how strongly you feel towards something. (no pun intended)
 
@ShadowWizard But but... that's upsetting :(
 
2:17 PM
lol
@ShadowWizard you can't keep people happy all the time
but you can be mindful that, well...
people can be unhappy?
 
World is cruel. World is full with injustice. People get murdered and raped every moment, somewhere. We can't fix that. And sharing vulgar stuff about such things won't help any cause as well, just the opposite. (e.g. make people here irritated thus they will not even see the reasoning behind the offensive stuff)
 
I rest my case... Now back to hindering @Bart with a daily random ping! ;-)
 
XD
Apparently the most recent girl we emailed over matchmaking dosen't want to leave india. Oh well. I managed to establish that calling people results on quick replies. That's a positive step.
 
hiding from Smiting Stick
@JourneymanGeek why looking for girls in India? Not enough around where you live these days?
 
2:23 PM
@ShadowWizard yeah
 
we're a smallish community
Its fine. I'm expecting a lot of rejections.
The important part here (still) is getting a process that works for us, and gets leads + quick responses, even if its a rejection XD
(IE I have no idea what happens next if someone says maybe XD)
 
Hope you'll see soon enough! ;)
 
2:42 PM
I hope so too XD
 
So, why there's animal rights, but no vegetation rights?
 
@Somewhat There is... why else do you think we are trying to save the rainforest?
 
Hmm... then those who eats only plants but not meat... 🤔
(looks like I'm treading a dangerous line)
 
I sometimes don't know what to react when someone says inappropriate content has been posted.
 
2:58 PM
Chat moderation is hard, let's go shopping...
 
I think the CoC should be updated with new words like 'Be polite, don't be rude, don't damage your name' :|
 
3:16 PM
@NogShine If it was easy....
The tough part about chat moderation is that its both time sensitive and affects the broader complexion of the chat room
 
@JourneymanGeek If it was easy, they should add "Have a good farewell" should also be added. You know..
 
I read that as "have a good firewall" -_-;
 
Are you from SuperUser.SE?
;)
 
3:37 PM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer (94): Why can a wallet not compute the private-key from a public-key? by Mehri9 on bitcoin.SE
 
3:49 PM
@Somewhat we all have! Our Immune System! ;)
 
@ShadowWizard we all have a firewall. I'd leave out the good then :P
 
@Somewhat vegetation do not feel; animals do, in a sense. So there is point and logic behind those fighting for their rights. But same is true for any fight around the world... This room is not the place to discuss those with gory details.
@Tinkeringbell are you a virus?! ;-)
 
@ShadowWizard I am contagious ;)
 
achoo!!!
 
achoo!!!
 
4:17 PM
tiny sneezes
 
sniffles
 
4:32 PM
If you're all sick, I should stay away...
 
Or enhance your immune system!
Nice new avatar, @Mith. :)
 
5:33 PM
@ShadowWizard Thanks! It was custom drawn by avazula on IPS :)
This is the full version:
 
What does the sticker in Hebrew say?
 
"echad mi yodeya"
"who knows one"
It's the name of a song sung on Passover.
 
5:56 PM
@Mithrandir is this a character from any show?
 
@NogShine no
It's an "artists interpretation" of me + my previous avatar.
 
Oh ok
 
6:41 PM
@Mithrandir who is avazula?
 
Nice... Is he (she?) from Israel too?
 
No, she's French.
 
I see.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:51 PM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in title, potentially bad keyword in body, potentially bad keyword in title (100): A question of arithmetic regarding erection cost of a structure. by math maniac. on math.SE
 
@SmokeDetector fpu
 
@ShadowWizard Registered question as false positive and whitelisted user.
 
wait why are you whitelisting them?
 
Valid use of the "bad" word.
@Mithrandir they have other bad posts? Didn't check...
 
doesn't whitelisting a user only block their username from triggering username based regexes?
 
8:01 PM
Whitelisting excludes the user from username checks. That's all. A "fp" feedback will remove them from the blacklist.
 
If only this it is valid question for that site, no need to blacklist user.
@Mithrandir oh... Will use fp then in the future
 
@Mithrandir No such command 'rmwl'.
@Mithrandir User removed from whitelist (598690 on math.stackexchange.com).
 
@ShadowWizard the time of that post seems to perfectly coincide with when my migraine developed ... I blame you for that one.
 
8:23 PM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in body (99): How to connect devices using fixed ip or routing? by Asher Khan on superuser.com
 
stackoverflow.com/questions/52519751/… Just asking how to do something in non-programming-related software. My vote expired.
 
9:15 PM
@Bart let's see...
!!/blame
 
@ShadowWizard It's Kevin B's fault.
 
No match
 
nah, it's Shadow's fault
!!/blame᠎ ​‌᠎⁠⁠⁠᠎
 
@Mithrandir It's Shadow Wizard's fault.
 
Or maybe it's Bart's own fault...
!!/blame᠎ ​‌⁠᠎⁣‌
o_o
 
9:16 PM
@Mithrandir It's Bart's fault.
 
!!/blame᠎ ​‌⁠᠎⁣‌
 
@Mithrandir It's Bart's fault.
 
well you're being slow
 

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