Especially after reading that book I just mentioned, it scared me a little what would happen if the trends described there didn't reverse/halt at some time.
There are recent cases in Germany also. No matter what, that's usually not related to drugs, being alien or something. Individuals are individuals, and have to be handled as such.
@JourneymanGeek True, but there's stuff you can't cure... So even if you're not going to be put to death, there should at least be very adequate measures in place to make sure you're never going to hurt society again.
Now, after 25 years, you're automatically entitled to a reintegration into society plan (there's some advice counsil that handles those, although it doesn't mention if it has the power to decline them too. The article goes on immediately after with:) if you do follow through on that plan and do it well, you're eligible to be freed from jail
@JourneymanGeek Well, the society has to take lifelong care with such people. It raises incredible costs and many people asking is that worth it. But if we aren't able to handle psychopaths of that kind, what would you give about us. Extinguishing lives in prevention for other lives doesn't really seem to make up justice at all.
But what's the difference between, well, modern civilised society, and... well, a lot of the worse aspects of the past if we can't try to help the worst of us
@Tinkeringbell technically the death penalty is one way they won't be a problem any more...
@JourneymanGeek Hmmm. I think I've read somewhere that it achieves the exact opposite, because of 'I got nothing to loose, I can just as well do this and die if it goes wrong'
It's not the question to get those people really fixed one day. But taking their lives is just for no goods. Many victims relatives say, that won't bring back our sister, brother, father, whatever. Killing people never is a good answer, at least give them a chance to learn.
@JohnDvorak There's a dutch song... 'Och, was ik maar een gijzelaar!'. Basically the singer is wishing they were a hostage so they wouldn't have to care for themselves ;)
@πάνταῥεῖ that belief is an essential part of preventive police work
when I was younger we actually had a TV show called crimewatch (which school kids were encouraged to watch) which was all "the police is awesome and you WILL NEVER GET AWAY WITH IT!"
@JohnDvorak I find that a weird thing to show. It's like putting up warnings you're 300 times more likely to die from cows than coyotes... until you realize that we keep and handle cows much more often than coyotes ;)
@SonictheInclusiveWerehog Not the down-voter, but I guess that bug report was negatively received because a) there are no examples for this abuse and b) what would be the purpose of that abuse (changing your name every 15 min sounds tedious).
So, are we getting any feedback? Because I feel bad letting the broken page like that... but I want things to be fixed. — coniferous_smellerULPBG-W8ZgjR8 mins ago
@πάνταῥεῖ @JourneymanGeek @Tinkeringbell After thinking about this for a while, I've decided on the above compromise. To allow others to easily search for such requests and to help keep my identity, I'll be keeping the existing tag name. However, to help make clear to non-regulars and address the complaints of using non-standard terms, I'll add in the words "close as duplicate". And as before, I won't use Sonic references when referring to these terms in normal speech.
@SonictheInclusiveWerehog Honestly. First of all that's another random ping, and secondly... you don't get to twist a request from a room owner into your own version of a 'compromise'. You were requested to use 'standard terms' only as far as I recall the conversation from this afternoon.
You don't get to decide, and I think that after the amount of arguing that was done already this afternoon, it's not even in your place to bring the topic up again
I wasn't the one who brought up the topic; I just made a request, unless making the request constitutes bringing it up again. I only started composing the next two messages because of Mith's message.
"no random pings" doesn't always mean "no pings", but you seem to be incapable of grasping the difference. So, for you, "no frivolous pings" will boil down to "no pings".
doesn't even have to be forever, just right now people are on edge regarding you and maybe will react harsher because of your history. Take that into account and lay low for a while.
you know as well as any other that recommendations like that aren't really something a relative stranger can give easily. Even if it comes from close friends with much more careful wording then that it's usually not well recieved.
I'm tempted to simply ask you to refrain from making such requests in the first place, @Sonic - you're trying to get people to use powers that you haven't earned yet to perform simple moderation tasks that are not a.) especially urgent or b.) especially controversial / difficult. You're bypassing the normal channels for his kind of thing. And then on top of that, you've been asked multiple times to use standard terms. You haven't.
Here's a thought: if this room can't decide whether dupehammer pings are good things or not, perhaps it's time to move them to another room - like CRUDE, like SOCVR, but Meta.
@πάνταῥεῖ I've been keeping quiet about this but will finally step in. I don't feel comfortable when others shout "this guy needs professional help" in a public discussion group. If you believe that someone needs professional help, pull them aside and tell them privately later, and explain why. Don't shout it out publicly or else it comes across as a snide remark.
@SonictheInclusiveWerehog I rather have you use the standards term as was asked by Mith. I don't mind being pinged for a mod request, as long as you stick to the standards used across the network.
Also, with the previous argument, I've at least explained each reason that was given to me and explained why I think those are not as heavy. However, no one has addressed the two previous reasons I've given: searchability and a feel of personal identity.
@πάνταῥεῖ It'll likely help you to build a better image though. Go shut of the internet and have another drink. And don't drink so much you'll have another hangover!
@SonictheInclusiveWerehog because you're not listening. There are no blocking reasons why you shouldn't - so, do what you've been asked to do by the people who are helping you out by volunteering their powers for your requests.
I'm trying my best to compromise. This seems like a complete win-lose situation to me. My requests won't be searchable among my prior requests and I'll lose my sense of identity.
Would [dupehammer-pls] not work? Could you please explain exactly why it won't work?
@SonictheInclusiveWerehog because [tag:cv-pls] duplicate [link] will work perfectly well and matches some already established standards across the network.
@Mithrandir In case someone wants to compile statistics about whether my pings are effective or not. For example, if someone wanted to check for pings where the question wasn't closed at all vs. the request was granted vs. the question was subsequently closed by the community.
And just when you think things are fixed. RO's don't speak for themselves when correcting problematic behavior. You should listen to them. They're not RO's because they make good rogues or dictators. You can't expect every user to tell you if they have problem with something
You can't even remember if you've pinged me on a subject or not, why do you expect everyone to tell you their preferences all the time and are promising to take those into account when it shows you can't do so?
@Tinkeringbell A long time ago, Journeyman Geek asked me not to ping them for this reason. Did I ever do so later (except for a couple of what I thought were exceptions because he was involved)? No.
(But when I thought it was an exception, I made it clear that I knew he had asked me not to do it ordinarily.)
I told you in May that I didn't like pings prying into my personal opinions on stuff, yet I had to tell you again recently. Whatever you're doing, it isn't working.
@SonictheInclusiveWerehog you should listen to whatever an RO tells you to do, no matter if they are involved or not. Don't make that mistake too often. I didn't tell you earlier because it wasn't clear if we wanted to allow it or not. Turns out we don't and you asked me about it so I told you how to proceed into the future.
You know, I had some emotional attachment to the name "chaos emerald", and I didn't want that to go away, because of my character. Part of my argument above was driven by that.
@SonictheInclusiveWerehog If it was a diamond moderator asking you to stop, even if they weren't receiving the pings, would you still react the same way?
So, in this case, a RO is equivalent to a mod on the site. That site being the Tavern.
Meta.SE has no regular mods to moderate the chatroom. So that falls to the ROs appointed to watch the room.
That's always true in regard to ROs, actually - they are the first "line of defense" of authority in a chat room.
Whether or not the person asking you to stop has the ability to suspend you or not shouldn't affect the outcome much.
I actually don't like pulling out the mod or RO hat to be "the authority" and laying down the law. But here, I'm going to, as a diamond mod on SE and a RO here: Treat requests from the RO team of the Tavern as you would a local moderator on their site's main chatroom.
Essentially, @SonictheInclusiveWerehog, the members of the RO team are the ones trusted with the moderation and upkeep of the room. Not having a diamond here shouldn't matter. Whether or not you've had run-ins with a specific RO in the past.
You've had it pointed out to you multiple times, on several occasions, that making the dupehammer requests in the way you did was not ideal, and you were asked to change it. You decided to ignore that every single time.
Also mixed up into this, you don't seem to get when pinging a user is appropriate. People tried to explain to you, but it appears to be either all or nothing with you.
This has actively led to people avoiding this room.
You were asked to refrain from posting here for a week. You proved incapable of the self-moderation required to do that, leading to the need to actually ask a staff member to give you a suspension.
This disregard of requests that people have made of you, combined with your obsessive tendencies and lack of self-moderation, has led to a toxic atmosphere in the room, which has led to other consequences, such as staff members stopping to visit here.
All in all, your presence has, unfortunately, been a net negative in this room.
I'd really like to see you improve that.
But people are real people, and people run out of patience at some point.
My goals with this room thus far have been: 1. to be able to talk to staff members and obtain more information on the various intricacies of the software that powers SE sites 2. to be able to turn off my neurotypical emulator and talk to people who are also interested in SE, my autistic "special interest", and exchange information at length about SE. I understand I can't meet the first goal here, but is my second goal out of alignment with this room?
Every interaction with another human is social. Moderating your own actions to be in line with what other people can expect isn't putting on a mask or faking it, it's social intelligence. Most people do not actually just straight up say every thing that crosses their mind. Social interactions wouldn't ever work that way.
If, on the other hand, you met me in real life, you wouldn't see me behave like this - if I did, my parents wouldn't have let me fly 1,200 miles away from home.
@SonictheInclusiveWerehog it is impossible to take your opinions into account if they are conflicting with what we consider to be healthy for the room. You simply have to agree to treat RO's as mods here. There is no other option.
You'll find that even with close friends and especially in social settings nobody is going to cut you infinite slack. You have to find your way into healthy social interactions yourself. Yes I know it's hard. I have about 10 years of very painful trial and error and alienating everyone around me past me. It's not something that comes natural, neither to you nor to me. It's no excuse though
pointing back to a condition isn't going to endear anyone. it might make people understand more but it won't change the social dynamics themselves.
And no, I'm sorry, but using "I'm autistic" only goes so far. Yes, you have a disability; no, that does not excuse you from the rules and etiquette here. Sorry for the extreme bluntness.
My opinion is that it should be mutual: not only should the "special person" attempt to fit in, the others should be aware that the "special person" has different behavior patterns and adjust themselves accordingly.
Maybe I'm biased in this because I've had very similar experiences like yourself here on SE. Everyone isn't gonna adapt to you. You have to adapt to everyone.
You can be of the opinion that something isn't optimal and still abide by it
The others - they don't have the goal of changing your opinion. They want you to act differently.
Part of life is picking your battles - sometimes the non optimal solution is what you end up with. Some things are not worth fighting. Some things are worth accepting in the name of social peace and unity. Everyone has to compromise
One firm opinion I hold is that if someone behaves a certain way and the other gets annoyed, if I tell them in advance to let me know if they get annoyed and they don't, and then they later lose patience or get angry, I believe it's their fault because they didn't tell me about the annoyance earlier.
@Magisch I tried compromising. I used requests of the form "[chaos-emerald-pls] close as duplicate". But that wasn't accepted. In the end, I settled on a solution that has none of the pros I listed earlier.
It hardly ever works that way. Not everyone likes to complain. People aren't naturally confrontational. Especially if you have a history of dragging every disagreement into a prolonged discussion that is emotionally exhausting and feels like guilt tripping
What we're seeing now is that people think to themselves "I'd rather just not come to the tavern then deal with sonic and his pings. I don't want to justify myself everytime I don't want one and I'm tired of having to argue every nuance of this"
In other words, if someone says "please stop [x] because [y]", if I evaluate the reason [y] and think it's not a valid reason, or if it's a very minor reason to cause the overall pros to be tipped over by the overall cons, I may continue doing [x].
And what that person does not want is engage in a discussion with you about the merits of reason X
They want you to stop doing it. People rarely formulate out a whole chapter about all the reasons they don't want X. They give some reason because if they don't you'll ask and they don't have the time or energy for that.
You shouldn't need to be explicitly told to stop doing things that people consider annoying in the first place. And then to disregard that request because you disagree with it? That's just rude and inconsiderate.
Even if the discussion ends up being productive and you come to a resolution, that is still emotional labor. People come here to relax. Employees specifically
they're not here to continue being hounded about insignificant aspects of their job
And we're at such a point where they'd rather just not come then deal with what inevitably follows
Seperate yourself from your perspective for a sec and see it from their point of view
You're on thin ice, @Sonic. I'd advise being careful to heed advice you're given (especially by the RO team) and to honor requests made of you. And maybe work on toning down the obsessiveness a bit.
Now, to switch to a completely different topic... *grumble*, having to take care of dishes at 00:40 is annoying
I'd like to think of my superpower as being able to give the impression that I'm older than I actually am online, but it's debatable if I actually succeed in that ;)
@SonictheInclusiveWerehog erm. Considering that I made that request multiple times already and I personally have deeper issues with it as mith brought up too ... Eh. Whatever
Now more importantly
From the rest of that.
1) no one here is going to see you as a victim
2) you're falling , nay happily tap-dancing into the trap of not listening to anything you don't want, and using twisty logic to justify that. This is dangerous
3) as we understand - the RO team has the full support of the CM team and trying to say we are not mods is not a great argument. Besides most of the current RO team has a ton of experience running a chatroom.
