Tavern on the Meta

Journeyman Geek

12:02 AM

Has a while

Oops

@OptimusPrime no. She replaces ana

ɪʙᴜɢ

1:48 AM

Shog9

oh man, I skipped out for happy hour & missed happy hour

OTOH, I discovered "heliocentric hefeweizen", which is a very nice - not overly-sweet - wheat beer with a distinct lactobacillus aroma

So I feel like I made a fair trade

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

2:22 AM

5 hours ago, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

What do you guys think of this proposed edit to the banning FAQ? (I want feedback before it's put into place.)

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 also a future Ubuntu release name

Robert Columbia

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog on line 20, I would change "the fact that a question is deleted" to "the fact that you have deleted a question", considering that the answer you link to there is about self-deletion.

Journeyman Geek

@ɪʙᴜɢ nooooo. Using root should be avoided

Catija

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog STOP EDITING MY POST!!!

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@RobertColumbia Got it. Would be great if you star the original message instead, as it appears ugly in the star board on the right.

Shog9

2:32 AM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog too elaborate to consider, too conservative to help

Robert Columbia

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog ok

Shog9

If I have to query the database to figure out who flagged that, they're getting suspended. Just FYI

so be it

It's not spam, it's not offensive, it's not rude, or crude, or harassment, or a violation of the CoC, it's a request. To be honored or ignored or perhaps taken under advisement.

But now I have to wait for someone else to handle it, so both of you are gonna wait until that happens.

Optimus Prime

2:53 AM

@ɪʙᴜɢ totally wrong

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

3:42 AM

@Catija Sorry for the flag. I understand that you were in the heat of the moment at the time you posted that. (cc @Shog9)

And sorry for bothering you guys on a Friday evening :)

Also, new conversation: I don't answer phone calls from phone numbers I don't recognize.

I get a lot of spam.

Shog9

I just ignore local numbers now. Spammers are too predictable.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

I just now got two phone calls in a row from the same Austin-based phone number. My phone number is from San Diego, and it doesn't seem to be an official number from a source I'm expecting.

Great, now a call from a toll-free number.

Shog9

After this time of night, I just send calls to voicemail unless they're in my contacts. Much easier

I'm so excited. Got a replacement final drive bearing and seals, carb gasket and new plug for my motor scooter. Tomorrow, I should have it running again after a couple of years sitting idle.

Bought it back in '06 when gas prices spiked above $3/gal; they're not quite so bad yet, but less money spent on gas is always good.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

3:57 AM

Turns out it was a Prime Now deliveryperson calling me to let me know they're ready with my order.

Shog9

Fancy

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Ah, I remember in SoCal when gas prices at our local pump were $4.65 per gallon for regular, and our car required premium fuel

San Diego's gas prices are about 75 cents more on average than Austin's.

Shog9

I don't know how anyone can afford to drive in California

Or live

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 SoCal's more affordable than the Bay Area, for sure

Shog9

Isn't... Everywhere?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

4:00 AM

You can't compare SoCal with LA, the SF bay area or rural California

Shog9

When you got folks making three figures and living in a van... That's kinda the definition of unaffordable

a former neighbor used to live in san luis obispo. Ran a print shop; I still have a couple of grow lights I made from his old shop signs.

He'd regale us with stories of time spent on the beach, of driving dune buggies over the sand

He was always kinda... wistful... about his time there. But sooner or later, you gotta face up to the fact that the life you enjoyed was only possible in that particular time.

Whatever SoCal is now, it's for a different set of folks.

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 .... Three figures a month?

Shog9

4:15 AM

in the US, by year is traditional

Somewhat

yearly!?

Shog9

rarely does anyone relay monthly salaries; by hour, then by week, then by year

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

In India, I commonly hear salaries referred to as per month

But here in the U.S., it's usually by year.

Shog9

er... I suppose I meant to say six figures

it's late, and I was on my phone

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 I would understand if you were typing numerals, but your use of word form makes that excuse a little leery :)

Somewhat

4:20 AM

that's... 5 (or actually, whole) characters off...

🤔

Shog9

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog oh, definitely not a typo. More like... I'm counting digits in my head and my head is more'n a bit fuzzy

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Yeah, I get it, with "k" and all

@Shog9 I like San Diego. I really believe it lives up to the name "America's Finest City".

Somewhat

and I'm still not getting used to Japanese and Chinese grouping of 10k...

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 ah. That makes more sense

Shog9

San Diego is a beautiful city; I've enjoyed my time there each time I've visited.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

4:27 AM

@Shog9 When was the last time?

Shog9

Probably... late '15?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

What were you doing there? Just visiting?

Shog9

'15 was a company-wide meetup

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

SE held a meetup in San Diego?

Shog9

yep

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

4:28 AM

Was there any public announcement of that?

Shog9

prior to that, I was there in... I think '03?

Maybe '02. It's been a long time

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog not officially

Shog9

The gaslight district was pretty slick, and that big-ass bridge

Journeyman Geek

We hear mentions of them periodically tho :p

Shog9

an old friend told me there was a damn good bloody mary to be had from a place down off the beach, but I couldn't find it

Always bugged me, that

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

4:30 AM

@Shog9 Karl Strauss, perhaps? (I'm too young to drink, and a teetotaler otherwise, so I could be wrong.)

The last time we truly visited San Diego was back when my cousins showed up from India, this last summer

Before that, it was many years prior that we visited the tourist hotspots there

Perhaps one of the drawbacks of living in San Diego is that you have to drive up to LAX to catch flights to India

Shog9

Ah, but it all ended well: on my way home in '15 I got to enjoy a solid bloody in... I think it was Del Mar

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 That's so close to where I live

Except it's near the beachfront, so much more expensive there. I live just 20 minutes east from there.

Shog9

they served it with prime rib

them californians live it up, i tell ya

yelp.com/biz/bullys-del-mar-del-mar

that was the place

Yelp sez it's closed forever

so y'all will never get to enjoy the sublime bloody mary that I will always remember fondly

but take my word for it, your life is poorer for that fact

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 I think if I were to change my mind and have a drink, I'd probably just go to the downtown place.

Shog9

there's a bloody mary, and then there's a bloody mary worth drinking

accept only the latter

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

4:38 AM

It doesn't matter, I probably won't drink.

Shog9

Then I recommend a half and half V8 and pure Brazilian orange juice

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 @Catija FYI (just something very general, has nothing to do with any particular matter): I've been angrily shouted at a lot when I was a kid, for various things, including for example violating certain social norms. My parents used to have a bit of an anger problem. Over the years, I've grown to despise it. This is why I tend to react negatively if someone shouts at me; it's not what one's saying that I'm against, it's their tone that I don't like.

This is part of why I began advocating for inclusivity, because I (as well as April) found that people weren't using good tone when communicating things to new users, and I hate that.

In fact, this correlates well with my previous statements that one can be nice but still have a nicely curated site.

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog on the other hand, if you're constantly getting yelled at by multiple people or people feel uncomfortable, you absolutely cannot expect everyone around you to constantly adjust.

Somewhat

4:54 AM

People have their own tolerancy level...

Journeyman Geek

We've had more than one person complain about pinging, talking about stuff they feel is too personal (aka boundary issues...) ....

I have yelled at two sets of people in the past year. One's you. The other's my cable company.

John Dvorak

g'morning

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek My opinion is that people should be clear on what makes them uncomfortable before it gets to an uncomfortable level, so that the uncomfortable level is never reached.

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog My opinion is for a polite society we need to be mindful of each other without having to spell out every single thing.

In short, only you can stop yourself from being annoying.

or worse.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek It's difficult to be mindful online, as I can't make use of body language or other nonverbal cues. (This is even stated in the Code of Conduct.)

Journeyman Geek

4:57 AM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog we have the same exact lack of context you do.

Lots of people manage. Make the effort.

Somewhat

But people are not robots/computers which are programmed ~~to feel uncomfortable when something crosses their line~~

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek What context?

I was one of those users who flagged Catija's message and thus got suspended. Robert Columbia did too.

Journeyman Geek

Everything people say. Common sense. Knowing that people don't always want to talk about their personal life and they can talk about it if they want to.

Somewhat

Someone can be toleralable for a whole day, but don't expect the same for the next day (aka. "bad day")

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog that was plain stupid.

@Somewhat everyone has bad days.

1) there's no point in flagging a mod

2) You could have the same courtacy you expect from others. Listen to why she dosen't want you editing her posts, and don't do i in future.

If you have an issue with being yelled at "Hey, I meant well. I don't appreciate the tone there. Could you kindly let me know where I messed up?" works so well.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

5:00 AM

@JourneymanGeek She never explained to me why she reverted the heading edit. On the other hand, she did explain to me why she reverted the paragraph edit, so I didn't redo that.

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Well, why are you trying to edit official announcements?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek Here's the revision history in question.

Journeyman Geek

That's not what I asked.

I asked "why are you trying to edit an official announcement"

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek My answer is clear if you see the edits.

Journeyman Geek

Nope.

You basically thought you were smarter than @Catija and added more information that she might have intentionally chosen to leave out cause it was distracting.

That's besides the point.

I asked "Why are you trying to edit official announcements?"

For the third time I may add

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

5:04 AM

@JourneymanGeek That "additional information" I didn't subsequently reinstate. I also clearly explained the reason for reinstating the heading change. So the fourth revision's edit summary answers your question.

Journeyman Geek

I was asking in general. So no.

I asked a specific question, and see

That's why people yell at you.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek Ah, misunderstood.

Journeyman Geek

I was very close to saying that in all caps.

John Dvorak

Is it not allowed to edit mods' posts on meta?

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak Its fine, but the "respect the OP's intent" rule is important

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

5:06 AM

cv-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/314984/…

Journeyman Geek

Also, I am literally trying to make a broader point here

that people are getting mad at @SonictheInclusiveHedgehog because of his behaviour.

And that's one issue of a few.

John Dvorak

What kind of behavior justifies a suspension for a flag?

Somewhat

@JourneymanGeek off-topic, but have you read one of the recent meta post on SU about closing as POB?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

To answer your question: I have ideas on how to make these announcements more readable and better informative.

Journeyman Geek

@Somewhat link please?

I'm wondering if if this is one of Evan's

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

5:08 AM

@JourneymanGeek To what?

2

Q: How could I have handled this better in chat (flag apparently led to suspension)?

I was recently suspended in chat here on Meta.SE. I would like to know how I could have handled this situation better and avoided a suspension. Link to transcript: https://chat.meta.stackexchange.com/rooms/89/conversation/suspended-due-to-a-flag I was in the Tavern on the Meta chatroom here on...

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog my bad

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog so... post to meta and suggest the broad idea.

Somewhat

@JourneymanGeek no, not Evan, this one

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog so, on root access we have something I call the "Vegas Rule"

Somewhat

I have a mixed feeling about the long comment thread... (disclosure: I participated in the thread)

Journeyman Geek

@Somewhat sigh I hate people going "what about all these other posts"

@Somewhat I will take a look ;)

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

5:10 AM

@JourneymanGeek "Thanks for pointing out these posts; they have been closed accordingly."

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog "what happens in vegas stays in vegas" - if you have an issue with someone's tone, you let them know, and work it out before flagging

We reserve flagging for things like someone randomly betting abusive or posting shock pics.

MOST of the time if its a simple conflict of personalities, we can deal with it like adults.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek I (wrongly) thought at the time that it would be better to raise the issue in private, by flagging, rather than accuse them in public.

Journeyman Geek

Now I'm not saying don't flag. Of course, flagging a mod is pretty pointless. But I'm saying "why not actually try to take the other user's point of view in mind?"

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek I didn't make any edits to any of her posts after she posted that message.

Journeyman Geek

afk lunch

@Somewhat I wil take a look

Somewhat

6:26 AM

So... my Google Feeds is showing a card from Puzzling.SE -- "A Programmer's Riddle", based on my previous interest related to "Programming"... except, it shows the answer instead, not the question ._.

Maybe Google wanted me to play Jeopardy!...

Robert Columbia

10:36 AM

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Yes. No, not planning to move.

Robert Columbia

10:46 AM

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard but still very interested in the culture and learning.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/43795026#43795026

Dukeling

1:41 PM

Had to use something other than Google Translate to translate something today. I still find it weird that you can translate in real time using your camera, and you can translate text documents, but it refuses to accept an image or image PDF for translation.

Last time I used my phone's camera to translate text on my computer screen...

John Dvorak

Time to introduce a virtual webcam onto your PC

obsproject.com

Somewhat

2:56 PM

Morning...

Sometimes Meta Politics.SE is like a drama stage...

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Somewhat If it's not always, I'd suspect it's valid at all :3

Somewhat

Just realized today's September, hopefully not an eternal one...

πάντα ῥεῖ

3:16 PM

@Somewhat rare occasion

Somewhat

4:12 PM

(a late update, but) Latest SENT (SE New Theme): Academia, Gaming, Christianity, CodeReview, EE, ELU, Music,

Judaism, and Physics are ready for testing

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9

12

A: How could I have handled this better in chat (flag apparently led to suspension)?

How could I have handled this better? I'm not really asking about whether the flag I raised was the best, but about my behavior in general. You could have asked, "why the all-caps?" or "please don't shout" etc. I wouldn't have flagged (spam/offensive) but it is somewhat subjective as to what...

I think while this answer doesn't really apply to the other flagger (you commented that he has a history of frivolous flags), it does apply to me, as my flag history isn't that frivolous (which you can verify in the database).

Anne Daunted

4:49 PM

That edit war was more disrespectful than the chat message.

Somewhat

IF I SHOUT RANDOMLY LIKE THIS, WILL IT GET FLAGGED?

(darn, I missed the opportunity to use bold and italic...)

Journeyman Geek

5:09 PM

smacks @Somewhat on the nose with a rolled up newspaper

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog if it dosen't you can still learn from it.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

cv-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/315003/…

Journeyman Geek

In this case though, have you considered exactly how many people have expressed unhappiness with many of your actions so far?

@Somewhat If I really hated you I'd point out which sites had bad kerning

which would haunt you ~~for life~~ until they got fixed

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Jun 29 at 7:40, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Quick tip: a good way to stop me from doing something is to not only tell me reasons to not do it, but also invalidate the reasons why I do do it. In most disputes, at no point has anyone asked me for reasons why I did what I did. (If I supply those reasons without anyone asking, I'm blasted for "justifying".) If you only add more cons to my pros/cons lists for actions, you may find that I may still decide the pros outweigh the cons.

Somewhat

@JourneymanGeek keming? what's that? ;p

user194636

I heard that all kerning issues are fixed in the new responsive design anyway

user194636

5:17 PM

Alignment issues in general

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog that's monumentally annoying especially if each and every person needs to.

Somewhat

@Somewhat oh, it's a school in SG...

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

For instance, in the case of the flag, I made a statement that I chose to flag because I thought it was against the Code of Conduct. At no point did anyone say, "this is in fact not against the CoC because you misinterpreted [x]".

Instead, I got "this was too difficult to handle on a Friday evening" and "this was not against the CoC" (with no reason given).

user194636

to be fair:

user194636

Yeah, I probably should've left it @Peter. I've been unhappy with the general tone in that room lately, and... I let that influence my actions tonight more than I needed to. — Shog9 ♦ 7 hours ago

Catija

5:21 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog If you think my heading is ambiguous, let me know... I personally disagree... but I think your alternate had exactly the same (if not worse) ambiguity. "Remaining" has exactly the implication that the sites won't be changed. It'd be really easy for someone to interpret your version as "sites that are remaining the way they are".

user194636

It's kinda refreshing to discover Shog is, in fact, human.

Journeyman Geek

allegedly ;p

user194636

@Catija fwiw I mentally replaced that heading with "Not started yet" when I read it

Catija

That's what it means. :)

user194636

Yes but I can also see the opportunity for misreading/misunderstanding

user194636

5:24 PM

Perhaps "Not yet in progress" would be more explicit

user194636

idk how important that is at all

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Catija I thought it was "remaining sites left to be changed". The existing heading "Not in progress" implies that the sites are "not" going to be changed at first glance.

user194636

but a small improvement is still an improvement

Catija

But I rolled back the entire edit and @SonictheInclusiveHedgehog only asked for an explanation of half of it.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Catija As I commented on Shog's answer, I mistakenly thought it was just collateral damage.

Catija

5:25 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog that doesn't make sense, though. All of the designs must change at least to incorporate the left nav.

Journeyman Geek

"left mac" ?

NotThatGuy

Everything feels like deja vu today...
Like I had a dream about something like all of this at some point.

user194636

Someone said that earlier

Catija

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog you were complaining that I didn't explain why I changed both... but you didn't ask, either.

user194636

@JourneymanGeek mac = nav with an off-by-one error

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

5:26 PM

Journeyman Geek used to roll back my edits in whole, including spelling edits like "its", "arn't", "dosen't", so I thought it was unintentional.

Journeyman Geek

Because you didn't respect the intent of the author

totally the same issue as here.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Catija Yeah, I was about to ask you for an explanation there, but you "SHOUTED" at me, so I was afraid to talk. I've learned in real life not to engage with people who shout at me.

For me, "SHOUTING" online carries the same sentiment as shouting in real life.

Anne Daunted

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Then show some respect and ask.

Somewhat

That escalated too quick

I've learned in real life to back off when it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation, but a one-time shouting is not.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek Of the last few edits I've made to your posts after you first told me about respecting your intent, how many have you thought haven't respected it?

Catija

5:29 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You have a habit of forcing your edits on people and I'm annoyed by it. You did the same thing with the comment only lock question and some of my previous posts that I've just ignored despite not agreeing with the edits because of not wanting to get into an argument with you because I don't have the time.

user194636

@Catija Would you have rejected the first edit if it had come from someone you don't have a history of edit tension with?

user194636

(genuine question)

Catija

@PaulWhite Yep.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Catija Maybe if you at least supply a basic edit summary when rolling back, such arguments won't happen.

user194636

Oh. I thought it was a good edit. Still, OP's prerogative I guess.

Journeyman Geek

5:31 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I typically am fine with many edits but you're basically trying to special case each person and situation over general casing "this isn't going well with many people, I should adapt"

Catija

The explanation in the comments is exactly why I didn't include it. I spent three hours writing that post.

Journeyman Geek

@Catija If you need me to butt out, let me know

Anne Daunted

I think it wasn't a good edit.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

In hindsight, I should have commented with my edit summary there, instead of making the edit and putting the reason in the edit summary.

user194636

I will say that when I read it for the first time, I wondered where the link to join the beta test was.

Journeyman Geek

5:32 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Fundamental thing you need to do is to realise people sometimes write things a specific way for a reason.

user194636

In some ways it is a shame >2k one can't opt to make an edit suggested

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@PaulWhite Log out

user194636

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Oh that's true. I never thought of that 🙂

user194636

For a brief moment, I read that as "delete your account" 😲

user194636

It's kinda funny to see meta having a problem with too many edits. I wish the users on my home site were as willing to edit (instead of commenting).

Anne Daunted

5:36 PM

In a situation like this, when a user starts an edit war, what actions can a mod take to stop them? (apart from locking the post and banning them) Is there something more fine-grained?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

18

Q: Suggested edit by Anonymous

From time to time, I see edits like this one made by anonymous users here on Meta Stack Exchange. I know that these edits are actually made by logged-out users or even users without an account. But sometimes, the edits are complicated enough to show that the user knows the SE philosophy very well...

Catija

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog. I'm not a new, low-rep user that just doesn't understand edits, am I? I don't roll back every edit on my posts... you know me... like... in person, we've met... give me a little credit?

user194636

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Yes I know about the feature, it just didn't occur to me in the moment.

user194636

@AnneDaunted Not really. Private chat or a mod message without suspension.

Catija

@AnneDaunted that's an either-or most of the time. And a mod message would usually come before an outright suspension. But, not really any other options, no.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

5:37 PM

@Catija I'm sorry if I implied that in any of my prior messages.

Catija

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog you implied it by re-editing my post after I rolled it back.

Anne Daunted

That's why he should apologize

user194636

The hedgehog has explained why they re-edited though.

Anne Daunted

Thanks Paul and Catija!

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Catija I didn't rollback your rollback. You explained why you didn't want that paragraph, so I didn't reinstate it. In hindsight...

7 mins ago, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

In hindsight, I should have commented with my edit summary there, instead of making the edit and putting the reason in the edit summary.

Catija

5:40 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Or you could have asked about both, rather than assuming I was lazily rolling back everything.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Catija As I said in a comment there, I should have apologized to you instead of assuming collateral damage.

(I quoted the comment but it contained some irrelevant content)

@Catija I just want to say, thanks for putting up with my antics ever since the beginning. I know life has been hard on you, having to take care of a (now) two-year-old, as well as another little one in the works. I'd like to apologize for it all.

2

user194636

That's nice.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

You also took time out of your weekend to meet me that other day.

Your "SHOUTING" up there was prompted by this last straw. Due to my parents' past anger problems (they used to get mad for lots of different incidents), I've been conditioned to believe that when someone gets mad, it's for a single incident. I thought it was the same here, and didn't bother to check my past behavior.

(cc @JourneymanGeek)

This thus prompted my "special casing" behavior.

Catija

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog :) I think you do a lot of good... net positive. I'd love to see you continue to do that and learn and grow more over time. I'm happy to help with that and hopefully you can give me the benefit of the doubt... I don't always have time to explain everything, though, but I try. It's always been my goal as a mod and that's not changing now.

Shog9

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog The flags were completely bogus; I have no doubt about that at all.

That said, I overreacted, and I owe both you and @RobertColumbia an apology for that.

5

I've been in this room since its inception, and... Lately, it just hasn't been fun for me anymore.

I'm tired of getting pinged repeatedly about things.

I'm tired of... Just the tension.

2

A tense tavern isn't a good tavern.

So I'm going to take a break for a while. 8 years is long enough.

John Dvorak

5:55 PM

It would be nice to include the apology in your answer.

Shog9

I'll see y'all when I see ya.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 I also understand that your "9 rules" were just a quick response to my...past frivolous pings.

Shog9

No one - including you - took those seriously or paid any attention to them anyway.

Somewhat

Certainly we have lost many people in the Tavern. And cute animal pictures.

Shog9

My being here is a waste of my time and yours.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

5:55 PM

[leaves room]

John Dvorak

come on...

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

I think I'm going to take a break as well.

John Dvorak

Eph 4:26 Be angry and do not sin. Don’t let the sun go down on your anger

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

I'll still be here so that I'm pingable in case someone needs me, but I'm no longer actively participating in this room.

user194636

@JourneymanGeek Would you be so kind as to trash my deleted message above? It breaks Shog's flow.

Journeyman Geek

6:01 PM

→ 1 message moved to Sandbox/Trash Bin/Something

erm... good enough I guess

Somewhat

With all of these recent events, the tension is too bad that it affects not only Tavern, but also whole SE... it's sad, but I can only keep moving on...

user194636

@JourneymanGeek thank you

Journeyman Geek

@Somewhat heh, or work at defusing drama.

John Dvorak

Once I tried defusing a bomb, and I ended up diffusing it instead. Hurt like hell.

Journeyman Geek

musta been a blast

John Dvorak

6:07 PM

:D

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Catija Please check your email

(Sent Shog an email apologizing for everything, and copied you.)

Journeyman Geek

Also, I'd like to point out a lot of SE has been tense lately...

so.. if you're feeling people are too high strung, do your part, and both be patient and mindful.

Also

2

John Dvorak

I suspect quite a bit of the tension is because of nCOC

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak not all of it

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JohnDvorak But the fact is, I'm the last straw.

Journeyman Geek

6:19 PM

I've heard a lot of these arguements even without the nCOC on specific sites

Somewhat

@JohnDvorak nah, many are about the unified site design, like -115 on Math.SE

Journeyman Geek

In any case, I'm sure we all can be civil and understanding, even if we're old farts who have spent the better part of a decade on the network. Or to them

John Dvorak

... -115. Wow.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek The content of my email also mostly applies to you, but you haven't disclosed your email online (which I understand), so I can't send you a copy.

Journeyman Geek

lol

I did once.

Got 2 spam emails and someone asking me for advice on a legal case in africa

anyway, I'm sure @Catija and @Shog9 will know how to reach me if there's anything they felt they needed to share.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

6:22 PM

I haven't disclosed my email either.

user194636

6:34 PM

Huh, but math.se is normally such a quiet little community

Journeyman Geek

Site designs matter ;)

Or more specifically site identities are important to communities

John Dvorak

Which is why the new unified design removes all site identity from the site

except for link colors, which are all over the place, which makes it necessary to reanimate link underlines :P

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek On the flip side, the GDPR banner makes it obvious when I've not joined a site.

(Sorry, forgot about my break)

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak I want to argue with that ... but I can't say I entirely disagree

Probably dosen't help that for most part, the sites I use a standard beta or "honda" designs

(toyota? generic boring car brand !)

user194636

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog In fairness, you did not state how long the break would be 😃

John Dvorak

6:47 PM

Honda is the one with a famous Rube Goldberg ad

Journeyman Geek

The length of the break matters less than the results ;)

Somewhat

@JohnDvorak As of current, I've heard 2 legitimate complaints about underline: underscore_on_programming and... Hebrew language?

John Dvorak

I assume you don't count "it looks ugly and 90s" as legitimate?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@PaulWhite Neither did Shog.

But my break wasn't going to be that short.

Somewhat

embrace Geocities

user194636

6:50 PM

true, he could be back any moment

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek That little time isn't long enough for me to reflect on everything I've done here...

user194636

@Somewhat is merely finding it ugly and noisy not legitimate?

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog erm. Notice you're telling us how the break you took wasn't long enough, instead of going back on break.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

55 mins ago, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

I'll still be here so that I'm pingable in case someone needs me, but I'm no longer actively participating in this room.

Somewhat

@PaulWhite it's considered as subjective for me, but not really function breaking so... no :/

user194636

6:53 PM

@Somewhat oh 😢

Journeyman Geek

I think that counts as active participation... so... erm....

user194636

and now I notice John Dvorak said exactly the same thing but better ten messages up

Somewhat

Anyway, a mod left Workplace.SE...

Dukeling

8:02 PM

Again resisting the urge to ask "what have you tried". Also, the asker has almost 50k reputation...

Somewhat

I just realized that The Stack Imgur service is no longer resizing images correctly!!

That's why I feel something's weird when appending some of the images with m but still looks like l or original width...

Journeyman Geek

hasn't a while and its annoying

Somewhat

(all my mobile data quota...)

Magisch

8:29 PM

@Somewhat They had an election 4 months ago

So they might call up ChrisE to fill the spot

Journeyman Geek

@Somewhat hah. My telco has unlimited data on weekends, which is nice

John Dvorak

@Dukeling Link? I'll bring pop-corn

Journeyman Geek

@Somewhat I'm not sure it actually ensmallens filesizes

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

cv-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/315006/…

Dukeling

9:23 PM

@JohnDvorak Requirement dumps are not that uncommon for algorithm questions. Not that I really know what the ideal version of that question looks like. It's entirely possible that the best version of that question is the one where no effort is shown, who knows.

John Dvorak

Well... it is more difficult than your typical school homework.

Dukeling

Depends which school you go to...

My problem isn't so much with homework, more with someone who takes their problem to Stack Overflow seemingly before taking it to their brain.

But algorithm questions generally seem to have this binary state of either no effort and interesting or a bunch of effort and just objectively terrible.

John Dvorak

Have you considered the effort that went into formulating the problem?

effort != here's some Java code that correlates with the task given

(speaking generically)

Dukeling

Formulating the problem just seems like a necessary condition of asking the question. I can't really give them any points for that, even if some people do a much worse job of it.

John Dvorak

Really? How about PPCG?

Dukeling

9:39 PM

Sure, but those are generally assumed to be things people specifically come up for the sake of asking there. I tend to assume questions on Stack Overflow come more from real-world problems, homework, contests, etc.
I know it *should* be fine that it's just an interesting problem, but I can't stop seeing the fact that there's no attempt to solve the problem.

John Dvorak

Seeing it is fine. But does it make the question less useful?

It does help cull the homework questions, yes, but are homework questions with a hint of a code snippet really any better than those without?

Dukeling

It's more the principle. I just don't really want to spend my free time helping someone who (as far as I can see) didn't even try to help themselves. Of course it's still an interesting problem and I wouldn't mind solving it on HackerRank or somewhere. Maybe I've just been here too long, and the "what have you tried" mentality is now such a fundamental part of my thinking that ... what have you tried?

Or might be an interesting problem - I haven't actually spent enough time reading it to have figured out what's going on there (probably just some element swapping, which is pretty uninteresting).

John Dvorak

Well, do read it and then report back :P

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