Tavern on the Meta - 2018-07-13 (page 1 of 5)

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noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ

12:38 AM

Has there been any effort on reforming the text on stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/vote-down?

1:07 AM

:6731884 I've heard a few grumblings like this, that "Chat will never, ever have any development done to it, ever." Is there any substance to this claim, or a source? I could understand *why that would be the case, but haven't seen anything official; I'm just wondering if I shouldn't bother with MSE posts re:issues/requests/etc?*

Probably depends on what the request it is... there's no harm in posting them, even if they get ignored. May still earn you some rep.

@noɥʇʎԀʎzɐɹƆ Anything in particular you think needs fixing?

@Catija Meta rep. :)

My favorite kind...

very minor this time

0

Q: Chat room "write access" option does not work

It was nice to discover the option for a room owner to add any user to a room, even if they're rep is too low. ...so I notified the user in question, and as instructed on the next screen, I had them got to chat.stackoverflow.com so that I'd be able to add them. ...but when they did their p...

feature-request bug reputation design chat

I have more MSE rep than anything else.

1:11 AM

remove six words, so the page isn't lying and getting people's hopes up. I'm not much of a wed dev but it seems pretty darn simple to do... and has been requested repeatedly over 6+ years

That content is accurate... if a moderator gives them access, not a RO.

@Catija When I click on the Room page, the page tells me (the room owner) to have the user visit chat.so.com and then to add them, at which point I do and am told about the minimum rep. At no point is a mod mentioned.

Room access only really matters in gallery rooms or private rooms.

ROs can't own private rooms.

(only mods can).

But access to chat at all is limited to users over 20 rep... by design. That's part of the privileges.

@Catija The reason , and others, have attempted it, was to help out a brand new user while keep chatty "conversations" (ie., troubleshooting) out of the comments section

And that's admirable. But the system doesn't let under 20 rep users chat without specific mod permission.

If you want that to change, ask for it... but if you're asking them to change the text, you're asking for the wrong change since mods can do what it says.

1:19 AM

At the end of the day the rules are the rules, but that one is unclear enough that I and, at the least, several others, have been confused by it. It just a minor rewording to save future concern. Anyhow my concern was posted and now its up to the universe to deal with... :)

My question here was more about future concerns... i'm fine with the answer being "no more dev on Chat", and it would make sense, and I've heard the rumour more than once... but never from anyone authoritative (i think)

I think that it's wrong to assume that there's no dev on chat... because chat mod tools badly need renovation, and I'd hate to have that ignored.

... and I know that chat moderation is a major concern right now in general.

Oh, you have requests too huh? Darn, I was just going to ask you to just tell me "no more dev" and that would be enough for me to move on. It's the not-knowing that bugs me :-)

Is there public log of some sort, of past site revisions (chat in particular)? Or denied requests, etc? Just to get an idea of how much attention it's getting?

There's the site features thread but I don't know if chat changes are logged there.

681

Q: Recent feature changes to Stack Exchange

This is an unofficial list/changelog of new features and various changes to Stack Overflow and the Stack Exchange network. It is maintained by the community, while a Stack Exchange employee changes the accepted answer to ensure that the latest changes remain on top (given default user settings)....

For declined stuff, you can look at the questions with status-declined tags... but most questions just have no response.

I think a lot of it is that the people who do have access to the code for chat are really busy doing higher-priority stuff...

@Catija good to note the links, thank you. I totally understand that there's higher priority stuff on the list... after all, there are currently a whopping 30 chat users online... I've seen it as low as 5 (not that I watch very closely)

? 30? Are you looking at chat.so? Because there are three different servers and I'm pretty sure there are lots more than 30 on the chat.se server.

1:30 AM

@Catija indeed I am looking at SO.... I didn't even realize there were multiple servers, whoops

Anyway, it's a low-traffic time of day, end of business for most of the US, Europe & much of Asia are asleep.

66 more on chat.SE. I don't pay attention to the SE sites much (and am Canadian) but I do a ton of playing with SEDE, and on SO the busy times seem to be based on UK workdays (which surprises me).. oooh that inspired me - I should run some of my queries on the other sites to see how the stats vary by "topic". So much data I haven't even touched yet!

cute pic btw @Catija I just showed my boy, who's sitting next to me... "aww see, you used to be that cute... a loong time ago before your little moustache showed up" ...lol

Teenager?

Thanks :D He's almost two. All sunshine.

1:45 AM

@Catija Ugh yeah, he was such a dream-child since birth, perfect little baby slept through night right away, ate whatever I fed him, always happy. I would joke that I'd have to pay for it once he's a teen. I might have jinxed myself, lol

@Catija Actually he's not terrible compared to some teens I see, it's just an adjustment period, which can be tricky as a single-coder-dad of kid obsessed with tech more than most... I'm doing more parenting via SMS and Email than I am in person... I miss the cuddly toddler age soo much. :)

@ashleedawg HAHA, that's one of the things when you only have one... you don't know how different they can be...

2:33 AM

Undo's Musing of the Day:

Standard assumptions - (1) SO is unwelcoming, (2) we want to change that

We don't need to change the whole community to do that. We don't even need to change a majority of the community.

All we need is a team of folks that have the following:

1) A clear, objective, verifiable goal

2) Staff backing

3) People who know how to write tooling

We can't convince people to change their minds about any of this by throwing words at them. You might make some of them leave, but that's the worst way to win

A single group of the right people, with the right tools, enforcing the current (or revised, whatever) policies could make a pretty big difference.

A job for SOBotics?

:P

There are people here who are able to pull any data you want, in realtime. SmokeDetector is designed for this, Charcoal has developers that know APIs and websockets inside out. Get the right information in front of the right people, flag the right stuff quickly, and you should be able to tackle the 80% of that 7%

And SOBotics, yeah. Lots of groups with tooling knowhow

We kind of already have a tool, similar to what SE recently experimented with: higgs.sobotics.org/Hydrant

So, there is a downside to getting users to flag stuff en-masse...

Doesn't need to be en-masse. There are ways to design systems away from that.

Charcoal designs for it because it makes sense; wouldn't be hard to write tooling to handle new comments on new users' posts in realtime without piling

2:41 AM

I'm thinking more about whether you want the mods to ever see the flags or not.

There are no autoflags for NLN comment flags.

Design choice. Charcoal technically has systems that could nuke comments from orbit; those could be adapted if we wanted to for some reason. We don't, but the entire spectrum is possible.

There are a lot of user-deleted comments on IPS because of the chat bot we have.

It just means that we may miss high-volume commenters who need to be poked.

Oh, convenient coincidence with comments instead of spam is that someone writing comments will almost always have a post to cast a flag on.

Meaning a completely unrelated post?

Yeah. Doesn't really matter as long as it ends up in the queue.

2:45 AM

I guess the only people who wouldn't have a post would be people like me with all of their rep from edits/association bonus, or whose only post was deleted after 60 days.

Anyway, just saying that between SOBotics, Charcoal, and probably other groups, we can write darn near any tooling. We already have all the code laying around; CE5001 was prototyped in less than two days by ripping stuff out of metasmoke.

CE5001?

@Rob We've got a copy of SE's comment classifier thing from the blog post. Probably waiting to turn it loose until we find out whether/how SE's public expansion will work.

Not arguing with that, mostly trying to figure out how to work with the system in a way that won't make it possible for rude commenters to fly even more under the radar.

@Catija Oh, easy. Track everything, cast 'other' flags automatically where there are patterns.

Way easier problem to solve than Charcoal has (arguably...) with spam

2:49 AM

Yeah, but the mods of those sites have to get the info somehow...

> cast 'other' flags automatically where there are patterns.

Oh, really? Petter was pretty interested in getting his hands on that dump. Is that something he'd be able to get his hands on from you guys, or is it private for now?

@Rob We only have the tooling; no usable data.

Also, on SO it's unlikely that users won't have the ability to comment without a post... but on IPS (for example), lots of the comments we delete come from 101 rep users drawn by HNQs.

Oh, gotcha. Sorry, I misread that

2:49 AM

tl;dr if SE is going to run theirs publicly, we don't want to preempt them and burn everybody out before they get a chance to

@Catija Can throw flags on any semi-related post. Not really a big problem.

... the people I'm talking about don't have posts at all, though...

They cast a comment on a post

Flag that post

It's semantically not awesome, but it's what existing 'too many rude/NC comments' flags do

I'm somewhat holding out hope for a NLN version of the Rude flag.

It'd have to be shut off on SO. Way too noisy

Not for three in a week, but something similar.

2:56 AM

NLN gets used for obsolete comments on SO, probably much different than IPS

They're used for both.

I know y'all have lots of comments.

sixty seven million, ish

Still probably a sweet spot that can be set by site to some degree... sort of like the red dot triggers.

Well, a lot of the NLN flags are people running bots/scripts finding comments with 'thanks' and flagging the whole lot of them

Perhaps. I'm skeptical; we delete an awful lot of innocuous NLN comments.

^ mostly because of that

There are 19 NLN comment flags on SO right now, there's maybe one that I would want a flag on for repeated offenses.

and it's awfully close to being fine

3:01 AM

I guess that's where the volume part of it comes in... X in Y time... lots of the "thanks" people aren't likely to have that many of the comments, I would think.

The new 'thanks' people aren't so much the problem as the prolific "you have a typo here" folks who get NLN flags for obsolete comments

Are they typos they could have just edited themselves?

Technically yes, but often it goes beyond 'typos' to slightly more complex things that shouldn't just be edited.

And even typos are tough to be sure about in some langs

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm trying to think of a solution that doesn't involve re-introducing a fourth flag reason.

So, I guess some data would help... how many people have X, Y, Z comments flagged over the course of A, B, C times...

I'm becoming convinced that we need some kind of solid NLP platform.

Something that can 'understand' stuff at some level. SO scales are hard.

3:06 AM

Don't Charcoal people have a contact in that area?

... not really

It's a long story.

The thing Mag did?

The TED thing?

Yeah.

I can't remember the speaker's name.

We had minimal input; the resulting product was good for a demo and not much else. Accuracy far below what we require for anything useful.

3:08 AM

I guess it's a matter of finding an expert who thinks it's an interesting project.

Journeyman Geek

3:36 AM

hi

HI! :D

Journeyman Geek

found/playing around with something amusing and a little neat

someone finally managed to throw together a text mode browser that mostly works on SE :p

user image

(now, that's running on my 'spare' "I really ought to cancel it" server - in another country ;p)

also does chat. kinda

user image

3:56 AM

Hah, that's kinda neat

Journeyman Geek

its called browsh. Some golang thing that talks to a headless instance of FF

github.com/browsh-org/browsh and brow.sh/docs/introduction

its a bit picky over ssh clients (putty dosen't work) but its fun

2 hours later…

5:38 AM

@Tinkeringbell :( cats aren't disgusting furballs :(

1 hour later…

6:48 AM

→ 17 messages moved to Chimney

7:00 AM

@Undo I would suggest the vast majority of site users or even meta users don't actually know the mods outside of some appearances on meta.

All I can tell we're controlled by some dogs ...

I'm strangely okay with that

Yes, plant species have little to worry about

especially space-time distorting flowers such as yourself

You can just blur from any attacks

Journeyman Geek

7:28 AM

@rene woof?

I'd point out though, we have various disembodied head overlords ;p

8:06 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, phone number detected in body: what are quickbooks MAC support services? by John Bruse on mathoverflow.net

8:48 AM

@JourneymanGeek Who besides shog?

or are you counting all 9 shogs?

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch they're all heads man. ALL HEADS.

Tim's a head with a mug, balpha's a head. Hell Jnat probably is a head in disguise.

ALL HEADS!

I'm a cactus

Journeyman Geek

You're not an overlord tho ;p

Yea

but I still want it to be known that I'm a cactus

Journeyman Geek

(apologies to all non head-avaed CMs. ;p)

8:55 AM

I wonder how stack's search for a cm went

Journeyman Geek

eh, from what I heard, they got a ton of great applications

So, you'll find out soon enough?

Still rooting for cat :P

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, blacklisted website in answer, blacklisted user: Converting mp3 to ogg, suggestions? by Debjani Mohapatra on superuser.com

Journeyman Geek

9:11 AM

cv-plzhttps://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/312575/my-android-applicati‌on-working-properly-till-nougat-in-real-devices-and-properly and meta.stackexchange.com/questions/312576/…

9:28 AM

@Magisch 10 shogs - they are indexed from 0.

Journeyman Geek

or are they.

And... does this one go up to 11?

Does that mean we can programmatically generate shogs?

Journeyman Geek

We don't talk about the time someone tried that.

9:59 AM

@JourneymanGeek Plot Twist: SE staff is 100% Kraangs

Journeyman Geek

oh man, that seriously dates me

@Magisch Once they're on the kitchen counter or any other surface where they don't belong, they are ;)

10:17 AM

@Tinkeringbell that's the definition of Cat. An animal that domesticated humans to be served and praised like a god

It is a know fact that domestic cats meowing evolved to mimic children cries.

Which is done on purpose to trigger the "mother reaction" in the humans who hear it.

hahaha... I'm glad I'm not naturally inclined to be bothered by a meow ;)

Also, remind you that the cat won't ever consider him to be a pet. In is view he is at your level (or probably above that). If YOU use the tap, then he has no reason to think he shouldn't do that too.

That is the reason some cats chose to sit at the table at dinner (choosing the first empty chair they can find) and will actively try to get food from a plate you put in front of them....

Using his claw to get it and bring it to his mouth

Basically trying to mimic a fork.

10:36 AM

@Tinkeringbell Cats run the place in every cat household

Somewhat Memorable Name

~~Morning~~ Evening.

I gave up following last night's convo...

10:52 AM

In the meantime: the reviews for Octopath have started coming in. And as expected, none of the inevitably-rushed-review-gameplay noticed that the "eight unrelated plot" are probably actually connected to a big hidden foe last story that probably is the final game unlockable

@Magisch the cats from next door have been attempting a hostile takeover of our place for years. Predictably, every dog we've had has been aiding and abetting them. Bailey is useless, much more likely to curl up with the invaders than chase them away:(

Doesn't surprise me

When I was still living with my mom, the cat had the run of the house

Literally it was work around the cat not displace it or tell it off

If the cat is sitting on the warm laundry, guess the laundry isn't done yet

@MartinJames an angry cat can be fairy dangerous even for some far bigger dogs.

Their "fighting style" also is somehow different.

Somewhat Memorable Name

Current ELL election status: 2 candidates, 6/40 and 0/40.

an angry cat will very quickly remind is origin.

And the cat very often will aim to things like the eyes

Somewhat Memorable Name

10:57 AM

> We are here to learn, and we should enforce a harsher, zero tolerance policy against the bullies who comment for the sake of putting down. -- one of the candidate's answer

oh well :)

Cats have somehow managed to enlist the apex predator of the entire planet in protecting and serving them

@SomewhatMemorableName Time to get some rep there to vote for whoever is not this guy

@Magisch yep, my comment from above ^_^. It is the cat that domesticated you, not the opposite.

@Derpy Indeed, which is why I prefer to tackle them myself, with the appropriate ranged weapons, eg. the hose.

@MartinJames until you meet the cat that reminds that they aren't all afraid of water as people think

@Derpy Luckily our enemies at the gates, (and fence, and hedge), are all hydrophobic, and we have plenty of water pressure.

11:06 AM

@Derpy They even got the egyptians to worship them

And all by beeing fluffy and by willfully partaking in the giant mice buffet that was a normal granary.

11:52 AM

:yawn:

:meow:

:bounce:

(btw, where is the cat?)

user image

There they are! Open fire, all weapons!

@MartinJames locked and loaded

12:04 PM

bjb568, Cincinnati, OH

3.8k 2 19 41

feature-request bug discussion design chat support review

^ this cat.

@MartinJames they look like cuties. Huggable definitely

@Catija morning

also @Tinkeringbell - Am I mistaken or OldPadawan answer on your IPS meta question is now deleted? Did something bad happen (ie: flame wars?)

> deleted by owner yesterday

@Derpy Honestly, if you're that curious about IPS you should probably drop into the chatroom over there ;)

I got some signals that people didn't want to keep discussing that meta post in here ;)

We have cookies

(It's a lie tink and aj ate them all)

12:13 PM

@Magisch Only the ones with chocolate... there weren't that many!

@Tinkeringbell Oh, well, I could.

Morning:)

Afternoon :)

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer: Can I use a nonstick or stainless steel pan to bake a cake in a microwave by Naveed Iqbal on cooking.SE

Any news with the job search @cat ? (That you're allowed to share at least)

12:24 PM

@Magisch Huggable? They are the evil spawn of Bast and Lucifer. They must be exorcised, beheaded, killed with fire or hosed off the fence:)

you need to be nice to other users
some users are cats
--> you need to be nice to cats

12:40 PM

@Derpy ...but they're demons! OK, their horns are glamoured to look like ears, but never doubt the malign darkness that dwells within:(

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of body: The revisit after tag doesn't seem to work fine by Divya Darshan Metallica on meta.SE (@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog)

@MartinJames the one that asked you to sign a contract to become a magical girl wasn't a cat, you know....

／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼

1:35 PM

@Derpy lol

TelKitty is back:)

Somewhat Memorable Name

@Derpy burn it with fire, please?

🔥🔥🔥🔥

@SomewhatMemorableName I guess you saw Puella Magi?

Somewhat Memorable Name

Didn't watch, only knew.

But well, "when someone said all magical girls anime are kids anime"...

1:52 PM

Magical Girl Raising Project

Magical Girl Raising Project (魔法少女育成計画, Mahō Shōjo Ikusei Keikaku) is a Japanese light novel series written by Asari Endō and illustrated by Maruino. Takarajimasha has published nine volumes since 2012 under their Kono Light Novel ga Sugoi! Bunko imprint. The series is licensed in English by Yen Press. A manga adaptation with art by Pochi Edoya was serialized in Kadokawa Shoten's Comp Ace magazine between September 2014 and October 2015. An anime television series adaptation by Lerche aired in Japan between October and December 2016. == Plot == A popular social game known as the Magical ...

Sorry, not ranked high enough in this season leaderboard. You die. Bye, have a nice day.

Somewhat Memorable Name

@Derpy I watched this ;)

though only the first 3 episodes. Haven't continued since then

Heard Magical Girl Site is far worse.

Somewhat Memorable Name

Uhh... I read that... but again, only the first volume because of free-reading trial... currently on my wishlist though...

2:37 PM

I had been commenting (rather unwelcoming I guess as the comments have been cleaned) here but at the end of the post it now still says rene's comment ... which is no longer there. I'm a bit hestitant to edit it out as it might be seen as an act to cover up history. What is the accepted policy?

@rene How bothered are you by your name being there, and do you really want to give this any more attention then it's already had? (I do believe there was something about not naming specific users in posts on SE?)

I'm honestly tempted to just make my first ever MSE edit just for that... Editing out specific names.

There's a whole lotta ways that can be phrased without saying 'Oh, Rene this and Glorfindel that'

@Tinkeringbell I'm not bothered at all. It is just a tad confusing for new visitors on that question.

In general you can assume I'm not bothered about much

I think it should be edited anyways... or is MSE rather generous on having names and responses to answers in questions?

For context it matters so I wouldn't edit that out but once it becomes only a one-sided context it is an issue I think

But again, I'm involved there so I don't want to touch it for that reason.

2:54 PM

Then I'd leave your name, but just mention that it's now referring to a deleted comment...?

Oh, that is a nice compromise, I can live with that

@rene Done :)

Thanks!

Your welcome :)

Journeyman Geek

ugh zat question

Somewhat Memorable Name

3:06 PM

QuantumComputing.SE... ha.

Oh, and that user's behaviour on other sites... well....

well.

It is answered, all is good now

@SomewhatMemorableName, should your most recent message here not be flagged for being not nice?

@JourneymanGeek: same to you?

Somewhat Memorable Name

@user1271772 you can flag it

@rene: thanks for being cool with me using your name. I wasn't very happy with the question being marked as a duplicate right at the beginning when it wasn't a duplicate, which may have lead to the 20 negative votes, but at least you un-closed it. Most negative votes remained, but over time it will be seen as an important question anyway.

@SomewhatMemorableName: I thought flagging is discouraged because it causes moderators to spend time giving it attention. You're right here so I could tell you directly without wasting other people's time.

@SomewhatMemorableName: what other sites did I have bad behaviour on?

3:22 PM

they didn't say bad behavior ...

Let's assume good faith

Somewhat Memorable Name

@user1271772 Did I mention bad behavior? Did I mention it was about you?

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer, blacklisted user: Format hard drive without starting windows by AdrianG001 on superuser.com

@SomewhatMemorableName: No you did not. Was that a rhetorical question? The answer is right there. However, can you be honest and say whether it was about me or someone else? And whether you meant good beahviour or bad? In any case, what "other site" were you talking about?

@rene: I assumed bad faith in this case. Just like you assumed bad faith when I asked about changing moderators, since it was asked 2 days after I had a request rejected by a moderator (even though that rejection wasn't the reason for asking the question).

You can see where that leads to. So just don't.

Somewhat Memorable Name

@user1271772 1) It's not about you. 2) It's a really questionable behaviour. 3) Physics

3:34 PM

@rene: You mean I can see what "assuming bad faith" leads to, based on what happened when you did it to me? Then you are right, but do you have to say "So just don't" in such an impolite way?

I don't have to but I decided to respond the way I did.

@SomewhatMemorableName: Ok I think I know who you are talking about now. But everyone was talking about my Meta question at that time, so I don't see what that user has to do with it.

I'd like 0.4608 apples, please.

I mean, this is what I don't like. Everyone is connecting that meta question to the physics user that I think you're talking about, just because rene saw that 2 days earlier I requested to give that user a shorter suspension and had the request rejected? I was not bitter at all about the moderator's decision not to un-suspend him, because I was quite sure they weren't going to entertain my request anyway. But if you see the first answer to my meta question, they seem to be making that connection

I don't know whom you mean, and I think I don't want to - and will anyways

3:40 PM

I don't see why @SomewhatMemorableName you mention a different user when everyone was talking about my Meta post, but in any case, I'm happy that you were not talking about me, and sorry for "assuming bad faith"

Somewhat Memorable Name

ok

and i like spouting random thoughts

@user1271772 That is possible, yes. Had you started with the link to the comment you added only later that question would have had a different outcome and different answers. It is not entirely my fault that I research a bit when a question pops-up that requests to change how we handle mod assignments across the whole network. That is not a simple good idea, let's do it. And that is what I didn't like and what I tried to express in the most neutral tone I could manage.

@rene: Which link? Anyway, I think it's good that you do research on the user before answering questions, but you could have also asked me in chat or in comments about whether you hypothesis was correct, but instead it was "marked closed" rather immedately, and a bunch of other people saw that and downvoted right away. Anyway, is it not an important question? Because until me no one asked on meta how long the pro tem moderators last, which for me was a legitimate question.

I mean I was generally curious about that and asked Robert Garisto about it more than a month ago but he didn't reply.

3:55 PM

@user1271772 I left my comment and then only hammered when others suggested that dupe when I saw the answer wasn't any different for what was in the dupe. I obviously have a different recollection of the chain of events. I kept an eye on the Q/A and once I saw signs that it was probably a different question about mod serving time I searched for a better dupe which I couldn't find so I re-open hammered to allow others to judge and/or answer.

@user1271772 yes, had you only linked to that comment from the start ... a simple oversight ... unforeseen consequences

It was my first ever question on meta

You're welcome.

Ooooooooooooh you mean "link to the screenshot" of the comment I wrote to Robert Garisto

yeah, or just link directly to the comment. All comments have a link

Lots of users aren't aware that the timestamp is a link to the question. :)

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