gaming communities

Okay! Thanks :D I probably need to cut back on SE time then ;)

I need a word for a rule that's very specific, and allows for no exceptions?

'ultimate'?

I thought we had some conversations based around that before on here... but perhaps not "zero-tolerance"

non-existant

@KevinB Haha :) Nice one, but I know enough English not to use that ;)

Oh, i didn't mean it as a language issue, just that no rule really has no exceptions, there's always exception, :p

TBH, maybe I'm just reading stuff wrong. Lemme check here first.

> If someone points out that your behavior is making others uncomfortable, stop doing it. Sometimes, people unconsciously say things that negatively affect others. Even if this wasn’t your intent, apologize and move on.

With regard to that. I sometimes see series of chat flags on conversations that are perfectly normal

Does anyone think that's too 'absolute' (Yay, found my word!)

yes

Okay, writing an answer.

because whos to say said user is wrong?

though... i'd much rather a user speak out like that, than just quietly raise flags.

@KevinB TBH, I've seen both sides of this. I've at one time been drawn into a discussion on periods and problems and someone said the details made them uncomfortable. That's okay, we can stop.

On the other hand, I've met someone not acting in good faith... and they'd have a field day with this

@KevinB That's true though...

in chat at least.

comments i see the entire opposite

chat flag is still a mess. unless there's an improvement to that, it will still be chaotic

i have a feature request i haven't taken the time to post yet

@Tinkeringbell That makes me uncomfortable

:P

not necessarily to deal with flags, but for kicking and halting conversations

For flags, I think it simply needs some categorization

for kicks, I'd like to see chat kick-mutes result in a number of the user's recent messages being deleted as well

@Magisch Exactly. So now we can no longer discuss my opinion on the matter, and you've just stopped a bout of conversation and a little community building. Probably not what they want to achieve?

I hate the idea of moving messages to a "trash can" because it removes them from the context of the conversation and makes it very hard to track what happened when and by who. By deleting the messages on kick, it gives us a way to remove a series fo problematic messages while leaving them in context and cause an action that can be tracked (the kick)

@KevinB That's up to the RO actually... or mod. I thought kicks were meant for that? To give a mod/RO time to clean up and other people to change topic?

yeah, but currently it doesn't clean anything up

it just removes the user

@Tinkeringbell people saying they're uncomfortable makes me uncomfortable

and noone else is even notified that it happend other than the other RO's

waiting for the universe to implode

Yeah but I also think it may be hard to automate the trashing/clean up/deleting is very hard to automate...

Right, i'm not suggesting automating that

i'm suggesting actually deleting the message in place

So, just the last message before they got kicked?

:)

so it's still right there, for RO's and mods to right click and read to see context

Trashing messages should be easy for a bot. The trick is knowing what should be trashed.

that, or all in the last minute, etc

similar to twitch chat kicks

@JohnDvorak Yep, which is why probably I like human oversight better than the idea of arbitrarily deleting a last message, or the last minute

it would immediately end the conversation and make it clear to everyone else that it has ended

@Tinkeringbell So, what's the cost of a bot deleting too much? Really, what is?

@JohnDvorak In a very active chatroom? Probably just like when removing comments, a disjointed conversation.

And people do read transcripts sometimes, to catch up on what they'd miss when they were asleep.

@KevinB this one, I agree. Just like 10k see deleted posts and mods see deleted comments on the post in-place, chat messages should be possible to be deleted by ROs and seen in-place

an alternative i'd be ok with would be instead letting us actually delete messages

I hate the idea of moving messages

@SomewhatMemorableName I think the only part RO's can't do is delete? they can see stuff in place, IIRC

technically... I think ROs d have the option to delete messages not through the UI

the see in place part already exists (except for the transcript view, that should be fixed)

although maybe that got fixed

in the transcript, the (removed) messages just don't display

ah, yeah, oops, I forgot that ROs can already see them >_< (talk about an abuse to "private message to RO"...)

yeah, we've definitely abused it for that in the past, :p

mostly just for sharing links we don't necessarily want to be public

Okay, who ordered some rambling thoughts on uncomfortable things?

I'd appreciate feedback :)

> Twitter is a trash fire. -- Shog9

Ah. Thanks. that's useful info :)

I kinda like Twitter. I used it today to contact the train companies customer service (after I called first)... they're a lot nicer on Twitter.

Well, after following April's conversation on Twitter...

@Tinkeringbell Because of social pressure

@Magisch Maybe. I had people on speaker when calling the customer service person though, so there was pressure then too?

Anyway, it takes some chatting with the guy at the station organizing stuff to find out the problem ;)

With the difference that a tweet can go viral and mean real pr damage

@Magisch Oh, they don't have to worry about that. I don't have any followers on Twitter and I dm'ed them, so no viral ;)

Right, but they do

Anything that's out in the public has the ability to go viral, and tweets, regardless of the number of followers you have, are completely public

@ShadowWizard These days, I often edit a "possible duplicate of" comment to clarify where exactly the question is answered in the proposed target. Unfortunately, if you use your Chaos Emerald before I finish making the edit, the comment gets deleted and my edit gets wiped out. Thus, it would be great if you waited until the 5-minute threshold for editing comments expires, to give me a chance to edit.

...

(By the way, if one edits a "possible duplicate of" comment, it won't be deleted once the question gets closed as a dupe. Only if it's not edited will it be deleted.)

are... you proposing that a close voter sit around and wait 5 minutes before closing questions that someone else votes on?

If you're impatient, you can refresh the page to see if I've finished making the edit, and then use your Chaos Emerald.

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog no I won't wait. Simply explain in a new followup comment, without a link. (Otherwise it would be deleted as well.)

@ShadowWizard Fun fact: the behavior has changed.

You can start a feature request asking to enforce this. (lock a question for closing as duplicate for 5 minutes after the last close vote was cast)

I thought you agreed you wouldn't use Chaos Emeralds instantly after asking, in order to get me to stop leaving links to How do I get attention for old, unfixed bug reports and feature requests without official responses here on Meta?

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog doesn't really matter... anyway so you can always make a quick trivial edit to prevent deletion, then work on your "real" edit. This way you waste your own time, not time of others.

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Okay. I'll bite. What's a Chaos Emerald?

@Tinkeringbell dupe close hammer.

Then why not call it a dupe close hammer? (That's related to gold badges, right?). This is confusing new users and excluding them from the conversation :/

@Tinkeringbell because he's Sonic. ;)

I'm a parrot. I'm not one-boxing messages back at people... :P

@Shadow And you're Shadow (the Hedgehog). ;)

Well, we all have the right to have some fun here, that's the kind of fun @Sonic has which is legit IMO. @Tinkeringbell

Okay.

Others use weird acronyms which only few understand... which is also fine. :)

Mjolnir

@ShadowWizard The weird acronyms are google-able? If you're talking about stuff as IIRC ;). Also, SE has this list of abbreviations, it didn't include chaos emeralds (hence why I asked)

@KevinB I think he meant this only for me.... not sure though.

@Tinkeringbell IIRC is fine, common enough and Google-able... I mean different things, will try to find example.

@ShadowWizard @KevinB Yep.

hehe, so it makes it legit, I don't care getting such "requests", even though I'm not promising to always agree to them. :)

Found one!

/cc @Tinkeringbell ^

Who knows what LRIO means?

Now that can be somewhat annoying... but still, fun to learn and then you can "troll" others with it. :)

@ShadowWizard In that case, please give me 30 seconds to make the trivial edit. I don't want a case where even the trivial edit gets wiped out because you closed 1 second after my comment.

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog heh, 30 seconds is reasonable, I'm usually not that fast anyway.

make a fast small edit then do your bigger edit

That what I said. :)

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You could just write the comment again in case others can't smell you're still editing ;)

hmm... anybody else think that "CoC" isn't good to use on SE as it's already "taken" and many people will think SE is affiliated with Clash of Clans? ;)

@Tinkeringbell The text gets wiped out on submission if the comment gets deleted while you're editing it. You'll have to totally re-compose the comment (copy the title, copy the link, try and remember what you said, etc...)

@ShadowWizard "BNP" is already affiliated with "BNP Paribas".

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog must be less common as I never heard it before. ;)

In South America it's popular, I believe

ctrl+a -> ctrl+c

It's all about the numbers.

@KevinB In case you forgot about the possibility of someone using their Chaos Emerald? Also, if you had something else in your Clipboard you wanted to save?

what if the sky was blue?

@KevinB can probably also write some userscript to "backup" any comment being written into local draft that can be later accessed if needed.

Alternatively, just write as a new comment "[this answer](link) from the dupe answers your question." simple and short.

@KevinB then it won't rain.

@KevinB ... was it?

@SomewhatMemorableName I guess I haven't made my situation clear. I edit "possible duplicate of" comments to make it clear exactly where the dupe is answered. Sometimes, answers may be split into several sections. Also, your solution doesn't salvage the title, which is what I prefer.

Alright, alright, personal preference...

You don't want to change, but you expect others to change (deja vu)

@SomewhatMemorableName The overall work spend is much less if Shadow makes the change. He just has to wait 30 seconds (which he agreed to doing). Whereas I have to...

And I agreed to make a trivial edit and replace it with my full edit so that he could close after 30 seconds instead of 5 minutes. I agreed to make a change too, so you can't make the assertion that I "don't want to change".

My seconds are precious!

... in case someone other than Shadow (e.g. SE staffs) hammers it in less than 10 seconds?

@SomewhatMemorableName SE staff nearly always explain their actions.

Plus use of the Master Emerald is rarer.

@Tinkeringbell You familiar with the Sonic franchise by Sega?

but 1% it might happen that SE staff hammers it and doesn't explain their actions.

anyway, never mind... I should sleep...

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog It's a blue hedgehog you run around to collect rings, and that's all I know. I'm really bad at those kinds of games, I always fall on the spikes or get hit by one of the obstacles or miss a jump or something.

@Tinkeringbell You Europeans initially got a much slower Sonic than the U.S. and Japan

Does this sound rude? 'The line of code list_model.clear() is throwing the exception. If you don't know how that is even possible, don't comment'

@MartinJames Yeah. What is it trying to achieve?

Is there context I'm not getting?

I did flag it as r/a, but was not sure if I was being too harsh...

yeah, I'd be inclined to say that's less than perfectly polite. I'm getting a 'I'm tired of these questions, I just want my answer' vibe?

i mean... it'd be a lot more "rude" coming from someone other than the op, but it's still rude.

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog It is my privilege to vote to close that question

@SomewhatMemorableName let's not go there ... I don't think you'll like it, nor do I ...

@ShadowWizard this one: meta.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/58494

undo's minirant / random musing of the day: It sure seems like what unwelcoming-ness there is on SO comes from a few known folks that cycle through suspensions, but a majority that I see in comment flags comes from new users themselves.

Which makes sense - there are far more new users than not-new users. Even if established users offend at a much higher rate, 1% of the ocean of new users is a lot at SO scales.

like, for example, this comment from a 1-rep user that I'd love to share, recommending a career in comedy to a 20ker in response to, literally, "What have you written so far?"

@Undo I think Magisch tried to point that out in one of their answers, that it's kinda hard to be held to a standard if you see hit-and-run people that are being kind of rude... and that never return. Here? meta.stackexchange.com/a/312051/369802

Honestly, I'm tempted to say we should start being way harder on new users that pull crap like that.

We don't really worry about it because it's not worth it. And it's still probably not worth it and would make no difference.

@Undo Feeling vindicated or having frustrations pent up is a difference? But yeah, it probably wouldn't. People that want to contribute constructively will change, others just disappear.

It seems like this bug still exists. Evidence: meta.stackexchange.com/review/reopen/58473 meta.stackexchange.com/review/close/58501

And it does increment your review count, so it's possible to gain the Reviewer and Steward badges through deception. It matters because those two badges are ones that count towards moderator candidate scores.

meh

It looks like the Suggested Edits queue is immune to this. I couldn't test out in the Low Quality Posts review queue because those tasks are hidden on user profiles.

If someone were to give me an example Low Quality task they reviewed, so I can test it out there, that would be very nice.

One more severe example: meta.stackexchange.com/review/reopen/55512

@Undo to me the sanest approach is to treat everyone the same

but everyone isn't the same. Isn't that the whole point?

@KevinB if an experienced user is not nice, he has less of an excuse

sure. but i think differing penalties would make more sense

We arn't punishing the person, we're penalising the action ;)

as an example, you suspend an experienced user, they're likely to return. You suspend a newcomer on their first post, likely not. I don't think that necessarily means we should "go easy" on them, but if we do, we should apply the same to the experienced user performing the same action

@KevinB on the other hand, the experienced user should understand the system better.

Part of the goals of our (mostly standardised) mod messages is also to inform where a user went wrong

and I'd be more inclined to send a poor quality question mod message with no suspension to a new user, and suspend a more experienced user, since the less experienced user would get qbanned

but.. say rudeness?

I'd hit them with the same suspension.

As I tend to tell people. If I need to suspend a user, especially more than once, its almost a failure on our part too

(well some users less so)