Tavern on the Meta

Somewhat Memorable Name

1:01 AM

ugh morning

user298438

ughh

interstate ???

trying to restart the translation bot

translate pt: Feed?

not working

Journeyman Geek

1:50 AM

@user298438 eh, that's not a very nice thing to say

Undo

2:10 AM

Why does that need to be flagged?

Journeyman Geek

@Undo well, network policy on rudeness, user who clearly isn't playing nice...

Undo

Are we defining all bad words as rude now?

Journeyman Geek

the other, flag-deleted message says the same thing

@Undo its kinda sans context, aimed at.. I donno, not really making any sense

Undo

The one with flags on it now is not directed at anyone.

If we're gonna take that stance, you basically have to ban a list of words in any context. Might as well be a server block.

Journeyman Geek

139

A: Are expletives (cursing, swear words or vulgar language) allowed on SE sites?

No. Expletives are not acceptable behavior on any Stack Exchange site, even on Meta. There are a very small handful of exceptions (such as if you were talking about the word itself on a language site), but in general you should not use expletives anywhere, under any circumstances. If you can't e...

I invoke meta here.

Undo

2:13 AM

That's talking about the sites.

Journeyman Geek

Also the fact that the user said the same thing again when asked nicely. And on the whole isn't making very much sense.

Catija

It's gratuitous and doesn't add anything.

Undo

@JourneymanGeek I don't debate that, I debate the practice of flagging other messages in order to achieve a desired outcome.

May 15 at 17:59, by Shog9

And if you're gonna be pedantic, "fuck" isn't profanity.

Journeyman Geek

@Undo both messages flagged say the same thing

Undo

In different contexts

Journeyman Geek

2:15 AM

Ok, so the first isn't aimed at anyone cause... IDK, the lines before that dosen't exactly make sense to me.

Undo

Translate bot

(which has been broken forever)

Journeyman Geek

But is there any value it?

Undo

Are we defining chat based on value?

'cause there goes Anime

Catija

The translate bot was mod only as far as I'm aware... and only staff are mods here.

Rob

Are we seriously going to have this long debate about this? It was profanity for the sake of profanity. It's not worth this whole discussion.

Undo

2:17 AM

But it wasn't. Not the way I read it, at least

Journeyman Geek

Cause I literally asked nicely, which I always do, for people who do.

I mean, that's literally the first thing I do.

And I don't think flagging that was out of line either

Makyen

@JourneymanGeek Interestingly, the original consensus was "Yes, but keep them to a minimum", which was at a score of 142 3 years ago, which is above the current score of "No". I'm not arguing either way, just pointing out that there's been an answer deleted which appears to manipulate what's believed to be the consensus.

Shog9

Look at the edit history of both answers

John Dvorak

2:36 AM

If we are to compile a list of banned words, could we add "literally" there? It's misused too much.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak is it literally used too much?

John Dvorak

And, since "problem" is already there, let's add "programming"

Journeyman Geek

and I actually used literally literally

Undo

@JohnDvorak yes please

Journeyman Geek

It does, shockingly enough, do what it says on the tin, used as per the instructions.

John Dvorak

2:38 AM

The turn indicator lights also indicate the car is about to make a turn ... if used that way.

Makyen

@Shog9 I'd be happy to, but can't, as I can't see deleted posts on MSE. However, I don't really see a fundamental change to the answer in the "No" answer's edit history (which I can see). The archive of the "Yes, but minimal" answer indicates it was, prior to the archive, most recently edited on 2009-04-11. I'm not trying to argue either "yes" or "no", just that the removal of that answer results in a distorted view that it's the consensus that there isn't even a dissenting point of view.

I'd be fine with it just being stated that "this is the way it's going to be, because the SE decided it would be". My issue is that it's presented as a normal Q&A, with votes, which strongly implies that it's the collective consensus of the people using the network, which is a distortion of what appears to really be the case.

Shog9

@Makyen point wasn't so much the edits as the combined chronology

Summary is that a bunch of answers were all deleted at the same time the remaining answer was edited

Because it isn't exactly a normal question; traditionally meta faq questions are treated as wikis

Catija

Part of the problem is that's just how the network is... MSE is a source of information/documentation about the network. That's what the FAQs are... it's not about consensus, it's the rules that aren't only codified in the help center.

It wouldn't hurt to put some of that in the official documentation/CoC etc... and I'm guessing that's what today's blog post is saying... they're going to be doing more of that... but even then, those ToC statements of policy need to be pretty general. That's how policy works. Too many specific rules and you get people rules-lawyering you into submission. We require the sites to be a place of respectful discourse...

Journeyman Geek

@Makyen I wouldn't even have pulled it out if Undo hadn't asked why

My philosphy of chat moderation is that is isn't something you can do by focusing on individual events.

Its really about setting what works well for the room itself over a period of time.

Shog9

IIRC, the impetus for the cleanup was yet another in a string of arguments involving folks pointing at different answers as justification for... Well, doing whatever they wanted: cussin', flagging, complaining

Journeyman Geek

2:50 AM

I've had 8 years to do that on RA. I've had a few months here, most of which I didn't really use my powers.

RA = root access - the SU chat room

So, stuff like this is literally "hey, this is kinda how we want this space to be, please" first

John Dvorak

I don't think a zero tolerance for swearwords is making the chat any better...

Journeyman Geek

maan, we've had this conversation before

ok, so...

personally I'm not a zero tolerance person.

John Dvorak

Good

Stephen Rauch

What is a swear word?

Journeyman Geek

I mean, if there's mind profanity in the middle of a conversation, I'm not even going to notice

Catija

2:57 AM

I don't think we have a zero tolerance policy in here, anyway... but I popped in here and the first thing I saw was a bright red message in my face with just a swear word... really not what I needed ...

3

Journeyman Geek

My typical response to minding is often going "hey, language" or "dude, that might get you in trouble, want me to move it?"

John Dvorak

I do not oppose removing non-sequitur swearwords like has just happened.

Journeyman Geek

We can agree there

So, for me, rule 0 is "the chat must flow"

Somewhat Memorable Name

if it were [status-fubar], then I don't think anyone care, but well, "F- off"?

Journeyman Geek

da

Catija

3:00 AM

Yep. I don't have a problem with that.

John Dvorak

Smokey uses the poop emoji for NAAs

Journeyman Geek

lol

Does she?

John Dvorak

and I like that

Somewhat Memorable Name

but it's on MS, outside of SE environment

Journeyman Geek

ah

John Dvorak

3:03 AM

unless you install the AIM userscript, which also brings them to chat

Makyen

@Shog9 I certainly don't have a problem with the cleanup of most of the answers (the others I've skimmed weren't useful). I even prefer "No, with some minor, specific exceptions". It just concerns me that there was a long standing (i.e. many years) opposite answer (or at least one with different shades of emphasis), that was deleted on a post that does get used to justify a specific stance. While the intent of the cleanup may not have been to show one POV as a consensus, it has that effect.

I'd honestly be more comfortable with just a policy statement that says the same thing as the current answer is just the way it's going to be on SE.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak 0_0

I thought chat did emoji

🐕🐕🐕

Makyen

@JourneymanGeek Yes, it supports Unicode characters, as you've now demonstrated. :-)

Journeyman Geek

@Makyen oh, that seemed better than... well testing it with the poopmoji ;)

Makyen

Probably a good choice :-)

Somewhat Memorable Name

3:11 AM

We had... at least 2 toilet emojis recently on this room, and one got starred ~_~

Journeyman Geek

hah

Friend of mine and I have a thing were we do co-op games...

Catija

And PorkChat makes them huge... which is fun.

Journeyman Geek

chat.stackexchange.com/search?q=why+am+I+a+toilet&room=118

that turned into a meme

Catija

3:30 AM

What's better... toilets or teapots?

Somewhat Memorable Name

Catija

Well I guess that's a number 2-418?

Shog9

@Makyen so... Here's the dirty little secret: when Jeff posted that answer, he was effectively saying, "this is how I'm going to moderate".

...actually, that wasn't much of a secret

it didn't much matter that there was another answer that scored higher; if you wrote vulgar posts and they got flagged, they'd probably get deleted. Particularly on meta.

Heck... Some common bits of vulgarity got built into the flagging system, so they'd get deleted immediately. And that's still true to this day.

John Dvorak

3:46 AM

:The words "accept rate" being most profane of all

Shog9

But... Folks would go to meta, and see those two answers, and say, "the system is WRONG! this top answer says I CAN post vulgar stuff! With extra exclamation points! With no repercussions! As long as I do so in moderation! And my definition of moderation involves EXCESS! ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO CAPS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!!!1!ONEONEONE!"

and by "say" I mean "reply to the mod message suspending them"

which of course accomplished nothing

The FAQ exists to describe how the system works. Not how folks wish it worked.

John Dvorak

Can't we align the two?

Somewhat Memorable Name

Swear Overflow

John Dvorak

f*** yeah!

Somewhat Memorable Name

seaking!

(oops, wrong pokemon)

Catija

3:52 AM

The needs of people who are at work and don't want vulgar content and swear words on their screen outweigh the wishes of the people who want to cuss in posts... whether that extends more formally to chat is somewhat up in the air at this point... and that may be clarified more in the future. As Jeff says... what value does it add? Cussing in posts (if they're not about cussing) serves no value to later readers, it only lets the OP feel a little better to be ranting about a problem they have.

John Dvorak

It can make the post more entertaining to read

Somewhat Memorable Name

But... we hate fun :(

Catija

We're not here to entertain... and there are plenty of people who don't find it entertaining at all.

John Dvorak

Less relevant on SO (where we hate anything but a good ole debugging session), more relevant on sites I actually like to visit.

Shog9

> Ah, now... Cursing is another matter. Wretched spam! May your for loops spin impotently, your stacks overflow, your segments fault, and all your accesses be deemed violations! May someone let all the smoke out of your monitors, and may all your tin grow whiskers.

that was the REAL loss of deleting the other answers

Journeyman Geek

3:54 AM

if you must curse, be creative? ;)

Catija

Now that's entertainment. :)

John Dvorak

I'd say that on WorldBuilding, "you're fucked" is a touch more effective at driving the point home than any allusion to furniture components.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak but its better to go why one is, well, up a water body of post consumer food without an impeller... then to tell them they're up s*** creek without a paddle.

and I think saying "you're f****d" on a post on WB will certainly be flagged, and is against community standards without a doubt.

John Dvorak

shame

Journeyman Geek

Its just how its always worked

and we do well enough without profanity

Somewhat Memorable Name

3:58 AM

Still no better than this meta post (warning, swear overflow)

Journeyman Geek

@SomewhatMemorableName heh

John Dvorak

2

A: Could a Spaceship Enter/Exit the Atmosphere Without Landing

Going strictly off of your original question without knowledge of your comments specify more, then yes it's possible, and yes we probably do have the technology right now to do it. If you look at Blue Origin's New Shepherd rocket, it's designed to burn straight up until it's apogee is above the...

Journeyman Geek

ehh. Feel free to flag I guess

Catija

@SomewhatMemorableName That... has probably outlived its usefulness...

Journeyman Geek

shrug

John Dvorak

4:00 AM

I'm not going to flag this and I hope you won't either.

Journeyman Geek

@Catija heh, that actually kinda reflects how much things have changed ;)

But I think that was literally "Atwood as the community team" era

@JohnDvorak naw

I'm not really a fan of "But they did this!"

John Dvorak

How are we supposed to learn from examples then?

Journeyman Geek

And kinda finding that balance between being friendly and welcoming, and getting offended by everything. ;)

hmm

Well, as a user, I'd appreciate that moderation takes into account common sense and nuance

if it was something trivially automatable, it would

John Dvorak

Common sense would be nice, yes. Which is why I'm perfectly fine with swearwords on WB.

Journeyman Geek

And so, this is a problem I face a lot on the other chat.

On one hand, I usually can handle profanity I am not comfortable with without resulting to my mod tools, or the threat of it

On the other, the levels of proactiveness and management style of it varies so much that some users kinda feel that they need to worry about some random person flagging something, and some random set of people handling it..

and unfortunately the result of this can vary between outright hostilty to just a chilling effect.

John Dvorak

4:07 AM

What if we removed 10k chat flagging and left it to mods?

Journeyman Geek

hmm

That results in a lot of gaps

Somewhat Memorable Name

euphemism helps... shuck instead of S-word, darn instead of D-word, foock instead of F-word

Journeyman Geek

@SomewhatMemorableName personally?

I type it out, stare at it, then go change it to something that reflects a broader vocabulary :)

GiantCowFilms

@SomewhatMemorableName To me that is just a sign of a person who does not know how to communicate without swearing.

John Dvorak

@GiantCowFilms don't we all?

GiantCowFilms

4:09 AM

If you think about something long enough, there is usually a more effective way to communicate without swearing.

Journeyman Geek

yup

GiantCowFilms

@JohnDvorak No. Some of us don't swear, don't speed, don't drink, don't do drugs and we are perfectly happy and fine. That blows some people's mind.

Journeyman Geek

hah

John Dvorak

Don't drink? Yeeugh.

Somewhat Memorable Name

except I was wrong: 1657 "damn"s and 436 "darn"s on here.

Journeyman Geek

4:11 AM

I'm not sure about perfectly happy, but yeah, I don't swear much, drink alchohol or do drugs

@SomewhatMemorableName damn is super super mild IMO

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

In some cultures, "damn" isn't considered an offensive word.

GiantCowFilms

@JohnDvorak Hopefully you didn't for the first 21 (or whatever the legal age where you live is) years on this planet. The trick is don't start.

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog But in some it is. Therefore out of respect for those other cultures, don't use it.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek Same with me

Rob

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog In most, I'd say

GiantCowFilms

And if you aren't aware, you can always apologize and don't do it again.

Journeyman Geek

4:12 AM

@GiantCowFilms yup

You cannot be perfectly self aware all the time

John Dvorak

I'm not going to stop drinking. We have good beer where I live.

Also, I live 400 km away from some great wine producers, and it shows in our grocery stores and occasionally in my fridge.

Catija

Giving up booze isn't difficult for me...

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JohnDvorak IIRC you're German, right?

John Dvorak

Czech

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Ah, right, I forgot the origin of your namesake keyboard layout.

@Catija When did you?

GiantCowFilms

4:17 AM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog plot twist he has secretly been using QWERTY the whole time.

John Dvorak

I actually have

Catija

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog ... February... and before that in November '15... sort of required.

John Dvorak

Not secretly though, it's just the topic never came up

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@GiantCowFilms Don't you mean QWERTZ?

GiantCowFilms

I have a "Y" key there. Unless there is a joke I'm not getting.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

4:19 AM

QWERTZ

The QWERTZ or QWERTZU keyboard is a typewriter and keyboard layout widely used in Central Europe. The name comes from the first six letters at the top left of the keyboard: Q, W, E, R, T, and Z. == Overview == The main difference between QWERTZ and QWERTY is that the positions of the Z and Y keys are switched (hence the nickname "kezboard"). This change was made for two major reasons: "Z" is a much more common letter than "Y" in German; the latter rarely appears outside words whose spellings reflect either their importation from a foreign language or the Hellenization of an older German form under...

GiantCowFilms

Ah.

I didn't know that.

I could imagine switching would be really annoying, typing y's instead of z's and z's instead of y's.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Try French...AZERTY

John Dvorak

It's prettz eayz to get used to it

GiantCowFilms

lol

John Dvorak

I mean... It's prettz eqyz to get used to it