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Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
12:06 AM
Why do you want to shut it down?
does keeping it have any value at all?
How much does it cost you?
can you go static?
 
bjb568
bjb568
It might be useful to show people that I have done a big project before.
It doesn't cost much.
I think I might clean it up a bit and archive the unfinished parts to have any value as static things.
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
12:27 AM
I know we all are mostly against fun or humor, but this seems to be even worth a one box:
 
 
2 hours later…
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
2:29 AM
@πάνταῥεῖ PRIMITIVES...
they have VCRs and CRTs?
I think chat's happier about appropriate fun
Main sites are all FUN IST VERBHOTEN! SCHNELL?
(my german is worse than my french... nothing is worse than my polish, of which i speak none)
and all the russian I know is SOVETSKY SOYUTZ!
Which is sadly useless since the soviets got replaced by a slightly less cool evil empire that dosen't even pretend to be for the people.
 
Catija
Catija
:/
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@Catija ?
 
Catija
Catija
That's just a weird thought.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
Most of it was, lol
 
 
2 hours later…
Somewhat Memorable Name
Somewhat Memorable Name
5:01 AM
1 more hour later...
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
5:24 AM
After uncounted time and eons passing....
 
 
1 hour later…
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
6:25 AM
@JourneymanGeek true! And I still have no idea what @Catija meant by that. :/
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
@YvetteColomb My first animal picture here: a mama bear and her two cubs
 
Magisch
Magisch
morning everyone
I found this on HNQ and there are some really mean comments on it
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
6:51 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog does it symbolize anything?
@Magisch can't see them now... most or all written by user called "SSimon", I guess?
 
user310756
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog amazing :)
 
Magisch
Magisch
I am confused who is the problem here? student or advisor? apparently, the student doesn't care much, but advisor don't want to look soft. There is also quilt trip of OP bcs he was a father once. If you want help him unconditionally, or it is possible that you are bad in interviewing and assesing references? — SSimon yesterday
how did they accept him in frist place? — SSimon yesterday
@electrique ower UK student? — SSimon yesterday
And then one about how people with aspergers can "never have a good reputation or collaboration" in academia
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
@Magisch how is this mean?
@Magisch how is this mean?
One has full right to be offended by anything, we've been through it a lot, I simply can't see anything wrong of offensive personally in those comments.
 
Magisch
Magisch
7:06 AM
It's the general tone of their comments on that q
didn't flag the latter two as rude, but they add to the generally iffy tone
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
Well, one has the right to not be satisfied with something and say it. But say it in a non offensive way, and that appears the case there.
We can't force people to use nice tone, I'm afraid.
 
Martin James
Martin James
'family issues' is a shield phrase. That is what all students/employees learn as the answer to use when asked 'Why did you not turn up for lectures/fwork/whatever' when they have no explanation they can give. A reply of 'family issues', and nothing more at all, is well-known by tutors/employers - it means 'none of your business, you cannot ask any more questions without losing in any future court actions'.
 
Magisch
Magisch
considering they have a baby at home it's also probably the real reason
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
@MartinJames shield phrase... heh. Reminds me of GDPR for some reason. :D
 
Magisch
Magisch
"The sitter cancelled on me and I've had to watch the baby every day for 3 weeks" is more then a little "TMI" for a phd advisor, don't you think @MartinJames?
 
Martin James
Martin James
7:20 AM
@ShadowWizard lol, when I posted it, I did notice that it sounded a bit legalese. I am not a lawyer, honest! Please believe me! I'm just a serial killer and child abuser - I have no legal qualifications at all! :)
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
@MartinJames eww, you're Evil Dexter! :P
 
Martin James
Martin James
@ShadowWizard lol
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
7:42 AM
@ShadowWizard I'm on the autism spectrum, and I definitely do see something wrong in those comments.
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
Like I said... anyone got the right to feel offended or see insults everywhere. :)
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
@ShadowWizard "Be Nice" policy
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
All good, but I don't think that it's wrong to express opinions.
 
Magisch
Magisch
I'm not offended tbh but that tone doesn't jive with me
feels gross somehow. Idk where that's coming from just does
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@ShadowWizard Well in theory...
we can...
It won't end well, but... sure
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
7:46 AM
sure, and lose most of the users.
Think that's the direction anyway.
Stack Exchange will be super nice, but empty.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@ShadowWizard I suspect most users won't care as long as they can ask questions
and "not nice" is "noise"
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
@JourneymanGeek I talk about those who answer.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@ShadowWizard that's another problem, but I kinda feel that more on chat than elsewhere
 
Derpy
Derpy
I'm not annoying ;_;


... not too much, at least
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
and a lot of the ones who complain arn't the ones who go.
Unless they crash and burn and ragequit
and on the other hand, if folks think being "not nice" is fine, we lose people we'd rather keep
Only that that is a problem that isn't going to be handled that effectively from the top
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
7:51 AM
@Derpy hehe, not you. :)
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
ones again though
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
@JourneymanGeek it's not being "not nice", it's not being able to say anything anymore for the fear of being flagged anyway.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@ShadowWizard ya, the chilling effect's kinda a problem we have at the moment
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
(e.g. "this answer is incorrect because [x, y, z]" - this now can be flagged as it can offend the author somehow.)
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
eh, whether the flag is accepted though?
cause in theory a no longer needed flag can be appropriate in some cases
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
7:53 AM
@JourneymanGeek no mod, three or four of those and poof, comment gone. And its author knows he did something wrong, so won't explain downvotes anymore.
And that's a small part.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
and... kinda ironically, isn't that something that has been discouraged for years?
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
"Wait! A lot of your recent comments have been flagged and deleted. Before posting your comment, please read the [guidelines for commenting]".
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
@JourneymanGeek explaining downvotes in constructive way has been encouraged.
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
(Hypothetical message)
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog has been suggested
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
7:55 AM
Link?
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@ShadowWizard and if the OP's seen it and reacted... we want it gone anyway
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog ... Pretty sure it should have been anyway ;p
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
This would be useful on IPS, which has a stricter comment policy than most sites
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
hah
Every time I see that text, I go "its... not a clarification request" and .... not post a comment
so I guess that works? ;p
 
Derpy
Derpy
@Catija you meant "until you build up the muscle memory" right? Because unless you also memorize a lot of kanji... you writing will look like a 9 year old anyway :P
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
@JoeFriend hey, just wonder if the fact "Left nav, new theming and responsiveness" got -136 score has any effect on future plans regarding it? Obviously it's too late to undo/reverse it, but what about things that haven't been started yet? Personally I do support it, but can also understand the many people who are against changes, using "if it's not broken, don't fix it" mantra.
-136 isn't that low, some got even worse... :)
Net rep gain is still positive too: 630-524=106 rep
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
8:04 AM
@ShadowWizard and more than the raw score what the answers say are important
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
@JourneymanGeek yup, but most just vote without leaving answer.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
People may have specific dislikes - the 'standardisation' of team elements, I dislike. The left sidebar on the other hand I'm ok with.
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
We should also take into account anonymous feedback from those without rep to downvote.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
the fact that meta works gloriously on my phone makes me happy for when SU supports it.
(since I need to use desktop view on my phone to mod)
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
Someone wrote in a comment that the new design is like Facebook... I honestly can't see how??
oh, top comment.
The new layout feels like facebook. I don't wanna be on facebook :/ — rafid059 Jun 12 at 17:42
Think people just like to label anything they don't like as "feels like Facebook".
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
8:06 AM
lol
 
Derpy
Derpy
8:31 AM
worse....it looks like....


SharePoint!
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
them's fighting words
 
Derpy
Derpy
@JourneymanGeek Them's Fighting Herds
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
Them's Flighting Nerds.
 
Derpy
Derpy
...... and thanks to the magic of Google, now I know that someone actually made Sheldon Cooper as a MUGEN character
 
rene
rene
9:35 AM
I'm status-completed on MSO ...
 
Derpy
Derpy
@rene I dream the day someone will get the gold hammer power on a tag like status-completed
I wonder if using said power to reopen all the closed status-completed questions should be considered "abuse the system" or "ok, we get it, this power makes no sense for some tags"
 
Somewhat Memorable Name
Somewhat Memorable Name
only reopen dupes
 
Magisch
Magisch
@rene plant more rene flowers status-completed
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@Derpy gold hammers can only dupe close tho
 
Derpy
Derpy
yep sorry, my bad.
Make it "close as dupe of the Announcing ToS change question"
 
 
3 hours later…
Derpy
Derpy
12:27 PM
sorry Smokey, nopony here
 
Derpy
Derpy
12:40 PM
Debugging app, finding out the specs don't match....
printing out a 烈 kanji
sticking that on your forehead...
 
Somewhat Memorable Name
Somewhat Memorable Name
1:25 PM
肉 on forehead
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
@Derpy Mojibake?
 
Derpy
Derpy
@Mgetz Retsuko
 
Somewhat Memorable Name
Somewhat Memorable Name
Just noticed a design bug, but I believe someone has reported about the questionable tag score's font size on someone's profile?
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
@Derpy yo no hable
 
Shadow Wizard
Shadow Wizard
@SomewhatMemorableName tag score font size is different depending on the score, it's been like that for years.
but no, didn't notice any related bug report.
 
Derpy
Derpy
1:37 PM
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
@Derpy right I started to try to watch that and couldn't get into it
 
 
3 hours later…
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
4:36 PM
@ShadowWizard The up/down vote tally isn't particularly meaningful on meta, from my point of view. There are so many layers to making UX changes like this. And, the role of feedback on meta is unclear for many people. I'm working on a post that lays out my thoughts on the role of feedback from the community. So, I'll leave all that for that post.
But, there is quite a bit of good feedback in the answers. Not all of it is actionable, but we are already working on some specific improvements based on it.
 
Feeds
Feeds
4:46 PM
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
5:39 PM
@JoeFriend and yet it has a significant and important affect on participation
 
Catija
Catija
5:55 PM
@JoeFriend I'm really glad to hear that. It's so interesting to me that, on one hand, we get complaints that y'all don't take input from the community but, at the same time, when stuff is rolled out "incomplete" the way you're doing it with this, they complain that you're making half-finished work live. Sure, you could wait to release until it was more complete but you might make some choices that the community has a better solution for.
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
I think you're supposed to post a question on MSx
 
Catija
Catija
I think it's much more useful to y'all to get feedback at intermediate stages so that you might save yourself time working on either something people really, really have issues with or can opt to work on something that more people find to be of value.
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
how about experimental features being opt-x?
 
Catija
Catija
Sort of like user-selected A/B testing? I'm not sure how easy that would be to implement... plus, I'd worry that the people selecting to opt in might not be totally representative...
But maybe?
 
Shog9
Shog9
eh
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
6:05 PM
Better than reducing usability for people who you won't get feedback from anyways
 
Shog9
Shog9
Here's the thing: you roll out a feature change that affects everyone, there's a really good chance it's going to affect a non-trivial number of people badly.
You can make it opt-in, opt-out, gradual rollout, A/B tested up the wazoo...
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
<cue XKCD spacebar heating>
 
Shog9
Shog9
...and maybe that'll help you quantify how many folks are likely to be helped vs. hindered by the change...
...but at some point, it goes live for everyone and that *n*% are still unhappy
So all these other things, they have good uses, but not making people unhappy isn't one of them. If you didn't want n% unhappy, you wouldn't roll it out.
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
and they'll complain you didn't listen to feedback
 
Catija
Catija
They complain anyway.
 
Shog9
Shog9
6:08 PM
I'm pretty sure nobody involved in this sidebar thing labored under the idea that lots and lots of people don't hate sidebars.
Lots and lots of people hate sidebars. Either because they get in the way, or because they tend to put lots of non-contextual tools ready at hand in lieu of useful, contextual tools, or simply because they associate the layout with Facebook / MSDN / Amazon / DevGuru.com / some other site they hate.
We don't suddenly have a left-hand sidebar because left-hand sidebars are universally loved
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
Why then?
 
Shog9
Shog9
We have it because in theory it allows us to expand navigation without making the top bar 6 inches high.
 
Catija
Catija
... or requiring users to depend on 8 different dropdown menus and remembering what's in each one so they can pick the right one the first time.
 
Shog9
Shog9
That's the reason. And it's a very important reason, but it is NOT a reason that everyone is going to appreciate.
If I just want to see questions in the half-dozen tags that interest me every day, a sidebar isn't going to thrill me. It does nothing for how I use the site and may even get in the way. And there's no amount of testing that's going to change that.
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
remembering your dropdowns would have been easier if they weren't icon-only and moving around with each update :P
 
Shog9
Shog9
6:13 PM
Note that I'm emphatically NOT saying that testing is bad or a waste of time. Just that you need to do it for the right reasons.
Chief among them, making sure that
1. your design actually accomplishes what you need it to
2. your design doesn't actively hurt other use-cases more than you expected it to
This is why stuff like New Nav got put behind opt-in feature flags: it wasn't entirely clear that it'd do what it was supposed to and had a very real chance of breaking the site for a lot of folks.
The sidebar may be annoying, but most stuff still works just fine even if you're constantly annoyed.
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
@Shog9 This was the same for the office ribbon, but you moved their cheese
 
Shog9
Shog9
If, suddenly, you can't filter by tag or search or follow links... That's a much bigger deal. That's gotta be caught and ironed out before you hit the entire population with it.
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
exactly 1mm to the right
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
or boot your computer :P
 
Shog9
Shog9
@Mgetz tangential, but the Ribbon is a fascinating case-study in doing this sort of work. Office was notorious for either not putting tools in the context where they were needed or actively putting modal screens up where normally-accessible tools were needed but now blocked. Half the point of the Ribbon was to be context-aware enough to give folks the tools they needed, when they needed them, without getting in the way...
...unfortunately, doing this involved potentially breaking hard-learned workflows for millions of people.
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
6:18 PM
@JohnDvorak that's not as funny as it sounds SE is a major target for malware authors that would LOOOOVE to get their nasty script running on SE sites
 
Shog9
Shog9
MS did some pretty crazy stuff to mitigate that, but compromises only go so far.
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
i hate the ribbon
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
@Mgetz I believe the EU gov't has even succeeded in that :P
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
@JohnDvorak no but it's another reason I think that SE needs a CSP
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
> Oh BTW, we too remember everything about you.
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
6:19 PM
Sadly SE also needs a LOT of things
security is just one item on that list
 
Shog9
Shog9
I used pre-Ribbon office heavily for years, and... Particularly in MS-Word... I grew to absolutely loathe it. Completely stupid UI. Ribbon launched with a lot of half-baked ideas and was not in any way clearly better than what came before... But it laid the groundwork for improvements that would've been impossible prior to that point, and that's what paid off long-term.
That's where this sidebar thing is trying to go. Right now, it's not clearly better than the top bar nav. In some ways, it is clearly much worse. But, it is a foundation that can be built on.
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
the new left nav, i understand the purpose of it and agree, but then it has this whole... "create team" button that just gets under my skin
 
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
@KevinB You are gonna hate that I ran the Word product management team for the 2007 release and was intimately involved in the ribbon. ;)
 
Shog9
Shog9
The success or fail of this will hing on our willingness to actually build. Not just toss a couple more links in there for Teams, but actually build out the sidebar to be the sort of comprehensive, context-aware navigation that SO has never had.
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
Perhaps don't roll out the foundation before there's something standing on it?
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
6:22 PM
The thing with the ribbon for me though was that i rarely ever used MS products
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
@Shog9 this assumes that the EU doesn't pass their insane copyright directive and destroys the internet first!
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
so when one day i happened to need it, it was all of a sudden a very different ui that i didn't know my way around, and i still rarely use it, so never really got to the point where i did know my way around it
 
Shog9
Shog9
And, I gotta be completely honest: that will require 100x more work than what we have right now. It isn't gonna be a clear win tomorrow, or next month. If we're dedicated, it might be by the end of the year, and by the end of next folks will be saying "how could we have waited so long for this"... But none of that is proven yet, so asking folks to trust us is both insufficient and the best we can muster.
 
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
I can go into detail about how the ribbon was a roaring success for the goals set out by the product team even though a very vocal subset of dedicated users hated. It is important to note that the ribbons goals were both usability and strategic in nature. I could go on and on about this stuff. But I won't.
 
Shog9
Shog9
@Mgetz I mean... That's the optimist perspective: the EU might destroy the Internet first and we can all just learn goat farming instead.
 
Catija
Catija
6:24 PM
The version of Office I use on my Mac still doesn't have the ribbon.
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
@Catija you sure that's office?
 
Catija
Catija
Yep. Andy used to have an MSDN membership from his old work and he got me a free copy of... 2011...
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
@Shog9 I can see them doing this merely to prop up the artisan goat industry
 
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
@Catija Clearly you need to upgrade. ;)
 
Martin James
Martin James
Arrghh! Who mentioned the ribbon controls? Overnight, I went from a competent Word user to being totally useless.
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
6:26 PM
@MartinJames I did, in the context of fixing what was beyond repair in a way everybody hated at the time
 
Catija
Catija
@JoeFriend I am getting more used to it... I use it at work and I'm almost able to remember where the stuff I use the most often is. ;) But I can't get it for free any more, so :(
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
I actually like the Ribbon. It drives people to LibreOffice instead :P
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
eh, i just hate marketing in general, and to me it feels like that is the primary goal of the new nav.
 
Shog9
Shog9
@JohnDvorak which had non-modal styling dialogs YEARS before Word did. Still can't believe it took MS so long to copy that.
But better late than never.
 
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
@Catija Stack Overflow uses Google docs (and company) and I really miss office. Though, working on a Mac these days makes me miss it less. I have a strong preference for the Windows apps.
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
6:27 PM
@Shog9 if only you knew just how broken the office codebase was... you'd cry
 
Shog9
Shog9
oh the hours I wasted trying to merge Word documents from multiple contributors none of whom used styles...
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
I've never worked for Microsoft but I've heard horror stories about the word and excel codebases
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
@Shog9 What about this alternate proposal?
One more point about the dupes: I believe most of the new users don't like their questions marked as duplicates, because many people tend to downvote these (for lack of research efforts). Wouldn't it be better to lock such duplicates for downvoting (below zero score) instead? If these aren't upvoted, roomba can take care of them if there's no positive score. — πάντα ῥεῖ 32 mins ago
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
codebases for Word and Excel, or in Word and Excel?
 
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
@KevinB What makes your comment so funny is that marketing the Teams feature was an afterthought in terms of the left nav. Using teams was a huge consideration.
 
Catija
Catija
6:28 PM
@JoeFriend I like Google's suite OK but there are a lot of things that I don't think I can do... I'm too used to Office, particularly Word and Excel.
 
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
@Catija Me too
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
I'd rather just get the menu Meta SO gets on Main SO
 
Shog9
Shog9
@Mgetz I spent several years automating various Office apps via their COM APIs, and hacking on the raw document formats. Both of which were crufty as hell. I can't imagine the code that sat behind either was any better.
 
Catija
Catija
@JoeFriend If marketing it was low-priority, would y'all consider making the SO interface look more like the MSO one for users who aren't on Teams?
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
@Shog9 I did too, both my first internship and my first job out of school were working on C# or J# in one case office addins
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
6:30 PM
than have 'Create Team'. for now i've just removed it myself, but getting the meta menu back is a bit more work than i'm willing to put forth the effort for atm.
 
Shog9
Shog9
"here's what the spec says this means. Now, ignore that, because Word does something entirely different depending on the presence of a record earlier in the document, so look for that and set a flag..."
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
@Shog9 apparently powerpoint isn't too bad for c++98 code
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
@Shog9 My colleague does that as well, an his WTF/min rate gets pretty high when he's working on it ;)
 
Shog9
Shog9
@Mgetz I can't tell if that's a compliment or not
 
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
@Catija I didn't say it was a low priority. I said it was an after thought. We need an easily accessible way for people to learn about Teams. We just didn't think about it a lot when we were designing the left nav.
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
6:31 PM
@Shog9 This is why they switched to the XML formats apparently, they had to comply with the DOJ settlement and realized just how much of a mess the binary formats were that they literally had no documentation.
 
Shog9
Shog9
@Mgetz heh... Yeah, I remember that whole mess
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
@Shog9 Dunno, the friend who'd seen the codebase didn't elaborate
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
can't it just be a link like jobs is?
 
Catija
Catija
@JoeFriend Ah. That's fair... Though, I think the same question sort of applies? Couldn't the sidebar look like MSO and still have the Teams info?
 
Shog9
Shog9
open office format vs. Doc vs. office XML: FIGHT!
 
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
6:32 PM
@Mgetz Not true. No direct connection between XML formats and DOJ.
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
seems slimey to me to make it a bait and switch.
 
Shog9
Shog9
I ended up just giving up and generating RTF for everything. It ended up being a lot more portable, albeit with some really awful hacks for Unicode support
 
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
@KevinB Honestly i really don't understand the aversion to the Teams entry. But I'm listening.
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
@JoeFriend I'll have to trust you on that, but the scuttlebutt I heard from friends that are there was that was a motivating factor (but definitely not the only one by a long shot)
 
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
How is it bait and switch?
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
6:33 PM
OpenOffice format is just zipped XML. And pretty readable, too
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
It's "Create Team +", it leads to people not in the know to think they can create a team. but you can't, unless you're willing to enter a credit card
 
Shog9
Shog9
uh...
 
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
@KevinB So, we can only tell you about free features? Where is that rule?
 
Shog9
Shog9
pricing is pretty front&center upon clicking that link.
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
@JoeFriend label it as paid in the link itself
 
Shog9
Shog9
6:35 PM
it's not like you enter your team details & then find out it ain't free at the last step.
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
@JoeFriend Personally I'd appreciate a small (paid) annotation
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
one click earlier. One bait earlier.
 
Shog9
Shog9
TEAM$ ............... +$$
 
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
@Mgetz My team drove the entire process of defining the formats and working with the governing standards bodies. DOJ wasn't a focus.
I know you all understand that we provide a free service to 50 million people a month and need to pay for it some how. Stack Overflow has run a deficit until this year. Services like Enterprise and Teams (along with Careers and ads) will be the way that my team can keep investing in the free public service.
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
meh, the fact that the entire left nav was changed to support the Teams feature, the addition of the "Create Team" button just makes it look like it's going to be a free. feature that everyone can use, but it's not.
IMO if you're not participating in teams, it should be no more than the Jobs link is.
Make call outs to it in the advertisement areas or in other ways.
 
Adam Lear
Adam Lear
6:40 PM
Eh, there are other reasons for nav changes. We've pretty much maxed out what we could do with trying to fit all the things into the topbar
 
Catija
Catija
My understanding is that the left nav is part of the site styling unification to move to a simpler network-wide site design... moving the links into the left sidebar is a way to make the page header between the question content and the top bar shorter and still give people what they want.
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
I'm fine with that
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
@KevinB Well, they could add a hint: with costs
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
Give me the one from meta
 
Shog9
Shog9
@KevinB as I said above, this isn't going to be how it ends up.
19 mins ago, by Shog9
The success or fail of this will hing on our willingness to actually build. Not just toss a couple more links in there for Teams, but actually build out the sidebar to be the sort of comprehensive, context-aware navigation that SO has never had.
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
6:41 PM
"Home, Questions, Tags, Users, Jobs, Teams"
 
Shog9
Shog9
 
Catija
Catija
So, is "Home" included for ease of people who aren't aware that the site name takes you to "home" already? ... or is there some future plans for it that aren't implemented at this point?
 
Shog9
Shog9
I like that suggestion quite a bit
 
Joe Friend
Joe Friend
@Catija Both.
 
Shog9
Shog9
9
A: Live: Left nav, new theming and responsiveness

doppelgreenerAdd Help, Meta and Chat links into the sidebar. feature-request The site switcher contains some pretty major site navigation features. I'd classify them as equally important as being able to navigate to users and tags, if not more important or more likely to be used. What if we added these to...

 
Kevin B
Kevin B
6:44 PM
well.. currently "Stack Overflow" link actually takes you to /questions
 
Catija
Catija
@KevinB I'm not talking about that "Stack Overflow".
I'm talking about the logo in the upper left corner.
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
ah
 
Catija
Catija
Nah, it was unclear in how I wrote it... most sites will just say "Questions" - only SO says "Stack Overflow".
... And that's one of the pieces of confusion people have... sort of like the "why is there this "public" section if I don't have a "private" section I'm actually a member of?
@Shog9 I only like half of that.
 
Shog9
Shog9
@Catija the half that puts meta & chat as first-class nav elements, I hope
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
i do like that
 
Catija
Catija
6:48 PM
@Shog9 Yes. I feel the same way you apparently do about the site switcher. I mentioned it to DG in the TL earlier.
 
Shog9
Shog9
I never use the site switcher to actually switch sites. I just type the URL. But I frequently need to switch to/from meta, and on mobile editing URLs to add/remove .meta is fiddly so I use the site switcher (zoomed way in, and still mis-clicking half the time)
I hate it. I hate it so very much.
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
the my communities portion i'm indifferent about, i don't participate anywhere else other than mse, and i get there via my inbox most of the time
 
Catija
Catija
I use the site switcher to get to sites I don't use. Otherwise I have tabs open for the sites I use.
(Main and Meta).
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
anyone else having issues with slack?
 
Catija
Catija
I don't seem to be.
 
Shog9
Shog9
6:53 PM
beyond the general "it's very hard to follow conversations and everyone always talks like they're dropping in notes on the way to A Very Important Meeting" issue?
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
hmm seems my corporate workspace is having issues
 
Shog9
Shog9
Anyway, my point with linking to that particular suggestion is: losing the meta and chat links (or relegating them to tiny links in the footer) is something that happened years ago now to reduce overcrowding in the top bar.
We made a LOT of kinda unfortunate decisions based on that.
For example: no badges link on SO.
How can we not link to badges?!
Bunch of crap is almost impossible for new users to find unless they already know where to look.
Including "log off"
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
hmm... is there a reason there's no keyboard shortcut to get to reviews?
I hide the icon because i dislike the red dot, but in doing so there's no way there short of typing it out
 
Shog9
Shog9
I think the shortcut is for tools?
 
Catija
Catija
@Shog9 Well, it's under the achievements dropdown...
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
6:57 PM
@shog Did you notice that one of my messages above was out of band from the ongoing discussion here? I'd still like to get an opinion from you.
 
Shog9
Shog9
7:09 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ I don't have an opinion. I'll think about it; first impression is that we don't even know if it's a real problem at this point.
That is, if we enable no-rep user comment flagging and get 10 flags on dup comments in a week... That's not really an indication of much. If we get 10 flags on dup comments and they all say "please answer my question, it's urgent!" then that's even less of a comment on the general perception of dup links
If we get 100 every day, that may be worth trying to dig into
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
@JohnDvorak There's a reason I use Office 2003 from time to time
That said, my university provides free Office 2016 licenses to students.
@Catija As a UT employee, you should have access too - go to portal.office.com, type "@austin.utexas.edu" into the Email box and click out, it should redirect you to a UT EID login page, and log in there.
 
Catija
Catija
I am curious about the not a duplicate flag and what the response to it would be... and it might be interesting if there were a way to suggest a user trying to flag with this reason to a help page explaining how to clear a duplicate closure.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Nothing happens.
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
@Catija Try "@austin.eid.utexas.edu".
Or try prefacing both with "someone", e.g. "someone@austin.utexas.edu"
@Catija I figured it out. It seems they've updated the login page. Try typing "someone@austin.utexas.edu" and clicking "Next".
 
Catija
Catija
I'm at work, so I'll look at it later.
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
It will say "taking you to your organization's login page" and direct you to a UT EID login.
@Catija Got it.
@YvetteColomb Caribou ^^
 
Catija
Catija
7:26 PM
Do users who have posts flagged as duplicates get any guidance on how to edit their post to show it's not a duplicate or otherwise dispute the post being flagged as such?
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
iirc they get a different box than everyone else does, with instructions
but i don't remember what those instructions were
 
Catija
Catija
I mean before it's actually closed. Since the duplicate comment disappears once the post is closed as a duplicate, responding to Tim's question needs to be limited to the time between the first duplicate vote and the fifth close vote.
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
@Shog9 IMO such is probable for some specific sites (Stack Overflow) + specific tags. But OK, you need to gather that data 1st.
@Catija Just my concerns:
0
A: Allow New Users To Flag Comments On Their Own Posts

πάντα ῥεῖOne point I am missing from your proposal is, how the new users should be made aware of that feature, and what the purposes of flagging (and its consequences) are. I'm fully with you, that those users should be able to act about blatant rudeness themselves. Though that would require some clear d...

 
Catija
Catija
OK, so if that's the case, then that seems more helpful than flagging a comment.
 
rene
rene
8:07 PM
@AdamLear I'm sorry ...
I'm not going to push my luck with the 6 to 8 weeks joke ... ;)
 
Adam Lear
Adam Lear
Haha, it's not gonna be that long.
(Famous last words)
 
rene
rene
No worries I'll remind you ... later ...
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
And as always, my stuff trying to be constructive at MSO is downvoted :P
I really have no idea what's DV worthy from my answer.
I'm starting to believe it's still because of my suspension and bad persons shouldn't get a voice.
 
Catija
Catija
8:29 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ ... Suspension?
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
Full year
 
Catija
Catija
OK... but that assumes that people know you're suspended and look. I didn't know until you mentioned it just now. Since you've got +100 rep on more than five sites, your SO activity doesn't even show up in your MSE user page. Someone would have to go to your network profile to see that you have 1 rep on SO.
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
They can check my profile, and I'd suspect they frequently do (well, I'm doing so for others)
But yes, feeling being in charge for spam and other flagging triggered by smokey, I've collected quite a number of site joins :3
 
Catija
Catija
But your MSE profile doesn't show your SO account at all... that's my point.
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
Got it ;)
It's buried ...
I am probably suffering from a persecution complex :P ...
 
Catija
Catija
8:39 PM
It happens to lots of us. :)
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
:D
 
Sterling Archer
Sterling Archer
8:49 PM
I spent 6 hours of fever induced debugging to learn that "that's working and it's how you programmed it"
I want to cry
 
rene
rene
sure, go ahead ...
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
9:14 PM
Is rude and profane language allowed for translations at language oriented sites?
0
Q: What does this phrase mean? Wer hat Ihnen denn ins Hirn geschissen?

RenasaurusWhat does this phrase mean? "Wer hat Ihnen denn ins Hirn geschissen?"

meaning
 
Catija
Catija
@πάνταῥεῖ Generally, yes. There's a caveat for questions about rude language.
 
Fabby
Fabby
@πάνταῥεῖ I learned something today.
Also corrected speling eror.
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
@Catija They've been asking for a translation, and I did so :3
 
Fabby
Fabby
@πάνταῥεῖ Hirn is brain?
 
Catija
Catija
@πάνταῥεῖ Are "translate this for me" questions on topic on the German site?
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
9:22 PM
@Fabby Yup!
 
Fabby
Fabby
Danke Schön.
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
@Catija Well, only for exceptional cases.
 
Fabby
Fabby
Is there a different word for "mind" and "brain" in German?
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
@Fabby Mind could also be Gedächtnis IIRC
 
Fabby
Fabby
That's "thoughts"
 
Shmiddty
Shmiddty
9:26 PM
@Shog9 markdown wins!
 
Fabby
Fabby
AFAIK that dichotomy only exists in English and it annoys me as there is no such thing as "the mind" without a brain.
So I don't use the word "mind" at all
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
@Fabby No, thoughts translates to Gedanken
 
Fabby
Fabby
I'm disappointed now...
:D
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
Seems to be complicated to synchronize that brain related stuff from German to English. ;-)
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Moose was wandering about our hotel @Catija @YvetteColomb
 
Catija
Catija
9:30 PM
Stay back! Meece are dangerous!
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Yes, I know
This was shot with a zoom lens
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Are you staying at scandinavia for holidays right now?
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
No, at Denali, Alaska, same latitude as Iceland
 
Fabby
Fabby
@πάνταῥεῖ :D
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You're Swedish?
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
No, I'm American
 
Fabby
Fabby
9:32 PM
ah, sorry
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Ah, cool! Enjoy, and be aware of the Meece ;)
 
Fabby
Fabby
didn'r read that far yet
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
Well, @sonic is fast and some other things. Nationality doesn't really matter :3
 
Fabby
Fabby
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog To be honest, moose would remind me of another kind of shooting than shooting with a lens...
;-)
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
@Fabby You're about the moose bacon. Admit it ;)
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
9:34 PM
Yeah, if a bear starts charging at me, I can outrun it :)
 
Fabby
Fabby
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I can't, but I can still shoot it...
Bears run faster than Vorlons.
Not everyone is a sonic hedgehog!
>:-) >:-) >:-)
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog That sentence is literally taken from "Planet of the Apes - Revolution" :D
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
I actually got up close to a bear, on a bus
 
Fabby
Fabby
Man, I have to visit Alaska!
India first though!
 
Mgetz
Mgetz
9:48 PM
@Fabby When Alaska says it's final frontier... they kinda mean it, it really is mostly wilderness.
 
πάντα ῥεῖ
πάντα ῥεῖ
@Catija Well, we can make them aware about that, as I did with my edited answer now. Thanks for your input!
 
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