Tavern on the Meta

2:00 AM

There are still plans to allow a digital in-profile opt-out for the arbitration clause, right? Would it be a foolish idea for me to wait until that has been implemented so I can opt out of it in the same way I disabled "personalization"?

Journeyman Geek

Yes

No? It's just an email

forest

I don't have my email password anymore lol

I'd have to set a new one and I'm lazy.

Journeyman Geek

Ah

forest

@πάνταῥεῖ Haha what, "vampire" is a bad word now?

hey

"help vampire" and "rep whore" are always bad words, no matter how we love it...

πάντα ῥεῖ

2:06 AM

Sure, as many others are.

forest

O_o

Well I for sure am not falling into political correctness like that. I am a proud rep whore (even if it's not entirely something to be proud of) and a slayer of help vampires.

hey

It even spawned this question

68

Q: What's a less offensive substitute for "rep-whores"?

This is a frequently thrown-around term on Internet forums in general and Stack Exchange specifically. Although it conveys a lot of meaning, I'd much prefer a phrase with a less offensive origin. Urban Dictionary defines a "rep-whore" as: A person who is obsessed with their status on an inte...

Journeyman Geek

Wait. Since when can't we say HV?

forest

Also, "help vampire" and "rep whore" are two words :P

πάντα ῥεῖ

O_o

forest

2:08 AM

@hey Well I can understand that people think "whore" might be referring to sex workers, but the term itself is gender-neutral and doesn't have to be an insult (it all depends on how you use it).

But "vampire"?

Catija

@JourneymanGeek Someone said the other day... somewhere... that they wanted to ban both words when they banned RW...

hey

@forest I'm actually cool with it, but certainly not everyone

Journeyman Geek

@Catija anyone who matters?

forest

New blog post incoming: How to Make Stack Overflow Welcoming to Women, Minorities, and the Undead.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Don't stress too much about these things please.

hey

2:10 AM

like, how many percentages "vampire" is used as a positive word...

forest

Well obviously it's not supposed to be a positive word.

Journeyman Geek

Cause if we're worried over words rather than how people behave in general...

2

forest

But it's better than "worthless leech", and much better than "Indians".

Catija

@JourneymanGeek Jay... probably matters.

:D

πάντα ῥεῖ

Jay is a banned word.

forest

2:11 AM

"banned word" is a pair of banned words.

πάντα ῥεῖ

As well as we can't say A***l innocently anymore.

hey

^ that reminded me of a social game I played that banned "bug" and "buggy"

forest

I don't even know what that refers to.

πάντα ῥεῖ

May

Journeyman Geek

They are not the undead. They merely have a post life crisis

hey

2:15 AM

Close them with crosses...

forest

They are "living impaired".

πάντα ῥεῖ

Good N8

hey

Now I'm feeling lost with the conversation, but it's probably better to leave it like that ._.

Journeyman Geek

@forest that was the term I was trying to remember

forest

I like post life crisis better :P

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

2:40 AM

chaos-emerald-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/48262/… (@Shadow @rene)

Catija

3:07 AM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You around?

After some clarification, I've got the wrong duplicate here but I have a better one if someone wants to propose it:

Considering the update to the question, the appropriate duplicate is: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/145994/… — Catija 1 min ago

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

3:51 AM

@Catija I already voted to close as unclear

Just do it my way:

chaos-emerald-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310525/… (@Shadow @rene)

hey

6:35 AM

Daily pet:

hey

6:49 AM

Based on ~~experiment~~ experience, one could edited 3 posts almost simultaneously before tripping a 5-second cooldown?

Martin James

7:18 AM

@hey Shtap with the cats - just can it :)

Discrete lizard

8:03 AM

@forest Tim seems to imply the plans are there, given his footnote on the screenshot in this post meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310321/… . I'm also playing the waiting game, partially because of the lack of non-repudiation (which you mentioned in an answer), partially because a better option is likely to be implemented, rendering the email obsolete.

hey

opt out by any means...

physical mail, e-mail, contact us, then built-in system when available

Derpy

@forest I was going to wait out this week and see what happens, but seeing as the current implementation of the Tos seems to contradict many points of the original announcements Tim made I am already assuming that option has been silently dropped (or will be rolled out far after the 30 day window expired). As now, I am still thinking about it ... I will be sincere, deleting the account is an option I am considering.

hey

... now I really feel that SE will lost half of its population due to ~~Infin[redacted]~~ new ToS

Derpy

no. That is not what I said.

Or at least, that is not my belief.

In my humble opinion if "SE will lost half of its population" it will be due to how they managed the new ToS transition even before the actual ToS contents.

hey

8:18 AM

well, I also counted the pruning of "non-meaningful activity" users...

Shadow Wizard

I wonder, am I the only one who don't really care about and not really bothered by this whole GDPR stuff?

Derpy

I said it before and I will say it again now, @jmbpiano. I have seen some comments saying that it is lame that so many got angry because of the arbitration clause. To those I should say that as now I am far more annoyed by the way all of the new ToS transition is being handled than by its actual contents. — SPArchaeologist 23 mins ago

hey

@ShadowWizard Not only you, but perhaps it's because I don't care about ToS and Privacy Policy in the first place...

Discrete lizard

@ShadowWizard Note that the GDPR is mostly unrelated with the arbitration clause, other than that some parts of the arbitration clause seem to conflict with the GDPR and that SE adds an arbitration clause around the same time as the GDPR comes in effect.

Shadow Wizard

@Derpy that's... not answering my question... or is it? :/

You mean that unlike me, you're annoyed by this whole thing?

@hey exactly

@Discretelizard wait... what exactly is this "arbitration clause"?? Thought it's part of the GDPR, never bothered looking into it.

Derpy

8:27 AM

@ShadowWizard somehow it is. I meant that even if I am somehow "bothered by this whole GDPR stuff" that is not even the point now. I am far more "bothered" by how this is being handled.

Shadow Wizard

@Derpy technically?

Derpy

yep, @sumelic, most of us probably know that. The problem is that most of us also seem to agree that this had to be "looked into" BEFORE it went live. — SPArchaeologist 13 mins ago

hey

@ShadowWizard it's something that you can opt out from, unlike GDPR

Discrete lizard

@Pavel Typically it means by using the site you agree that, for any legal action or complaint you may file with the court system, you will handle it via an arbiter decided upon by the defendant rather than going to court. Trying to go to court anyway will typically get your case thrown out if you have agreed to arbitration. It's considered a bad practice, ethically (and some argue that it is not legal), but it's still very popular because it saves a LOT of time and money for companies that deal with legal action a lot. — TylerH May 2 at 21:13

Derpy

@ShadowWizard "YOU AGREE THAT YOU WAIVE YOUR ABILITY TO SUE US OR TAKE PART IN ANY CLASS ACTION" mostly (all caps because they seem to like it a lot...)

Discrete lizard

8:30 AM

@ShadowWizard Above comment explains the basics.

Derpy

@Discretelizard you forgot the .ToUppercase() call

Discrete lizard

@Derpy IANAL.

That should be sufficient

Shadow Wizard

So in plain words it means we agree to never sue SE for privacy issues it might have?

Derpy

jokes aside, that would be a little oversimplified. Read the section about mandatory arbitration in the ToS.

It also means that any legal dispute you may have would not be handled by an actual judge but by a private company chosen and paid by SE (again, oversimplifying to get you to the point. Please, read the actual ToS)

The above point alone should explain why most feel like this in general is a unethical and somehow shady tactic.

Discrete lizard

@ShadowWizard Sort of, you agree that all legal conflicts will be handled by the arbitration court specified in the ToS. This means that in particular, class action suits aren't possible. So, if e.g. a mass data leak is caused by SE, making a single case with a large number of users who are damaged as a result will be prevented by the arbitration process.

Shadow Wizard

8:39 AM

Can't see any reason to delve into this to be honest.

Not going to sue SE, not going to dig for cookies or stuff about me they might share.

hey

and that's the line between those who care (of suing) and those who don't...

Shadow Wizard

Yup

Discrete lizard

Anyway, a lot of users don't really like this clause and hence want to opt-out of it. This has no disadvantage (in theory): opting out gives you the option of using arbitration instead of being forced.

Derpy

and there start the mess.

first you had to send a snail mail. Then you had the option to mail Team(at)stackexchange... until the ToS changed the address to legal(at). Tim quickly confirm that that is the new address to use... only to have Nick rectify that a day later and point out that the old one is the real one. They mention a form based opt out option, but it is unclear if they will be able to provide it anytime soon (or if it is even being considered). Some say that the opt out mail has only to reference your account, the ToS say you need to disclose your name. And so on.

I am felling sad for Tim, Nick and the others.

they are probably going to be the mudguards in all this... and they probably don't deserve that.

oh well, rant of the day done.

Back to lurking in the RPG room I am.

user5389107

9:08 AM

@Derpy I think the primary contention is that they didn't anticipate such blowback to the arbitration clause

And are now scrambling to try and make something work to placate the legions of users that are upset

rene

\0 @Magisch ;)

hey

I can ping @Magisch again \o/

John Dvorak

@Magisch In which case it's bad time to increase the amount of ads.

Magisch

@JohnDvorak You don't know their financials. They might not have a choice

hey

and the latest blog about Teams... I didn't read it...

John Dvorak

9:12 AM

Like they didn't have a choice but to add an arbitration clause to their TOS

Magisch

@JohnDvorak Do you think anyone over there is salivating over more ads or forced arbitration?

I think these are business necessities

Derpy

Depends: actual developers or you include also the other departments?

Because that is also one of the other issues I have with this. The actual devs are the one who now have to defend this.

Magisch

I'm pretty sure the people we interact with don't like this a lot more then we do, but they also don't have a choice

John Dvorak

@Magisch no, I accept the explanation that they "had to".

Magisch

On a side note of this I still find the "sponsoring that fine manual" title really adorable

idk why it just feels nice to read

Journeyman Geek

9:18 AM

@Magisch good to be able to ping ya again

Magisch

... I wasn't unpingable before

just harder to ping :p

hey

@Magisch STFM!

hey

9:34 AM

@SmokeDetector FR: only show "answer" box on the last page when it's over 30 answers...

Shadow Wizard

Welcome back @Magi!

How you feel to be yourself again?

Wonder if @Yve will also be back at some point.... and @Jeremy...

hey

and @Telkitty... and ~~@bro @Sally @soup~~ @NormalHuman...

Derpy

I fear that the kitty is lost...

Shadow Wizard

@Tel is lost cause, I'm afraid. Looks like she won't be back....

Derpy

deleted account, remember?

Shadow Wizard

9:43 AM

@Norm is also lost cause, he won't get back to his original (?) name.... but he's here, no? Hmm.... wait....

huh.... We lost him too???

Why did he delete his account this time?

hey

no one knows, as usual

Shadow Wizard

@Derpy new account can be created and same name chosen, deleted account doesn't mean much... only the intentions of the person behind it.

hey

I noticed he was still there on some meta sites

Journeyman Geek

He's arround

I think he's on the assembly

Also, with the drama around the Arbitration clause and other legal things...

CMs probably don't have a first hand understanding of the legal issues. Legal dosen't have a first hand understanding of the community, even folks who're familiar with the community might have been surprised by aspects of things.

(apologies to any CMs who are lawyers by trade ;) )

hey

10:09 AM

checking the account, he was last seen on Anime.SE 1 hour ago o_O

Journeyman Geek

Looks like they need to turn on the CJK filters again

Derpy

@ShadowWizard If she deleted the account instead of just anonymizing it... that is probably a good indicator she doesn't really want to have anything to do with SE anymore

hey

... only on MSE

Catija

11:41 AM

Welcome back @Magisch 😀

rene

→ 43 messages moved to Chimney

Magisch

@Catija Hey cat

I was here the whole time just in disguise :D

Mgetz

@Magisch are you saying you pulled off a disappearing act!?

Catija

@Magisch good disguise 😉

Derpy

yesterday, by user5389107

you doth qoute my old name

Journeyman Geek

12:08 PM

He was under a box

rene

12:22 PM

Is there an option to tell Windows I don't want to enroll my fingers? Don't tell me to use Ubuntu instead ...

Mgetz

@rene pretty sure you can disable that, it was bugging me to set a pin and I went in and told it to go away

rene

OK

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek I was in the overful \hbox

Derpy

a second mail about the ToS update? is this because of my two separate accounts or it is round two?

Text is different.

Journeyman Geek

the email should have your username on it

Derpy

12:25 PM

only the second one I received does specify an username

rene

@Derpy I had multiple as well: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/89?m=6972364#6972364

Based on the emails I received I have 3 socks ...

Magisch

flowers wear socks now

what has this world come to

Derpy

@rene speaking of which, do you need to opt out separately for every account you own? Turns managing sock to improve site quality in another annoyance.

oh.

rene

@Derpy well, I opted out for my main account. I go into arbitration with the others. I like to keep all options open ...

Derpy

Today is Tiara day.

so...

let's abuse that to my own gain.

here, free (Diamond) Tiara for the room

Magisch

12:31 PM

What's the "gain" in this?

Derpy

that I have an excuse to post a pony picture

also, reminder

Tomorrow is Towel Day

please, remember to change the room topic to "MY GOD, IT'S FULL OF STARS AND TOWELS"

Mgetz

@Derpy needs more Hitchhiker's guide jokes, because Mr. Hankey jokes aren't exactly room appropriate

Derpy

12:57 PM

had to google up this one, but I don't get how South Park is involved in this.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Formatting Sandbox by tripleee on meta.SE

hey

şd tpu

Mgetz

1:19 PM

@TimPost regardless of how bad your GDPR day might be going at least you're not in gdprhallofshame.com

Magisch

That site won't load for me

Mgetz

@Magisch give it time it got posted to hacker news and is under load

Tim Post

Yeah, it's got the cloud flare sad face

Magisch

Tim, can you disclose who came up with the adorable title for that ad post?

It's an amazing title :3

Mgetz

@TimPost archive.li/2018.05.24-124106/http://gdprhallofshame.com

And the hackernews thread news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17143200

some companies (Instapaper) are actively engaging on the issue

but I suspect they won't be the only ones temporarily blocking europe starting today

Derpy

1:57 PM

shall we send in a picture of our arbitration clause and links to the related meta posts? -_-'

at least we are not alone

Mgetz

2:11 PM

@Derpy StackExchange is still better prepared than some did you see the lightbulb company?

Tim Post

I should hire myself out by the hour .. "Blocked the EU and need a punching bag to satisfy the angry mob for a few days? My rates start at $1500 / hourly."

Mgetz

@TimPost nah just sell them stackoverflow teams that you'll moderate that they can use as a meta to talk to their customers

hey

Apr 25 at 20:07, by user315433

> GDPR meeting: "No Nick, we can't just ban all the European IPs" https://pic.twitter.com/pnI4lAZxjX -- Nick Craver at 6:00 PM - 11 Apr 2018

Magisch

2:35 PM

@TimPost You're doing fine though, considering how much vitriol you've absorbed these last days

How do you manage to not go insane?

You seem to be a magnet for people to air their grievances towards

Journeyman Geek

twitter suggests vast amounts of caffeine.

John Dvorak

That's great, because I've just dumped a can of "ice coffee" into me and I'm about to dump another.

Derpy

@JourneymanGeek or the next tweet post will be a picture of him wearing a yellow suit, carrying a katana and with a final message "goodbye, I have to go to meet my boss now"

Journeyman Geek

is it odd that the mental image of me includes the mug and the hat?

hey

sorry, i'm imagining yellow duck suit instead.

Derpy

2:47 PM

that would be infinite

Mgetz

2:58 PM

@Derpy Now I'm imagining them as a member of a song and dance team called the 'gemtones'

John Dvorak

being an intentional typo for gemstones?

Derpy

@Mgetz so, Shog is Garnet, balpha is Amethyst and Grace would be Pearl?

Mgetz

@JohnDvorak Hadn't thought of that, just band names of that sort tend to follow that pattern

@Derpy No idea

John Dvorak

We already have beetles and monkees

gemtones is brilliant

Derpy

influenced by the "ponytones" dare I say?

Mgetz

3:04 PM

@Derpy only after the fact

SmokeDetector

3:26 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer, username similar to website in answer: Question in reading the Quran and tajweed for beginner by quranteaching on islam.SE

Sterling Archer

14

A: Travel SE Isn’t Very Welcoming. It’s Time for That to Change

Some guidelines I'd love to see follow below. I know I'm guilty for some of them too, when I'm in a hurry, but maybe we can call people out for it when we see it. I don't think we can get them implemented in code, but we could call people out for not following: If you close vote a question fr...

this is an... interesting moderator answer

is travel.se very anti-downvote/close vote?

Catija

Wow. That's somewhat surprising to me.

Kevin B

i can't downvote that enough

hey

they want happy users, literally. they also like trivia questions. (whether it's correlated or not, I don't know)

Catija

Oh, goodie... always fun to see your site's comment policy misrepresented and dragged through the mud.

Sterling Archer

3:37 PM

If it works for them more power to them, but 9/10 instances of "Downvoter, why u downvote" never ends well or is just never answered

The traffic to the site probably makes a huge difference as well, smaller communities can adopt these trends, but it doesn't scale

Bart

@SterlingArcher sit back, relax, and see how that works out for them

Catija

So, the irony for me was that I'd just read this on MSO:

1

Q: Mentor & encourage new users? Really?

I got this question on the review queues. I can clearly see that the question should be closed, but... We've just been told that we should be nicer to new users. This post was by a newb with a rep of 1 -- a new user. I don't want to close salvageable posts by new community members. I'd rather ju...

discussion

Sterling Archer

@Bart oh ill probably never visit that site again (not related to the question)

Magisch

@SterlingArcher That's either sarcasm or in need of CM intervention

Catija

I don't see how it could be sarcasm.

hey

3:45 PM

@Magisch nope, not sarcasm, totally serious just like other answers. <- this is not sarcasm either

Sterling Archer

How come it needs CM intervention?

Catija

It sort of subverts the way the site is supposed to work.

Sites are absolutely allowed to have their own policies about things. And if that's how they want to do things, I guess that's OK... but telling people when to vote or how to vote really... sort of twinges for me.

rene

Go get'm @Bart ...

Sterling Archer

@Catija well, the answer expresses how it should be, which is opinionated. Is a CM required to tell a mod they can't express opinion?

Catija

@SterlingArcher I don't see how Don't dare downvote a post without a comment. Please! Is expressing an opinion. It's a command.

Sterling Archer

3:53 PM

It's a strong opinion? lol

Catija

And shaming people: If you close vote a question from a newbie without a comment, shame on you.

Kevin B

eh, people with diamonds next to their name should be rather clear imo when they're expressing an opinion and not policy.

Bart

@rene at the moment I'd better stay away from anything which may cause me to get worked up. I'm not in a great mood :D

hey

Anyway, I don't really care about that meta posts since Mods can't enforce it anyway. (feeling happy finding this closed, -4 question)

Magisch

@SterlingArcher It directly contradicts network wide policy

Moderators aren't supposed to be able to tell people off for properly using their downvotes and closevotes

Doing that is blatant mod abuse

Catija

3:58 PM

That's a bit strong, I think... but I understand where you're coming from.

Bart

@Catija Strong? STRONG?!? I demand pitchforks and sharpened sticks and a decently sized attack trout!

hey

Well, some of us are coming from SO where we're used to that strictness~

rene

@Bart either that are take an easier target to bully ;)

Catija

Attack trout??? And here I am with only a guppy.

Bart

Mgetz

3:59 PM

@Bart I was literally just about to link that youtube

Tim Post

What a coddinghorror.

Mgetz

monty python - fish dance

►

Catija

Thank you, Porkchat.

hey

(darn, it doesn't include Whack!)

Tim Post

Man, the seafood is great in this tavern.

Bart

4:02 PM

You're welcome

Catija

I'm not allowed raw seafood right now... can I get something cooked?

Sterling Archer

Just don't eat rock crabs, they're extremely poisonous and have 2 different types of toxins

Sterling Archer

4:13 PM

Um

Catija

Ewww?

Kevin B

...

Catija

→ 2 messages moved to Chimney

Shadow Wizard

4:38 PM

amazing

Third time at least he's caught, and still trying to play it innocent.

hey

screenshot for plebs? :(

πάντα ῥεῖ

Seen such cases earlier here.

Trying even to convince us it must have been a bug.

Magisch

coincidences, I'm sure

πάντα ῥεῖ

Probably :-D

hey

@Magisch victim of yours?

πάντα ῥεῖ

4:49 PM

victim is probably the wrong word.

Magisch

@hey nah, I stopped that pursuit a while ago

hey

@πάνταῥεῖ maybe... otherwise I'm thinking of "trophy hunt"...

anyway, is this question leaking a screenshot of mod tools... acceptable?

πάντα ῥεῖ

static1.squarespace.com/static/51b3dc8ee4b051b96ceb10de/t/…

hey

@hey nvm, it's not that critical for public to know how that tool works...

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: Como fazer um dump de um banco de dados MySQL com PHP? by Startinn on pt.stackoverflow.com

Mgetz

5:16 PM

So fun irregularity that came up elsewhere: If a user no longer uses the email associated to their account here can they file a GDPR complaint if they didn't get any notifications about TOS changes etc?

in Lounge<C++> on Stack Overflow Chat, 13 mins ago, by Mysticial

Magisch

Good question

Mgetz

I think it's a catch 22 because I don't think you can send them an email to see if their email is live. I think the most you can do is prompt them to update it on the site itself.

hey

@Mgetz deja vu...

Magisch

If SE has no PII on the user to identify them to notify them ...

then they have no PII on the user

and thus, no obligation

Mgetz

@Magisch I'd say that's up for debate, they have PI definitely

Magisch

5:20 PM

Is personal information still personal information if you can't associate it with a person?

no

πάντα ῥεῖ

At least those moderator messages appear at your inbox too. I don't know if its the same in the iOS app, though.

Mgetz

@Magisch Stack definitely has IP and username, and I'd argue enough action analytics that it counts as PI

but that's my opinion

Magisch

IP is only PI if you can associate it with a natural person directly ... as far as I know

still not a lawyer remember

Mgetz

@Magisch The training I got (from a super conservative US multinational so it may be over playing it) was that PII is stuff that on its own can identify the user (email, name, and so forth), PI is anything that in combination can be used to identify the user

hey

And I think in addition to email, SE also needs to send info on ToS change to everyone's inbox, just in case those mobile app users who lost their email...

πάντα ῥεῖ

5:48 PM

Could be a link ...

Shadow Wizard

@Mgetz they can change their email in the edit profile page, it's trivial.

Also suspension notice should arrive to SE inbox, not only email, so one can't really miss it.

Though not in the app.

Mgetz

@ShadowWizard and yet the user in the image above...

Shadow Wizard

So they must use a browser to see the suspension message.

@Mgetz I'm pretty sure he's well aware of what he has done and trying to move around the suspension by playing innocent.

"Look what they did to me! I didn't do anything! Now lift the wrong suspension plz"

Mgetz

@ShadowWizard I was trying to assume positive intent

hey

@ShadowWizard I believe it happened the same before, also on MSE

Shadow Wizard

6:01 PM

@Mgetz well, I also sometimes, but not in this case.

e.g. the Drupal saga was different.

hey

The JavaScript chat room guy?

Mgetz

I'm not even going to ask what happened there

Kevin B

wha

πάντα ῥεῖ

@ShadowWizard I was afraid that doesn't work in the app.

@hey As you're a committed mobile user, that would be worth a FR (but there's probably one already)

Mgetz

8

Q: Alert users of question ban on iOS before asking a new question

When using the web version of Stack Exchange, if a user has reached their account's question limit, (aka: their account has been question banned), they will see an error message before they can type and submit their question. The iOS app should follow this behavior, rather than informing the u...

feature-request ios-app asking-questions post-ban

πάντα ῥεῖ

6:12 PM

@Mgetz Nah, I meant the simple inbox notifications.

Mgetz

12

Q: Show all inbox items (notifications) in app

The SE app currently only shows some inbox items: Answers Comments Chats When I see those I assume I'm all caught up, but it turns out there are more on the web which aren't displayed in the app: Bounty expiration Elections Edits on your own posts Maybe others? I was about to tag this bug...