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00:00 - 22:0022:00 - 00:00

12:36 AM
I'm 25K now!!! Now I have nothing to look forward to until 100K now.
erm morning.
still too sleepy
@Catija Too bad they stopped giving out unicorn paintings to those with 200k+ rep
1:27 AM
@Catija alas
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog 0_0
there's supposed to be a 250K swag tier
Apparently there's also a 1 m swag tier.
Aka Jon Skeet?
Even at my best... that... could take a while
1:48 AM
@SmokeDetector naa-
1:58 AM
@Catija pretty sure that's "go to HQ and be on a podcast and other cool things"
Sounds good to me :D
@ArtOfCode I'd find that mildly terrifying XD
6:14 AM
"we are here to create an artifact that will help the next person who has that question" is a fundamental flaw of the description of the site, that should be a side effect, not the goal. — Nick Larsen ♦ Apr 28 at 20:52
can somebody else please spare a delete vote and purge this heresy?
But leaving it there lets the world see what people think of it?
I'm afraid deleting that will count as "censoring"...
heresy is downvoted not deleted... odd that an employee does not know the site goals..
6:26 AM
I only regret that the answer forgot a disclaimer "This is personal view, not SE's view", but the OP doesn't seem to get that hint even after the comment storms...
Not everyone is aware of 'hats'
also erm
6:45 AM
Yo @Journey o/
Can we add 404 page link in "parent user" section of chat profile page ?
@Catija That's exactly how 30, 40, 50, and 60 felt.
I am guessing 70, 80, and 90 will be similar
7:02 AM
@TravisJ heh
I actually stopped caring about rep until I got close to 100k on SU
and I focus on interesting problems over trying to get on the rep train anyway
For a decent amount of time (years) I would try to just do 1k a month-ish, so that my x years y months translated to xyk rep. 6 years, 6 months, would be 66k rep. I kind of dropped off though, only at 60k.
I used to do one answer a day
I would do like 20 in a week and then just go afk for the rest of the month :P
Can't really answer everything anymore though.
I mean, you could, but then you have to spend 10 times as much time arguing about who should answer what, what should go where, why the freaking cookie jar has peanuts in it and the peanut butter got made with almonds, etc. etc.
well the one answer a day had some advantages - the time spent per question could be maximised (not that all my high scoring answers were... well thought of), and It worked ?
@TravisJ that's totally meta though
and SE in some respects
I think that too much meta has spilled into the main sites.
7:13 AM
@JourneymanGeek Our govt. here in the UK promotes 'Five a day'
It's because I mentioned cookies, isn't it.
7:43 AM
The more you answer, the less you answer because you realized you have answered that and VtC as dupe instead...
@hey oh
erm. I'm not a fan of closing as dupe on meta.
At least not as fast as some folk
I see meta is being a bit of a helpdesk type thing too, and if we're closing stuff too fast, it seems slightly user hostile
@hey Is that why you haven't answered for 2 and a half years? :P
I'll take the rep hit if stuff gets nuked later, but I'd rather stuff gets answered unless its a complete dupe
Meanwhile, I have a userscript request to check if the question I'm currently reading is currently on HNQ. Can use the unofficial HNQ API. Not sure if I should request it on MSE or StackApp...
or probably I should learn how userscript works and how JavaScript works...
Maybe privileges should be tied to some sort of sliding window of reputation to make sure that users remain up to date on what the current environment of the sites are.
7:51 AM
shakes a fist at JohnT
(I got that reference)
You'd need to know he was 1 position above me on the SU rep standings ;p
The guy that always finds odd bugs and posts them on meta? Wrong John?
wrong John
(I missed that reference)
7:52 AM
@JourneymanGeek well, at one time, I took a crusade to read all SE Android app open reports and s ... and some were dupes though...
Early user who went up to 100K on SU and vanished
Well the remark still stands :D
(and then the development's halted ._.)
ah ya
tbh, in my opinion that's kind of one of the weak points of SE as an organisation :(
There's a lot of projects that got started, then... folk seemingly lost interest
I think the people with the most talent got all tied into ensuring the site scaled well.
7:56 AM
was that Jeff?
Since the site is constantly scaling, the talent drain into that sector is immense.
What do I know though, that is pure conjecture. Could be way off.
It might be entirely unfair but I think the focus went from "being focused on building the core product" to "being focused on side products"
some of which made money (careers) but slightly hurt the core product in terms of attention
The big advantage they had in the early years is they were laser focused on the QA platform
This is mostly conjecture of course
and me still poking for fun at SOTV...
@hey which comes into "Its done, what next?"
and side projects
I don't even remember SOTV
@hey or realising that most devs, and even random computery types who don't code are text based entities.
@hey Shimmer?
8:25 AM
6 messages moved to Chimney
8:55 AM
meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310422/… the temptation to answer yes, then fill it with a ton of non breaking spaces is tempting.
Setting up a bad example that would be. The doings of their masters people watch and obey.
9:10 AM
A: Are we abusing our delete votes on Meta?

Shog9I took a look at the posts with pending delete votes here (~19 answers) and those that've been deleted by vote at some point (20 answers). For the most part, we're not actually deleting anything of value. And of course, 10K users can verify this by checking the list of recently-deleted posts no...

9:31 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer: Were the Bavarian Illuminati actually Luciferians? by Dr Oboite on philosophy.SE
@SmokeDetector Illuminati recruitment in the public. If it's so easy to join like that...
@hey illuminati recruitment would be far less noticeable than that..
Disguising your infrastructure as a group of fans of a kids-show... now that would be brilliant.
I flagged that as spam anyways.
9:45 AM
you could probably even post you secret messages in plain sight on a public forum and chat site disguised as obscure references to a show and no one would notice.
9:56 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Are there programs to create and edit SVG animations? by user201117 on superuser.com
10:13 AM
it is just me or the room has gotten a lot more... silent? since the whole "be nice - third time is a charm" thing?
without the kitty and SE news ticker? probably.
but it's a slow Monday for me anyway...
What happened to @bro BTW?
just casually deleted his MSE account as usual
(real reason unknown)
10:19 AM
Hmm, I miss TK, and yve's leaving the room as soon I appear. :-/
Turned out Tavern is bleak without cats...
And chickens ...
I see a dark wind blowing thru...
I see days neither fun or free...
I see a future caused by you...
I see a path not meant to be....
Meme overflow ...
I’m Tibetan, I’m Buddhist and I’m the Dalai Lama, but if I emphasize these differences it sets me apart and raises barriers with other people. What we need to do is to pay more attention to the ways in which we are the same as other people.
10:37 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Linked punctuation in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer: Computer will not turn on unless I hold the power button down by emulen on superuser.com
[:6966222] Body - Position 215-228: cputemper.com
Body - Position 230-261: rel="nofollow noreferrer">.</a>
@SmokeDetector tpu-
10:52 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad NS for domain in answer: How do I play m3u8 files? by angiepuller on askubuntu.com
11:11 AM
@πάνταῥεῖ got closed in area51 area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/109898/…
LOL, something as expected of course
it's already Caturday?
@Derpy it's always Caturday
11:28 AM
waiting for updates...
@Derpy do they make the keyboard more comfy?
@Derpy I am afraid we're back to this point
if you prefer, I can always replace the cats with candy pastel color ponies
12:06 PM
@Derpy The Russian Blue Screen Of Death?
12:28 PM
@MartinJames groan
1:01 PM
@gnat yes, do that.
2:07 PM
This is too silent...
The tavern is deserted.. no drinks

 The SO Tavern (Free Snacks)

Room 5 was frozen for inactivity even though it was once an ac...
The future of this room...
Am I the only one that things that should be banned from gold badges?
The reason being it gives users with said badges waaaaay too much power
2:17 PM
Because of the frequency of the tag they probably mean.
Q: Should gold tag badges in required tags on meta provide insta-close-dupe functionality?

Adam DavisI am, apparently, one of 12 people with the gold tag badge for feature-request and one of 39 people with the gold tag badge for discussion here on meta.se. I hadn't realized this until I cast a close as duplicate vote, then was shocked (and awed) by the power unleashed. Unicorns came from everyw...

But I'm more curious about the "waaaay too much power" assertion
you get ... the normal amount of power for a gold badge
dup closing and reopening
once per question
@Mgetz I like my power. Specially if I can abuse it ...
May 10 at 12:53, by Derpy
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Dupehammer in . Don't tell me that wouldn't make sense to you?
@Shog9 Exactly that
I don't think required tags should allow dupe hammer or any other mod functionality
2:21 PM
@Shog9 Because there is no such thing as expertise in
so having the power to say something is an instant dupe is a bit overboard
ancillary tags... potentially but not the required tags for anyone not staff
and make it two since I to assumed the badge power was meant to reward expertise in a field.
I feel like you're just jealous of my gold discussion badge
2:23 PM
Expertise in discussion...
and even then I'd probably limit that power to
@Mgetz Why not? Mediation is a skill.
@Shog9 You feel incorrectly Padawan, I could care less about your badge
Really, Shog? Like you wouldn't be able to do the same without the badge -_-'
I'm more concerned about people shooting first and looking later based on titles
2:24 PM
@Mgetz but you're specifically concerned about people with gold discussion badges doing that.
I'm more concerned about people who request gold-badger to dupehammer something...
@Shog9 Given that I don't know off the top of my head the other required tags, we'll go with yes for now. I think it would have to be a tag by tag thing anyway. If someone is really familiar with they should be able to dupe.
@Derpy Well, if you wanna go that route... I'm not limited by the restrictions of gold badge closing. I can close any question for any reason with a single vote, repeatedly if I wish to. That's a lot more power to abuse than what gold badge holders get.
@Shog9 We should give you special unicorn pony closing powers next April 1st
@Mgetz so what makes [discussion] special?
2:27 PM
@Shog9 Mostly the fact that it's so generic as to be on the vast majority of questions.
and don't give me the "no experts in this tag" thing again, everyone says that about every tag they're not particularly active in - have you seen the burninate requests on meta SO?
@Shog9 Nope but I'm not calling for it to be burninated
if you're gonna argue that [discussion] is so generic as to be meaningless, then you're arguing for getting rid of the tag - which is a big deal, so don't half-ass it.
@Shog9 I didn't say it was meaningless?
if you're not arguing for that, then be specific about the problem you're seeing
because up to now, your only argument has been...
7 mins ago, by Mgetz
@Shog9 Because there is no such thing as expertise in
2:29 PM
counter question, please explain why a gold badge owner gets the closure power
@Shog9 I'm just going to shut up, it's clear at this point I've already lost
...which, again, I've seen folks make this same argument for countless technologies on SO proper, and it always just means they can't be bothered to learn anything about the topic and are annoyed that other people might be experts in it.
Something that I didn't even care to win
If you've seen abuse, then you should be able to talk about it.
You can't be in an expert in discussion. Demonstrated daily on your local meta ...
2:30 PM
If you're just tossing out the specter of abuse because you saw a tag and - with no research - decided that no one could possibly be more knowledgeable than yourself... Then go do that research.
@Shog9 I never said I saw abuse
@Mgetz you said and I quote, "it gives users with said badges waaaaay too much power"
@Derpy that's why tag score is not a good indicator for expertise. Answering 1000 basic questions and getting 1 upvote each will get a gold badge too.
@hey still up to the hammer if they honor the request....
now, if they weren't abusing that power, surely it wouldn't be "waaaaay too much" power?
it'd be... "a sufficient amount of power for the work that they do"
2:31 PM
@Shog9 I still believe that to be true, as it allows them to shoot first and ask questions later based on title.
Moreover it prevents review of that close vote
or perhaps even, "more power than non-badge holders get, but still less than what they would need to cause trouble"
so the implication of your statement is that there is abuse
@Mgetz re-open vote in that case
Regardless I'm done with this conversation
why would you bring this up if you hadn't observed abuse?
@rene the hammer will ham the doer
2:33 PM
if you say so ..
is there even a hypothetical scenario in which the badge would allow untoward behavior in a way that doesn't apply to every other tag?
@Shog9 I have on multiple other sites, even others in this room have mentioned times they've had to badger gold badge holder to undupe things
I'm not allowed to make mistakes?
certain people in this room badger gold badge holders to do everything... That's not necessarily a commentary on the badge holders so much as it is on the badgers.
@rene Say that to the mods too :)
2:34 PM
@rene clearly I already have, I said something
yes, but we like the discussion
@rene This wasn't a discussion it was
If you have 1500 rep you can add that tag to your question.
Expect Shog9 to be the first gold badge holder for that tag ...
@rene I don't on meta anymore due to the split, and It'll get immediately ed
Yep, happy to help
3:14 PM
SE identity crisis, or what?
incredibly entertaining, at any rate /popcorn
With salt?
And loads of butter
@Shog9 gold badge badgers... hmmm
Do they get a special day like Groundhogs?
It will probably be a public shaming, if anything. Don't have high expectations
3:31 PM
2 hours later…
Maybe you should check the question and proposed duplicate
5:32 PM
I am not always trusting @gnat's ubiquitous dupe proposals.
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer: What would be a suitable aircraft for a short haul freight forwarding business? by Greg on aviation.SE
@πάνταῥεῖ Well, me and three other users did
What's the reason you need to amplify so much? This isn't the MSECVR.
@πάνταῥεῖ [:6967988] Recorded answer as an NAA in metasmoke.
@SmokeDetector tpu-
6:39 PM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with a link in answer, blacklisted website in answer: How to download all YouTube playlists as .csv by Fred Green on webapps.SE
@rene Honestly this whole thing left a bitter taste in my mouth. I understand what shog was asking but it came across as inquisitorial and not thought provoking.
@SmokeDetector tpu-
@Mgetz sure. Keep in mind the floating head is doing this debating stuff for a living so he tends to be pretty good at it. This does mean that if you bring something to the table you need your back covered with facts. Just give it retry if you have some evidence. I hammered plenty of stuff both on MSE and MSO so my profile is a good start to collect "abuse" cases.
Or at least conflict of interest
@rene I'd consider what I said to shog to be feedback: focus on getting the other person to think about it instead of debating it.
I don't expect shog9 needs us to give him something to think about ;)
6:54 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ hence why I said feedback instead of seeing it as anything else... honestly I feel like I hit him with it before he had his coffee
totally possible. Maybe try again on Friday, during Happy Hour ..
@rene They allow shog to drink... oh my
You should be a bit more emphatic with people before they had their 1st coffee in the morning. Believe me, I am an expert on drugs.
6:58 PM
@Mgetz You say "allow" like he needs permission.
@Catija Well the concern would be the bottle would never leave his desk otherwise ;p
How do you drink from a bottle that never leaves a desk?
@rene I applaud your literalness
@rene Clearly you're unaware of straws.
Not all beverages go well through a straw ...
7:01 PM
Alcohol goes just fine.
That's a myth
You can guess now who was addressed :3
7:14 PM
!!/sangria shadowwiz
@πάνταῥεῖ No such command 'sangria'.
!!/tweet something
@ShadowWizard No such command 'tweet'.
But it was a lie, I'm afraid. @πάνταῥεῖ
No real Sangria. :D
I'm too lazy to make the real one.
Didn't matter, I meant that tweet before of course.
7:19 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ oh lol
About sexism? I had a feeling it will draw you somehow. ;)
I am conscious enough to avoid such blunt references. :3
Also the twitter universe is a subtle thing. I am so happy to be a follower of my holiness the Dalai Lama since today. That is seriously honest, I'd never be sarcastic about my true beliefs.
Whatever sails your boat! :D
Well, folks we're software engineers. Beyond we've managed to provide compilers in international language flavors, the next thing is the personalized compiler for any minority you can think about: twitter.com/aprilwensel/status/998644738646466560
I am smelling BIG MONEY here!
@ShadowWizard The important thing is, the boat sails:
'belief - love - hope' tryptichon acrylic on canvas 2002
7:37 PM
@Mgetz This is definitely true
FWIW, I wasn't trying to put you down, but rather give you the tools to make an effective argument.
@Shog9 I figured, text isn't always a good medium for that reason. It's so easy to be misunderstood.
As illustrated by the existing FR, this has come up before; I'm aware of the concern, and it's something I've tried to keep an eye on. But... as a general rule, I don't like fear-driven feature design. I like to see evidence of problems, or similar problems, or even a well-described hypothetical; it makes it much easier to design effective mitigation strategies.
I will admit that I've found occasionally that (on the surface) it seems really easy to get gold badges for the required meta tags... That said, I don't know that very many people actually have them... and since undoing the dupe is as easy as doing it (if the dupe hammer wielder agrees)... it's not overly problematic.
"this could somehow go horribly wrong" leads to locking down everyone's abilities.
It is, IMHO, why we ended up with "vote-to-close" instead of a more effective system: folks are more readily placated by a system that seems hard to abuse rather than one which is actually not abused.
I'm pretty sure there are more diamond users than gold badge dupe voters on MSE... though, probably less true on SO.
7:42 PM
only 25 gold badges on MSO
gold tag badges, that is
@Shog9 I concur on fear driven design being bad. I wouldn't want a knee-jerk reaction. Rather I'd want to have staff get data and see if there is an issue. If it affects MSO or just other meta sites etc.
I was thinking of actual SO. But on MSO, I'm guessing that a few of those are held by mods or staff, too.
@Shog9 You badger you ;)
@Catija 8/19 for [discussion], 2/5 for [support], 1/1 for [feature-request]
Yeah, so that's about half. :)
7:44 PM
@Mgetz You imply there's an issue with abusive usage of the privilege in 1st place?
@πάνταῥεῖ I believe there is the potential for abuse, something very different. Also something that would require data on before acting
Well, there's a portion at the be nice policy saying: "Assume good intend ...".
@Shog9 There is a joke here about community abusing it's powers ;p
That's not a joke, but an issue :3
7:50 PM
How is it an issue? Community dupe closures happen when the OP agrees that the question is a dupe.
not in this case
Then what does it mean?
means it's a lazy query
UserId is -1 when multiple users voted - so it was dup-hammered, but only after someone else voted to close it
That folds a pattern
So... if I dupe vote something and then someone hammers it, it gets attributed to Community rather than that someone?
7:53 PM
A: How can we downvote the use of the mighty Mjölnir?

Shog9You can't downvote the use of a close vote. That'd be some kind of meta-voting that doesn't really exist here. You can reopen improperly closed questions though. And you should! This is trivial to track (indeed, you can find evidence of such events in the public data dumps), and also serves to c...

More discussion ^
OP's inferring as Community themselves.
Or... what about in cases where the dupe hammer vote doesn't go to the same post as initially suggested?
Apparently SQL Server has support for parsing JSON now... So I'll leave answering all of these questions as an exercise for the reader.
or @ShadowWizard, if he feels like seeing his true stats
7:56 PM
Anyways I don't see how these details make the or tags special regarding the mjölnir privilege.
well, feature-request is special because on MSO only one person has a gold tag badge for it, and they're known to be reckless with their powers.
So who can say how many worthy features have been squelched due to careless badge-closing? Not me.
I am almost believing if there's any potential to abuse the site features, you'll find some psychopathic criminals out there who will use these in an abusive way (whatever this means).
The next question you have to ask is what is the cost of that abuse?
8:00 PM
And what is the win?
One of the most powerful features on SO/SE is editing: you can put words in someone else's mouth!
And... It's available to everyone. You don't even need an account.
OTOH, the damage is easily mitigated.
Compare with tag merging, which is much more limited in what it can do... But has no easy undo. That's available only to mods.
Or tag burnination, which can't even do as much as merging... But like merging, rewrites history to make it as though the tag never existed, with no way to roll back from that. Only available to employees.
Any editor can do more damage, but the cost of repairing the damage is small by comparison.
@Shog9 I'm afraid to see my real stats.
TL;DR of what's going on though?
@ShadowWizard Afraid you're the only one that actually closes dupes?
We're discussing how best to punish you for your abuse of the dup-hammer on meta via the [discussion] tag badge hammer.
But we got sidetracked into a discussion as to whether the abuse is actually occurring, merely theoretical, or potentially even non-existent.
@Mgetz nope, to be a "careless badge-closing"...
I mean... it can be.
8:09 PM
Needless to say, punishment for a non-existent crime should be swift and brutal. So it is important to establish the nature of the abuse.
I imagine a sharp stick.
@Shog9 What they have to pay your bar tab?
@ShadowWizard Let's try a carrot first ;)
that's slow and painful, best reserved for folks who ask me a lot of questions
But seriously though, if you think I'm making mistakes, please let me know otherwise I can't really learn. I guess I can pay more attention when closing, or not close when not 100% sure it's really the same.
@Shog9 I can think of one... who isn't me... :)
8:12 PM
@ShadowWizard Dupes are always a bit subjective, if were going to instrument it I'd probably look at reopen stats of the person that hammered the questions. Just like you'd look at the percentage of that a district judge gets overturned on appeal
@Mgetz good point
I think in this case it's really the only metric available, and honestly lacking data shog has a point that this is moot until then.
More than likely there is enough data for sites like SO but not for MSE
@Mgetz not sure it's the only metric. There are other users who are more experienced than me, Shog is one of them, who can point on something I closed and say for sure it's wrong.
@Mgetz I have to admit using that privilege myself too early and short handed. But well, there's still a process, and other gold badge holders corrected my wrong decisions (complaining sometimes though) (at SO)
If that's really abusive behavior is debatable. There's no win for myself in the current game's setup.
@πάνταῥεῖ I think we've already spent more of SE's money and time on this issue than is really necessary tbh
8:29 PM
I am not responsible regarding SE's business development. Just a decent community member I am.
@πάνταῥεῖ I guess that's better than being an indecent community member
Designing non social networks seems to be a bit harder than designing social networks.
Without total anonymity it's ever been a lie, that content counts over the user.
Sure it's the user contributing content, and they are measured about their skills to do that in a productive manner.
You can't really come up with skills as a newbie, unless you studied all about that a certain time staying in non disclosure.
9:21 PM
Adam Francoeur on May 21, 2018

Stack Overflow has always been committed to protecting your privacy and your data. The European Union’s General Data Protection Regulation has prompted us to review our policies and make sure that we are doing the right thing for all of our users worldwide.

Stack Exchange, Inc. has updated its Terms of Service, Privacy Policy and Cookie Policy for all of our sites.

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@Feeds Um... is that blog post complete @TimPost ?
I ask because of a couple of indications... the post ends on a list... after a single item... and the post still has comments enabled... which is generally not the case.
Looks unfinished
Like someone was drafting it and accidentally hit submit
9:32 PM
Happens to the best.
famous last words ^
That's the second draft that's gone live that I'm aware of in the last week or so...
How many smart people does it take to operate WordPress without issues? :)
It's wordpress so between 2 and infinite
I'm actually pretty close to a discussion gold tag badge on MSO :o
Maybe you need to get them to set it up so that it takes two people to confirm posting ;)
@AdamLear 6-8
9:40 PM
At least it's not in the sidebar... yet.
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, pattern-matching email in answer: Are Simon the Pharisee (in Luke) and Simon the leper (in other Gospels) the same person? by marria on hermeneutics.SE
\o/ Dreams do come true!
9:56 PM
Heh, came here to ask about badge progress... caching... thx for listening
00:00 - 22:0022:00 - 00:00

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