Tavern on the Meta

user5389107

1:00 PM

It sounds ludicrous but often times how you say it is just as important as what you're saying

I just realized I've never even written a cover letter

have to do some research

user1306322

1:18 PM

-7

Q: When moving comments to chat, retain comment upvotes as chat upvotes (not stars)

I'm proposing to modify chat to include special chat rooms where there are no stars, but upvotes instead. I've read the previous propositions similar to this one where upvotes get converted to stars and every time the rebuttal is "but upvotes aren't start and there are no upvotes in chat". So add...

I explained how this is not a duplicate in the question itself

Journeyman Geek

wait

chat. upvotes?

user1306322

yes

everyone's like "but stars are not upvotes"

Journeyman Geek

chat has upvotes?

user1306322

ok then make them upvotes if it matters so much

chat can have whatever we make it have

Journeyman Geek

ah other than that I suspect its a really low priority to add features to chat ;p

Mgetz

1:20 PM

@user1306322 But isn't voting the root of all SE evil?

user1306322

that's a separate discussion which I don't mean to touch

all I want is to retain the comment upvotes so I can pop into these moved chat rooms and see with what comments/messages people agreed with before the move

and I want to read some official opinion on this matter

user5389107

@Mgetz so evil is voting^2?

user1306322

something something road to evil paved with upvotes

Mgetz

@user5389107 I can neither confirm nor deny the evilness of voting

Journeyman Geek

ugh

I just confused @user1306322 and @user5389107

@user5389107 dude, could you at least change your ava? ;p

user1306322

1:24 PM

sorry but that's part of the deal with my username on metas

I don't want to stand out

those who need can figure out my other identities but I don't want to make a mess with different appearance in chat and the site

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 the official opinion is a bit of a hard sell

user1306322

@JourneymanGeek got links? :p

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 oh in general

user5389107

Is that you specific horse lady?

user1306322

so far I only got the user base opinion

and that's not what I'm interested in actually

no matter what the public might want to think

Journeyman Geek

1:26 PM

@user5389107 dosen't sound like her

user5389107

I don't know I get confused myself

user1306322

click my network profile, see what I do

user5389107

My idea in changing it was making me less distinctive

Remove some attachment and personality

Journeyman Geek

ah not horse lady

I saw you on SU ;p

user1306322

it's just wild to me that I have to call out the gold badge wearer for closing the question without paying attention like that

too often I find myself in situations like this

but it's because I try to find a new angle to solve an old problem and by then nobody cares enough to inspect the distinction

hey

1:50 PM

@user1306322 FWIW, the question is already reopened, so you might delete your comment

And now I'm curious how often/what percentage those "comments moved to chat" rooms were frozen and deleted for inactivity...

And since comment is vulnerable to 3 flags removal, those "moved to chat" links were flagged and removed (I hope it has never happened...)

TylerH

2:27 PM

@user5389107 s/often times/every time/

Mgetz

@user1306322 it doesn't surprise me at all I've seen it quite a lot on SO.

user1306322

@hey that shouldn't happen at all imo

hey

2:45 PM

All chat rooms follow retention rule though, so at worst it will be frozen if there are more than 15 messages from more than 1 user. Otherwise, deleted if less than 15 messages.

(I believe it, because Shog says so)

Mgetz

3:24 PM

sd why

looks like a false positive but the question is questionable as is

Mgetz

3:58 PM

sd why

I can't see the deleted post or user... but looks like a true positive

Mithrandir

You can check the "MS" link, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Catija

If you use userscripts, you can install FIRE and it will show you a popup of the post even if it's already deleted.

That'd also save having that sort of foul language visible in here :)

→ 1 message moved to Chimney

Mgetz

@Mithrandir I've had similar said to my face

@Catija I didn't think that was available to users without the 10k rep

Catija

FIRE is tied to Meta Smoke, so the content is served up by the Charcoal website, not SE. Deleted content is viewable there.

Mithrandir

FIRE works off of metasmoke data, and metasmoke data is available to everyone.

Mgetz

4:03 PM

@Catija ah

Mithrandir

@Catija (official capitalization is "metasmoke", BTW - see the official stuffz)

Catija

Then why is the MS link capitalized??? :P

Mgetz

@Mithrandir is there a ™ too?

Mithrandir

no

Mgetz

I was teasing, at a past job they got very particular that a product name always have the trademark on it

rene

4:14 PM

→ 9 messages moved to Chimney

hey

No more fun name like "Stack Exchange™ MultiCollider SuperDropdown™" recently..?

Anonymous

We fucking hate fun.

Mgetz

@hey ®

@user1114 language

Anonymous

The "Contact Us" form doesn't send an email confirmation. That's bad.

Catija

You mean for the arbitration opt out?

Anonymous

4:23 PM

oops, almost forgot. let's do that too.

Anonymous

but chat profile deletion request in this case.

Catija

For MSE?

Anonymous

I am wondering if the software will properly anonymize the transcripts.

Anonymous

MSE/SE, keeping SO since I actually use that constructively.

Catija

I doubt it. It doesn't update changed usernames.

Anonymous

4:24 PM

The software tends to bake old user names into the transcripts, but that doesn't satisfy anonymization.

Anonymous

Do you need to be an EU resident to invoke GDPR, or is citizenship enough? I wonder....

Mgetz

@user1114 depends on who you ask, generally speaking it seems that either works

Anonymous

Swell. Then I trust this will work out, since Brexit hasn't taken that from me yet.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@user1114 Mind your wording in chat please.

Anonymous

Meh. The rule on profanity is post-Jeff.

Anonymous

4:28 PM

Uber Eliminates Forced Arbitration for Sex Misconduct Claims

Anonymous

okay, opted out.

Anonymous

Evan had spread the Good Word of Opting across Reddit.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Lot of things happened "post Jeff"

Anonymous

Regrettable.

πάντα ῥεῖ

//shrug

SmokeDetector

5:46 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Looking for meaningful review of LeapTest by Jakob Vinkel-Schaarup on sqa.SE

Shog9

@user1114 nope:

120

Q: Are expletives (cursing, swear words or vulgar language) allowed on SE sites?

Can I use salty, expletive-laden language on Stack Exchange sites, like Q*Bert? For more information, see "What kind of behavior is expected of users?" in the Help Center. Return to FAQ index

support faq etiquette profanity

user5389107

Idk about the arbitration thing

Considering how notoriously litigious american society is I can totally see why they feel the need for that

Also we have an electronic opt out now so it no longer affects me (There is nothing SE could do to me that would make me join a class action lawsuit that I can imagine right now)

Anonymous

@Shog9 Jeff's answer wasn't the top of that thread until y'all deleted the actual community-selected answer, which he never did.

Anonymous

I had forgotten that he made the vote-losing post, though.

Anonymous

Shog9

5:58 PM

@user1114 the top answer was "minimize them". Which is a good policy, except everyone who gets dinged for cussing at others used it to argue that they only did so out of necessity. In practice, that's always how the rule has been applied, but...

Anonymous

ah, true, it was.

Anonymous

needed to keep scrolling.

user5389107

I don't think they're warning everyone using a curse word but if it becomes part of your regular language it's kinda not appropriate for a professional Q/A site

Shog9

And if you're gonna be pedantic, "fuck" isn't profanity.

Mgetz

This sounds like the answer to many Meta questions which almost always ends in "and this is why we can't have nice things"

Anonymous

5:59 PM

"Fuck" is hardly even vulgar.

Mgetz

@Shog9 See the applicable morals and standards discussion from yesterday morning (US time)

Anonymous

Lots of immigrants use it as a casual expression because that's what they've learned through media.

Anonymous

Which is accurate in terms of the actual weight it carries now.

user5389107

@user1114 I spent a lot of time unlearning using it in regular language

Because when I learned english it was from curse affine c++ developers

Shog9

You'll also note that when animuson deleted the top answer he edited the caveats into Jeff's answer.

This is traditional for meta FAQs

Anonymous

6:02 PM

I thought "frak" was a good inoffensive substitute until I grew up and rewatched BSG and decided maybe it wasn't something I wanted to rep so much.

Shog9

@user1114 HEAVILY dependant on locale and context. Remember, a lot of folks use these sites at work and don't get to make the rules based on their personal comfort level.

Anonymous

It keeps that good mouth feel of the word, which most alternatives do not.

user5389107

Honestly at some point avoiding it becomes natural

as a side effect of spending so much time on SE my friends think I'm a snob now

Catija

Fudge has good mouthfeel.

I've surprised a few people with my off-SE chatter... I... cuss a lot.

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user5389107

6:04 PM

@Catija You do?

Anonymous

"Merde" has the mouthfeel of merde.

Catija

Like a sailor.

user5389107

Doesn't sound like something you'd do from how you present here

Catija

Though, not many can attest to it... ;)

Shog9

So did Jeff, an irony not lost in that nearly nine year old discussion...

user5389107

6:05 PM

I don't think I've ever heard you cuss or be outwardly raging

Catija

That's because I know how to edit before I hit "enter" or "submit". :P

There are so many times I've had to change what I say to adjust it and make it cleaner or nicer or... less ambiguously... snarky/snide.

Shog9

The thing to remember here is that most of what we do on SO isn't exactly natural. The rules tend to reflect a goal of being a bit better than our normal selves, not being... Comfortable.

user5389107

Answering on SE is inherently uncomfortable

It's the feeling you get when you put up your work to be scrutinized by a lot of people really good at what you're writing about

You get that little flush of anxiety every time you hit submit because you might be wrong and if you are, someone will usually notice

Catija

I used to be on a chat/message board ... thing... not really a server or... I don't really know how to describe it... but we spent a lot of time encouraging people to just use real words, not chat speak or text speak or leet...

user5389107

I find that to be the most valueable learning experience. You don't get that from school. School is a game of "good enough". SE is a game of "as good as it can be"

Catija

6:09 PM

Thankfully, not something that I often have to deal with here.

@user5389107 And when you get :gasp: downvoted, you're agonizing over the "did I really say something wrong or did Tim just lose his keys again???"

@user5389107 It's funny... I have run into many users who have had their posts critiqued and, rather than fixing it when the suggestions are made to improve, they respond by saying "I'll do it right the next time"... and I don't understand that... why the next time? Why not fix this right here and now. We've told you exactly how to do that. Help us help you! Make your answers better by making your question more descriptive... improve your answer so that it's more useful to everyone...

Kevin B

yeah but editing means it gets bumped and more people look at it!

Catija

... Well... if you fixed it... that's good... right? ;)

user5389107

@Catija It has helped me immensely in formulating stuff and articulating myself

it's also a very emotionally safe way to get used to harsh criticism

(at least for me)

Catija

@user5389107 To clarify, do you mean actually editing based on suggestions or refusing to edit?

Mithrandir

@Catija Many users don't get editing.

user5389107

6:19 PM

It's been really life changing for me personally, it's made me learn faster, become a better developer and develop some confidence and ability to articulate myself. I owe a lot of the "professional" writing style people at work like about my english to SE as a whole

@Catija actually editing

Catija

Cool :D I figured that's what you meant. :P

@Mithrandir Indeed. And then they complain that their question's closed. :P

user5389107

Every time I get a good suggestion to edit into an answer I carry that little tidbit with me for the next time. "don't do that" "maybe change that" it accumulates and many answers later you learn to write better from the start

Even getting questions closed helps

In real life people still judge you if you waste their time with pointless questions, just not openly most of the time

Learning to condense and articulate problems properly is the #1 tool for finding solutions to your problems on the web

And when you don't find anything and present your colleagues with a well researched question that demonstrates you're valueing their time, they're usually very open to helping you

It's like SE is the dark souls of software development. You get good at it eventually

Catija

That's one of the great things about SE... particularly SO... if you're talking to a superior at work or coworkers, there are only so many people you can lean on for help... with SO, there are hundreds... thousands of active users so it's unlikely that any of them will get annoyed by your repeated errors (even when you don't make the same error over again).

Kevin B

dark souls isn't very welcoming

user5389107

@KevinB It actually is though

Dark souls gets a lot of crap for being unfair and harsh, but it's actually really fair. I suck at action games and I've beaten all the souls titles because you can learn them gradually and progress through them step by step

Catija

6:24 PM

Dark Souls?

user5389107

notoriously hard action game

Catija

Oh. I see.

user5389107

It's kind of infamous in gamer circles for being the game that people fail at repeatedly

Mgetz

@user5389107 equal opportunity pain

user5389107

I did die over 80 times on the nameless king but lets not talk about that :p

Catija

6:25 PM

For all that my first account was on Arqade... I'm not much of a gamer... and even less so than I was as a kid or even a year ago.

Adam Lear

Catija

Oooh, you know what's a great game to fail at repeatedly, though... that meat wad one with all of the blood.... the character has no skin or it's inside out or something...

Adam Lear

@Catija Super Meat Boy?

Catija

YES!

user5389107

Hollow knight is also amazing

Kevin B

6:27 PM

i have that, but i couldn't get it to work with my controller or keyboard for some reason

user5389107

If you ever wanted a charming and intriguing experience of being a beetle wielding a small nail like a sword ...

Catija

I also really love Guacamelee.

user5389107

heh

Catija

I haven't gotten to play the second installment... maybe this summer. I don't actually have a console, so I'm dependent on my step brother-in-law to visit or for us to visit him.

Jon Ericson

@Catija It is really good, but I keep hitting my skill wall. :-(

Catija

6:40 PM

Remembering the combos is hard but I really love how they give you the training space to learn them.

... or, I should say... force you to pass a training stage before letting you get back to the game. :P

@JonEricson How far have you gotten in?

Jon Ericson

@Catija I have all the abilities and I think I'm near the end. Each time I pick it up, I get a bit further on.

Catija

Are you going solo or with help? We did it as a pair and it was a lot easier.

Jon Ericson

Solo. My son and I played a bit, but it didn't stick with him that much.

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Catija

Get your wife involved? :P There are a few things I think are great for building communication in a couple ... cooperative gaming ... and canoeing/kayaking (in a single boat).

Jon Ericson

6:54 PM

Funny you should mention that:

22

Q: How does one steer a two-person kayak?

My wife and I recently bought an inflatable, tandem kayak. I grew up canoeing and we've had many enjoyable outings on the water together, so I thought two-person kayaking would be relatively easy. When I take the craft out solo, I find it very responsive, easy to steer, and (for a recreational-...

kayaks technique

Catija

HAHAHAHA

Mithrandir

> (I can't suggest tags yet.) – Jon Ericson♦

Catija

Awww. That's cute.

Did any of the answers solve your problem?

Don't tell my wife, but I think the problem might be that she's a little bit of a control freak and wants to help steer. If your bit of advice works for others, I may have a problem that is definitely off-topic for Outdoors.SE. ;-) — Jon Ericson ♦ Jun 28 '12 at 18:08

Oh, hey... looks like a question for Interpersonal Skills...

Jon Ericson

Heh. Yep.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Catija flagging as spam

Jon Ericson

7:00 PM

@Catija We had a bunch of disruptive things happen (well, just two [better link]) that changed things after that question. ;-) It's been too long since we've gone out together.

Catija

TWINS!

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Jon Ericson

Yes. They are amazing and fun. But they also consume tons of time and effort.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@SmokeDetector K

Catija

I wanted a pair of mixed-gender twins so badly... I'm way too much of a fan of Twelfth Night.

Mgetz

7:03 PM

ugg I hate hitting my mental wall so early in the day

Catija

Awww... wait... one of your twins has the same name I do, just with a different spelling?

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Cajita

Jon Ericson

Joy had been saving that name for years. Isaac (which means laughter) was obviously a reaction to finding out we had twins.

Catija

That's such a sweet story. :)

Mgetz

@JonEricson it amazes me constantly people that don't realize names have meanings

user5389107

7:07 PM

Everyone having kids around me

:o

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Catija

@user5389107 Who else? That post is five years old :P

Jon Ericson

@Mgetz Have you read The Wizard of Earthsea? If not, it's worth it. (And the power of naming is a central premise.)

user5389107

@Catija No I mean everyone has kids

Mgetz

@JonEricson I'm jewish... it's a bit more omnipresent to us

user5389107

7:08 PM

Is having was a tense error

Catija

Ah.

user5389107

Feels like everyone at work

Place is a ghost time during summer break

I'll literally be the only one in in the 5 person IT department

Jon Ericson

@Mgetz Literally. ;-)

Catija

The "hallway" I work in has had (in the two years I've worked here)... something like... 6-7 kids?

Mgetz

@JonEricson I think nearly half of Jewish Mysticism is about names.. we're a bit obsessed yes.

user5389107

7:10 PM

Funnily enough all more then one too

Jon Ericson

Kids are like potato chips. Very expensive potato chips. :-)

user5389107

I liked "The Kingkiller Chronicles" by Patrick Rothfuss

These are also partially about the power of names

Catija

So very expensive.

Mithrandir

@JonEricson Well, if you turn the couch potatoes into chips....

user5389107

I am fond of my ability to comfortably live off of 1200 eur a month

Catija

7:13 PM

Many books about magic have an element to the "power" of something's "true" name... sort of, you can control it if you know what it's called.

Mgetz

@JonEricson dilbert.com/strip/1991-04-15

user5389107

It harkens back to the concept of what a name is supposed to be ... a true descriptor

And it's true in the real world. If you understand someone fully, that gives you no small measure of power over them.

Mgetz

@user5389107 that would be why about half of jewish mysticism is about names

It never ceases to amaze me that people post SO questions to meta

Catija

I'm somewhat anxious about VTC a question by John Wick. :/

Mgetz

@Catija I know I should get the meme... but I don't I'm like Shog... I constantly miss all the meme material

Catija

7:24 PM

It's not a meme... just a movie.

youtube.com/watch?v=2AUmvWm5ZDQ :)

user5389107

I want one of these suits from john wick

They look like they fit comfortably and they also stop bullets

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M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

7:41 PM

@user5389107 however, it would be extremely hurtful

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek reopen-pls Not a duplicate; a new question is more conducive to community discussion than an answer: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310226/…

user5389107

If your choice is between dead and a bruise I'd take the bruise

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

one-more-reopen-vote-needed in case someone else wants to reopen

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Catija he'd look at something that reminds him of his wife asking questions, and then vow to take revenge

Catija

But... if I give him a puppy?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

7:42 PM

@JourneymanGeek You also might be interested in this (declined) FR of mine: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309993/…

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Catija Then 'just a flesh wound'

This got so full of references. I'd need a minute

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog grrr, I disagree but I don't wanna downvote

@hichris

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

7:56 PM

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ If I may ask, why?

Mgetz

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ then upvote an answer you do agree with. Remember that on meta the question should be judged separately from the answers

If the question was worth asking even if you do disagree you can upvote the question

(and probably should)

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

It seems really messy to have multiple questions that cover the same ground. It might be a better idea to post this as an answer. Unfortunately - the only close vote option I have here's the hammer and I kind of feel its appropriate. — Journeyman Geek 13 hours ago

user5389107

@Catija I got really angry by proxy when I saw the intro to the first john wick

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@AdamLear Any new development on this? meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310019/…

user5389107

after that I was like yeah screw those guys when he decided to go after all of them

Adam Lear

8:01 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog No, I haven't had the time

Journeyman Geek

8:59 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog ehhh. I think there's too many such questions

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek I want my Taxonomist badge!

Journeyman Geek

Sure. What does that have to do with me?

Kevin B

hmm. i have that badge, but no idea what tag i created

canjs i don't even know what that is

πάντα ῥεῖ

@user5389107 LOL. I once got a british colleague in my younger years. She was a bit concerned about our "rude tone" (we hardly spoke english in the office, but the WTF rates were pretty high) :-D (all c and c++ programmers, yes)

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

9:44 PM

edit-reject-pls meta.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/57830

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Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

10:08 PM

cv-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310262/…

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

10:44 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog 'cause I wouldn't have seen it if you hadn't linked it in chat. Pretty annoying to post something of yours in chat and see it get downvoted

@Mgetz I mayhaps know that

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

11:13 PM

chaos-emerald-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/296119/… (@Shadow @rene)

(See edited comment for close vote)

"Too many requests"?

Intrusion again

@Shog9 Why am I getting "too many requests"?

Shog9

I have a theory...

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

I'm making too many requests?

Am I too fast?

Normally everyone values my speed

@Shog9 Was briefly able to connect, by routing my connection through India

But then, the airport code on that page changed from Burbank to LAX

Shog9

11:28 PM

there's a pretty strict rate limit

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Never hit it after recreating my account.

The last time I hit it was during the Ano days.

@Shog9 The fact that I was able to bypass it merely by enabling my VPN is a good reason why you guys should implement cookie blocking for IP addresses

Shog9

I don't think you quite get the purpose of the rate limit

if we have to process the request, then the rate-limit has already kinda failed

conversely, someone hammering the site is still a problem even if they don't send cookies

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Perform a lot of requests, switch to a different VPN server, get that one blocked, and then switch again, and then hopefully once you've cycled through them all, the block wears off one of the older ones, etc.

Shog9

there are other rate limits for specific activities - posting, editing, searching - that take more information into account.

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog yeah, folks do that

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Double the available servers by using two VPN providers

Shog9

11:33 PM

but... If you're willing to build an IP-hopping scraper, you're certainly more'n willing to build a scraper that doesn't send cookies

it's like... Door locks. Door locks are not there to stop people willing to break windows. They're there to stop people who might just walk in, but will respect a locked door.

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