Tavern on the Meta

hey

2:35 AM

!!/report anime.stackexchange.com/a/47023/2516

hey

3:05 AM

Morning...

wow, was a quite slow... night...

I agree with Hurkyl's diagnosis. The site became ill for having an unhealthy diet of PSQs and their answers for many a year. C.R.U.D.E. is the foul tasting medicine. — Jyrki Lahtonen ♦ May 8 at 11:36

Of course, we could eventually rename that chatroom C.U.R.E.D., but that would be premature. — Jyrki Lahtonen ♦ May 8 at 11:37

ha! :)

Anonymous

3:59 AM

I think we could put TempleOS on a blockchain through an Ubrit-style functional representation.

Anonymous

"blockchain" -> users (clueless but willing) -> dedicated Stack Exchange site

hey

How to get your Area 51 proposal approved: add blockchain to it. E.g. "Weapons with Blockchain Technology"

Anonymous

Anonymous

(reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/8ipgmt/…)

hey

I see a familiar name, hmm....

Anonymous

4:10 AM

Evan is no fan of oppressive systems like these American legal "norms".

Anonymous

Our good man Mr. Arciszewski can also be found in that thread.

Journeyman Geek

5:54 AM

@user1114 Mr EC is not a fan of SO's management. Ever

Travis J

Maybe an environment where you help people solve problems, keyword being help, was not the right environment for EC.

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ funny thing is? Apparently he's actually not that bad on some sites

Travis J

As in, he isn't the worst user there, and causes trouble from time to time, but overall, he certainly isn't good... just... not that bad.

Journeyman Geek

Oh, in a sense that's the worst.

If its the worst user, you have a good reason to get rid of them

Travis J

What about a not that bad reason to get rid of them? ;)

Journeyman Geek

6:01 AM

Its the low level, borderline, buzzing in your ear type users that's hard to handle

Travis J

Because they can be vindictive?

Journeyman Geek

Because they know exactly where the line is, and dance right on it

Travis J

Yup. Same thing.

(unrelated) Have you heard of CredSSP?

Been dealing with that today

Journeyman Geek

Didn't it HNQ somewhere? ;p

Travis J

27k views, I guess so

Isn't that your domain though? SU?

Journeyman Geek

6:07 AM

Been busy T T

Travis J

:)

Journeyman Geek

3 nightshifts in a row kinda affects my optics of stuff

Travis J

eww

Night shifts? What broke?

Journeyman Geek

just my current schedule

supposed to be 2 this week but we're apparently cronically short of people

Travis J

What type of work do you do?

Journeyman Geek

6:09 AM

currently? Monitoring, and helpdesk

needed a job, pay wasn't too bad, and it keeps me in employment at least a year.

Travis J

So you sleep during the day for those then? Or just up all night?

Journeyman Geek

Not enough contact with actual hardware or software for my liking but ugh, its a job

Kinda come back home and catch up those days

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, blacklisted website in answer: What's the correct way to ask for a feature in GNU Linux? by Liam C on unix.SE

πάντα ῥεῖ

sd tp-

hey

6:35 AM

Sleeeeeeeeepyyyyy...........

morning

\o

o/

7:42 AM

morning

user359686

morning

Derpy

has any update been made about the arbitration VS foreign laws issue?

Travis J

You mean since the last one?

John Dvorak

The last I know is "Hey, let us explain why we did this"

Travis J

last one: meta.stackexchange.com/q/310061/178816

Derpy

7:49 AM

@JohnDvorak nope... I know about that post.

By now 3 replies on that same post point out that the arbitration clause probably won't hold in many foreign countries like Europe. Users asked for confirmation and/or comments on this - no reply was provided that I know of.

Sadly, this is really starting to bug me. I mean, bug me more than this whole arbitration thing already did.

John Dvorak

You can always ask on law.se

Derpy

they already did.

and I have already linked that post here.

46

Q: How does SE's arbitration clause hold up under the GDPR?

Today the new Terms of Service of Stack Exchange have been released, sparking a lot of unrest about its arbitration clause; see the comments and answers on the linked meta above, and also this question. Does the GDPR prevent Stack Exchange from using the arbitration clause against EU citizens? ...

^ if anyone wants to pin it.

the point is that I somehow would want the staff to acknowledge that.

John Dvorak

gotcha

user5389107

@Derpy They have lawyers and their own DPO working on that, so you can't really expect any other employees to make legal statements like that

You bet that every word of tim post's post about the arbitration clause is pre-vetted

Travis J

IMO IANAL ACRONYM: Terms of Service rarely protect a company when they do something that causes you harm.

The real, and only, question from my point of view is: would Stack Exchange harm you as a user? From my experience I see a resounding no there, and so I just dismiss all this as noise.

That's just me though, feel free to take a different angle.

John Dvorak

8:02 AM

Maybe when the current head gets smitten by a passing bus and a new reign rises

user5389107

It's unfair to expect the CMs and Tim to bear that burden. They have lawyers for that and probably have been instructed by those lawyers to keep silent about posts where a response from an employee could be used as evidence against the company in a court

I don't particularly care about the TOS for now. SE is like the last company I'm worried about screwing me right now

John Dvorak

Right

I'd be more worried about Google. "People have whined about your content one too many time. No more uploads, no more subbox, we'll even take your email from you and tell our DNS to ignore your pleads for sanity".

user5389107

It's also worth noting that the employees are still human. This is their job and all but I don't agree with some of the flat out vitriol that seems to be bursting forth

Keeping perspective and all that yes mandatory arbitration is regrettable to be subjected to but I'm 100% certain nobody at SE is foaming at the mouth waiting to screw people over as soon as the opt out period passes like some of the answers seem to suggest.

John Dvorak

Microsoft has better tools to screw people over than law, too. They could push out an update to brick everyone's PC and get away with it - because, guess what technology the law system relies on?

user5389107

Paypal could screw me hard

John Dvorak

8:07 AM

I have, like, $2 stored with Paypal.

user5389107

I saw it happen to a friend. Took 3 years and thousands in lawyers fees to get it resolved and even then they ended up permabanning him for the audacity to question their random money holding

Journeyman Geek

Also most companies would push the change and tell you to quit if you were unhappy

user5389107

Yeah I just use it as a proxy for my bank account now

Travis J

I am trusting paypal with a decent amount of payment handling.

John Dvorak

@JourneymanGeek very true

Travis J

8:08 AM

No problems yet.

user5389107

@JourneymanGeek or just don't tell you "we may change these terms at any time without notice"

John Dvorak

Pretty sure those new unannounced TOS would be 100% unenforceable.

user5389107

That's not the point

Most TOS are unenforceable

Derpy

Yes, sorry my bad, I hoped that wouldn't end in "nitpicking" buy yep, I used the wrong wording. Shouldn't have said *"staff"*. Replace that with "company."

so, new revision of the statement.

"I somehow would expect that the company had that issues sorted out BEFORE the initial announcement of the TOS revision and the arbitration clause"

user5389107

They're mostly legalese scare tactics

John Dvorak

8:09 AM

That pinned 9-star message is still really unnerving, BTW...

user5389107

Steam's TOS has been unenforceable in europe for most of steam's life

Even the new disclaimer where you waive refunds explicitly contradicts european law

It does its job though: preventing people from trying

John Dvorak

I love living in Europe

Derpy

So, I am really sorry, but I don't think it is so unrealistic to expect that a company that has a world-wide user base would notice that the new ToS they are making leaves some weird "holes" about how many foreign countries will be handled.

Does a post on law really need to point that out?

I may have not realized the issues without that post, but I am not a lawyer.

user5389107

considering how many people are running around with their heads in the sand in response to GDPR I'm not sure SE is doing poorly in that respect by comparison

John Dvorak

Are you sure they didn't know they were pushing holey TOS?

Derpy

8:14 AM

The ones that wrote the ToS should be.

John Dvorak

I have zero idea how I would go about complying with GDPR...

Derpy

so, either I should assume they don't care - like someone suggested here...

I just looked at the Contact us page of this JAMS and ... surprise, surprise, they only talk to people residing in the US. It is blatantly obvious in case of an arbitration involving a US party and a non-US party, which side they would favour. Not necessarily because of any deceit, but simply because they are seem to be ignorant of people outside the US (at least the Contact Us page suggests so, even though they also talk about "International Arbitration" and stuff). — Masked Man 16 hours ago

user5389107

@JohnDvorak I have some idea, since I have to manage it in my company

John Dvorak

@user5389107 please accept my condolences

user5389107

Even for a small supplier / service provider company with exclusively big corporate clients it's an annoying hellhole with no limit to how much energy you can sink into the particulars

I can't imagine a user-focused big data firm like SE

John Dvorak

8:16 AM

@Derpy they have some very weird definition of "worldwide"

Derpy

or I can trust that they didn't notice

either way, the only conclusion I can make is that the whole process wasn't deemed the right importance.

oh, btw, this comment also really stands out.

ripoffreport.com/reports/… this is looking rather unnerving, though. It's pretty old and vaguely kooky, but I see some similar sentiments in Google results for "jams arbitration track-record" ... this too: reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/71o13f/jams_arbitratio‌n/… — tripleee May 11 at 7:18

^ but take it with a lot of salt. I have no way to confirm it

user5389107

@JohnDvorak Eh. Nobody else wanted to. It was either me or some external firm that'd cost thousands and audit our procedures every year.

Journeyman Geek

@Derpy ughm. I would take what masked man says with a pinch of salt. He kinda gets attracted by drama

hey

8:37 AM

So, can someone ELI5 what's wrong with the new ToS? Especially, the "arbitration"?

(Sorry if that might sound ignorance, but I'm really weak at understanding law)

user5389107

@hey Essentially it's supposed to mean that you can't sue SE. You can only take them to an arbitrator (which they select and pay) and that arbitrator will decide on the case and if you get damages or not. You agree beforehand to accept the verdict of that arbitrator as binding to you like a court order.

JP Morgan chase and other banks are notorious for using biased arbitrators to essentially get away with defrauding customers and prevent large class action lawsuits to be brought against them.

hey

Thanks, that's really easy to understand! But then... I don't think I have any thought at all of suing SE...

Journeyman Geek

And that's a point that is important for me

user5389107

@hey Also the reason why I don't care much

Journeyman Geek

If you think it's not for you, you literally send one email or letter

user5389107

8:42 AM

I'm not worried about SE screwing me hard enough that I'd have to sue them at the moment

I did send the email though, since they offered so graciously :D

hey

searching for paper napkin and red crayon...

Derpy

8:58 AM

@JourneymanGeek the point is that is not the user who is making those claims. The site he linked is. He just provided us the link.

@hey the point is that basically that means that in the case of a data breach due to their fault (see twitter, passwords in log files) you also forego the ability of joining a class action - or at least that is my understanding.

Journeyman Geek

@Derpy er he literally linked to the contact us page, then made a crapload of speculation

and they could have picked JAMS literally because their lawyers recommended them

Derpy

9:19 AM

@JourneymanGeek ????? !!!! Ah, I get it now, you where speaking about the first comment I linked. Sorry, I though you where talking about the second one, the one with the link to that "ripoff reports" site.

yep, the first one is indeed more paranoia-sided, but please take your time to put it in context. Read the whole comment chain and you will probably understand why he made that notice.

Journeyman Geek

9:33 AM

@Derpy I literally said masked man

Triplee's good people, though sometimes overenthusiastic

SmokeDetector

9:45 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer, username similar to website in answer: Can I drive with a broken/without the spider spring in my clutch? by Kalyani Springs on mechanics.SE

hey

10:05 AM

While stumbling upon other meta sites discussing about "that blog" ... why do I suddenly feel apathy to SE's promises about improving the tools to be more welcoming ...

Derpy

?

hey

SO is ~~kind of~~ not really welcoming....

Derpy

the only comment I can made is that lately the company (again, not going to use the word "staff" since it seems to only make people think of Shog&CO, forgetting all the rest of the people that should be handling marketing, public relations and so on...) seems to be a little on the "reactive" side.

By which I mean - ignore problems until they gain too much visibility.

Obviously, this is just my personal view.

Journeyman Geek

@hey cause tools don't make things more welcoming

tools help us deal with problems but you can't develop your way out of every problem

hey

now I feel that blog is hopeless too

Journeyman Geek

10:20 AM

eh

It can be a start - but we really need to work on communication.

Derpy

That said, a good start could be trying NOT to mimic Storm King "friendship, rainbow and ponies" line if you are discussing about how to make the site more welcoming...

Journeyman Geek

@Derpy but that's not new

Derpy

@JourneymanGeek you actually got what I meant? Weird. I was already thinking no one would get my message.

Journeyman Geek

@Derpy on the other hand - at least some of our current CMs, and at higher levels are wading back into very visible people ops.

hey

and indeed that blog spawned many ideas, some good, others bad, like "I suggest a change to the SE model, new users can't be downvoted until they either reach a certain milestone (50 rep or so), or post a number of posts (10 posts or so). This way the system will protect them and give them time until they are used to the culture of SE or the culture of the specific site within SE."

Journeyman Geek

10:23 AM

@hey Well, but also some visibility over how we can better help users or run the community

I'm all about teaching people to fish over handing them a fish.

But kicking them in the stomach and laughing cause they have nothing to eat is just wrong.

Derpy

@JourneymanGeek Just yesterday I saw a Breaking Magic episode. Billy and another of the 4 illusionists were doing some candid camera style trick in a restaurant.

spilled some vine on a jacket in order to make people think it was ruined, then putting it on fire too.

All the time, the people sitting at the other table (the "victims" of the candid camera) were laughing like mad, thinking that the jacked was indeed ruined, taking photos with their smartphones and such.

This is mankind for you.

hey

So... I guess I should reverse the question? What condition/requirement for SE to be (perceived) welcoming?

Journeyman Geek

@hey I actually think we are confusing 2 issues

Remember in the old days?

Jeff had a simple rule.

Don't be a dick.

So. Don't be a dick.

Derpy

I could answer with a simple - be kind to others, but then I should define "kind". To define "kind" I would probably need to define "ethics".

Journeyman Geek

I don't overcomplicate things. If you do something you shouldn't, I go "hey, don't do that"

Some folk listen, some folk don't.

If your actions are going to make other people leave, well, we need to take a look at ... what's happening and deal with it.

Derpy

10:36 AM

The definition of ethics is something philosophy analyzes since ancient time. Yet, they don't agree even on the most basic things.

I assume for someone making those "bad users" leave is a good thing. That said, different views would be the smallest of the problems.

it is not like we are in the current situation because we don't agree on what "kind" is.

Journeyman Geek

Well "make them leave" kind of is fighting fire with fire.

We first have folks try to set boundaries within the community. And if that works, we're fine. Otherwise, we... remove them

Derpy

It's just that some people don't care. And some "people" actually take great pleasure from making others feel bad.

Journeyman Geek

Well, those are the sort of folk we don't particularly need.

But hey, we're a content focused site first. People not having a chance to be mean is... a net win

Derpy

again, sadly, I think you would need to fix humanity before fixing this site.

hey

So.... are we too lenient on those old-timer/high-rep "abusive" users?

Sometimes I feel like SE is not yet a "fine" site, unlike Singapore...

Derpy

10:48 AM

@hey every day thousands of internet users go to youtube to watch videos of people hurting themselves in the new "Epic Fail" videos (or risking their life in "funny car incidents" !). You expect those to care about others?

best you can do is trying to create a community that wants to be different.

Which brings us to the question. Does our community really want to change? Or it is just the few of us discussing here while all the others are still finding all this "be nice" stuff to be just an annoyance?

Journeyman Geek

@hey that's something each site needs to deal with as it happens

I personally think those folks have less of an excuse

hey

Sometimes going to more extreme moderation is really the way... at least for a site as big as SO

Like, mod messaging users who got comment flagged as rude once, then manual suspension of 3 days for each subsequent flag...

zero-tolerance policy?

John Dvorak

11:06 AM

Please no...

Mgetz

@hey zero tolerance policies are incredibly exclusionary and generally turn out extremely badly

Martin James

@hey That would become a zero-comment policy. It already has in my case.

Mgetz

also rude is very subjectice

Mithrandir

@MartinJames a zero-comment policy wouldn't be so bad :P

they're misused all the time anyway

I... think i ranted about that recently

ah yes, on history meta

Derpy

yay, unexplained downvotes galore! -_-'

John Dvorak

11:14 AM

@Derpy we already have that

Martin James

@Mithrandir Well, the downvote without comment would get moaned about, no change there, but at least they would have no specific username as a target.

Mgetz

@Derpy Yay missused downvotes galore, should we ban them too?

John Dvorak

#MakeSOReadOnlyAgain

Derpy

@Mgetz before that you'll need to make everyone agree on what a missused downvote is. I'll be back in 6-8 light years (yep, joke made on purpose. I know those aren't a time unit)

Martin James

@JohnDvorak Tatter/blogs about 'SO is not providing any answers now - it's the fault of those high-rep user-moderators'

Mgetz

11:19 AM

@Derpy anything not covered by the help center page on downvotes

It's already settled

John Dvorak

Next step: make Stack Overflow FFA for one day, then ask experts nicely to return the next one.

Martin James

@Mgetz The OP's don't read that, so every downvote is a misused downvote because it arrives instead of an answer. You cannot hand in a downvote as an assignment answer, so it's bad.

Derpy

@Mgetz settled != agreed. That was the whole point of my message. Even the thing that should be set in stone people are still arguing over.

Mgetz

@JohnDvorak they are already starting to find other places to be

John Dvorak

Let me know when you do find one

Mgetz

11:21 AM

@Derpy it's a settled policy because it's corporate policy, the community has no say other than to ignore it

John Dvorak

might want to check it out

Derpy

@Mgetz nor they have any say on the be nice policy. Yet every day they argue about "room culture allows us to do that"

user5389107

@hey Not to toot my own horn there, but there was an IPS question exactly about that that I answered: interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/14232/2347

The gist is that how you frame the argument has a extreme effect on how people perecieve and act on it

The blog post was (in my opinion) an example of framing that is likely to make those reading it defensive (see the meta-firestorm of the past weeks) and is generally unconducive to solving anything.

Mgetz

@user5389107 if you're arguing you've already lost

which is why @Derpy will never accept my premise, albeit facetious

user5389107

@Mgetz If you want to effect change you can't dictate that in a community like this. The only real way to make that last is to frame a convincing argument and present it well

Mgetz

11:27 AM

@user5389107 realistically there already are convincing arguments in the help center, but as @JohnDvorak pointed out: Nobody Reads Them

user5389107

@Mgetz In the context of the blog post I was referring to something else

as I read it the blog post was an appeal to in part established users to be nicer and more welcoming. The argument in that appeal fell afoul of the aforementioned framing problem.

Mgetz

@user5389107 they always will. Those policies have traditionally and inherently conflicted with the more efficient workflows and wasted the experts time.

Derpy

@Mgetz and returning to the "be nice" policy, in most situations no one should need to read them in the first place. You really need some rule on a wall to tell you it isn't polite to call someone "mentally sick"? Or that homophobic comments or racial offenses should be avoided? Really?

Mgetz

@Derpy "Common sense" isn't common

The fact of the matter remains it takes a lot longer to educate than to downvote and close

and that many of the experts on the site cherrypick what they want to answer

user5389107

@Mgetz iirc the whole point of SO was to facilitate them doing that with as little friction as possible

hence why we don't have notify, DM's or other social features

Mgetz

11:34 AM

@user5389107 and it doesn't, and moreover to clear the chaff the easiest way to do so is to downvote and close

Derpy

That is "I don't care about others". That is "I care only for myself". That is "I love make others suffer". There is no common sense involved. Those aren't kids playing with a lizard they just caught until it drops its tail in an attempt to escape. They are adult, fully aware that the ones they are talking to are other humans with felling like theirs.

user5389107

It seems to me that the crux of the issue is that we're not just clearing the chaff but also sometimes get snarky or derogatory or pile on more then necessary to clear said chaff

Derpy

No one is perfect and everyone does mistakes. But often the most egregious cases I see here aren't mistakes.

It's just a "I don't care".

Mgetz

@Derpy you're making a lot of assumptions about disinterested and non-personal interactions.

user5389107

@Derpy Not really, experts are still donating their highly valueable time for free to help others

Unless you think SO is being used as a tool for self aggrandizement.

Derpy

11:37 AM

@user5389107 nope, it is simply that due to too many messages posted that is now out of context. Let's see

nope, too late.

consider it linked to Mgetz message about common sense, some rows above

user5389107

hmm

can you edit it to be a reply of that instead?

Derpy

too late to edit.

Mgetz

@Derpy when people don't have a face to place with the person they are interacting with they tend to react in a much more callous way.

Derpy

> “Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.”
Robert E.Howard

user5389107

@Derpy You'd be shocked how different some cultures and people are

We have such a broad array of people here that you can't assume nearly anything as given.

Derpy

11:40 AM

@user5389107 and what makes those cultures "right"?

user5389107

I didn't say they are

Just said that yes, some incredibly basic things do need spelling out

Mgetz

@Derpy all cultures are "Right" from their own perspectives and norms

Derpy

then my point still stand. Your "hearth" should tell you. And if the "culture" twisted you to the point that you now think that killing people from other races is "good"... then we have a bigger problem.

user5389107

@Derpy Welcome to broader problems in the world

Mgetz

@Derpy what if your gods demand it? (Aztec)

Why should your westernized human life valuing norms take precedence

John Dvorak

11:44 AM

What if my god asks me to kill cows every once in a year, and your god says it's murder?

user5389107

Practical example that I encountered while running a minecraft server was a couple of saudi arabian guys who were offended that one of the admins was female and had power over them. In the end they left. Cultural conditioning is a powerful thing in framing your perspective

Mgetz

@JohnDvorak Kararite jews Vs. Hindus

Derpy

@Mgetz I will leave this to people who knows more about philosophy than me, but I think Protagoras had some to say over this.

To put it basically.... you claim morals comes from gods?

Mgetz

@Derpy my point is that inclusion has some boundaries based on where you start, morals (norms) are always relative and societal. There will always be culture conflicts that are irreconcilable.

Derpy

and that is the precise point on which we disagree. Moral should be absolute, not relative.

Mgetz

11:50 AM

@Derpy who's morals?

Derpy

@Mgetz mu.

user5389107

@Derpy This is getting really philosophical but where would you draw an absolute moral basis from?

John Dvorak

I could propose a source of absolute morals, but 99.9% of all population would send me to hell.

Derpy

@user5389107 that's is a question I cannot answer. The nature of morality/ethics has been discussed for ages and no agreement was found. Some say it is to minimize pain, some to follow gods rules, some to maximize global gain... some even say that there is no answer but the search is the meaning.

Mgetz

@JohnDvorak Hell or a hell like equivalent

John Dvorak

11:57 AM

A good chunk of the 99.9% would send me to the literal place.

user5389107

@Derpy And now you know why you can't assume an absolute moral basis for the purposes of governing stack exchange

Mgetz

@Derpy The issue is that morality is the based on social norms which vary from place to place. For example the Chinese Communist party considers it acceptable to sacrifice the entire population of the DPRK to protect the Manchurian border.

John Dvorak

@Derpy misread as "maximize global pain", got curious...

user5389107

I'm not religious so I kinda subscribe to a version of the golden rule. Basicly try and minimize harm you personally cause and don't do to people what you wouldn't like

Mgetz

@JohnDvorak Seems nice

John Dvorak

12:00 PM

The only downside is that I'd have to learn Norwegian.

Mgetz

@JohnDvorak true, but you'd have universal health care!

John Dvorak

I already do

Mgetz

@JohnDvorak show off

hey

In the end, a society is inclusive to those who can adapt?

John Dvorak

@Mgetz google.com/maps/@50.052647,14.5043008,14z

Derpy

12:03 PM

@user5389107 and that is already close to absolute, isn't it? The only problem is that you will never agree on the edge cases. Like, it is assisted suicide right for terminally ill patients? And so on. That said, if it wasn't clear before, I will restate it now. The culture does not define morality. Your social norms call allow very evil things in some case, but that isn't moral. It is just someone coming up with an excuse to cleanse its soul.

Mgetz

@Derpy except it's not, in fact two of the three most popular monothestic religions don't agree on that at all.

Also "morality" is just the bedrock internalized societial norms

when your relativism is "People don't matter all that matters is what _______ thinks" you get some pretty messed up (by our western standards) things

John Dvorak

This relativism breaks down when _______ dies, though

Mgetz

@JohnDvorak that happens every couple thousand years and is replaced by a newer, better __________

Derpy

from morality to lodash.

John Dvorak

You mean, underscore

Mgetz

12:13 PM

@JohnDvorak all hail the supreme vue.js

user5389107

@Derpy Most importantly it's mine and nobody elses

Derpy

@JohnDvorak Tomato, tomato

user5389107

I can'T ascribe that to others

Mgetz

12:43 PM

@JohnDvorak I need to find an excuse to visit our Prague office.. sadly it's non-billable travel so it probably won't happen. If I'm lucky they'll let me visit our Montreal office and pick up some poutine.

Anonymous

1:09 PM

@JourneymanGeek I dunno, he and Jeff seem to accep each other now. Probably be comradarie of having both been a part of something that is now dead.

Anonymous

are: morality: I just want to raise the use of “convergent instrumental values” as a form of semi-objective morality. That is: we might not agree on what we want, but 90% of us should be able to agree on 90% of what it takes to achieve those goals, because they’re a things like “have a stable society where people don’t randomly kill each other”. Lots of questions can be boiled down to this level, without getting down to conflicting moral axioms.

Mgetz

@user1114 The problem is that outside of those two items it diverges very very quickly.

user5389107

@user1114 does jeff still get crap on twitter every day?

Anonymous

I don’t think he gets too much crap unless he’s stepping in it.

user5389107

I've heard someone on twitter refer to him as a "well known white supremacist" and just had to chuckle. Lemme see if I can find the tweet

Anonymous

1:26 PM

Well the bar for racist is now so low that you need to break your spine bending over to avoid it, so that doesn’t surprise me.

user5389107

He's probably one of the furthest things from

Feeds

Fixating on this seems unhealty. But in general, the more likely I think a crash is, the less likely one becomes, which is a strange kind of reverse placebo effect.

Anonymous

The idea that wanting borders to remain is a form of racism is a particular popular form of anti-morality that has evolved recently.

user5389107

@user1114 Probably not a good idea to start a political discussion in SE chat

Anonymous

It’s Time To Take A Stand

user5389107

1:29 PM

pls no....

politics are everywhere these days

even on minecraft servers apparently

Journeyman Geek

There's another way to look at it though

A lot of folks choose to interact with others entirely through hostility or trying to provoke a reaction

Derpy

@user5389107 I'd just forgot the latest lets play I was subjected to, you had to remind me. ;_;

Mgetz

@user5389107 sounds like someone that bandies such names at people that may disagree with them regardless of reality

Anonymous

As far as I can tell, that blog post is the only thing Joel did during my time at Stack.

Anonymous

This company is so far gone from having leaders remotely in touch with their users.

Anonymous

1:40 PM

But morality?

Anonymous

theyve

Anonymous

alwys got some morality to throw around.

Anonymous

Well that’s not true

Anonymous

He also gave a bunch of media interviews selling the lie that Stack Overfloe is for everybody so he could sell more Talent subscriptions at the expense of site quality.

Anonymous

He is a faucet of harm.

user5389107

1:48 PM

@user1114 That's a pretty negative view

John Dvorak

I must concede, I can't help but notice the company blog posts tend to invariably get viewed in bad light by the community. Pretty vigorously so, too

user5389107

@JohnDvorak I still think the latest blog post was so poorly recieved because of its framing, not necessarily because of its content

Anonymous

@user5389107 That sentence is mean hyperbole that I regret.

John Dvorak

What content? "Hey, people, don't be rude"? Sure... "We need to tighten moderation because of a few bad apples"? Pls no.

user5389107

@user1114 might want to get a RO to bin it then

Journeyman Geek

1:56 PM

sigh

I can do that for you

But can we take a deep breath, think then do said mean hyperbole please?

user5389107

I imagine Journeyman with this "I'm not mad just disappointed" look in his eyes

Journeyman Geek

I mean, I totally get the history and all

@user5389107 that is something I get a lot

John Dvorak

Do you want us to take an action that would alleviate us from having to trash your messages later today? :P

user5389107

Hey I tried hard to be nice this time :(

Journeyman Geek

@user1114 Unlike you though, we literally have no insight to how SE works at that level

John Dvorak

1:58 PM

@user1114 shareholding

Journeyman Geek

outside what the CMs and devs tell us

And I've literally been in the same shoes as you so, I know its hard

John Dvorak

literally ... shoes? No.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak had an awesome job, mass restructuring overnight.

Mithrandir

I don't even want to know what you were doing in user1114's shoes

Anonymous

oh, to be clear, I bear Stack no ill will for laying me off.

Journeyman Geek

1:59 PM

I literally went from "whoo, this is awesome" to packing my shit and going home in 3 days

user5389107

@Mithrandir he's a dog so probably playing fetch

Anonymous

I was one of the most junior at the company, and remote.

Journeyman Geek

@user1114 totally the same place I was in

Anonymous

Why Oded lost his job, on the other hand, will be a mystery forever.

Anonymous

Since he was incredibly valuable in everything we did.

Anonymous

2:00 PM

He had a massive depth of both community and engineering knowledge.

Journeyman Geek

Eh quite

Anonymous

That annoyed me a lot more than my personal situation.

Journeyman Geek

but we will never know the high level politics involved

Derpy

.... so, I just produced a "depressed" low-tone "Yay" following some intriguing discoveries about a lame bug with angular material, bindings and event emitters....

Anonymous