Tavern on the Meta

But we can fix the lack of knowledge of how stuff works around here

Using flags to fight those comments is like trying to save a burning building by pissing on the fire. It might extinguish the flames a bit, but it won't win the battle and you'll be left with a bad smell.

Because AFAIK, there are Israeli, Iraq, Hongkong, Indonesian, Dutch, German, Singaporean, Australian people here

@ShadowWizard now that's what you're famous for

11:02 AM

(sorry, couldn't remember the rest)

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ LOL! So true.

@hey Iraq? Iran. You just marginalized me

@hey skin colors?

;)

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ aaaaarghh! I'm sorry! I'm sorry! (>_<)

@hey I guess it's one of the most common mistakes, don't take it too hard... it's their fault for having so similar names, and being near each other, not yours. :D

11:04 AM

@hey A crowd with people of more than one gender, in this case.

And there are quite a few people who know their sh!t, but we suck at teaching them how SE works. I know PhD's on Chem complaining about SE's learning curve

I'm sorry for Telkitty...

You know what, I'll just say this flat out: I've always felt marginalized here to a certain extent

@ShadowWizard actually, there's a lot of difference. Iran has few Arabs compared to Arab countries

@SonicWizard you got it here. Reminder: TelKitty, Catija...

11:05 AM

It seems from the recent messages that no one seems to get what it means to be marginalized.

You just marginalized me further

@hey no use apologizing, I'm gonna haunt you on Twitter

@ShadowWizard Catija isn't here, it's 6 AM. This is kind of why I wanted to meet up with her again, so we can discuss this as it's much easier for me to express my thoughts out loud.

@SonicWizard can totally see that, since you have "your way", and you can't be "educated" to act otherwise.

That's not even what I'm talking about.

@SonicWizard uh, yes I do. But again, you can throw a red carpet under marginalized groups and have people still complain about SO

John Dvorak

11:08 AM

I love being able to take a short walk and return to a chatroom full of people having a civil discourse :P

@SonicWizard that's interesting, I'd like to hear the rest of it

Huh, phew. @John can never know we were uncivil behind his back

Whoops

@JohnDvorak better than finding them doing something else ending with "course"...... :P

John Dvorak

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Not unless I read the transcript :P

@ShadowWizard online course in Hyderabad?

11:09 AM

hahah

(See, I'm hesitating already.)

@JohnDvorak we have purged all instances of swearing at you

@SonicWizard you can do it in new room, invite those you want to see.

@ShadowWizard I have a den too

Right, lol. Forgot. :|

11:10 AM

Well, people might disagree, but I don't see a strong reason for you not to post it

Though I won't say it until the crowd is mixed enough

user202362

@hey Sorry for me? lol, how so. My life is interesting enough online and in real life, many interesting projects.

@TelKitty yeah, compared to my boring job... :'(

I'm sorry for @hey who is sorry for @TelKitty who isn't sorry for anyone. :D

My point is something else entirely, @Sonic. I'm not saying there aren't marginalized people. Of course there are. But I'm saying what we should be focusing on is what we suck at, not what we could be better at.

11:13 AM

You can be better at anything you suck at.

Example: me

(in real life)

So, want some opinions here.... think it will be wise idea to create twitter account and reply to that thread @Andras mentioned? I'm in the middle of it, and honestly feels like I do owe apology to her, but... but...

I fully acknowledge I'm biased in this whole discussion btw, I hate being described as marginalized and I hate when other people are offended on my behalf

Not even rationally hate, it makes me irrationally angry

user202362

@ShadowWizard best flattery is imitation, worst punishment is ignore ... but if you are in love with some chick, feel free to reply

OK. Let's fix the racism/sexism/chauvinism problem. How are you planning to do that?

@TelKitty lost you on this one

Jon Skeet Answers Your Questions IRL

11:16 AM

Sarah Caputo on May 01, 2018

In January, Jon Skeet’s rep crossed over one million. To thank him for his generous efforts and contributions, we hosted a brunch in his honor at our New York Headquarters in February. We also asked the community if they had any questions for him to answer in an IRL Q&A.

Please enjoy this delightful interview in which Jon discusses everything from his origin story, to overload resolution, to banana flower pants. We’re immensely grateful for Jon’s continued devotion to the Stack Overflow community, and we hope to give him another free brunch after he earns his next million rep! …

@TelKitty oh no no. Love is toxic. I won't go there. :D

user202362

I am wasting too much time on this, I need to do my daily jog :p

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ what about it?

I'm now imagining his replies

oh, video is fixed!

11:17 AM

Honestly, I don't even know if I'm being marginalized... my self-ignorance is too darn big.

THERE IS NO HOPE FOR HUMANS

PROCESS 'TERMINATE HUMAN.bat' EXECUTED

That's how it works, right?

@ShadowWizard it might be a decent thing to do.

I've passed though many phases where my self-awareness defeated me up until having suicididal thoughts.

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Are you a sock of Musk? ;)

@ShadowWizard to Wensel? Why?

@ShadowWizard no, Jon is the AI behind musk

11:19 AM

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ I kind of started that dicussion she was ranting about

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Lenon?

@ShadowWizard huh, which one?

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ from the screenshot she posted. Activate your proxy...

@ShadowWizard Skeet, grrr. I thought only fish had memories of mere seconds :p

I find your joke fishy

And suggest we swim to another line of conversation

lol

11:22 AM

@ShadowWizard just give me a link

8 messages deleted

Let's keep this civil, okay?

Whoa cool

And guys. I know a lot of folks are upset and we deal with this by snark. And us geeks care little for optics but it's worth thinking of how people percieve us. I had a long tweet thread defending the role of chat yesterday and... Erf :(

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ tweet or screenshot used in the tweet?

@ShadowWizard oh, you mean she used a discussion you were in as an example of hostility? I don't want a link to that

11:24 AM

This is why we can’t have nice things.

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ yup

Meh

It was posted already, that's what started this... thing... here. :)

@JourneymanGeek mistake 1: using twitter

And this wasn't supposed to be about her tweets or blog posts

11:25 AM

ignore it, it's a poisonous and reductive website and has done more damage to human discourse then any other in the past decade

@user5389107 it was civil and I felt some good came out of it.

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ But it's all about it, everywhere...

@user5389107 Facebook is worse

@ShadowWizard facebook isn't so ubiquitous

@JourneymanGeek doubtful, considering it's twitter

And really if you want to deal with people making appeals to people in power, you gotta show folks the best side of us.

@JourneymanGeek come on, it was never gonna get that dirty anyway cc @JNat. We've been here for years, we know how stuff works around here

11:27 AM

@user5389107 eh. It clearly has had an effect.

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ the messages I deleted were already that dirty :)

And I'm not a geek in the way you are

Twitter was good as long as people just shared their food, cat pics, etc. But when it became a platform to "discuss" serious things, guess it took a bad turn.

So, outside Twitter and SE's blog (and probably Medium), how far this impression of SO being unwelcoming have gone?

@JourneymanGeek Imo considering the allegations people make against us, snark is the most polite way of reaction you can expect. I'm actually impressed right now, I would have expected way worse

11:28 AM

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ well, the complaints never really had a focal point before.

Sure SO meta is a battleground and the community is tearing itself apart very quickly, but I would have expected it to be quicker

@user5389107 and by doing that we feed those allegations

When the company behind the community is so blatantly siding with outside trolls over their members

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: How to create bitcoin wallet by PHP by Kevin on bitcoin.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad pattern in URL answer: Help Desk Software? by kevin0isaac on softwarerecs.SE

So? We show em we're better than that.

11:29 AM

@hey only a big poll can answer that.

@JourneymanGeek well, I've seen some of the examples, and they were like someone finding two bad things and pointing to ten more neutral things to further their point

@JourneymanGeek High road is nice in concept but most of the time unpractical

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ and we can reduce the bad things

Especially when the people making the allegations clearly will never be satisfied until they're given complete control over the site

OK, I'm used to the culture, so I might be blind to how some things can be unwelcoming

11:30 AM

oh great, I forgot to eat.

This is what this is. People are fighting because that's what it is: a fight over stack overflow

@JourneymanGeek we can, if we're not baited by this topic every seconds.

@user5389107 that's what I try to take. Might be worth trying. What do we have to lose?

@JourneymanGeek legitimizing people who want nothing but to harm our site

@hey because we care, and we let ourselves.

11:31 AM

But a much easier fix to that is teaching people about the culture, not telling people who have no idea what's wrong not to do it

At some point we need to go "no, and you're not making a good faith argument, so go away and don't come back"

@user5389107 disarming them and taking away their ability to hurt us on our terms.

Teaching people that we're not downvoting them, but their post

I'm utterly unconvinced of any positive motives of the people who are dragging SO through the dirt like that

And as a result I don't think we can deal with them in the way we resolve internal disputes, which is by assuming good faith

@user5389107 We're not being dragged through the dirt — we are unfriendly for most people.

@user5389107 and this is a perfect way for an online community to shrivel and die

11:34 AM

@JNat So you think being accused of being a racist and sexist shithole for having quality standards isn't that?

@user5389107 Is commenting with LMGTFY and other such unconstructive comments "having quality standards?"

@user5389107 they probably think the same of us.

I've read through hundreds of twitter threads and several dozen blogposts and I've yet to see any substantial argument that isn't "I feel this way" which is utterly pointless to even express

So see, back to the main problem of missing the point, and sticking to unactionable stuff

@user5389107 I have a lot to say on this topic, as one who was marginalized (elsewhere)...I'll discuss this in Sonic's Den once there's a mixed crowd.

11:35 AM

I'm all for being civil, but if every seconds there are discussions about this... I guess it's really the best to just blacklist MSO, MSE, Twitter, and other sources for now

@JNat It might be too snarky for comfort, but it's nowhere near a sexist racist shithole

(and possibly chat.SE too)

I never argued for more snarky comments, I just disagree that this is an urgent problem to solve or has anything to do with group dynamics

There are snarky comments on posts from people whose aim wasn't to dump their homework, and who care about feedback. This is what needs to be fixed. It has lots of room for improvement unlike the isms issues, and it's what needs to be discussed.

@user5389107 have you considered the possibility that there's a lot you oversee because you're not on the other end of these comments?

11:38 AM

@JNat Considering I'm in two groups (not by choice) that routinely get described as marginalized and also routinely target of insults based on my weak points on other sites, I don't think so

Experiment: the most recent 100 comments on SO (courtesy to our super Normal Human)

I also read through bluefeet's dump of rude comments and most of what I see there is either mild snark or question askers getting rude

How does this relate to Serilog? — jmdon 1 min ago

Example of a nonrude comment perceived as rude?

And that's the problem with perceiving... I remember there's an answer on MSO explaining how a comment's tone would be read by an upper boss, or a teacher.

Taryn

@user5389107 I've been the receiving end of plenty of sexist comments over the years. We even discussed something similar back in 2014.

11:44 AM

@Taryn And I get told roughly once a day on reddit that I'm being an autistic freak. That doesn't mean reddit as a whole has a problem with people being unwelcoming to people with mental illnesses

That just means people who want to hurt will use your weak points to hurt

OOT: so the source of the problem is with English language. If we used gender-neutral pronounce language, then this wouldn't happen.

@user5389107 that, and that reddit is not equipped to deal with these users — so the platform as a whole is indeed unwelcoming, since "the people who want to hurt" can simply... just hurt others.

Alternatively, reddit is equipped to deal with this, but the people don't — in which case, the platform is still unwelcoming

@JNat Who's running the survey that's linked in that blog post?

@SonicWizard we are. Not sure who exactly will go through all the answers, if that's what you mean

@JNat No, I mean who's the employee responsible for choosing who gets a 1-on-1 chat, and so on?

11:53 AM

@SonicWizard Dunno :\

Why?

@JNat Because I want to be more likely to be chosen for the 1-on-1 chat

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad pattern in URL answer: Customer support ticketing software by kevin0isaac on superuser.com

@SonicWizard Just share what you wanna share :) don't take it personally if you're not picked.

I've been complaining about inclusivity long before April Wensel's Medium post came out, and I've felt overall marginalized in quite a lot of places. Also, since I rejoined Stack Exchange in December 2017 after leaving three years earlier, I've been loath to participate in SO again because I don't like the direction where it's headed.

@JNat As I said, I'll do so in Sonic's Den, but only in front of a sufficiently mixed crowd.

(as in of more than one gender)

@SonicWizard I meant in the survey, not in chat — the former is private ;)

11:57 AM

I want to share this out in public

(By the way, while I wasn't the "mole" who alerted April to the presence of those chat messages, I very well could have been, if I was in the room at the time it took place.)

1 hour ago, by Journeyman Geek

Its public chat folks

Who is April ? The 4th month in a calendar year.

April can be a person's name too...

Didn't know that.

As can "May", "June", "September", and possibly others

12:02 PM

December should be a nice name as we have Christmas in that month.

Q: We're More Aggressively Enforcing Self-Moderation In Chat

104

While the timing of this post coincides with us expressing some serious concerns around how we're not doing a good job of helping and guiding Stack Overflow to remain a welcoming place for everyone, this is something that's been weighing heavily on our minds for quite some time, and applicable to...

Note to some: If you find yourself unable to chat for a few weeks, please contact support so that they can refer you to the above stated policy.

9

@TimPost It's not something totally new, Is it ?

What happened earlier, calling out April and then talking about her in the way that happened was not okay.

2

And if I need to tell adult people that sort of behavior is not okay, I'd rather not have those people participating here. I speak for the company.

4

Alright

Suspensions are being handed out now. Further escalation will result in the suspensions carrying over to the entire network. Harassment of anyone involved, on or off the site, will likely lead to you being removed completely. Harassment of someone due to their participation (or lack of) on our sites is a very serious thing.

2

12:08 PM

I guess I'm getting one :/

I didn't intend to harass, just for the record. I'm sorry if it came across that way

@Shadow I think you've been one of those people as well

sd delete

I'm feeling strongly about this whole situation because I'm one of the people affected by it and I always have a strong reaction to people claiming to speak for me... If anything I've said was harassing in any way I apologize in advance and will accept the consequences

I guess, sometimes, "Silence is golden"

sd delete

12:16 PM

Hi?

swooosh!

@JourneymanGeek hm?

Ah just checking.

@JourneymanGeek If you were affected?

Your internet connection is waaaay better than mine （｀ω´）

12:18 PM

Ashamed to know this, but it'll reload the chat window automatically and display a box in place of the message window

(I was suspended by shog for a week on chat.SO like two years ago)

@JourneymanGeek Hey

Naw. Didn't expect to be but...

Hi

@JourneymanGeek idk anymore tbh

Just in case...

I'm not sure I deserve one or not, I did have some choice words but I'm also not sure if I was rude anywhere

If I ever become rude and anyone notices, do point out pls...

12:21 PM

Also i missed most of that.

collecting data might take 6 to 8 ...

sometimes I lose myself in heated discussions especially when the topic hits close to my heart

I can still chat. I CAN STILL CHAT

Tim DP became blurred now . How ????

It's always worth taking a step back for perspective

12:22 PM

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Yay! Congrats

Wait, I was only ever mean to Mith, and Journeyman

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ could be that they're just going through the transcript with a fine tooth comb and haven't been completly through yet

on a completly unrelated note. Is idownvotedbecau.se considered rude if used in a comment now?

Because it probably comes across as that

Well, if stuff gets deleted and SE staff pops in the room, something went off-track

^

We all missed that, me included

12:25 PM

I'm not sure exactly which time period or post(s) they're talking about, but I'll find out if I get a ban or not

If it's not me then I certainly missed it too

uhh, there are some chat users who I've never seen before on the list?

Should we get scared because of our old deeds (which I am not sure about.) ?

Oh, um, okay. I just now checked the tweet.

@hey My first message in this chat:

Jun 25 '14 at 7:20, by TheLittleNaruto

Heya Guys

I'd rather not comment

@TheLittleNaruto flags as rude

12:28 PM

Jesus D:

"Heya" is a racial slur in Klingon

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ wot.

Is there any planet left to live ?

@TheLittleNaruto sure. Have you watched Interstellar?

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Not yet, But I watched "Alter Carbon"

12:30 PM

Oh, haven't watched it/them

What's the appropriate pronoun to use with TV shows?

It's a TV Series, You must if you haven't already.

@TheLittleNaruto I watch a lot of movies, but not TV shows

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ "it" is fine. But will look good with "this one or this TV Series"

I have to watch Westworlds first

Or was it Westworld?

@TheLittleNaruto I know, I was kidding

:/

12:32 PM

@hey a-ha! looking for messages to flag

Time to go home. later o/

@TheLittleNaruto Actually, Earth wouldn't be a bad place. But you would need someone to cast Nirvana on it beforehand....

@TheLittleNaruto Cya

@Derpy Mr. Google says it's a rock band, so I'm not sure that's a great idea

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ do you "cast" a rock band?

Of course

12:34 PM

I am referring to a spell.

A spell pertaining to a rock band?

Wizard singer would be interesting

casting a band of rocks

@hey That pun got off to a rocky start

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Read Death Gate. You get singing and dancing. The The Wishsong of Shannara is another option.

@TimPost Are suspended users still notified of chat pings?

12:36 PM

Yes, I believe that they are.

@SonicWizard I guess they're not suspended after a while, so yeah

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ That said, no, rock bands are not involved. But I'll give you an hint.

John Dvorak

Excellent way to annoy someone

@Derpy *a hint

@TimPost So I can still ping Shadow with chaos-emerald-pls requests?

12:37 PM

that is of most importance

@JohnDvorak why do you think I wanna become a mod?

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ shall we discuss "It was I who did it"?

anyway, think about @bjb568. Then give him wings.

@Derpy the prescriptivist crap borrowed from Latin?

@SonicWizard That's something you'd need to discuss with them. I can't really talk about the suspension beyond the notices that I posted :)

@TimPost your mug is too in-your-face

12:40 PM

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Well, if I move it, my lap gets really warm

@TimPost Since there has been no action regarding your post about the survey for users who post off-topic questions on Meta, I'm thinking of restarting my survey

Hah, now I remember Tom and Jerry when Tom's face got stuck in a mug

Tim and Jerry

@SonicWizard We're in the middle of collecting a lot of feedback, I'm sorry that I haven't updated you (it's just been a whirlwind). There will be a survey that we officially launch regarding meta in general (not just O/T stuff) coming out as soon as we finish collecting a lot of data from what we linked in the last blog post

But please don't re-start an unofficial survey, it would likely need to be shut down especially considering GDPR coming up and updates to our ToS around that getting ready to be announced and go live

@TimPost I understand that you can't talk about this, but can you clarify which messages and which conduct specifically you were referring to in your notice? The one that sparked the tweet, or anything specifically afterwards. Further, assuming I'm not suspended, do I still have to re-examine my approach to discussion here, are there any warnings being given out?

I'm not aching to provide more munition against stack exchange if I can help it

@user5389107 Not mentioning specific messages, but Shadow has a long history of making fun of April Wensel ever since that Medium post came about.

12:44 PM

@user5389107 It was (what I hope most could identify as) the worst of what was called out. I hope I don't have to get too much more descriptive there, but a line was crossed from avid disagreement with to complete objectification and humiliation of someone.

I think we should just talk about ice cream now

Criticizing is generally okay, as long as it's within our be-nice policy. Saying you don't agree with April is fine. Treating another human being like a piece of roast meat that catches drool from onlookers is not freaking fine.

2

@TimPost So you were probably talking about worse things then calling someone a troll

I should dial that back anyways

Or more objective ways of making SO more welcoming

@user5389107 the suspension has been given, you're not suspended. Chill...

12:46 PM

@hey wait, chilling is the same as suspension

Any employee mind cleaning up from here: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/6913518#6913518

You're being confusing

I don't think calling someone's behavior out as seeming trollish is against our policy. I feel like you're trolling here - that's actually feedback someone might use to dial their own stuff back a bit.

user202362

why does it feel like it's about someone else ... I MUST be hallucinating ~_~

@user5389107 hey, no, my messages are good stuff

12:46 PM

@TimPost I had a mini heart attack there

It's easy to get lost in your own perspective and slip into un-niceness without noticing

@TelKitty yes, you're terribly slacking off

If you talk about people, just make sure that person wouldn't find it insulting if they came back to look at it later. This is a public chat that gets indexed by search engines

Some conversations should probably just happen somewhere else.

Side note: autocrat hates me. It changed "objective" up there into "invective"

I can think of a few invective ways to make SO welcoming

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[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer, username similar to website in answer: Peergroup download of the blockchain stalls? by AlKasir Portal on bitcoin.SE

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ that's... so wrong D:

user202362

12:49 PM

but how do I know if someone would find something offensive?

@TelKitty in real life? If they're trying to hit you with a cricket bat

@SmokeDetector K

user202362

no one ever hit me with a cricket bat yet

@TelKitty If they tell you "HEY THAT'S OFFENSIVE!" it's a really good sign.

Whoa, I just realized again Bitcoin is 7 years old

@SmokeDetector F meh

user202362

@TimPost If they tell it to my face, I would apologize, but if they look angry 5 hours later, then I can't really be sure ... just saying ...

user202362

12:52 PM

I mean I get it and ... but there is also this 2% doubt

@TelKitty whoa, you set off a time insult that goes off after five hours?

@TelKitty you doubting yourself? Get out of town

As long as people remain sensitive to others and reel it in if it looks like someone feels hurt or offended, well, that's how adults get along. You can't always avoid rubbing someone the wrong way.

I'm always weary about expressing when something offends me

"WAIT A MINUTE. THAT'S WHAT SHE ACTUALLY MEANT"

Because my notions of what's offensive aren't usually shared with most other people

12:54 PM

If the worst thing people had to say about chat culture was "They can sometimes say mean things but they're sensitive to others and try to be welcoming" -- MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

And to be clear, that's over 95% of chat now.

@TimPost chat? You mean our chat?

user202362

... not be insensitive in anyways ... but a lot of people are here because they try to avoid such situation in real life ... like surely people have thicker skins on the internet ... otherwise ... maybe they have already been driven off somewhere else online ... just saying ...

I'm also weary talking about what makes me have negative experiences on here and what hurts me when I read it, because I'm not normal and I don't get to burden people with my issues

user202362

... like people here ... are usually not social butterflies in real life ... or can't be bothered to put effort into becoming one ... they are here ... err ... because they are comfortable here ...

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Yeah. Our chat tends to be much more civil than other public chat systems. I think it being gated by needing a small amount of participation has a lot to do with that, and loss aversion (the fear of consequences to things they've invested time in acting as a last step check against blowing their tops) has a lot to do with it.

user202362

12:59 PM

lounge is dead, I know it probably does not matter to SE ... but that's just applying the rule to ONE chatroom