Tavern on the Meta

12:00 PM

in Shadow's Den, yesterday, by TheLittleNaruto

@PrincessLuna You need some kind of enlightenment.

@ShadowWizard that just proof that ponies aren't meant to live in shadowy cave-like dens but should instead be eating cupcake in a nice pastry store with happy music, streamers, confetti-cannons and balloons

Shadow Wizard

@Derpy I can put happy music, streamers, confetti-cannons and balloons in Den. It's all matter of demand. (and budget)

D.Hutchinson

12:30 PM

@Taryn was my question about Ana leaving and whether Stack Overflow was having layoffs delete-worthy? 🤔

Journeyman Geek

@D.Hutchinson It makes people sad.

I actually noticed ana's announcement on her moving on a while before it turned up here and... didn't seem right to bring it up then.

Taryn

@D.Hutchinson it was closed and honestly there is nothing to talk about

D.Hutchinson

@JourneymanGeek ah, I see - I hadn't checked the date of the tweet ...

@Taryn alright, cool ...

Shadow Wizard

Well, goodbye posts appear to be fine, e.g. Jeff, waffles, sklivvz, and probably more... but asking "has [put name here] been fired?!" is indeed a bad idea. @D.Hutchinson

Journeyman Geek

.... wait, whut? :(

Shadow Wizard

12:38 PM

what whut?

Journeyman Geek

Not a nice way to word things

Shadow Wizard

Also, what Ana? this one appears just fine...

rene

@ShadowWizard There is nothing to talk about but go looking for her tweets and let's move on

Shadow Wizard

@rene yeah, saw it just now. Well, indeed nothing that should be discussed in public, and looks like it's done in good terms anyway (Unlike past cases) so all is good.

HTTPS

I got Captcha when performing Google search (´・ω・｀)

Shadow Wizard

12:52 PM

@JNat hey, can you please confirm this is true? I'm pretty sure it is, but you know... in case I'm wrong would be happy to know that. :)

@HTTPS me too... happens often when searching from two browser sessions almost in same time.

(so Google thinks same IP is used by two different people or something)

HTTPS

and I got a cold... but my behavior on welcoming users/commenting got better... does that mean that getting sick improve the feeling of being a human?

Shadow Wizard

@HTTPS yes ;)

high fever affects the way we think, actually. Think I saw such question on SE somewhere....

rene

I think we should get stats on how many users deleted their account after you left them a comment.

Shadow Wizard

:(

aka "toxic meter"!

rene

That is a good name, yes

Mithrandir

1:02 PM

well, apparently the chat top bar broke now

HTTPS

@Mithrandir more detail, pls? (since I'm also using it)

Shadow Wizard

feature-request badge-request toxic: cause a bad user to delete their account by posting a comment on one of their posts.

HTTPS

(or is this the top bar on the chat main page, not Jason's userscript??)

Mithrandir

padding broke

Shadow Wizard

yeah

Most likely due to this bug fix, so blame @balpha :)

HTTPS

1:06 PM

@Mithrandir erf, no repro on Chrome 65, Windows 10... hmm...

Mithrandir

the inbox is also broken

HTTPS

let's assume I still got the correct "cached" CSS then...

Shadow Wizard

@HTTPS sure? Did you check here? Try CTRL+F5 to clear cache

robbing @Rob

Mithrandir

HTTPS

:/ (already refresh, ctrl+f5, shift+f5, refreshing while "disable cache" on developer tools on)

Shadow Wizard

1:12 PM

@Mithrandir looks worthy of bug report on MSE then. :)

rene

1:43 PM

@Mithrandir I have that as well ...

do we share userscripts that we both run?

HTTPS

Am I the only chosen one who didn't get the CSS fixed (and bug)!?

Is this related to teams again..?

rene

@HTTPS oh, good call

HTTPS

But @Shadow also got... is he a member of any Teams?

Mithrandir

it's not SOUP

it's not SOX

HTTPS

Certainly not SOUP nor SE Chat Modifications.

rene

1:46 PM

I have disabled all userscripts and I can still repro

I don't have any errors in the console

HTTPS

- https://cdn-chat.sstatic.net/chat/css/chat.meta.stackexchange.com.css?v=b38d3b2a63e1
- https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jqueryui/1.12.1/themes/smoothness/jquery-ui.css
- https://cdn-chat.sstatic.net/chat/css/chat.meta.stackexchange.com.css?v=b38d3b2a63e1
- https://cdn.sstatic.net/shared/topbar/topbar.css

are the CSS files that I got, according to "network" tab (filtered by CSS) on Chrome' Dev Tools

rene

2:02 PM

@HTTPS what I notice is that topbar.css doesn't have a cache-breaker. That is true for me as well but it is something that stands out

HTTPS

2:15 PM

¯\_(⊙︿⊙)_/¯

Shadow Wizard

@rene no userscripts, no Teams, yes for padding bug /cc #HTTPS

Hashtag HTTPS

#ping #alternative

C##

nope

#C#

@HTTPS NSFW!

(the "b" word!)

OK, soup is ready, going to eat with with the dumplings I made at night.

yum yum

HTTPS

2:23 PM

@ShadowWizard weeeeird... that means my cache is brokenly borked...

Shadow Wizard

@HTTPS SE use some weird cache host which serve files based on location, maybe it serve the new files only to Europe zone, not Asia

HTTPS

@ShadowWizard o well, RO can move it if they want ._.

Shadow Wizard

@HTTPS nah, think @rene is fine with that. ;)

JNat

@ShadowWizard looks like animuson answered it in the meantime

rene

You could have used the rep ...

Shadow Wizard

2:30 PM

@JNat yeah, he's faster than you! ;)

Sonic Wizard

@Taryn Nice, but as I said, I'm asking for employees who didn't start moderating a site until they gained moderator privileges purely through staff rights

(By the way, on Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation employees are required to use a separate accounts for work and non-work purposes, to differentiate whether actions are being taken through their personal volunteer capacity or as an official staff member)

Shadow Wizard

@SonicWizard -1 SE isn't Wikipedia. ;)

Sonic Wizard

@ShadowWizard Of course it isn't, here SE employees can moderate a site purely though staff rights

There, it would be weird to use a work account (clearly identified in the username as such) to administrate a site.

HTTPS

I think I'll create a separate account called "HTTPS for work"...

and "How HTTPS feel as a new user"...

Sonic Wizard

On the flip side, it's the anonymous editor's birthday in one week

Shadow Wizard

2:38 PM

@HTTPS HTTPS 101 For Dummies

@SonicWizard nice!

huh, @ani "stole" an answer! meta.stackexchange.com/posts/308930/revisions

Sonic Wizard

@ShadowWizard Shog once posted an answer, then reattributed it to @Taryn

I think this was on MSO

Shadow Wizard

@SonicWizard now that's real magic

@ani "just" redacted the first revision, thus appearing as the answer author

Sonic Wizard

And that user's votes were detected as serial votes and reversed

But on my rep history, I don't see a "voting corrected" statement, just in my achevements

Never mind, it showed up

Actually, wait, they weren't detected as serial votes, otherwise they would have been reversed at 03:00 UTC, when the script runs. Because my flags against the user were marked helpful at the same time, I'm guessing the votes were manually reversed by staff.

Shadow Wizard

2:58 PM

@SonicWizard what? Who? Where?

Sonic Wizard

@ShadowWizard The one I "muzed" on about earlier

Shadow Wizard

@SonicWizard it was about Shog and bluefeet, which of them you refer as "that user"?

Really better give context, not just expect us to read back and try to figure out. :/ @Journeyman yes you too! ;)

Sonic Wizard

19 hours ago, by Sonic Wizard

I just got harassed over my vote to close a question as a duplicate

Read on from there

Shadow Wizard

@SonicWizard you continue something you started 19 hours ago out of the blue, and expect us to magically understand... sigh

Sonic Wizard

Maybe that's why I love replies so much...

@SmokeDetector fp-

@rene Great, I meant tp, now how do I change it? :)

Shadow Wizard

3:08 PM

@SonicWizard via Charcoal room, think it's never deleted from there

Sonic Wizard

@ShadowWizard There's a 5-minute delay between posting a message here vs. CHQ, and during that time many more messages could be posted

Shadow Wizard

@SonicWizard so? Just find the same report there, and reply to it with correct feedback

Anonymous

@SonicWizard There is a "Guide to Moderation for New Employees", but maybe that was more for the earlier days.

Shadow Wizard

It will change your existing feedback

@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe PDF format? ;)

Anonymous

Google Docs, of course!

Shadow Wizard

3:12 PM

heh

Lucky not wordpress

I love the concept of "Valued Associate" that was in place back in the olden days... wonder if anyone can point when it stopped, i.e. who is the last Valued Associate? @bro might know those things... :)

Probably it stopped when Jeff left?

Anonymous

@SonicWizard There are a non-zero number of moderation actions performed by never-moderator employees, but they're usually just deleting obvious spam/abuse/noise. These days I don't think they'd have the moral authority to moderate anything tricky.

Anonymous

@ShadowWizard :(

Anonymous

Feb 06 2012: Jeff leaves Stack.

Anonymous

Jan 26 2012: Second-last "Valued Associate" welcome, for Adam, with the last one being from Shog later that year

Anonymous

Seems like you're right (unless I've missed some deleted posts).

Glorfindel

3:24 PM

!!/alive

Sonic Wizard

@Glorfindel What happened?

SmokeDetector

3:37 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Why is subcoalgebra structure unique? by ID10T on mathoverflow.net

Glorfindel

3:48 PM

@SonicWizard like usual, if Smokey doesn't respond something ... eh ... broke, and we retreat to Charcoal HQ to solve it. Lots of details there.

Sonic Wizard

sd why

SmokeDetector

[:6867786] Post manually reported by user *Glorfindel* in room *Charcoal HQ*.

This post would not have been caught otherwise.

Anonymous

4:02 PM

There is no content-based tool to deal with one user harassing another. This insistence that this is not a social network, therefore we don't have social network problems, is just ignoring real issues. We need to pull our heads out of the sand. — Bill the Lizard Apr 12 at 13:43

Catija

The problem with a tool like that is that people will simply ignore users they disagree with rather than ones they are being harassed by.

Comment chains become extremely difficult to follow if you can't see what everyone is saying... someone asking you for clarification on a post goes unheard... I don't really see how this could work well on this network.

John Dvorak

Isn't this already happening? "Please clarify what you meant by baz" - "Go away if you don't want to help"

Anonymous

@Catija We have an ignore feature in chat, where it's also very potentially confusing, but I still use it semi-frequently for users who are very annoying or constantly negative.

Catija

@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe Chat is not really what the network is for, though... I've seen a couple of users who have tons of people on ignore... and it sort of disturbs me... but chat is chat...

Anonymous

> The problem with a tool like that is that people will simply ignore users they disagree with rather than ones they are being harassed by.

Anonymous

4:17 PM

This seems like a minor and hypothetical concern, while users being upset by patterns of behaviour from other users is a significant and real concern.

Anonymous

Generally, as a user, I am very unhappy with any website these days that doesn't give me a way to filter user-generated content like this.

Catija

@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe Seems like the solution there is to suspend the harasser...

Anonymous

@Catija That is only a solution if we can have a universal consensus on problematic behaviour, and near-instantaneous moderation.

Anonymous

I mean, to be sure, that is an ideal part of the outcome.

Anonymous

But as a reason to not give users the power to control what upsetting content we show them, it's not strong enough.

HTTPS

4:26 PM

Well, if we do implement that feature, I just want to make it transparent to the ignored users that they are being ignored, so that they won't waste any time replying to the wind/wall.

Anonymous

Vetoed.

Anonymous

That's a classic anti-pattern that provokes harassment.

Catija

So... someone puts someone else on ignore, that person has no clue what's going on, the abuse continues but since the person ignoring them can't see it, the abuse just sits around on the site ?

Anonymous

That's bad compared with an ideal outcome, but I think the more realistic comparison is
"Someone is abusive, the victim feels powerless to avoid it, and leaves the site. The abuse just sits around."

HTTPS

New users will as often ignore "bully" as experienced users ignore "uncooperative" users.

Anonymous

4:28 PM

They already do that.

Anonymous

Look at the site we actually have. It is not a place of instant moderation and universally responsive users.

HTTPS

So... should we ignore, or should we flag abusive users, or both?

Anonymous

As a new user you do not have the option to raise flags.

Anonymous

Nobody is saying that we, experienced community members who understand how things work, should not flag abusive users, or that we should ignore them.

Anonymous

As a new user on a site, I generally assume that flags are not taken seriously, if I am even aware they exist, and if I can even use them.

Anonymous

4:33 PM

That's not a realistic solution for them.

HTTPS

Then I think it's better to go to the source of the problem: Give 1-rep user a privilege to flag for mod attention, and show it as a tool that can be trusted to them.

Anonymous

That also requires the new user to be confident enough in our community guidelines (which are not clearly defined in any case) to raise a flag and draw more attention to the post that they're probably insecure about.

Anonymous

like

Anonymous

Look at this from a user acquisition and retention angle.

Anonymous

You do not want to place burdens of deep understanding or confidence on new users, because they will often just leave.

Anonymous

4:40 PM

I am not saying, as some staff seem to imply, that Stack should be the site for everybody.

Anonymous

Certainly, we do want to bounce many people.

Anonymous

But are these the reasons that we want to do that? I don't think so.

HTTPS

I certainly don't want to bounce those people, but many users come without any expectation on how SE supposed to work.

Anonymous

I'm not sure what the specific concern is; I don't think it's the users who would have been receptive to helpful comments who would now choose to block those comments instead.

Anonymous

7

Q: Stack Snippets Appears to be Down

When running a snippet I am getting: Server Error in '/' Application. Runtime Error Description: An application error occurred on the server. The current custom error settings for this application prevent the details of the application error from being viewed remotely (for security reas...

HTTPS

4:50 PM

Sorry, my mind drifted to "expectation from new users" instead of "ignoring users".

Anonymous

I was getting a little broad and vague.

Anonymous

I do hope they can improve the onboarding experience to help more new users understand expectations, for everybody's sake.

HTTPS

I just curious how "ignore user" on main site would be implemented then. I'm thinking of a potential issue of: a kind, experienced user has a bad day and "bully" the user, then gets ignored. On another day, the experienced user meets the same user on another problematic question and kindly provides a suggestion to improve... but ignored. Other users think that the user is not responsive to the kind suggestion.

Anonymous

Silly idea: merge flag and mute for new users, and clear the mute once the flag is handled (in either direction).

rene

5:05 PM

I would almost think the initial idea to have no comments at all might be worth reconsidering.

HTTPS

Halp! Code not workz!

This is my code...

(long wall of code)

Contact me on Skype here for clarification.... or just post the answer there, kthxbye! :)

D.Hutchinson

@bro are you still active around math.se? 🤔

rene

@HTTPS but if we can make triage work (and the cvq) ....

Catija

5:21 PM

@rene that would probably lead to lots of deleted answers.

@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe I don't think that's bad, actually... particularly if there's a specific flag for it.

A lot of the issues I see is people being unable to disengage. It's why I keep asking for a comment lock.

D.Hutchinson

@Catija I think sometimes people sense that there's favoritism for a few, often higher-repped users, and whether that's real or not ... I'm not sure ...

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer: Проблема с графическим проектом Corelа by georg.romanov on ru.stackoverflow.com

rene

@Catija is that a bad thing? Is it worse then a lot of deleted comments?

Catija

@rene it's infinitely easier to delete comments than answers.

rene

but answers can be deleted by the community, comments can't. The community scales better.

Sonic Wizard

5:35 PM

@rene Yes they can. 3 comment flags automatically deletes a comment.

(more if the comment has upvotes, but still)

Anonymous

3

A: Add the ability to ignore users

2018 Answer: We're going to consider this. This didn't make as much sense in 2009 as it does today mostly because in 2009, people came here for the rules; they were fed up with other platforms where the noise far outweighed the signal and at that time a little abrasiveness, even when kinda obse...

Sonic Wizard

@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe Why did you get rid of little Quackie?

Anonymous

@SonicWizard I was trying to switch my name and avatar back by setting from the QC "private" beta, which did not work, but I decided to go ahead and at least return to my recognizable avatar.

Anonymous

I was getting confused by other people's meta-names so it seemed polite.

Sonic Wizard

6:29 PM

And I've now received three upvotes, which I strongly believe are from the same guy who serially downvoted me just earlier, since they occurred at the same time and two of those votes were on posts they had serially downvoted earlier.

I'm a principled hedgehog, so I'll report them, and hopefully he knows that voting against proper rationales isn't allowed, even if you manage to evade the initial police.

user315433

As long as there's an option to preemptively ignore users with less than x reputation, that will be useful.

user315433

Including a benefit to those with low reputation themselves: if A does not see B, they are not going to leave snarky comments on the posts by B.

SmokeDetector

7:01 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in title: Live[-TV\]..Brighton vs Tottenham live stream FREE: How To Watch Soccer Watch by kmsomun on civicrm.SE

SmokeDetector

7:13 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in title, blacklisted user: [FOX.TV\]\*!!@ Tottenham vs Brighton Live Stream 2018/04/17 by kmsomun on civicrm.SE

rene

Can someone with 10K tell me what I should have done better here? I think I'm far from rude but obviously I need to work on my wording. I can use some guidance.

Sonic Wizard

7:28 PM

@rene I'm good with wording (as you may know), but I'm <10k.

Screenshot please?

rene

@SonicWizard here you go i.stack.imgur.com/0iiT0.png, it is the -4 answer

Sonic Wizard

@rene The one you're referring to doesn't sound quite rude (but it's borderline rude), but your comment on the answer above it does sound rude.

rene

well, okay. thanks, I'll be more carefull

user343082

Just a guess: The fact that you did this on meta, where most people aresn't as worried about quality is probably what triggerred the backlash,.

Sonic Wizard

@rene I'd recommend this wording: "Please do not post a redundant answer. Upvoting an existing answer is also a good way to express your enthusiasm and congratulations."

@DoritoStyle I agree, that's true

rene

7:36 PM

@DoritoStyle there is sure a different feel for how I comment on meta and elsewhere.

Mithrandir24601

@rene From my point of view, it's essentially a statement that the answer is a 'duplicate answer'. From my point of view, such a statement is not, of itself, rude, any more than saying 'this question is a potential duplicate of [x]' would be rude

rene

@SonicWizard that would be nice. I missed an opportunity to make someone feel comfortable.

@Mithrandir24601 yeah, I think we all agree that the gist of the message is Ok-ish, just how I put that into words went wrong.

Sonic Wizard

Is Ano2 at it again?

user315433

> You guys are mean and don't let me succeed. I wish i can take my revenge one day with the same intensity. -- Abhishek S at 10:53 AM - 17 Apr 2018

πάντα ῥεῖ

7:54 PM

<= Ducks and covers ...

Shadow Wizard

@rene not rude, but I can totally see the confusion. The meta post appear to ask people to thank the new mods personally.

Better close this, and maybe create a chat room for all the personal "congrats", linking to it from Shog's annocement.

@πάνταῥεῖ no more ducks here

@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe too late, QC went out of private beta mode long days ago.

rene

@ShadowWizard mjahwahgf OK

Shadow Wizard

@rene klofkgfd to you too! ;)

rene

:D

Catija

8:43 PM

Helooooo?

... sorry... chat wasn't working for me...

user315433

@ShadowWizard Site status should not matter. My most recent name change was on Islam.SE

user315433

It was enough that my site profile there was created after the previous name change. (So, there were no previous name changes that that site was aware of.)

user315433

However, it's possible there is some special-case code that enables this bug only for normal humans.

user315433

Typing "that that" always feels like I'm doing English wrong.

Sonic Wizard

In later versions of Word, Microsoft exempted "that that" from the "repeated word" spelling and grammar check

user315433

8:57 PM

> Gucci Gucci, Louis Louis, Fendi Fendi, Prada

user315433

No spellcheck underlines here.

user315433

Where did the comments go on this question?. A big forum in the sky, presumably.

user315433

List of expressions related to death

Theis a list of words and phrases related to death in alphabetical order. While some of them are slang, others euphemize the unpleasantness of the subject, or are used in formal contexts. Some of the phrases may carry the meaning of 'kill', or simply contain words related to death. Most of them are idioms. == See also == Dead Parrot sketch; contains many euphemisms for dying Wikisaurus:die Wikisaurus:death List of death deities == References... ==

user315433

This list is a mess

Sonic Wizard

9:12 PM

@D.Hutchinson No, it would have explicitly told her that.

D.Hutchinson

@SonicWizard ah, I see :)

Sonic Wizard

@Shadow reopen-pls target has been deleted for several years: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/57255/…

Someone please remind Peter Mortensen again about editing posts closed within five days (those edits push posts into reopen queue)

cv-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309164/…

user315433

> Driver weight will now be considered separately to the car, meaning heavier drivers will no longer be disadvantaged. (new Formula 1 rules)

user315433

An interesting move. Imagining a sumo wrestler behind the wheel, hired to increase the downforce on the car, hence improve its cornering.

Sonic Wizard

delv-pls 20k+ meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309164/…

user315433

9:28 PM

Looks like hairboat is now handling @StackOverflow twitter account, based on deletions here after the thread was brought up on Twitter.

user315433

IMO the delete button should have been used higher in the stack, "viewed 1,491,835 times" nonwithstanding.

Sonic Wizard

cv-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309165/…

πάντα ῥεῖ

@SonicWizard No "correct site" to ask that question IMO.

Sonic Wizard

@πάνταῥεῖ Comment edited.

SmokeDetector

9:55 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Shortened URL in answer: Is it possible to add a checkbox/button equivalent? by user128272 on webapps.SE

user315433

11:15 PM

Sorting through Portland photographs, was a bit puzzled by this one

user315433

Joe Simon? This Joe Simon?

user315433

I didn't know he had anything to release or promote...

user315433

Joe Simon - THE CHOKIN' KIND

►

Jon Ericson

@bro imdb.com/title/tt5164432

PG-13 and part of the release date are visible in the bottom left of the billboard.

user315433

11:19 PM

Thanks, never heard of that one (not following new movie releases much)

bjb568

:o

I just had an interview.

But it was a phone interview and the call interrupted my cat nap.

They asked me some technical questions and I'm a bit rusty, but I think I did alright.

Catija

So... naps > work?

bjb568

I really probably should have woken up before the interview.

Catija

Good luck! Hopefully you'll get a call back for an in-person interview? Or are they hiring for remote?

bjb568

They're hiring for a non-remote position during the summer, but it's like 4000km away, so there's probably not going to be an in-person interview.

Catija

11:29 PM

So you'd move over the summer?

bjb568

Yup.

Catija

That could be interesting, though... depending on where it is. :)

bjb568

It's near one of the places where I could go to college.

It's in silicon valley.

Catija

Ooooh, expensive.

user315433

I was drawing a circle of radius 4000km centered at Cincinnati.... and then you spoiled it.

Catija

11:31 PM

Do they provide housing? Because that could really eat up your pay.

I don't even know what 4K km is, so :P

user315433

@bjb568 Should be 4 megameters, right?

bjb568

4Mm… pie.

or like pi+0.85.

user315433

@Catija A convenient(?) reference: 10000 km is the distance from a Pole to Equator along the surface (it was originally defined like that)

user315433

Wolfram Alpha says it's more like 3200 km, which takes 15ms for light to travel in a fibre cable.

user315433

Also gives a number for light in vacuum, but how would that travel along a great-circle path?

Sonic Wizard

11:38 PM

4,000 km is the distance from New York to Los Angeles

2 days ago, by HTTPS

The Charcoal project wants feedback about SmokeDetector's behavior in the Tavern on self-deletion after FP feedback

^^Still need more responses

user315433

Another one from Portland, a new trend in self-segregation?

bjb568

4Mm is the driving distance.

@SonicWizard Couldn't there also be a new command for correcting errors that would print information that would currently have been deleted?

Sonic Wizard

11:55 PM

Which one's not the mine?

user315433

Are you feeling lucky?

Sonic Wizard

@bro What?

@bjb568 You could leave a comment on the GitHub issue, too?

bjb568

@SonicWizard done.

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