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9:02 PM
Ah, after some Googling I see that the preprint(?) of the Mentorship paper has finally been posted!
Oooh, fun :D
now I get to create a Google Scholar profile! for my single paper to sit alone forever.
Well, now you'll have to find a way to get an IMDb credit so that you can tick that off your check list.
There are already sports stars and actors with my name, but there are no acad... oh someone named Jeremy Banks filed a patent for a car vision system. Boo.
9:07 PM
There's even already a murderer with my name, so I couldn't even be the first at that.
I think the only one I've got is some sort of marathon runner.
@SonicWizard Post 1: Already recently reported [ MS ]
Would be nice to filter the close queue by post date. I'm not really interesting in someone's close campaign in the [api] tag.
9:27 PM
@SFTP It also feels odd to close old and already answered questions.
@Yvette Is there a possibility to ask the mods to lift a suspension earlier, if your stats show a contiguously well achieved score of your contributions to a site?
Where is the post where someone took some users new to SE and asked them to find the best site to post certain types of questions, and many users chose the wrong sites?
@SonicWizard Instead of recommending Quora or Reddit?
@πάνταῥεῖ I...think that may be why you're suspended...
@SonicWizard I rarely really recommended users to take that path. Don't make silly assumptions please!
9:31 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ No, I was referring to the rather...flippant nature of your message.
@SonicWizard which one in particular?
3 mins ago, by πάντα ῥεῖ
@SonicWizard Instead of recommending Quora or Reddit?
@Sonic Recommending other sites wrongly is an ubiquitous phenomenon at SE sites. Some of the worst examples are recommendations coming from SO to SE Code Review and SE Software Engineering. I see those misconceptions initiated from SO day by day.
You probably need to get suspended, and try to contribute SE in other ways left for moderation to grasp the point of it. :-P
9:55 PM
> I just want to fucking sob. I want to hold my head in my hands, and just fucking sob. Do not listen to one goddamn thing Atwood has to say on the topics of diversity and equal treatment on Stack Overflow because he's completely fucking clueless. -- Tim Post at 2:44 PM - 12 Apr 2018
Confidence level in the sanity of SO leadership: low.
You don't have to be crazy to work here, but it helps.
Hmm, I might qualify then ...
... Wait... I'm confused. Being upset by something Atwood says makes you not sane?
@Catija Like your new avatar, but now Bennett looks like he's...up to something. I have an idea: why not use the airport photo, but with just you and Bennett in the frame?
9:59 PM
@SonicWizard Because I don't use photos of myself, it doesn't have Hippo in it... and it's on your phone, not mine.
@Catija Or just Bennett? (I'm gonna post that photo very soon, still deciding on whether or not to make a certain type of edit to it.)
In the meantime, here's a reasonable attempt to just crop Bennett in it
10:15 PM
In the comment here it is argued the OP self-answered to prevent the bounty being given to the other answer. Is that reasoning valid?
Another chance to oppress a person of color...
@rene That's no longer possible.
OK, I thought so. Thanks
IIRC it used to be a long time ago, but these days, we have this:
if (hasAnswer && !voter.IsCommunityUser && voter.Id == bountyStarter && voter.Id == a.OwnerUserId)
    return new VoteResult { Success = false, Message = Localize._s("You cannot award your own bounty to your own answer") };
10:24 PM
I'm double-checking how auto-awards work, though I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be affected either
@AdamLear Self-answers are exempt
yeah, that's what I thought
OK, I left a comment
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected, toxic answer detected: How long does Safenet track IPs for? by Christine Deepa on gaming.SE
@SonicWizard yeah, confirmed.
10:30 PM
Bah, there looks to be a serial voting incident involved as well ....
Kids these days ... go play football ... build a tree house ...
10:54 PM
@spolsky @codinghorror @StackOverflow Nice self-congratulatory post. Where’s the one where you apologize for creating a toxic, inhumane wasteland that rewards arrogance and shaming while excluding women and people of color? Is that one next?
Is this where the drama started?
If I dial the skepticism up to 100%
it is in Stack Exchange Inc's best interest to engage the most users to drive up good numbers for the investors.
The business is at odds the mission.
10:56 PM
I am going to abort
because this chat is even more archived than Twitter.
I think so.
I remain concerned where this line of thinking will go, and have yet to see anything from Jeff which warrants anywhere near the response I'm seeing.
But this is not a good place to continue that thread.
10:57 PM
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe see I knew I could get answers here, didn't even need to ask :D
same lol
I encourage anybody who is sympathetic with Jeff to send private messages of support, because we should all be able to see that engaging on Twitter is a dangerous and probably unproductive move.
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe Looong story :-P ...
I will keep digging for a fuller picture, but everything I'm seeing seems to fit a 10-year-old pattern.
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe No, the pattern is still actual. The business concerns changed IMO.
11:02 PM
We can and should have a debate about how to fix it. We should study who it affects and why. But we are past the point of debating whether or not there is a problem. We know there is a problem because people tell us that is their experience. The experience is the problem. 5/5
> We know there is a problem because people tell us that is their experience.
People tell us a lot of things.
People tell us we're Nazis.
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe Such is flagworthy!
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe I'm sympathetic to a degree. It's as if someone came up to a parent and said, "your baby is ugly and smells bad". But I'm unsympathetic in that he's bothering to engage.
11:04 PM
It's hard to have an opinion when the full story is so scattered and hard to piece together
I have a feeling there's a lot of "out of context" emotional responses to whatever this is
The story is the same shit it always is
The community is full of jerks
People interpret that as systemic oppression, whether against new users, or races, or sexes.
And it's true that not-inherently-biased systems can produced biases results because of external systemic factors
but we're accused of rather worse than that.
11:07 PM
I've used female names on new accounts. I haven't observed any different treatment.
So I reject the claim that the problem must exist because subjects claim it exists.the
There is evidence to the contrary.
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe she was doing it earlier too
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe it's kinda that hard problem.
You shouldn't let this work you up so much
that is good advice
11:09 PM
It's not about sexism on it's own. It is a little but.... It starts there and it's a lot also about what SO should be.
Listen to some thrash metal, you'll feel better and that will let you focus on more personally important topics ^^
Happier topics, like how it's so nice outside I'm gonna go take a ride on the ol' motorcycle
!!afk be happy to each other
I just had a crazy person on the street, with a knife, following me around yelling "white guy" and accusing me of abusing white privilidge
11:10 PM
One if the underlying threads we keep seeing is 'how do we keep SO newbie friendly' and at scale, size it's hard.
I am a little primed to emotional sensitivity on racial topics myself
having just been threatened.
:6856177 That kinda speech won't work out well. Just my 2¢
Good weather bringing out the crazies.
Hah. Minority person. Thinks term POC is offensive :p
11:11 PM
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe the best counter to that is to just smile, call 911, and keep on trucking
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe Anyone who has been active here for any of the past 9 years knows that the problem exists, because we've literally been discussing it non-stop since day one of the public beta. But...
The moment you engage, you're trapped. Threats and harassment do not convey the opposition.
...that does not explain anything we're seeing on Twitter. For that, read the comments on this deleted meta thread.
@SterlingArcher Indeed. I had seen police earlier, walked back to them, and then he accused the cops of being racist, and I walked on and he got himself into trouble. Phew.
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe Same. But I do think the same comments can appear more hostile to people who have other reasons to feel unwelcome.
11:12 PM
@Shog9 Twitter is the worst place to deal with it IMO
pardon I'm told I shouldn't use the word "crazy"
Speaking of twitter I might make one just to follow @Shog9. I'm very interested in how much vinegar goes into your sink.
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe racial topics Huh?? All those "abisheks" ??
I had a clearly unwell person*
@JourneymanGeek Well, a congressional hearing would be a bit worse.
11:13 PM
On the other hand it seems many of these folks are afraid of meta or don't want to step into the spaces they want to see changed.
Meta is awful to anybody who doesn't 100% conform, so I can understand that.
Meta is not a good forum to affect this kind of change.
Writing an article is more constructive, even if more provocative.
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe it would be but it's harder to get an audience
@SterlingArcher trivia: my Twitter account is an April Fool's day joke that I'm temporarily highjacking because someone told me I needed to be on Twitter to be a CM.
11:15 PM
@SterlingArcher Yes, I made the mistake of stopping and making momentary eye contact when he started vandalizing a car.
@Shog9 how temporarily?
@Shog9 This "Someone" always has to put their oar in.
@Catija man. This thread would be a trieme then
Who gets to bang the drum?
11:17 PM
And any serious conversations seem hijacked by folks who got qbanned or just seem so angry.
I'm sure, hearing what the cms say here and on TA - they'd be delighted if someone reached out with specific issues with culture.
"delighted" makes us sound sadistic
I thought that was a prereq...
We try to provide guidance and a sympathetic ear. Which is normally helpful. But ATM... Best is a little bit of listening and no talking.
@Shog9 or mascochitic however it's spelled.
@Shog9 quite
Sympathy is hard.
11:22 PM
@Shog9 more that it allows for engagement over 127 character yells.
I thought they doubled the tweet length.
I agree that if we can make users less assholish that would be great, and setting clearer expectations for new users will be great, and there's definitely room for improvement on both. I was irritated by the framing, but these are truths.
'i am irritated by the framing' yup!
That's a big issue i have there.
If we start approaching this as a racism issue, we'll probably miss all of the actual root causes of the problems they're complaining about.
Well sexism issue. And maybe one of tone and tone-deafness.
11:33 PM
I think thinking there is only one "issue" is a mistake. Several fairly complex dynamics are at play.
@READ "and setting clearer expectations for new users will be great" I don't know what's actually missing besides new users don't care to read, but just want to get their urgent personal problemz solved asap.
I don't know if this is helpful or valid or... what... but there's something that I learned on IPS that I don't think you see outside of trolls most other places (not that I've spent much time on other sites... but the general reaction I hear from people about IPS is surprise...) While SE is really strict about what we allow people to talk about because it has to stick to the subject... it's really difficult to use SE as a platform.
@πάνταῥεῖ well question is how do we help people help themselves without being asshats?
While we try not to let people use IPS that way... it invariably at least attracts people making the attempt.
11:35 PM
There are many potential UX improvements to the Ask Question flow that could improve new users impressions/understanding. I expect we'll see them eventually.
@Catija that topic focus really is the thing
There are a lot of people with not very nice thoughts on this network, just like others... but our format makes it difficult to realize that's the case.
"Users don't read!" is one thing Facebook has recently said to Congress regarding their terms of service and nobody found that compelling.
@JourneymanGeek There's tons of friendly material at the help centers.
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe There's some work happening on that front now (Jon Chan's working on a prototype for better dupe finding, for example), and there will be more once Teams launches and many of us can go back to other areas.
11:36 PM
Heh. One of the complaints I saw is we are toxic cause we delete thank you.
@AdamLear Sweet. :)
@πάνταῥεῖ true but most people won't read it.
@JourneymanGeek Wasn't that what I said?
Who's fault is it then?
I vote y'all make a game that teaches people how to ask good questions on SO... and it's required to ask a question the first time. If you fail the game, you don't get to ask a question :P
(and I personally think the old single page faq was friendlier)
11:37 PM
If we expect the users to go read the help center, then it's our damn fault, obviously.
Because that is not a reasonable expectation and a bad design choice.
@Catija heh I suggested that.
Saying what users "should" do is meaningless. We don't deal with ideal users in a vacuum.
And the QA format as SE does it is uncommon
I think that a lot of people are rushing when they ask questions - particularly on SO. "I need this NOW"... but SO isn't an on demand service.
11:39 PM
@Catija that's a broader cultural issue.
@JourneymanGeek It could be boiled down to something smaller probably. Something people use to give with their stock comments about DV/CV's maybe.
Or get mad they get no answers
Right, but when people are in a rush they write low-quality questions, they don't read the instructions and they get frustrated easily by people refusing to help them because their question is low quality or insufficiently detailed.
They want an answer, not a lecture... and definitely not snark.
@Catija Why should we care about these people anyways?
@πάνταῥεῖ There's a vast separation between "caring" about them and treating them civilly.
11:41 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ because we can show them job ads </cynic>
How do they positively contribute for Stack Exchange?
@READandSee-It'sNotaDupe Lick Spolsky's boots, yeah!
@Catija DV, CV is what I've been learning, no comments (or at least well established stock stuff only)
@πάνταῥεῖ If your only goal is to scare them away and make them never come back... they never will. If you take the time and help them ask their question, they may eventually come back and ask more good questions that show users what to strive for... and as they learn and develop, they'll start answering questions.
The current userbase can't be static. You have to make room for new top users. Jon Skeet won't be in the game forever.
Comments are more helpful than any of that IF you can actually offer to help them improve. If you respond to them with snark or sass or anything less than an honest interest in assisting them... just close vote and down vote and move on... leave it to someone else.
@Catija Sure Jon Skeet is a mortal, as we all are :-P
That's what I tell people
Regardless of how helpful (or not) anyone is, when has being rude to anyone actually properly solved any problem?
11:48 PM
Part of why SO is so successful is the wide number of users who actively ask, answer and moderate the site. If the current users don't help new users, you'll end up with a dead zone of new good userbase and the site's value will start to drop. A community must be self-sustaining or it risks failure.
You can also actually tell a new user where they are wrong nicely. Well I used to before :p
@JourneymanGeek nicely can be an even sharper sword than just being straight (and even achieved rude). You let someone left with insight they've asked something really dumb with a friendly clap at their shoulder. I really can't decide what's better, and being better in being achieved regarding honesty.
@πάνταῥεῖ Because in person you can smile and be visibly friendly... In text, it just comes off as being a dick.
@Catija Or even vice versa as soon the victim realizes.
11:55 PM
Even the fact that you're calling them "the victim" troubles me.
I prefer being straight, even if some mimosas consider that rude
The tree or the breakfast beverage?
@Catija The mimosa tree
As far as my experience goes, when people say "I prefer being straight" they mean "I don't want to bother considering that you're a person with feelings that I might want to care about".
They make them victims themselves, thus I don't care.
11:58 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ I one can be honest, direct and polite
I think of them as users and constituents.
Looks like I was right.
@JourneymanGeek I can be polite of course, that's not the point.
That's totally the point.
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