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8:00 AM
@Magisch some of their complaints might be valid
but you're not going to win anyone over being antagonistic
sure, but you can bypass these issues by taking a little time to grok the culture on SO
well, Jon had issues
@Magisch oh... I was referring more to MSE, SO is even harder.
I joined sometime in late september of 2015 but didn't post until almost a month later
and had been reading it for a month or so before then
8:02 AM
@Magisch and I consider this an essential first step to getting used to any community
(also... probably how we got our dog. ;p)
I don't have enough social intuition to just ... start in a complex social community and do well right away
No one really does
SE is better with this because there are clear guidelines, but other communities often don't have them written out
8:04 AM
Do we?
Cause I often find myself hunting for roles across metas.
there's the help center, and the how to ask/answer
and we have no obvious 'culture' until you wander into chat
Then again, I've read so much meta that the vortex of SE policy blurs together a lot by now
Not that easy to recall the early steps then
and that's hard for a new person
tbh I can't really seperate chat from main anymore in my head
I've spent so much time in both that they've both become essential items in my day
8:07 AM
@Shog9 hey, this bug look pretty critical, tag popups are important. Can you please nudge some dev to take a look? Thanks! :) /cc @Adam
Tavern is the only essential chat room for me.
@HTTPS 18+
@Magisch eh, chat's social
21+ in some places..
and since I mod chat, the techniques I use are very different.
8:08 AM
Maybe @Smokey can check the user's age, then decide whether to give them beer or not. :D
Anime.SE's chat room is... an imageboard.
@JourneymanGeek Also a low pressure environment to get a grok on things before you step out into the cold hard world of meta and main
more fun when you're blue but not wanting to throw your blueness around.
@JourneymanGeek And also the vector to fight spam
@JourneymanGeek cover your blue parts.
8:09 AM
Android.SE's chat room is... so-so.
@Magisch on the other hand, people are going to be teed off if you use chat for questions
@Magisch heh, I'd argue that the use of chat is incidental.
SO's chat room... ugh, where do I start...
It just happens to be there
@JourneymanGeek You don't though. You use chat to gain a meta-understanding before asking
Like subtle tips on how to compose
@HTTPS there's supposed to be a magic number of people for chat...
@Magisch I didn't start off on chat
and I personally think reading existing questions is 'the thing'
8:10 AM
> Nonetheless, browsers didn't disable WebRTC, and the feature is still enabled by default in all major browsers —except the Tor Browser, Edge, and Internet Explorer.
(referring to the WebRTC bug)
(So I guess that's why when I did the leak test with my VPN enabled, it tested negative for leaks, even though my VPN was listed as one of those that tested positive)
@JourneymanGeek probably helped that I started in socvr
which is also an anomaly compared to normal chat
@Magisch heh, SU main, SU chat, meta in that order
@JourneymanGeek perhaps it's because I'm not really a fast reader... so I enjoy more slower pace but still active like Tavern. I got lost when there's Town Hall Meeting...
and a lot of my early interaction was people saying my answers were good but my spelling sucks...
Well "started" on the main site. I just joined chat shortly after reaching 3k
8:13 AM
Rethinking about it I didn't join chat much at all until I had 3k
@SonicWizard So there is one single bug/security leak that does not affect Edge and affect other browsers... it does not compensate for the hundreds of other bug/leaks that other browsers fixed long ago and Microsoft never bothered. This is probably just pure chance, not something Microsoft did on purpose.
The setting "Hide my local IP address over WebRTC communications" is checked by default.
@ShadowWizard The cause is different in Edge and IE. Edge hides the local IP by default, while IE doesn't support WebRTC.
So they did on purpose... still.... doesn't compensate for the other bugs/leaks they don't bother to fix.
IE11 added WebGL and SPDY, but for some reason those were only enabled on Windows 8.1, not Windows 7
8:17 AM
@TelKitty your Big GIF room is going to freeze soon...
seems migrated to the Chicken Coop
@JourneymanGeek Reading that there's a point to it
Never questioned it until now, but answering is always at least a little uncomfortable
fear of missing something, being wrong, wasting people's time, all of that
In a way it's putting your best shot forward for all the world to judge and criticise. You know they will
Sites like SO are really a high pressure environment
8:29 AM
Well balancing quality and newbie friendliness is hard.
Especially with high volimes of newbies
I guess personality also plays a role... like a certain mod (not in Tavern) using emoticon to soften the critic and suggestion...
and it worked.
@HTTPS Grace? (Note)
8:47 AM
@ShadowWizard no, a German mod...
I have to go afk, I'll leave this here with the message that it might get resposted on MSO. Maybe some of you can handle it when/if it arrives there. (I wanted to add this as well: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/148167)
9:08 AM
@ShadowWizard last time it stayed inactive but not frozen for 13 days
but thanks for notifying me ~_~
@HTTPS Bart?
@TelKitty my pleasure!
@ShadowWizard I... never see Bart using emoticon when criticizing on main (I assumed, SO) site... I dunno >_<
@HTTPS that's pretty essential for mods
@JourneymanGeek yeah, and that's why I won't be a good mod ;p
9:18 AM
@HTTPS well, I feel there's many entirely contradictory methods of being a good effective mod
@HTTPS that is because @Bart has the power of Hidden Emoticons!
You sometimes need nice folks, sometimes you need to politely crack heads.
9:33 AM
oh, nice, more meta reports of offensive users profile pages that will get ignored.
and the whole "we like people to be creative, profile pages aren't very visible" thing.
Its alex tho
Mr upsidedownunicornhat?
But eh, he should flag the user and it would get handled. No need for a meta post.
@JourneymanGeek To my personal experience if the picture is on the profile page the first rule of moderation inertia will make it so most of the times your flag will actually be declined.
@Derpy eh, depends on the site?
Maybe my site is quieter but I'm sure it would either be a quick reset and mod message or mods discussing it on SU
9:44 AM
maybe... yet, I somehow still think that I don't need this (open at your risk, depending on your tolerance level may be nsfw, somehow chauvinist or just plain bad joke) in a profile page, yet it was keept. That's why I no longer flag profiles and / or offensive avatars - we must have very different metrics on what is acceptable on a professional site.
Yeah, we have this user on MSE...
@HTTPS the subtle line between "We are grown-up users, we have the right to expect that people do not post offensive content" and "We are grown-up users, we have the right to expect that the other users don't run crying to the teacher when we post offensive content"
10:01 AM
@HTTPS btw, out of curiosity. I assume flags about that were already raised and declined? Or you just never tried in the first place?
@Derpy been there, didn't try...
? "Been there" -> you already had the same experience of declined flags before?
Why is this review item no longer reviewable?
10:20 AM
@Derpy there's nothing to flag tho
@JourneymanGeek ?? Sorry, either you all are playing "confuse the pony" or I am more sleepy than usual today, but I don't get you. What should have been flagged in the first place? Are you referring to the picture I posted? Or the user HTTPS linked?
@Derpy the user. they don't have anything to be flagged
again, this brings us back to the "we have different metrics so I will no longer raise flags that you will dismiss" conclusion from before. To me, using an offensive message as your user name is not acceptable - if the community is happy with that... not my windmill. Not anymore.
10:38 AM
@SmokeDetector flag ahoy...
I am paying for a service to violating the internet :x
maybe I will get penalized ... but I like to live dangerously
nobody gets hurt ... it's only the internet
@TelKitty how many followers did you buy? ;p
not followers, I don't really use social media
10:42 AM
I can't tell you what, but last time I saw some really amazing results ... before penalized
@Derpy lets say mr rude username was in SU...
and you linked his profile on chat
I'd do something about it
Likewise if someone had a NSFW user image, it would probably be handled
I think I did it to someone with a pair of bare boobs as his ava
they're not meat buns?
Wait a second - "they don't have anything to be flagged" means that you don't have a way to flag the user? Again, sorry. I assumed you meant "that user is fine, there is no need to flag".
@Derpy exactly!
If someone brought it up on SU chat I'd go "wait you should flag... oh, nothing to flag, lemme take care of it"
But please, understand me. Never I would expect that one would dismiss flagging an offensive user profile because there is nothing yet to flag.
since... you know... you could just flag one of your own post with a custom moderator flag and explain that they probably should remove that user in the flag custom text?
10:49 AM
@Derpy I suppose
but but...
SU's relatively quiet
while the flag will work, the slightly more direct approach also makes sense.
That is something I'd take a look at, and very likely act on, as a moderator on SU
the user HTTPS linked is on MSE, not SU :P If one really wanted to, there are plenty of methods to report him - that's why I miss-interpreted your and his messages.
I can't do anything on MSE ;p
Well, post related sure
but not full scale great maul of modhammering.
@JourneymanGeek I somehow remember a reply along the lines of "don't mass flag offensive / spam users profiles because the have low visibility and thus not worth the work"...
@Derpy oh, mass flag
Wasn't that Robert about the...
Several thousand spammers?
We don't have a lot of methods to deal with profile spamming
10:59 AM
then I do remember something about a dog ranting about a flood of spam user profiles on a site he moderates.
^ do you happen to know him by any change, @JourneymanGeek? :P
Different situation tho
at least those aren't offensive.
"at least not every single one of those is offensive"
some are "just" fake help desk services
More that there's no way to nuke em all manually
at this point, the "need to be deleted" backlog is so big that even if you had better tools....
so we opted for inertia and we don't remove the new mad ones either.
(which is at least fair to all those poor spammers - why the old ones should get to stay while the new ones get deleted...)
@JourneymanGeek is it easier to merge or delete user?
11:09 AM
We can't merge
We delete what we come across
troll in CHQ hijacked account.. do we need to alert CMs?
I would guess it's being discussed in TL atm
2 hours later…
1:11 PM
@JourneymanGeek I assume the relevant authorities have been informed already, but if they havent, feel free
1:28 PM
@Magisch not on my site. Only so much I can do.
On my site but I mostly delete them when bored. I think shog whacked a few
@JourneymanGeek So the CMs know
But ya. The needful are in the loop
@Magisch and a meta question
1:58 PM
(pardon the interruption; @Abcd <-- ping, listen to the sound. kthanxbye)
Hi @GaurangTandon
@GaurangTandon once more
@Abcd (last time)
@GaurangTandon no real interruption
@JourneymanGeek because chat is asynchronous?
11 messages moved to Chimney
@GaurangTandon cause we were wrapping up the topic :)
2:11 PM
@JourneymanGeek oh alright :)
2:30 PM
Good morning
Good evening :)
3:17 PM
Just a test room

 Charcoal Test

Test results from various unofficial Charcoal clients. If you ...
@SterlingArcher Might have to do with the earlier appearance of hijacked account in the chatroom.
IMO hijacked accounts should be treated like any other: nuke the posts with red flags. Their access should be blocked. If the real owner of the account still wants to use it (unlikely; it's probably abandoned) they can appeal to mods/CMs.
Nothing we can do with flags is irreversible.
5:21 PM
@SFTP Remember that mod chart for SO? Can you please make one for SU?
Um.... would it be an interesting chart? They only had 4 elections.
@SFTP Plus beta
Yeah, I get it, seeing as none of them became employees
If someone collects the data: start/end months of SU moderators, I'll make the chart.
5:50 PM
I have to ration close votes, SO is really annoying when I don't have any. Hm, do we have a way to see how many close votes are left today? Only when flagging, I guess.
I ran out of close votes the other day and it was.. I felt so... i was powerless.
Yet another example where someone on staff should have something setting their account apart, even if it's not a diamond. :(
There should be a badge for using all your close votes X days in a row
@SterlingArcher [() SOCVR core member] :P
5:57 PM
I had a bookmarklet for getting vote counts from profile /votes but of course it's broken now after redesigns.
Does the API return remaining close votes?
Can't say I've ever actually used the API
I don't see it in question-close-options
The site must be using something else to display the count of remaining votes in the close dialog.
@Catija What was the example?
6:01 PM
Employees usually have something in the profile about their role.
A: How long will Strangeworks sponsor quantumcomputing?

Joseph LippensCurrently, StackExchange sponsorships have a 12-month commitment. Specific agreements could be different, but that is how they are generally structured at this time.

Usually, not always. I had to look at his (linked) linkedin account to see it.
Ah, sales people usually don't bother, I guess. It's rare for them to post on Meta, on the other hand.
Even if it's just on metas (including MSE).
This is a case when a signature might be okay in a post.
Sure. But if they're going to start getting more questions about things like sponsorships and site-specific ad sales, it might be useful.
6:08 PM
@Catija does it mean... the site is ensured to exist at least 12 months..?
well, maybe.
We'll find out how it goes in practice.
Do they still have to pay if you shut down the site?
How come Stack doesn't advertise the use of chats more?
@JohnDvorak I'm not up on the specifics of the deal. But what I'm getting at is that this is the first time we've done something like this, so if it goes well... great. If it doesn't, we're gonna be figuring out what the best move is as we go along.
Is it just a feature that was never intended to grow?
6:11 PM
Also, do they have to sponsor it forever (well, as long as the site exist)? If they stop sponsoring it, will the site... die?
(I guess I'll get the same reply as John's)
Well I just wonder if increasing the visibility/awareness of the rooms would drive the crap off Main?
@HTTPS Pretty much :) Sponsorship isn't required for the site to exist, assuming it does well otherwise.
There's also a possibility that someone would sponsor an already existing site. It doesn't have to be a new launch.
The most important thing: will the site design be taken down if they stop sponsoring? :)
@HTTPS with our normal turnaround time on design changes? ;)
but seriously, probably not. we'd turn off the little "sponsored by" thingy in the header and that'd likely be it
6:57 PM
@SterlingArcher did you participate in the mentoring experiment?
Was that the mentoring experiment that costed money and was for women only?
@SterlingArcher Hmm, maybe that was its hidden goal, but no.
Not sure I'd be a good mentor :P
It attempted to drive crap off main
Hmm, not heavy on statistics
Wonder what the effort to effect ratio was
7:02 PM
well, I only lurked and there were a few that went well but took serious time
but some I had to edit once posted for real because the mentor gave the wrong advice
It has a scaling problem ...
There should be a mandatory "stop answering questions that should be closed" mentorship for several high rep peoples :P
@rene yeah, mentoring kind of harnesses a 1:1 scale
@SterlingArcher That could certainly help :D
Can we forcibly sign people up for that? I have a list of names <.<
I think we all have such list. You can always open an MSO post to gather support for such good ideas ...
To call them out directly? lol
7:17 PM
just to discuss the problem with some live examples
@SFTP Are you allowed to use a second account to cast recommend closure flags once you run out of votes? (Provided you don't use your own votes to mark those flags as helpful)
That sounds very fishy, so no, that should not be allowed
Great now I need to look up the origin of "very fishy"
> The term ''fishy'' is thought to have arisen from the notion "as slippery as a fish" or as an allusion to meat with a "fishy" taste, an indication that the meat is bad. A simpler explanation is that old fish (not good to eat) smells fishy with bad odour caused by a chemical named trimethylamine which is released when fish begins to break down.
Well I'll be damned it actually makes sense
17 messages moved to Chimney
7:34 PM
I just watched a question get absolutely destroyed. Worse than I have ever seen. I tried to type a custom close reason, in 20 seconds, but it got closed before I finished typing. I tried typing a comment explaining that the user should avoid these questions because they might get q banned, but their user account was nuked before I could finish my comment, summarily deleting the question. Uhm, what?
@SonicWizard It's not allowed to do anything with a second account that circumvents a limitation of one account.
Question is here: stackoverflow.com/q/49563689/1026459 Can I get an explanation?
Flagging if you run out of flags falls under that.
Did someone break the formatting sandbox? Trying to open it owns my computer.
@TravisJ Of closure or deletion?
7:35 PM
@SFTP I am curious who nuked the user account.
Self-deleted, I assume. Has only one post -> can instantly self delete account.
No, you don't get it, their entire account was deleted.
Which also results in community deleting that post if it has negative score.
Oh, they self deleted their account?
Wow, okay, I guess that is one path.
Considering the comments they got, I'm not surprised.
7:36 PM
> Stackoverflow != Google
Rather "StackOverflow != free homework service"
To answer the question, you type the code in using a keyboard, one character at a time.
@Dukeling waiting for uhoh.s3.amazonaws.com/lol.svg...
Brutal, I guess it is plausible.
@SFTP I see some people who need a talking to.
That was the absolute worst reception I have ever seen to a question.
...I have seen a lot of questions
@TravisJ Really? I see that semi-regularly.
7:39 PM
that ^
@Dukeling Really? All in 90 seconds?
I see it commonly over like 10-15 minutes
But not in 90 seconds.
yeah, it is not that uncommon
C++ tag beats C# in that category, I think.
The C++ people are... aggressive.
With their upvotes too though, so at least it balances out.
7:41 PM
I heard their chat room was almost closed at one point
someone screw up a pointer?
Heh, don't open that can of worms unless you want to spend a good 8 hours reading backstory.
Ok, now I can't even close the formatting sandbox tab. So much for trying to use the dev tools to get around the problem.
@Dukeling When you get infinite loop behavior in chrome (if you aren't using chrome, then stop reading), you can click the X for stop, then click the home button, then click the x and it generally recovers.
(The second x being the tab close)
I just killed it with chrome task manager.
7:45 PM
should be fine now
Yeah, shift esc is good too
Don't blame me I voted for Travis
I couldn't close it at all.
@SterlingArcher \o/
I guess I will get to 40/40 before running again though.
Ew is it too late to retract my vote for Travis?
7:47 PM
I see how it is
@SmokeDetector fp-
@AdamMaras @GABeech @GBrayUT @yesthattom Hey everyone. This was good advice. I have grown over the past few years and next week I start on the SRE team at @StackOverflow. #ContinuousImprovement
Thread has some interesting history
@Shog9 What happened here? It freezes my tab when I try to load it. (link)
@Mysticial there's one of those dumb SVGs
See above a page or so
Q: SVG files and billion laughs attack

TechtwaddleSVG files are susceptible to billion laughs attack. Our website allows users to upload/submit markdown files and we run the .md file through marked.js before rendering it. Now images in the markdown get rendered as, <img src="https://evilsite.com/badsvg.svg"/> in the webpage. Browsers will pre...

7:52 PM
I saw your "jackass" edit followed by the deletion. Which of course made me curious...
yeah, if there's one thing you want to click, it's a post that's edited and then deleted as abusive... ;-)
@AdamLear That's sort of why I guessed six months in my comment... I figured for a beta site with unknown interest/capacity, it'd be difficult to lock someone into a long contract.
8:08 PM
@Shog9 is there any penalty for breaking the sandbox?
Surely that'd deserve a prize, not a penalty?
@canon you have to fix it by going through Comcast Customer Service
aka the 5th layer of hell
@canon One less nice thing in the world. :-(
@JonEricson might be the incentive to move chats to Slack ;D
what does the sandbox have to do with chat?
8:13 PM
Are you not talking about the sandbox chat for testing bots and stuff?
39 mins ago, by Dukeling
Did someone break the formatting sandbox? Trying to open it owns my computer.
That's 38 more minutes of context effort than I'm willing to put in
To summarize:
1. Some jackass posted some dumb SVG exploit in the sandbox.
2. Everyone going to the sandbox gets pwned.
3. Shog edits the post, calls the guy a jackass, and spam deletes it.
4. We all laugh at it.
Ah. Hence the reference to Slack. :-P
8:19 PM
@Mysticial and another reason why we can't have nice things
Oh, it was Nicael... no prizes for them.
What's a nice way to tell 133k user "would it kill you to search for a duplicate first?"
sounds nice enough to me ...
Just vote to close as a dupe. Search is... not great. :)
@SterlingArcher Call him/her a "jackass"? :D
8:22 PM
Interpersonal Skills question?
I'm not Shoggy enough to do that :P
Don't get me wrong, I'd do it, it just wouldn't stick as well.
@SFTP You know IPS generally doesn't handle SE-related questions, right? This is the edict of Robert. :)
"edict" is a bit strong... but those sorts of questions are more appropriate for meta, particularly if some element of site policy comes into the equation.
@SterlingArcher it might not kill him but I expect it would be painful. Locating a dupe-target is notoriously difficult.
@canon some are very easy though. The main point I want to say is "stop answering questions that should be closed"
But I don't wanna sound like the rep farm police and start a fight... but it's just not helping.
There's a good chance of there being another Mithrandir mod, on QC.. quantumcomputing.meta.stackexchange.com/a/118
8:26 PM
For every dedicated "closer" there's a dedicated "repper" x 10
I will require one of them to change... we already have like four robs and three johns...
Well we already have two Darth Vaders with diamonds.
We need a diamond Krieger
Q: Should we set restrictions on what answers can be posted to the Formatting Sandbox?

Sonic Wizard(I'm neutral on this issue; I just want to open it for discussion.) The original intent of the Formatting Sandbox was to provide a place for users to test out the formatting features of the Stack Exchange Markdown. However, recently, some users have been using it to test out bugs that break the ...

8:27 PM
Because he has vampire clones. Yup yup yup.
@SonicWizard What would they do? They (presumably) wouldn't be technically enforceable, and it looks like this got handled... so it seems like they're already not "allowed".
@Catija Yeah...Shog sent the answers to the Sandbox archive, but I think some of those answers were archived as-is. It could set a precedent.
@Catija This was also not the only time such a thing has happened. At least a few other answers causing breakages have been posted.
And they've been removed... so it seems there's already rules. You can make all the rules you want but the people who are going to break the rules, don't care what they are.
They can be removed without having to special-case them.
A simple rule would be "if anyone complains that a certain answer is causing breakage in [browser X], the answer will be deleted"
What special casing? It breaks the site, it's abusive... seems like SOP.
8:37 PM
@Catija Sometimes these are harder to catch if the breakage only happens in certain browsers.
... Still not seeing the problem... An edit/comment/custom mod flag should be sufficient to get it attended to. Perhaps, instead of looking for "rules" what you're looking for is "how should users respond to posts that do X, Y, Z?"
But the thing is, if I flag an answer that causes breakage in Edge (but I don't know it), and the mod handling the flag is using, say, Chrome, which doesn't exhibit the issue, a flag saying "this answer causes breakage" may be declined.
Which is why the mod flag note specifically says "Be specific"... even if you don't know that it's browser specific - mention it.
> A problem not listed above that requires action by a moderator. Be specific and detailed!

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