Tavern on the Meta

Once you rep cap, no further rep is earned... if you later get downvotes or votes removed, they can only be replaced by earning additional upvotes... existing ones don't get counted in their stead.

E.P.

@Catija yeah, but then once you rep cap, then the rep-cap day should stay on the books no matter what

(modulo things that entail fraud, obviously)

i.e. specifically my legendary-badge progress tracker was at 67 the day before and had advanced to 68

Catija

7

A: Why is rep-cap count not increased even it seems I hit rep-cap?

From your activity profile: You earned 185. The criteria for Epic is "earn 200 daily reputation 50 times". 185 is not 200, and your Epic counter is not increased. The things that may be confusing are: The Epic criteria is not "hit the rep cap 50 times", it's "earn 200 daily points 50 times...

E.P.

12:37 AM

@Catija that is completely ridiculous

thanks for that link

Shog9

@E.P. which day?

E.P.

@Shog9 yesterday

2018-02-15

Shog9

looks like you hit the cap

E.P.

there's an unupvote+unaccept at 2018-02-15 23:59 followed by an upvote+accept at 2018-02-16 00:01 on the same thread, shortly after I suggested to OP that the answer they had posted might be inappropriate given that the author of the photograph was hanging out on a related thread

@Shog9 how so?

@Shog9 my Legendary badge tracker was at 68 during the evening

Catija

Interesting, the timeline doesn't show the original accept or the unaccept.

E.P.

12:50 AM

@Catija timelines are bad at shifting accepts (meta.stackexchange.com/questions/272892/…)

Catija

I'm pretty sure the mod timeline view has them both but I'm not certain. I was curious whether you'd rep capped the day you had it accepted originally.

E.P.

@Catija the question with the unaccept-accept pair is ages old

Catija

Yeah, I saw... from 2015

E.P.

2015

I almost certainly did not rep-cap that day

Catija

You didn't rep cap any time around then, though...

Shog9

12:53 AM

@E.P. you've got 3 upvotes that didn't give you any rep, and another few that gave you partial

E.P.

@Shog9 oh, I agree, I hit the rep-cap

Catija

Originally accepted on July 18 2015. physics.stackexchange.com/users/8563/… Only rep you got that day :D

Shog9

so you're just asking about your badge progress

E.P.

@Shog9 yes

Shog9

hmm... Lemme see which types that cares about

Catija

12:54 AM

@Shog9 So are you saying that Jason's answer is wrong?

E.P.

if it's all the same to SE, I'd quite like that uptick in the badge progress

it's my current long-term project as far as gamification of SE goes

Shog9

@Catija not sure, that's what I'm checking

I know that not ALL rep changes matter for the purpose of the badge

E.P.

(well, that, and trying to keep my total-rep-given-away-as-bounties on the first page of all-time rep)

Shog9

that's been true for many years

you can earn 200 from upvotes and spend 200 on downvotes and still be considered eligible for that day

not sure about the rest of it

Catija

I don't think the badge rules are the same as the rep cap rules.

Shog9

12:57 AM

they're not

E.P.

@Shog9 but trade ten of those downvotes for one unupvote on one of your posts right before midnight and the badge progress vanishes?

Shog9

maybe

trying to figure out where this lives

user202362

Mar 20 '16 at 4:13, by Telkitty

If shog is a small hog, is bjb a bobcat named jb?

Shog9

ok, full list of stuff that matters for the badges:

askerAccept, askerUnaccept, answerAccepted, answerUnaccepted, postUpvoted, postUnupvoted, suggestedEditApproved, BountyEarned

(and a bunch of docs crap that doesn't matter)

so all those get added up and that's your score for the day (for the purpose of the badge)

Catija

Wait, so spending rep on downvotes don't count... interesting.

E.P.

1:02 AM

@Shog9 wait, just "postUpvoted"?

Shog9

@Catija yeah. That's old.

Catija

But it only includes upvotes that actually counted.

E.P.

no cap?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer: Path too long, but it's not? by Peter Cook on superuser.com

Shog9

@E.P. the list is the types of rep gain/loss that matter. If you didn't earn any rep for a vote, it counts but, uh... doesn't contribute.

E.P.

1:03 AM

so the badge counter should be seeing all the other votes that ended up not contributing rep?

Shog9

it'll see 'em, they just don't matter

E.P.

@Shog9 don't matter to the badge counter or to the rep?

Shog9

well, either

what I'm not quite seeing yet is why that last unupvote didn't allow a previous vote to count.

E.P.

hmmmm

Shog9

I guess we only calculate forward?

Catija

1:06 AM

That's always been my understanding.... that's why people with tons of downvotes when they only have one rep and then get an upvote don't immediately lose that rep... once the vote is counted, if the rep change doesn't happen, it doesn't ever happen.

E.P.

@Catija but Shog seems to be saying that the counters for rep and for the tracker are not identical

Shog9

that is, it would've allowed a subsequent upvote to award full rep, but as it stands you only earned a net 190 for the day from votes and then lost another 15 for the unaccept. For the purpose of the badge, downvotes just don't matter - but that still leaves you with only 179 for the day.

Catija

@E.P. They're not... downvotes given or received don't count against you for the badge.

E.P.

@Shog9 so you're saying that this is the system working as intended?

Shog9

yep. If you'd gotten the re-accept 31 seconds sooner, and the next upvote 58 seconds sooner, you'd have qualified for the day.

E.P.

1:11 AM

an old OP vacillates for one minute about whether to pass the accept to their answer and immediately decides against that, this just happens to pass straddling the GMT midnight, and that kills a day of hard work and carefully crafted answers for a wide public?

Shog9

Gotta admit, really unfortunate time to vacillate

E.P.

or, you could just strike those four events from the database and recalculate

heck, you could just re-timestamp them so that they don't straddle midnight

Shog9

wait, I made a mistake: the unaccept doesn't matter.

both the accept and unaccept came on the same day; they cancel each other.

The unupvote is the only action relevant here

Catija

No, the accept was back in 2015.

Journeyman Geek

@E.P. that tends to hurt but eh. Happens?

Shog9

1:14 AM

@Catija ?!

...oh good grief, they unaccepted twice on the 15th

unaccept, accept, unaccept [day rolls over] ...accept

E.P.

@JourneymanGeek sorry, but that's not constructive right now.

Catija

Only a single unaccept shows up on the rep change history on the user page.

Shog9

yeah, ok, so one of the unaccepts was canceled out, but the other one still matters.

E.P.

@Shog9 they had just seen this cool new thing which they felt answered their old question and they had just posted it as an answer

@Shog9 because it just happened to straddle GMT midnight

Shog9

yep

to be fair, this only gets more complicated if we try to figure arbitrary 24-hour windows

E.P.

1:16 AM

so, you could just re-timestamp them and have the badge counter show some respect for users' hard toil

Shog9

yeah, that's out of my control

I can remove votes, but not add or modify

E.P.

@Shog9 can you remove the unupvote?

Shog9

I can, but that doesn't help

E.P.

@Shog9 how so?

Shog9

the unaccept is still gonna bring you up short

E.P.

1:19 AM

@Shog9 and you can't remove the unaccept

Shog9

right

E.P.

so, I should just accept that SE flipped a coin and decided it was time to **** me over?

Shog9

eh... I'd chalk it down to bad luck. This is a... pretty weird situation.

E.P.

maybe do a small bit of ragequitting, go downvote people's posts, remove some valuable answers while I'm at it?

Shog9

that will only lead to weird situations for other people

E.P.

1:23 AM

@Shog9 I'm not particularly minded to care about whether other people have weird situations come up

Shog9

well, neither was this asker apparently

Journeyman Geek

@E.P. that's probably what the other guy thought. Do you want to be like the other guy?

E.P.

@Shog9 the other guy had no reason to know that their actions would carry these consequences

SE has complete access to the database

Shog9

I wouldn't have guessed it either to be honest

E.P.

and (being reasonable people) they could accept that this is a freak accident and that a bit of mending of timelines to reflect the time-binning as perceived by the voter would mend some unfortunate code behaviour

Ano

1:25 AM

@Catija I suggested edits to the tag wiki and excerpt for site-recommendation to ask people to explicitly phrase their questions as asking for recommendations.

Journeyman Geek

@E.P. but... if you rage quit, and downvote people's answers for this... does that mean you're being unreasonable? ;p

Shog9

you can make a feature-request; consolidating actions across days is likely to be a headache though. But, someone on the dev team could easily be more clever than me.

As I said, I'd just chalk it up to bad luck.

E.P.

@Shog9 I worked hard on that HNQ answer.

Shog9

I don't doubt it

Ano

@Shog9 @E.P. What's the situation here?

E.P.

1:27 AM

and I kept posting despite already having hit the rep-cap

@Ano the tracker for the Legendary badge decided that my rep-cap day didn't count because the OP on an old answer decided to unupvote+unaccept my answer a minute before GMT midnight and then re-upvote+re-accept a minute after GMT midnight.

@Shog9 so I'm not at all minded to "just chalk it up to bad luck"

Ano

@Shog9 What's your overall take on that?

E.P.

I'm minded to chalk it up to imperfect code with a freak loophole that'll just randomly shaft high-quality contributions (and, if that also pans out, to SE unwillingness to mend a freak accident)

Journeyman Geek

@E.P. I think the term I use is "edge case"

Shog9

Sorry. There are things I can do to adjust the record for badges where we can't always hit the right criteria, but... This isn't one of them.

Ano

@E.P. It's just another day. Just hit it one more time. It's really not that bad since you've been doing that so many times.

E.P.

1:31 AM

@Shog9 I don't buy that. SE has full access to the database. There will obviously things that are easier to do and things that require a bit more fiddling.

Ano

@E.P. The question is would they, not could they.

E.P.

@Ano rep-cap days might come cheap for you; they don't for me. It's not 'just another day'.

Journeyman Geek

@E.P. but, does it scale? Do we want everyone who gets hit by a random, wild, unaccept to complain cause it'll get fixed? Are users affected in a meaningful practical way?

E.P.

@JourneymanGeek does "show some flex" scale? I dunno.

Ano

@E.P. I really don't think the user was doing that in an attempt to troll. I think that they just happened by coincidence to do it at that precise minute.

E.P.

1:33 AM

@Ano I never said so either. Like I said, this is a freak accident.

Journeyman Geek

@E.P. if they do it for one user, they'd have to do so for many. And... manually fixing things like that's ... not exactly scalable.

If it happened to someone on say SU? I'd be like "sorry dude!"

Ano

To be frank I don't see any cause for action here. Would rather not waste dev time to fix some rare coincidence that happens extremely rarely.

E.P.

Like I said, this gets fixed by manually altering the timestamps on the votes so that they all fall on the same side of GMT midnight.

there's no need to change code

Ano

Plus, if they do it with you, other users may take an example for that and ask for things to be tweaked everywhere, even in cases where it's even less warranted.

E.P.

there's a simple solution

Ano

1:35 AM

@E.P. That's destroying evidence in my opinion.

Journeyman Geek

@E.P. erm. "simple"

One does not simply edit a database manually.

2

Ano

5 mins ago, by Ano

@E.P. It's just another day. Just hit it one more time. It's really not that bad since you've been doing that so many times.

E.P.

ok, it seems the guy with some empathy isn't willing to act on it and the conversation has shifted to people with no power to change things, limited empathy, and plenty of willingness to go into snark.

I guess I'll chalk it down to unwillingness of SE to mend their code when it shafted me.

Catija

@Ano. If there's one thing I've learned, invalidating people's feelings generally isn't a good tack.

2

Journeyman Geek

@E.P. erm.. see, for you, its about "me". And there's a great big set of things other than you. And "mend their code" kinda makes it like SE's code kicked your dog or something.

E.P.

1:40 AM

@JourneymanGeek please see above re: 'empathy' and 'snark'.

Ano

@Catija How did I "invalidate people's feelings"?

Journeyman Geek

Its an unfortunate incident, but you're kinda been ... well, I've seen one threat to ragequit, and a bunch of ... blame for what's essentially an arbitrary daily high score.

E.P.

If you're not going to recognize that this is a legitimate grievance, given that you joined the conversation halfway through, then I'd ask you to re-read from the top.

Ano

In my opinion, badges are just badges, and you just earn them for normal actions. Usually, I don't target badges, I just earn them through my normal use of the site.

E.P.

@Ano By repeating a comment that had already been pointed out to you as invalidating people's feelings.

Journeyman Geek

1:41 AM

@E.P. well, I've had it happen to me before. But I went "meh". Its easier to be empathic to people who're empathic to the fact that... sometimes its just not possible to get things the way you want them.

E.P.

@JourneymanGeek "it's easier to show empathy for people like me" isn't how empathy works

Journeyman Geek

@E.P. Well, try to put yourself in @Shog9's shoes?

cause empathy kinda works both ways here.

Shog9

no, I'm still wearing them

Ano

@Shog9 What is "stacman"?

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 ... whose shoes did I steal?

E.P.

1:43 AM

@JourneymanGeek I did. I perfectly understand that he's reached the limitations of his access to the code.

Shog9

...look, I've dug through all the relevant code here & I don't see a way I can do anything without very likely breaking it worse.

Accept isn't just a vote; there's other bits of state and history that go along with it.

Jenna Sloan

@Ano github.com/StackExchange/StacMan

Shog9

We're... No one is really supposed to mess with it. There's a means of invalidating it completely for fraud cases, but no way to change or rewrite it.

If I mess with it, there's a very good chance the answer ends up in limbo, neither accepted nor unaccepted, and very much not an improvement over the current situation.

ArtOfCode

@E.P. I've just read from the top. Here's $0.02: Editing a database manually is risky. It's not just liable to breaking things, but it messes with the canonical record, which leaves wiggle room for malicious people to say "you edited the canonical record then, so you must have done something to mess with me" and cause controversy. Not saying that's you, just that it opens the door for people to do that. I appreciate that you worked hard, but unfortunately the fix for this just isn't sustainable.

E.P.

@Shog9 and I imagine it's not possible to add another pair of accept+unaccept inside the current straddle

Shog9

1:46 AM

nope

E.P.

@Shog9 can you share more detailed reasons?

Shog9

@E.P. we don't really go back and recreate history outside of carefully-planned updates. Things like synthesizing deletion records for situations where we didn't formerly track them, etc. And that's, uh, way above my level of ability and access.

That's the kind of thing you'd get a couple of people to spend a week planning and testing before running on production.

E.P.

@Shog9 OK, thanks for clarifying.

I guess I just got shafted by a freak accident.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer: Mom accuses dad of cheating by user12810 on interpersonal.SE

Ano

2:34 AM

@Catija What do you think about my proposed tag wiki? I suggested it in response to your comment on a recent site-rec question.

Optimus Prime

3:08 AM

Thanks for the report. This will be fixed in next prod build - Team Stack Overflow

user202362

4:48 AM

What if we make an A.I. sheep herder? And put all the border collies out of jobs, heheh.

Sensible Alexander

6:32 AM

@TelautonomousKitty AI-controlled gun... like The Dominator from Psycho Pass maybe...

SmokeDetector

7:33 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer: Shutting down my windows 8.1, it says Screenshot App not responding, but i dont have any such apps installed by media player on superuser.com

Ano

8:14 AM

@RougetheBat What a coincidence!

Rouge the Bat

Hm?

Why?

status-confusion

@Ano

Ano

@RougetheBat We showed up in the room at the same time

Rouge the Bat

Oh

I have been around for a while longer though, but I got bored ans played a game which disconnected me

Ano

8:32 AM

cv-pls wash this question away: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/307060/washing-machine

Rouge the Bat

8:52 AM

status-almost-burned

Shadow Wizard

9:46 AM

@Ano washed

Rouge the Bat

All nice and clean now

Feeds

9:59 AM

For a while, some physicists worked on a theory unifying the other forces with both the force of gravity and the film "Gravity," but even after Alfonso CuarÃ³n was held in a deep underground chamber of water for 10^31 years he refused to sell his film to Disney.

Ano

10:14 AM

@RougetheBat I'm DJing a party tomorrow; can you suggest some good songs?

Derpy

@Ano My Sweet Passion.

Rouge the Bat

@Ano Fly Away by TheFatRat?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: bitcoin paper wallet--multiple addresses by TradingPeek on bitcoin.SE

Derpy

10:37 AM

..... there is a TROGDOR flash game.

SmokeDetector

10:57 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer: Math and Music theory books by jeanrhall on math.SE

Derpy

11:55 AM

random rant of the day.

about the possibility of USA banning "Chinese" smartphones like Huawei...

What defines a "Chinese smartphone" ?

Last time I checked, IPhones were manufactured in China...

Rouge the Bat

12:16 PM

they don't mean produced in china, they mean where the companies themselves are based in China (i.e. Apple is American even though the phones are produced in China)

user202362

for tax purpose probably

user202362

interestingly a news article addressed google as "world's biggest ads company"

user202362

maybe valley is the wall street of US west coast nowadays

Derpy

12:41 PM

@RougetheBat my point was that since they are going on the "assume they can be compromised" route, then there is no reason you shouldn't also assume that the assembly line in a foreign country wasn't compromised too.

Rouge the Bat

true

Optimus Prime

12:56 PM

I heard that Apple manufacture phones in china because the work efficiency of chinese people are very high

Ano

1:08 PM

@Shog9 The app no longer works. This is a critical issue to fix in the app (they said they'll still fix critical bugs in the app) and I think this is an "emergency" (per Shog's rules of pinging). meta.stackexchange.com/questions/307053/…

@OptimusPrime It's ironic that if you want to bring the phones back to China, you have to smuggle them

the4kman

I think it's a horrible decision to abandon the mobile apps of SO/SE.

Ano

@the4kman It still works for me, I can't repro

Raspberry Pi moved production from the UK to China due to its popularity

Magisch

@OptimusPrime economies of scale + very very low labour costs

Derpy

@Ano What if all the raspberries have been turned into spying devices! Stop using them! And also ban raspberries cakes too, just to be sure!

Magisch

lets just ban everything not hand-approved by the CIA

only way to be sure

SmokeDetector

1:21 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer: What are currently used types of certificates and what they can be used for? by AaronSmith on security.SE

Derpy

to be fair, I am not even trying to discuss politics at this point. One country or the other doesn't really matter. It is the paranoia fuel that makes me laugh.

Magisch

the aluminum foil hattery is out of control at this point

wonders where the complete and utter polarization of politics will lead

It's never been easier to not even be exposed to an opposing viewpoint outside of carefully crafted strawmen

Derpy

At this point.. who knows? Maybe <foreign country>'s tomatoes should be banned too. They could contain chemicals developed to turn enemy armies into weaklings.

Forgive the lame joke... but I think they start focusing on facts before fears. If they feel there is the need to perform serious investigations do them...

but please, return when you have actual data.

Magisch

data isn't convincing

Optimus Prime

Hi Team SO, With new build went live, the security issue is somewhat fixed. But still not completely. Please read my reply to the email. (If someone star this, I don't have to ping shog about this again)

Magisch

1:25 PM

about all the aspects of a political campaign (election or policy promotion) the actual reality is at best a sideshow to the real work

Optimus Prime

Google seriously think I am a robot

Thanks for the treat @Google. But is that all you got???

Tweeted by Sagarvd01 on February 13, 2018 at 5:53 PM

Magisch

@OptimusPrime You're from india

geographical bias in recaptcha and cloudflare is a thing

Optimus Prime

and burp is another thing... I think

Journeyman Geek

1:50 PM

y

oops

Optimus Prime

z

Journeyman Geek

(doing some stuff that dosen't have a -a flag on another terminal)

Optimus Prime

tested for XSS on MSO and found a weird behaviour. Not XsS. It is secured

The text is shifted from it's original position

@JourneymanGeek terminal? lol

Journeyman Geek

erm

kinda?

SmokeDetector

2:11 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer, blacklisted user: How to buy using Kucoin? by TradingPeek on bitcoin.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer, username similar to website in answer: How to I enable or disable notifications for comments on Facebook ads? by Faizan Athar on webapps.SE

Ano

@JourneymanGeek You're good at feedback, can you supply some here? meta.stackexchange.com/questions/307072/…

Derpy

2:30 PM

@JourneymanGeek I've seen things you humans wouldn't believe. Sheeps digging inside SharePoints config DB and tweaking records by hand....

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user: What are currently used types of certificates and what they can be used for? by AaronSmith on security.SE

Journeyman Geek

@Ano done. Even referenced seinfeld

@Derpy if its sheep, wouldn't it be by hoof?

Derpy

2:57 PM

Sheep:
1.
a domesticated ruminant mammal with a thick woolly coat and (typically only in the male) curving horns. It is kept in flocks for its wool or meat, and is proverbial for its tendency to follow others in the flock.
sinonimi: ram, ewe, lamb, wether, bellwether; Altro
tup;
informaljumbuck, woolly

a wild mammal related to this, such as the argali, bighorn, bharal, and urial.

2.
used with reference to people who are too easily influenced or led.

@JourneymanGeek Number 2.

They usually find the "fix" in a blog and try it without even thinking.

Btw, any manual operation done on SharePoint databases invalidates whatever warranty you may had.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Shortened URL in answer: How can I get a socially awkward team, which lacks good interpersonal skills, communicating more effectively? by WWPTV on workplace.SE

Derpy

3:26 PM

Good. The brioche I left near the PC air fan is slowly warming up...

Derpy

3:37 PM

soon it will be ready, warn as if it just left the oven.

M.A.R.

3:55 PM

@Derpy it should be on fire by now

Derpy

@M.A.R. It is fine.

M.A.R.

@Derpy *fire

Sensible Alexander

user315433

6:41 PM

2

Q: Personal Productivity Stack Exchange will be closing on March 6th

We recently opened a call for new moderators to step up and help lead this site, which was met with a few upvotes and a lot of tumbleweeds rolling by. Given the non-existent interest there, we were forced to look more closely at the health of this site and whether this community is suitable to co...

user315433

animuson the beta slayer

user315433

Please let Health be next one.

Sensible Alexander

is there a list of closed beta sites with the date?

user315433

No. I try to keep track of public ones... here in chat, mostly.

user315433

The previous one was Startups, closed 2017-12-11

user315433

6:49 PM

Compromise regarding 404 polyglot: use it in mobile apps, as the only thing they display. Hopefully they won't crash so much then.

Sensible Alexander

I wonder what the upvoters would do if the request to revert 404 polyglot got status-declined

(because I think it would)

rene

They move to Reddit

user315433

@SensibleAlexander have the status-declining employee hung and drawn and quartered… - and whipped and boiled… and then chopped up to little bits.

rene

sounds reasonable

Zaid

I seeking advice or experiences on cleaning up tags. Are there any SE sites that underwent a small-to-medium-scale tagging revamp? Lessons learnt, strategies adopted, best practices, etc.

rene

7:02 PM

@Zaid SOCVR has written a FAQ on tag burnination: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/324070/…

Sensible Alexander

burnination FAQ is the first thing that came to my mind... but tagging revamp seems... a bigger issue

rene

and an evaluation of the try runs: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/323121/…

Zaid

@rene thanks

I was going to ask if burnination involves restructuring

5

Q: Time to revisit the [make]/[model] tagging methodology?

So there's this question about tagging model-specific questions when the site was still in its infancy: Tagging for Make/Model/Year specific questions? Back then the community made a decision to keep make and model separate, but I don't see why we should not be combining the two into one tag: m...

discussion tagging

^ For some context (this isn't the whole story, mind)

rene

On MSO we have meta.stackoverflow.com/tags/tag-disambiguation/info meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/clean-up meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/retag-request to name a few that are often combined when you take on a large burnination

And that also involves other moderation like editing, voting etc.

Wes

Guys I replied to a comment. Then the comment disappeared is this normal?

0

Q: Shared state in functional application

Okay I'm trying to understand how to do programming without variables. I've managed a simple tic-tac-toe game but it depended on a tail recursive state and as far as I can tell would only work in a single thread. Example can be seen at https://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/187339/scala...

scala web-applications functional-programming

rene

7:13 PM

@Wes sure. Comments are not meant to be on a post forever.

Wes

I mean by the time I had a reply typed

it disappeared

rene

Did it contain any swear words? Or Thanks

Wes

No said my question was invalid

rene

Maybe they had second thoughts

Wes

which I waas trying to understand. Or sugestive

Shog9

7:14 PM

The author deleted their comment. Don't know why

Wes

Okay thanks

Should I delete my reply to that comment? I've a feeling my question will end up closed as a dup eventually anyway.

rene

@Wes that question does seem rather broad to be honest.

@Wes I would clean up, yeah.

Shog9

@Wes might as well. Absent further information, my guess would be the author decided his concern wasn't warranted.

Wes

Okay thanks guys its gone the comment not the question.

Shog9

the answer here is probably something like "functional programs treat shared state as external systems, barbarian wastelands of which no civilized man need know", but I do think it is answerable

Sensible Alexander

7:17 PM

re: "having to go back and re-tag or de-tag previous posts" on the meta post, I think there's a mod tool to rename tag without bumping... or my memory probably tricked me

Wes

@rene I struggled to keep the question focused. I mean the root of the question is focused. Shared state multiple threads how

Shog9

195

Q: How can you do anything useful without mutable state?

I've been reading a lot of stuff about functional programming lately, and I can understand most of it, but the one thing I just can't wrap my head around is stateless coding. It seems to me that simplifying programming by removing mutable state is like "simplifying" a car by removing the dashboa...

functional-programming state

Catija

@SensibleAlexander We can merge a tag into a new tag, which is effectively the same thing... and then make them synonyms.

Shog9

that's from the related sidebar

Wes

I linked a few @Shog9 but the answers of that were contradictory.

:)

Catija

7:18 PM

But we can't bulk remove tags, we have to get a CM to do that.

Shog9

that itself kinda sez something, eh? ;-)

rene

@Wes did you verify if it would fit on SoftwareEngineering.se?

Wes

No never tried SE I don't think

I probably have I've been using SE for a while.

If its off topic here I can delete.

rene

Your question has this whiteboard/fuzzy feel .... and on SE.SE they do take those kind of questions

Shog9

eh; I don't think it's off topic

It'd probably be fine on SE.SE, but SE.SE's scope is a little bit more refined than "things folks feel fuzzy about"

Wes

7:21 PM

Is there a chat room for there where I can ask them if they think the question is appropiate for their site. Actually I think its answerable but may be a dup of the question @Shog9 linked even though I've specifically added the threads in there

Shog9

The Whiteboard

General Discussion for softwareengineering.stackexchange.com P...

Sensible Alexander

@Catija if I understand Mechanics.SE tag restructuring meta post correctly, then it's actually a tag rename (merge/synonym) case, not bulk remove tags, so I guess it's possible to do that conveniently..?

aside of the conclusion of that meta post, of course

Wes

Thanks I asked on The Whiteboard

Catija

@SensibleAlexander It's not completely convenient... you have to remove all of the tags that are currently on posts you don't want the new tag to be on because it's usually a lot easier to do that first. If it's a stupid thing like pluralizing something, no big deal... but if you're trying to disambiguate a couple of different concepts that happen to use the same terminology, it can be more complex.

Shog9

there are a bunch of questions about concurrency and functional programming on both sites already; the thing that tends to trip people up is that "threads" as they're usually discussed are built around non-functional patterns; the "thread" isn't just code running on another execution unit, by definition it has state that comes along for the ride and determines what can / can't run.

But even in procedural languages you can decouple logical units of code from the thread they're running on (and vice-versa)

So most of the questions end up being "I'm trying to write procedural code in a functional language so that I can use threads" and the answers end up being "don't do it that way"

Catija

7:26 PM

@SensibleAlexander In that case, if there are only ever one type of "leaf" or one type of "passat"... you shouldn't have any trouble... it's just a lot of work for the mods of the site to actually do.

Wes

@Shog9 That is helpful actually.

Shog9

cool

Sensible Alexander

@Catija yeah, fair point... the example list is small, but the actual case...

Catija

@SensibleAlexander but someone should really tell Zaid to cool down... have you see the front page right now?

Sensible Alexander

I... didn't... O_O

@Zaid please stop the manual retag, the meta post hasn't met its conclusion!

Shog9

7:32 PM

-1

Q: How Functional Programming addresses concurrent increment/decrement operations invoked by different users?

Using Functional language, How can 2 different parties achieve the result of increment/decrement operations concurrently? For the below scenario, Let's say, I've 2 quantities in stock and 2 users in e-commerce site block 1 quantity each concurrently. How can I mark the remaining stock as '0' i...

functional-programming concurrency haskell clojure parallel-programming

That one from SE.SE might be helpful, @Wes ^

Wes

@Shog9 Okay so basically I was kind of right in my internal assumptions. I.e. you do need mutable state.

maybe not a lot of it

but some of it.

Zaid

OK, I put the brakes on

Shog9

Yep. But, note how eloquently they restate my "barbarian wasteland" comment from above. "IO Monad" sounds way cooler.

Wes

Yeah but effectively its the same thing. Thought I was being an idiot for not GrokIng it

thats more or less why the conflicted answers on the previous questions fooled me.

Catija

@Zaid If you want to push for that solution, answer the question and explain why you think it's a good option. I don't think it's bad and it will probably require some manual work (to remove the make) but a lot of the changing tags can be done without actually editing the post, so in some cases, it may be easier to have a mod change the model tags into make-model tags and then just leave the make tags there unless you need the extra space.

Shog9

7:37 PM

Ideally, you structure your program so that units of work are passing their results back (possibly across threads, but that's not your concern) and thus nothing is touching the same memory simultaneously. But, when that's not possible... You give up your purity in the name of getting shit done.

Zaid

I was treating the upvotes as tacit approval. It's not like the mods are unaware of what I'm trying to do

Shog9

Read up on lock free concurrent data structures in C++ some time if you really want to have fun

Catija

@Zaid I'm suggesting that there may be a way to go about it that doesn't fill the front page of the site with long-dead posts. and without having to edit every single post on the site.

Wes

hahaha i'm not that clever to use a language without memory management maybe if you gave me some pointers. yuk yuk

Shog9

;-P

Zaid

7:40 PM

@Catija that would be good, though I still expect some level of manual intervention

@Catija could you remove this comment?

Catija

@Zaid I did already... like ten minutes ago.

Zaid

ok

Guess I needed to refresh the page

Catija

Yeah, only comment additions are indicated :)

Once I saw you come in here, I pulled it.

Sensible Alexander

Also, protip: if you're really into editing, then please improve the whole post... the last retag has a title "2000 mazda 626 v6" that doesn't tell the issue. But then again, please cool down for a moment...

Zaid

@SensibleAlexander I was doing that earlier today. That's what brought this whole tag perestroika vision into focus

Believe me, I hate seeing questions with those sorts of titles

Sensible Alexander

7:47 PM

I believe you :)

The Whiteboard

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