@rene I talked to Jon. It's legit. He's writing an answer.

So, I was going to post something and wanted to make sure I have this right... In this blog post stackoverflow.blog/2018/02/08/… it states that all question navigation will be moved to a left side bar as shown in the pictures. Is that correct?

Jon said something about them integrating some of the features from New Nav... but I don't think he said where.

"How will it impact important workflows like reviewing posts or answering questions?" Am I correct to assume that this design will be for every page, and not just shown for question navigation?

@TravisJ you should post any questions you have about it

the feedback on this is important and shouldn't get lost in chat

@bluefeet I am, but I want to make sure my post is accurate before posting. It is already written.

@TravisJ I'd probably focus on one of the images that actually ahve the top bar filled in.

@TravisJ okie :)

@bluefeet Will that only be on a subset of pages, or for every page?

@TravisJ in our prototype it exists everywhere

@Catija Don't worry, I have a hand drawn red circle :P

@bluefeet Okay, thanks

sure thing

@bluefeet Any tag suggestion?

It's everywhere right now, right?

No, that was just the prototype image

new-new-nav :P

lol

meta-meta-meta

I currently have: feature-request design new-nav blog

@TravisJ I mean those links are everywhere in the current navigation style.

@TravisJ those will work

we'll adjust if needed

Okay, posted here: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/306812/please-dont-sidebar-me

What's a multi-collider?

The burger icon

I really don't think they're going to get rid of the top bar they just spent a year developing and working the kinks out of.

The top bar isn't removed though.

You're accusing them of (in future) getting rid of the top bar and moving the multicollider into the sidebar...

> What's next, moving the entire multi-collider into the side bar in order to make the links more visible? There is quite a lot of information in the multi-collider, why can't this approach be used for features?

I don't even know how site selection would work if it were in the sidebar instead of the top bar.

That was a tongue-in-cheek comment indicating that is the path this type of design mentality leads to.

They are moving these two things into a sidebar:

I think the intention there is to make more room for the sub-headings to have more choices, rather than being stuck with all three of those in the top banner at all times.

@TravisJ I'd cut that. It makes the rest of your post too easy to dismiss as ranty.

It starts getting really crowded in the top bar otherwise.

@JonEricson Yeah, that's my feeling, too.

@JonEricson Okay, removed.

@Catija indeed, looks like a major change with tons of cheese being moved is going to happen, but I'm not sure it's really bad. /cc @Travis

To note though, this is ranty, and I couldn't really prevent that very well. The design leaves me with a really bad feels. Sorry

I'll have to see it in action before deciding if I'm for or against it.

@TravisJ reminds me of my objection to the new new top bar....

Though this one is bigger change.

@Catija thanks! Appreciated.

@ShadowWizard Yeah, but I feel like a lot of the objections people had to the new top bar were nitpicky, like this here, or that there, but overall most users were okay with moving forward on some type of top bar design.

@TravisJ well this one is the same, just bigger scale. They move things around.

Ideally, they will let people test it before launching, possibly by opting in like the New Navigation R.I.P

This way they can fix most problems before launching it.

They are removing a significant amount of screen space. Before it was just a change of like 16 pixels x width on the top, while the top scroll was 0. Now it is what looks like 10% x height, constantly.

I would probably not use the site until I designed a different face as an extension for the navigation if this happens. It would almost make sense to design an entire website just for navigating Stack Overflow instead of dealing with this type of change.

@ShadowWizard Yeah... I think that, right now, everything is in flux... and even between now and rollout dates, they're going to keep sharing with us updates so that we can see how things look.

@TravisJ I'm willing to admit that, as someone with a lot of interest in Channels who has no usage of SO at all, I share your SO integration concerns.

If there's going to be a hamburger menu in the upper right for mobile/tablet views... I wonder that it wouldn't be possible to integrate that for all versions of the site.

@bluefeet is there a section missing from the blog? The third bullet point seems to mention smaller screens... is that only referring to tablets and mobile devices, not computers with small screens?

> What about people using smaller screen sizes? Adding a vertical left navigation increases the page width, and how will we support people across a range of screen sizes and devices?

@Catija not sure how much more besides the section User is viewing on a tablet or mobile: there was supposed to be

@bluefeet Is there any sort of indication whether the base website width for full site view is changing? Are they sticking with the current ~1k px width or increasing to allow for the new sidebar?

@Catija You'd have to ask a question about it on MSE. I'm not enough in the know to be able to answer that and if you have the question I'm sure others might.

@bluefeet That's fair. :) And done.

@Catija Support might be more applicable a tag for that?

Not really much to discuss :P

Maybe? I'm not actually always sure. :D

I always view it as discussion for when an answer would be expected with ideas or responses and there isn't always a "correct" answer so to speak, support for when an answer would be expected with a solution to the question, and there is a "correct" answer for the most part, bug and FR seem a little more straightforward.

@Catija thanks

Asking questions on Friday afternoons simply isn't profitable. :(

lol

@Shog9 Why don't this and this show up in each other's Linked sections, despite the latter linking to the former? The link was in the original post, removed later, but reinstated due to a rollback. I then edited it to a longer form, but it still didn't add it.

@JoeFriend If the goal is to unify the design across the different implementations of SE, why not just put the program in the unified version of the 404 page?

Hey @Joe :D

@Catija Hey, I'm here, so you know something exciting is happening. ;)

@JoeFriend Everything you do is exciting, Joe :D

@Ano You referring to the error pages?

@JoeFriend Yes.

@JoeFriend Would you quickly tag as status-declined a feature-request to add it back?

@Ano Basic reason is that it isn't relevant or understandable for non-technical sites. Currently the SE sites don't use the new error pages, but ultimately we will need to unify things there too. There are a ton of moving parts right now and we are working hard to get them all in place.

Oh, by the way, @JoeFriend I see you finally managed a diamond on MSE :D Congrats. I guess we won't be so startled to see you in the TL any more. :P

@JoeFriend Awww, you mean that the custom error pages are going away? :(

@JoeFriend So no more snapshots of the edge of Area 51? No more person trying to open up a computer on SU?

@Catija Ha. I finally gave in a requested it so i could manage stuff easier.

@JoeFriend There was a time when the community had to approve your edits

@Ano Final details are still being worked out. If we support the custom pages in the future we need to do so in a way that is scalable and easy to maintain.

What maintenance issue triggered the need to unify them to scale?

@Ano I didn't ask for the diamond until I'd earned that privilege, if I remember correctly. Much to everyones frustration

@JoeFriend I appreciated the review queue tasks. :D

@Catija How about those from me?

@TravisJ It isn't one single thing. We are working toward greater unification across the board. Every little bit of forking that's done causes friction in the system and slows down work and flow of new stuff to the network sites. That's the impetus.

@Ano Hey, I'm good now. Now MSO folks just have to listen to someone with 101 rep.

@JoeFriend ha

What about the ability to use different technologies to solve problems or implement features at Stack Overflow (the company)? Is that also being removed in favor a single environment (.net)?

@TravisJ Not sure I understand the question.

There was a blog post (trying to find it) about integrating technologies at Stack Overflow, and how developers were allowed to use technologies outside of the .net stack so long as they had usable endpoints - such as using GO in some cases, f# in others. I am having issues finding the post at the moment. That was what I meant though, is it only going to be c# going forward that is used in development?

We standardized the dev environment a couple years back

Okay

Which isn't to say that new stuff can't be added to it if there's a reason, but ultimately it became more about keeping build machines more maintainable, not having to train people up on a ton of different tech or betting on tech that may or may not be proven yet

C# has been the primary environment since day 1. The SRE team primarily uses Go. There's a lot of R on the data science side.

We don't mix other languages (as far as I know) into the Q&A platform backend itself though

Sometimes it is hard to remember which year correlated to which decision, especially as an outsider looking in.

it's hard to keep it all straight as an insider too :)

:P

@JoeFriend Monica's mentioning that I'm off in my page width measurement... I've always understood that it's around 1k px, and that's what I put in my question but she seems to think it's bigger... can you clarify? You didn't say that my width count was wrong, so I'm curious.

@Catija It's bigger than 1k, but you were generally on point so I didn't bother correcting.

It is exactly 1075 at present. Less than that is scrollbar, more is no scrollbar. Not sure where the 1300 number came from. It is certainly possible to have a 1300px wide document body while viewing Stack Overflow, but anything above 1075 will be horizontally scroll-less for now.

You can see that through the css declaration on body (and in other places), min-width: 1075px;.

@TravisJ Must depend on the browser... I get sidescroll at 1108 on MSE... also worth noting that different site designs scroll at different width.

At 1108? Which element is larger than 1075px that is causing the scrollbar?

I don't know... I'm using the browser size tester that Monica linked to.

odd

@AdamLear there's AngularJS in Jobs, no?

Do you use user scripts?

@ShadowWizard Maybe? I've not seen that code in a very long time.

I don't think of angular as a backend framework, though I guess I can see it both ways

Ah! The topbar makes it to 1090.

... Why is the top bar wider than the rest of the page??? GRRRR!

@Catija It had been capped at 1075, but the largest element on the page is now the top bar, min-width: 1090px;

shrugs, because waffles?

:sigh:

@AdamLear don't see it used there now, maybe it was just an experiment. :/

nah, we definitely used it in earnest for a while

@Ano well, he finally got a diamond on MSE...

@AdamLear oh, in Q&A too, not only Jobs?

@ShadowWizard And MSO.

@ShadowWizard Apparently you didn't notice the context. We were talking about the past, before he had a diamond.

@ShadowWizard no, just on Careers

@Catija he had diamond there all along, I think.

@AdamLear what's Carrers? ;)

@ShadowWizard Oh. Eh. I don't use it. :P

@Catija lol

@ShadowWizard What? That's your misperception.

Wait.. @Adam you said "we", so you worked on Careers/Jobs in the past?

no

@ShadowWizard I thought you were referring to a nonexistent misspelling

"we" as in "the company overall"

@Ano ohh lol.. nah just my own typo. o_O

@AdamLear oh, so nice of you. :)

@Ano Looks right to me...

@AdamLear would you be willing to check in on the lock timers on answers? meta.stackexchange.com/questions/131455/… Is this really still the case? I locked an answer on IPS and I don't think I changed the time away from the default 1 hour but I never saw a coundown on it and it's still locked over an hour later...

@Shog9 You tweaked something in the background; I refreshed before posting that message and it still didn't show it. Or is it just caching? If so, why was it so eager to remove the link, but so lazy to add it?

@Catija it's not even 6 years since the bug was reported, so it's not yet in the 6-8 scale. Give it time. ;)

@ShadowWizard Fine... I'll just sit and wait a bit.

lol

Only another four months.

... three...

@Ano yeah, I have no idea

the links table was out of date, but it refreshed just fine when poked

thinking it got confused

@Catija Heh. Yeah... looks broken.

@Shog9 you.. poked the table?

there's actually a moderator tool to rebuild links for any post

@AdamLear Fair. I didn't particularly want it to expire... so that's OK. :D

@Shog9 cool!

I don't think it's actually in the mod UI anywhere, but... It exists

oh like RO deleting messages of others... :)

Secret Mod Tools... because the non-secret ones aren't hard enough to use/find. ;)

Yup ^

@TimPost you OK? Looks like you got a cold. :D

Probably not even intended to be a mod tool as such; in the early days when there were only a few mods, Jeff tended to just add anything that wasn't super-dangerous to admin tools instead of making things dev-only

Really handy

Makes finding things fun.

Bet that if someone like @nicael or @alexolut will become moderator somewhere they'll find all those hidden tools.... :P

> Hey, it's not my fault 1000 users got insta banned, just tried something new I found!

... more like "Oops, I just deleted all of the posts on this site".

lol

Or nuked all tags at once.

replace all tags with untagged

hehe

that was totally possible at one point

you could merge a tag into nothing and the tag would just go away

All of the above?

That sounds... not so good.

@Shog9 but all tags at once?

@JoeFriend just curious, you aware of the bugs in IE11 that started recently?

e.g. can't start a bounty, no tag popup, and probably several more.

Ask Bill Gates ...

He's trying to bring back the blink HTML.

I know it's used by 3% of the people or so, but stil... this makes thousands of people.

@Catija Marching ants!

@rene he's busy donating all his money to charity.

@ShadowWizard No. I assume they are all tagged IE11? If so, I can go find them.

internet-explorer

@JoeFriend enjoy. :)

I don't think we usually specify versions on MSE...

... or at least, that's what they told me when I asked if we should have a specific tag for iOS 11. :(

IE11 is a big deal because many enterprises are slow to upgrade. One of the banes of my existence when I worked at MSFT was supporting really old versions of IE.

@JoeFriend ouch

@ShadowWizard I might go get that bounty if I can find the proper root cause for that bug.

At least they moved away from the Mac version :P

Whenever I visit my bank I see they use IE6 and flinch.

@ShadowWizard don't worry, your money is ... gone ...

Still better than Netscape?

@ShadowWizard Banks can be a real shit show when it comes to upgrading tech. And yet they often spend the most money on tech of any industry. Been to lots of fintech offices in NYC and London.

@Catija Mosaic?

Have a nice weekend everyone. I'm out.

@JoeFriend You too!

@Catija deal ...

@Catija not sure...

@rene or balance became -100000

@ShadowWizard no, that is your wife went shopping

takes cover

@JoeFriend well banks in Israel spend their money on one thing in recent years: moving to digital banking, i.e. making everything via website or app. And they close their actual branches one after the other. Good for young people, bad for older people.

Clearly y'all have no fear of the CMs any more...

@rene nah that would be -200000

@ShadowWizard new socks?

@rene lots of socks...... :D

@TelautonomousKitty could work for government agencies as well ...

@TelautonomousKitty that's true for any kind of industry, not just finance

@Catija I assume they are all happy, given the hour ...

But there are limits, e.g. Musk tried to build some 100% automated batteries factory and utterly failed, losing billions of dollars in the process.

(and losing trust of customers, who will now wait years for their car.)

singularityhub.com/2017/10/30/…

@Lix where have you been hiding all those years?? :D

... Um... eww.

@TelautonomousKitty oh, so that's the reason!

Are we actually making pedophilia jokes right now?... can we not?