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00:00 - 19:0019:00 - 00:00

12:10 AM
This mobile chat sux, it locks me out every time phone becomes inactive
Then I have to log back in again ...
Also @lax
2:24 AM
Still at airport ... not jealous of jet lagged lifestyle ...
Hope to never having to jet lag again
Although, unless die soon, it's highly unlikely ...
Never realised how many early ppl lining up 4 hours prior to departing ...
Almost always latest 10%
late birds, unite!
2:36 AM
@Elias Something like that...
> Now 2.5 hours into the macOS upgrade and still only a spinner. Given this is paving the drive with a new file system only a spinner is NUTS. pic.twitter.com/UQWb58ZiWw -- Nick Craver at 7:26 PM - 26 Sep 2017
2:50 AM
The 3rd time departing the US ... that's not even counting trips to Mexico & Canada
7:45 AM
2 hours later...
2 Hours 1 minute later..
1 hour later…
8:56 AM
26 Minutes later...
The internet is not that amusing today I suppose.
@Telkitty when are you back? There's a job you may be interested in. Obj C
@YvetteColomb is there any job for me in Angular?
I downvoted this question because the OP approved that edit
@redhand seriously? another name. I'm ignoring you man. Too much - I have to go to your profile every time you talk to me, to find out who you are
@YvetteColomb why? didn't you talk to strangers?
if no, then for the first time when we talked, we are completely strangers :p
9:15 AM
@redhand didn't your mom tell you not to talk to strangers?
@JourneymanGeek in childhood, yes. But not now
If you didn't talk to strangers, you can't talk to anyone. When you go to school, all of them are strangers.
until you talk to them, they are strangers for you
@ShaWizDowArd did you lost the track on me?
then blame Oded for that
9:38 AM
@redhand no u
10:09 AM
@redhand meta.stackexchange.com/questions/301404/… is totally grounds for getting a book of anvils thrown at you with the kitchen sink
@redhand yup
So Oded is another sock of Jeff?
no. blame oded because you lost track on me after these much days. if he didn't implemented, you may lost it very very early
@redhand Oded did not hold a banana to your head and make you change nicks so often ;p
@JourneymanGeek that's very tempting now.
@Oded too much white.
10:50 AM
@JourneymanGeek I've changed so often even without that. but now he's preventing me from doing so. I ask @Sha to blame him not for losing track of me. Instead, it took these much days for him to lose track on me. for that only I want sha to blame.
no no no. See, you changed it so often cause it was broken,
Now its fixed
totally your fault
Since Oded fixed that, I wish he could change this from to
@JourneymanGeek no. why they fixed it? when I opened a bug report, I wish it should take a 6-8 weeks. But they fixed it immediately. I think Oded self-assigned it and fixed it coz some members messaged here that they can't keep track of me
"You wish"
If wishes were fishes we'd all cast nets ;p
I mean, you're blaming oded for being efficient? ;p
@JourneymanGeek exactly
I think claiming he was holding a banana to your head is much more credible...
10:57 AM
@redhand nope. Oded did not fix that, and feature request can't be fixed as it's not a bug. I really don't get you today, sorry....
(maybe we're in different modes?)
@ShaWizDowArd I think feature requests will be assigned after discussion of CM's internally
Allowing us to select what sites to update is a very long time request and very popular, but most likely it will never be done.
11:10 AM
@redhand actually, I think dev team also has some pretty significant say there, especially with DAG
11:29 AM
So, what's NEW today?
I can't tell now that the button is gone.
@Michelle NEW today
@Michelle which one?
Nothing's new... keep moving on~
11:57 AM
20 messages moved to Chimney
by this way, a 1 rep user can participate in MSO
ask it in main site and let people migrate it meta.stackoverflow.com/q/357133/2427065
What Do Software Developers Use in Germany?
12:12 PM
Other than that crazy guy who does everything in long hand with a morse code key
12:56 PM
> I love cooking.I enjoy working.
(from the author's profile)
> Member for 7 years, 6 months
(on SO... more than most of us here)
Poor soul probably started working with SharePoint and found how horrible this is.
@ShaWizDowArd Last seen Jan 24 at 21:04
how to add that onebox effect?
the | before the message?
@redhand it's not onebox just quote format
Like in posts, using >
> foo bar baz
> testing
> [status-completed]
1:56 PM
@EdCottrell can you override this approved edit? stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/17458390
he is very careless while editing. he made 2 issues to code in this suggested edit stackoverflow.com/revisions/46442787/2
@redhand I'll handle this one because I'm looking at it now. In the future, though, please just raise a flag. Thanks!
@EdCottrell most of his edits are just to remove thanks or the signature. No other improvements are done. Is it acceptable?
throwing random ping @Sha
Ed, great. thanks for the support
@redhand That's not a big deal, but most of the edits also break things and add new errors. That is a big deal. We'll handle it; thanks.
@EdCottrell 👍
I think previously he got a suspension for socking
angular animations are painless. happy working with it
another suspension O_O ?
2:18 PM
2:28 PM
@Feeds Is anybody here a marine biologist vulcanologist?
What is so scary about studying a Star Trek race, anyway.
One moment you think you're making progress. THEN BAM, THEY NERVE PINCH YOU AND ACCUSE YOU OF BEING ILLOGICAL.
2:49 PM
is it required?
A: Disable hot questions to prevent distraction

CasimirEven simpler than Unhandled's suggestion would be to install uBlock (available for Chrome, Safari, Firefox and Opera) followed by right-clicking the hot network questions area (or any other site element for that matter) and choosing Block element

3:11 PM
@redhand its not likely to be officially supported
Required? Who knows
3:30 PM
is there a badge on mse for having an accepted answer to a question where an answer of a CM exist?
No nominations yet on CStheory, but at least someone noticed a weird broken link.
Why is there grinning Mark Zuckerberg on meta.com, anyway?
3:33 PM
> Meta is a tool that helps researchers understand what is happening globally in science and shows them where science is headed. The Chan Zuckerberg Initiative has acquired Meta to help bring its technologies to the entire scientific community.
Goodbye, Meta. :(
ah today was the last day to pay my exam fees. Forgot about it. from tomorrow onwards, it is public holiday till monday
@redhand there's no single site badges
also, that sounds more like a winterbash hat ;p
is there any winterbash this year?
3:38 PM
I would assume so
I want to travel through time to today noon 2PM, transfer money to someone I know and want him to pay my exam fee
3:49 PM
why there are links to ubuntu sites?
askubuntu is a bit different
@rene differences? listed anywhere or any meta post?
this bug is really irritating
@redhand plenty, use search
Q: Upcoming site design changes

JinA few weeks ago Canonical reached out to me about making some design changes on Ask Ubuntu to reflect the official Ubuntu site's new design guidelines. The goal is to keep all Ubuntu related sites(official or 3rd party) consistent. Currently on http://www.ubuntu.com, Ask Ubuntu is linked in the ...

4:05 PM
Speaking of which - why is askubuntu's site design weird? Too much space left everywhere or too wide are the margins - I don't know the right terms.
@NVZ that is a container view
okay, but i have no idea why that is so.
an 80% div with auto margin on left and right will do the job
that is a part of design
When it will be useful is a background image, then the container is transparent
That will make a good expression for sites on a particular category
@redhand i didn't quite catch that. sorry?
i still don't understand why there is a yuuge gap above the stackexchange bar and below the ubuntu bar.
like this
this is a demo I am having now. you can find good designs
also there are things like non-transparent.
4:37 PM
Erh, Town Hall.
Guess "Town Hall" topic...
1 hour later…
5:43 PM
Three mods decided to focus on their Physical Fitness instead of that of the site... fitness.meta.stackexchange.com/posts/73/revisions
@YvetteColomb I will be back to Sydney in a couple of hours, lol
have a close friend's weeding to attend within 2 days time, and yet to buy her a gift and getting a dress ...
invited to this A.I. event in SF by an organizer, was very interested but could not changing the schedule because this wedding
For anyone following my saga, here's the answer ...
A: Cannot connect to chocolatey.org or any other internet site from within container

jcolebrandAs comments are transient, here's some info for the next person trying to solve this problem. Please feel free to edit this answer to provide more details, unless you're a Docker for Windows pro, in which case please give a better answer :D I went to demo the problem for my IT group after having...

6:20 PM
7 messages moved to Chimney
Apparently no one wants to have their conversation cut abruptly short when the room gets put in timeout.
I feel like we should have a play-by-play of people discussing what might be discussed until the blue flood and everyone cuts away to actually listen.
The bucketlist of CM's
There's already a bunch of them in here but I never hang out in here to know whether they're just always here.
In my experience you can provoke them with some humor but don't look at me
Hey everyone! We’re just about ready to start up today’s Town Hall Chat. I’m going to put this room in timeout, go over the plan and the guidelines, and then give the floor to our hosts. Here we go!
6:30 PM
what are all these people doing here? There's like... at least 3 people talking.
I'm decidedly unfunny.
This room was placed in timeout for 1 minute; Town Hall Chat. Today’s topic: Shog Has Opinions On Vote Fraud
Like last time, we’re keeping the format of this chat pretty informal, in the hope that we’ll be able to keep setup easy and low-pressure so we can keep having these chats more regularly.
Two topics this week. First, Shog’s got Opinions about voting fraud. We’ll talk about that for the first half or so. Then in the second half, we’d like to hear from y’all about the future of these Town Hall Chats. We’ve reached the end of our trial period, so we want to know: is this useful? Do folks want these to continue?
As with last time, please keep the meta-chat to a minimum; we'll welcome feedback on the format and such on MSE after the show. We're going to do our level best to maintain a reasonable signal-to-noise ratio here, so if you're going to type words and hit enter, please keep them on topic.
So! Take it away, @Shog9!
...Voting fraud - using friends or sockpuppets to inflate your score or harass others - has been a problem on these sites since the very beginning. We have a number of automated tools in place to assist in finding and in some cases invalidating anomalous votes, but they often fall short.
A little over a year ago, I tested a new system on Ask Ubuntu. The accuracy was much improved, but the user experience left much to be desired. After a year of additional testing, tweaking and soul-searching, I’m preparing to run a similar test on Stack Overflow.
I expect... Weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(PSA: if your teeth are weeping, go see a dentist right away)
Anyone have any concerns about this? Anything else I should be looking out for?
6:32 PM
@hairboat likewise if your eyes are gnashing. Though maybe that's not a dentist job.
@Shog9 you plan to do this bit again?:
> 192 users were affected, most by only a few votes but some by hundreds - those people greatly affected by this I've sent messages in preparation for some consternation.
@Shog9 I mean, what does it entail?
For example: Database Administrators has a core group of folks
@Magisch isn't here?
We'll obviously cross upvote on the regular, just because we do agree that people are asking good questions and providing quality answers
So what's the delta between that and what you're proposing?
@jcolebrand It involves looking for patterns and then doing a deeper analysis on them, identifying groups of votes that are unlikely to be legit given the normal patterns on the site... And making it as though those votes were never cast.
In practical terms, it involves a bunch of people losing some reputation (or in some cases gaining it) along with a "voting corrected" entry in their rep history.
6:35 PM
How will that work out on small tags?
@Shog9 Will it have any effect on a user who is pretty active but only in a single main tag?
So, without asking you to divulge too much information, is it more than "these accounts only upvote X number of accounts, and not really any other accounts" or is it more widespread than that?
@rene awesome question
@jcolebrand yes to both
6:36 PM
And I'm assuming it's both upvote and downvote...
So this is an improvement on the existing vote correction script?
@rene reasonably well, with one exception. Most small tags have relatively placid voting patterns because they don't get a lot of questions
@thesecretmaster it's more like... an audit
The existing scripts will stay in place, at least for the time being
This goes beyond what they can reasonably detect, looking at patterns that span hours, days, weeks even and tries to establish a much higher level of confidence than the daily scripts are able to.
@Shog9 sounds interesting - when's the experiment happening (and did I miss the memo in the blue room or something?)
@JonClements when I get a good night's rest
so... 6-8 weeks
So before running the script that actually invalidates the votes (or makes the votes have never happened) you're doing a dummy check to make sure that it's not been overeager in attributing something to fraud?
6:39 PM
@Catija yes
@Shog9 So it's a one run thing?
@thesecretmaster initially, yes. Whether it becomes a weekly thing ongoing depends a lot on the outcome.
I would guess that those sorts of patterns, with a careful voter, might take months to become visible?
Is it only a voting reversed in your rep history or will your account get a mod notice?
To give a little bit more background: the motivation for doing this on Ask Ubuntu was the realization that there were so many instances of anomalous votes that we couldn't keep up with reports manually and needed to sorta establish a baseline expectation for what was kosher (and... clear out a huge backlog of reports)
This is also the case on Stack Overflow at present
6:41 PM
@Shog9 is this purely based on the last experiment or adapted based on SO or in anyway in response to a certain member of the community that has been raising attention to potential fraud?
@rene I will likely contact those who have an unreasonably huge amount of reputation adjusted.
@JonClements it's adapted based on an additional year of experience handling these reports.
...it may be motivated by getting snowed under by an increased volume of reports though
And it should have nothing to do with the sudden increase in about 300% of our backlog of tickets from mods, no... ;P
Yeah... those guys are a right pain...
Can users act preemptively by analyzing their votes? Isn't most of the stir caused by the unexpected/unanticipated nature of it?
@rene most of the stir tends to be caused by folks not realizing there's anything untoward about their voting
Which... Is kinda the best reason to do such an audit.
6:43 PM
you should have the script check, user cv:ed delv:ed or left comment and then got 1-2 dv within 4 hours from that user, that would clean up some nasty stuff for people trying to moderate
We've been handling a lot of these sorts of reports manually for ages and it's super painful and arbitrary. Getting a good automated system vetted would be amazing.
Since SO is fairly emotional at the moment with the sunset of docs, the introduction of dag etc... etc... (the new button etc...)
Will there be advance notice this is going to happen and what people can expect?
The other thing we're discussing is giving folks a heads-up in real time if they're, say, voting for the same person frequently. That'll take a bit longer to spin up though.
(that was certainly a failing point of the AU experiment...)
@Shog9 I've repeatedly seen people be "surprised" that voting up a collection of posts by the same person (even if it's not themselves) is bad... I know that some people just want a way to say "thanks" or they find one answer by someone really helpful and start going through that user's "greatest hits"...
6:45 PM
Mod note! OK, folks - that’s 15 minutes. While you can feel free to keep asking questions about this vote fraud stuff, and we'll work on answering them, we’d like to shift the general topic over to the Town Hall Chats themselves. Are these useful to you? Do you wish they were less frequent? Longer? Shorter? Should we keep doing them at all?
@JonClements meh, let's just run it and enjoy the popcorn...
@Catija think about how you behave on Facebook. Would you be shocked if someone said it was bad to be "liking" posts from your friends or family?
i've got my own theory but we want to hear from y'all ;)
@rene we could take bets on most rep amount lost
That's a quick 15 minutes...
6:46 PM
@Andy awesome!
How do you find out about the town halls? Should we advertise them other places? (And yes, I realize this is kinda exactly the wrong audience to ask that to, but... I'm here right now.)
@Shog9 Of course. I'm not saying that it should be acceptable to do it... I'm saying that it's understandable why people think it's OK... but I don't know that there's any material anywhere telling people not to do this.
@Catija it's in the help center, but no one reads that. (within some margin of error)
@hairboat I like this format. and yes, they are useful
6:47 PM
@rene WHY?
@Shog9 Wouldn't that make it easy to go under the radar?
I honestly would like Town Hall to continue, but without an announcement of the next topic, it's hard to consider whether to join or not...
@Pops I know they occur. Remembering when they occur is an issue. I usually find out about an hour ahead of time when a.) I was smart and reserved a spot at some point and chat announces it or 2.) Some kind soul announces the town hall is coming up in another room
@NisargShah only if we warn folks at exactly the threshold at which we detect
which of course we wouldn't do
@Shog9 because you get some more background, insight, thoughts, reasoning that isn't always captured in a meta post
6:48 PM
@Shog9 You get more personal with SE and maybe you inspire us to contribute more
Also, don't know if it's due to the time or not, but it seems people are joining less now...
@Elias So announcing the topic early would be . . . good? ;-)
@Shog9 interesting. sounds like it'd be easier to show up routinely if they happened at the same time every week/month/whenever? currently we schedule them for different times/days/etc to give people with different time zones and work schedules a shot at attending
but there are drawbacks to that approach too obviously
In a sense, that already happens: the daily scripts give folks a visible indicator when their votes are invalidated, so they learn to avoid it (or in some cases, stop doing it - it's this latter behavior that a quicker warning would hopefully encourage)
@Shog9 I think there shouldn't be an issue in SO, given the flux of posts it gets. But this might be an issue in smaller sites/tags
6:49 PM
Why not make a Meta post and make it [featured]? I honestly would have no idea beyond that
@Machavity so... This was supposed to appear in the bulletin on MSE.
Apparently, that logic is busted.
@Shog9 But you could create an auto alert that catches multiple votes in a short period of time for the same user... say three upvotes for the same user in less than an hour creates a pop-up that says "hey, we've noticed you're voting for this user's posts a lot, please note [insert guidance].
Go fig.
@Shog9 Fixed in 6-8 weeks, eh?
@Catija right. Or even 3 votes -> user in a day. That's actually quite unusual.
@Machavity yeah, something like that
6:51 PM
@Elias announcing early only makes sense if you would have to read-up on stuff. So for the voting fraud topic I now had to skim the AU post. But on most other topics I didn't mind the topic being unknown up front.
@Shog9 Sure... whatever metric you want... the point is that, for the people who do it, you've given them a heads-up that doesn't require reading the help pages.
or with better copy but same idea
throw in a comma and it looks good to me
i definitely like the aspect we've hit on here of selecting the topic after scheduling the chat. in previous iterations trying to reverse those steps has led to a lot of canceling chats because we felt like we had nothing to Talk About
but... there's always something
Exactly. And then when they act surprised that their votes are invalidated for this reason, you can use your wayback machine and say "you saw the alert for this on X day at X time and clicked the accept button, so you were informed".
6:52 PM
However in low traffic tags the voting scripts are an issue as I interpret it, I often do not vote on great answers since I already know I up voted 5 other answer on same user, hence I don't want any auto mod flag to be rasied..
that said, there might be a happy medium. schedule the chat a week in advance, pick the topic a day in advance... something like that
@rene fair point. It's just, in my opinion, announcing the topic beforehand can help people to consider joining the Town Hall to participate, or just reading the transcript, if it's not "too interesting" for them.
@hairboat call it a most likely topic
@PetterFriberg see, there's another unintended consequence.
Topic subject to change based on the whims of the Shog
6:53 PM
that will work
We get into trouble with too much secrecy in this regard, because folks have to guess at how it works and... Guess wrong.
Yeah I often think, heck the answer is good I should upvote, but then I go meeh, mods will send me mail soon... In my tag there are 3 users that answers... 3 questions per day... now for 10-20 days I can indicate good answers... the rest no.
Does the script automatically exclude my upvotes on Jon Skeet's answers?
@Shog9 This is a great option
[5-minute warning!]
6:55 PM
@hairboat Where are they announced?
@jcolebrand right here in my spiel at the top of the show
so far at least
I dream of whirled peas.
we've never gotten so far as figuring it out >10 minutes before we start before ;)
I tend to vote good content whenever I see it. In some sites, that means voting the same users over and over. I haven't gotten in trouble yet, but if I do, I have my conscience clean
6:56 PM
@Lamak Or bad... you know... because some people are simply regularly poor contributors and downvotes are just as valuable.
(note to self: investigate the heck out of Lamak)
Truth of the matter is, none of us vote as much as we should
@Shog9 dammit
The most telling indicator of problematic behavior isn't "X voted Y times for Z" - it's "X never voted for anyone but Z"
@Shog9 I'd star that, but it's already got two stars, which is enough.
But that's... At 1 vote, that's meaningless too
6:58 PM
@Shog9 totally deserves it
@Catija doesn't happen often in the sites/tags I frequent
@Lamak Come visit me on my site. :D
@Shog9 Sounds like an XYZ problem
@hairboat heh, my bad
@jcolebrand you'd be forgiven for assuming they got announced somewhere you couldn't find... that does sound like us ;)
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