Tavern on the Meta

9:27 PM

Implement this and you will boost documentation (+ keep meta crowd at bay for awhile), With this we can feel it's an actual use, remember we are still Q/A folks, concentrated on Q/A, let us start to feel the use of creating good documentation (examples).

Travis J

@PetterFriberg - I don't agree with closing SO questions as docs example duplicates. That defeats the purpose of citing them in answers.

Petter Friberg

@TravisJ I answer it low-traffic tag so can pretty much form the documentation as I would like, the problem is that currently I can't see how to create useful content, I had first idea (setup some basic stuff, often used)... bla people have specific question and don't like to read doc (if they did they would not be asking), second sprint (setup stuff that is useful for Q/A, example datasource etc), meeh not correct use of documentation. Now where do I put my effort?

Passing answer to actual problem or re-structuring already existing document in hope that someone reads it

In the end I think that we need to see some use in our daily operation

It needs to be useful when you pass a comment to a confused OP

It needs to be useful when you answer, link to docs (for more info)

It would be really useful to close question that has documention

Travis J

I can agree with some of that, but a Docs Example should not be in lieu of an actual answer.

Petter Friberg

Many question are so confused and so basic, maybe it's just my feeling (or maybe that's why SE start docs) but these questions are messing up the current Q/A

ok lets make a new knowledge base in doc a cleaner one...

but if you like me to put in effort, let me start using it in daily operations, let me feel the use

You have confusion about arrays, go and read the docs I made on arrays (no I did not edit that thanks god)

Travis J

When you say "confused and basic" it makes me think that these users are simply not finding the content they should be when asking. The "your question exists" issue should be solved in a much more thorough manner.

That doesn't really overlap much with Docs though, unless related documentation could also show up in the your question may already have an answer section.

We also clearly have different definitions of effort. I would rather help a user through a problem than shut the door on them, even if that means letting some rather basic questions in.

Petter Friberg

9:44 PM

This is not about basic question (even if probably at least 90% of all questions have tons of dupe now), it's about OP's confusion and I think to programmers that put in effort trying to understand have little use of this (it's not making internet a better place, it's just returning bad result when we search)

OP's confusion can in many cases be solved with a few comments...

Now what do we like to do with this question

Travis J

Docs isn't intended to solve confusion. That is what questions are for. Docs is supposed to provide a launching pad. Here is what this stuff is, and how to use it. Get stuck? Ask a question!

Petter Friberg

hence I could create docs, to help me lead OP in direction... if this works, the logical solution would be to write "Solved by this documention"

Travis J

Place it in an answer. If the OP accepts, that is indication that your solution solved their problem.

Petter Friberg

I'm not sure I agree, docs is created to test new solutions, since we can't touch Q/A

Travis J

While manipulating the core configuration of Q&A is risky, that does not mean that Docs was created as an alternative to answers, as a sort of Q&D.

Petter Friberg

9:48 PM

The good answer in these cases are often too broad

Travis J

More broad than 30,000 characters?

Petter Friberg

Too broad for me to put effort (1h) into structure a good answer to a confused OP, I prefer flagging NAA

Travis J

I feel like answers which require a decent amount of effort are being overlooked because users want more bite sized, one liner, quick quip style of answers as they are easier and take less time. #FastestGunInTheWest However, that doesn't mean that the more difficult answer shouldn't be provided.

Why close a question when it could be answered by someone willing to put in an hours work?

Petter Friberg

Because it mess up the Q/A?, it creates 1000 of duplicated answer that you can't find... it creates suggestions on weakly defined problems ecc

Travis J

It does not mess up Q&A to have answers that required an hours worth of work. If I am looking for a similar problem that I am having, I want a well covered answer, not a quip or a one liner. As for duplication, that is rather tangential isn't it? If it is a dupe, then that is a different story. You had only mentioned too broad and that is the topic at hand. Also, just because a problem requires an in depth answer does mean it is weakly defined.

Petter Friberg

9:53 PM

and actually I think there are very few people to put in hours of work for these kind of questions, that will be submerged with other ****

Travis J

That is a dangerous assumption.

Petter Friberg

Maybe you and me see two different SO, in my tag at least 5 out 1 questions are weakly defined. I start SO by checking java but quickly realized that it's 1 dupe after the other.

My intention is to pass on the idea, ok I put some hours in to creating some examples (doc), that can be useful (having my experience on what people ask in my tag, what they are confused about etc), but then at least let me use them.

Travis J

In my opinion it is not user failure that produces duplicate questions 100% of the time so much as it is they do not locate a duplicate due to it not being present in the suggested existing questions.

You can use them in answers though, why is that an issue?

Why would closure be better than explaining in an answer why the example answers the question and then linking to it?

Petter Friberg

same reasons as closing a question dupe to another dupe.

THe solution is here--->

Travis J

Then answer one, and close the others as a dupe of the one you answered.

user315433

10:02 PM

!!/report academia.stackexchange.com/a/89695

Petter Friberg

So your solution is answer one with a link to docs, close the other as duplicate...

My solution would be close since this is document here.

The difference is simply, that we would not need to argue if it's an exact same problem, instead we would need to argue if the documentation we done cover the use case of the question

Travis J

The reason why it is nice to have an answer is that it will explain why the example is the solution, instead of just throwing up a link with a "trust me" banner.

(to note: I do like the ability to edit in links to the dupe banner)

Petter Friberg

I just think that your use case is not working, community users are not following this logic.

Travis J

Perhaps the dupe banner can include links to documentation examples in the link targets

Petter Friberg

I think maybe you can get people to invest in docs, if they could use it solve questions that are documented.

Travis J

10:07 PM

@PetterFriberg - How could they, the guidance is still far lagging behind setting up the actual ability to properly organize content. Perhaps you can persuade community users to follow that path :)

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Are citations in abstracts considered bad style? by cARLOS on academia.SE

Petter Friberg

You get me wrong, I'm not trying to fix the Q/A, I'm trying to get people to organize and invest in docs

Travis J

Using docs citation in answers was a core feature, trying to get people to use that aspect of docs would bridge the gap you are examining.

Petter Friberg

Many "power-user" stay away from docs, because of the rep gaming system

Travis J

I think they adequately fixed the rep gaming in docs.

If you look at Shog's statistics, they are now in line with reputation gain expectations given the amount of effort required for contribution.

There are probably several users who got a very nice free ride from Java Arrays, but then again, that was bound to happen (and did happen with certain very simple SO posts during inception). However, getting that easy of a ride right now is not exactly possible from my observations.

Petter Friberg

10:11 PM

Yeah probably, but still docs smell since this, you need to get'em back on your side if you if you really like to evolve docs

Travis J

It is true that it created a negative perception to have that many users rep capping daily for a while from such a small amount of contribution.

Petter Friberg

and to me you need go give a stronger feature in the normal Q/A then just a link

Travis J

Like a one box?

Petter Friberg

I still think that closing is the best feature, if question is covered by a topic in docs, close it, bring traffic to the doc

when you get traffic to doc, you get people to invest (I still have hopes that people does this not for rep but to make a better internet)

Travis J

So basically you want the inverse of this to happen

64

Q: What if documentation took its content from Stack Overflow Q&A?

When I need to look up a concept, I don't go to the official documentation or to Stack Overflow Documentation. I go to a Stack Overflow Q&A. This is a radical change, but I'll toss it out there. What if Documentation was just a documentation style organization to Stack Overflow Q&A content? For...

You want SO Q&A to take content from Docs.

Petter Friberg

10:15 PM

I want to invest in this

58

A: Will there be a close reason for "Covered in Docs"?

Well, that'd be... Really nice, wouldn't it? Pick an example that does exactly what the asker's asking how to do, close, done. Truth is, it's a bit premature to tell if that's a good idea or not. Nice thing is, we're tracking links to docs from answers, so we'll be able to get some reasonable es...

Travis J

Full circle.

Petter Friberg

and yeah probably you create another canonical from scratch

but that is easy to search and well organized

Travis J

a ha, that last part

that, in my opinion, is what docs needs

the ability to be the canonical source, easy to search, and well organized

Petter Friberg

ok, but then you need to drive traffic... (according to me lets drive poorly researched question towards it)

Travis J

I don't think traffic needs to come from SO though. It needs to come from google.

Petter Friberg

10:19 PM

also that type of OP is the one benefiting the most.... they learn also how to read docs :D:

Travis J

Google is the primary traffic provider.

Petter Friberg

Google will arrive when people find it useful.... (of course you by ads, but I think we will exceed budget)

Travis J

<traffic>
 <search>
  <provider type="primary" location="Google" />
 </search>
</traffic>

All it has to do is meet strong google search criteria

For example, the link that Jon provides in his post today about Java tweeting and linking to SO's Java Arrays example... priceless as far as google search rank goes.

Petter Friberg

I can't research my question -> Ask Question --> get insulted, get closed as unclear

Travis J

The more legitimate outside sources link to so docs, the stronger it will be in its ability to generate traffic.

Petter Friberg

10:22 PM

I can't research my question -> Ask Question --> Get directed to documentation

Travis J

I already spoke about the issue during the Ask Question phase. Getting insulted is the worst problem out of the entire set of issues you highlight there.

Better not insult anyone or else this drunk Irish (Scottish?) guy that @Gerry linked to will publicly shame you on youtube.

Petter Friberg

I try to catch'em also... (but this is a bit off-topic)... anyway bed time, thanks for input.

Travis J

o/

Shog9

11:47 PM

Trivia: on Stack Overflow since April 22nd, 481 edits have been approved by the owner of the post they were applied to after being rejected by review; 160 have been rejected by the post owner after being approved. Moderators have override-approved 1 edit and rejected 3.

user315433

Hm. And 481 come from the much smaller group of rejected suggestions.

user315433

What would be those in percentage terms? % of approvals overridden, and % of rejections overridden?

user315433

Then again, an override does not mean the reviewers were wrong. It could indeed be the sort of an edit that is okay only if the OP says so.

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