Tavern on the Meta

12:02 AM

hmm

search.slashdot.org/story/17/05/17/1920238/… That should be interesting...

user315433

12:24 AM

@JourneymanGeek That's one of the few things that Site Analytics privilege gives that quantcast doesn't: the percentage of direct traffic, not going through a search engine or a link from elsewhere.

user315433

But even site analytics doesn't drill down to what % of mobile traffic is direct.

user315433

It's only direct mobile traffic than an app can hope to capture; and that's a small fraction of the whole.

user315433

!!/report ell.stackexchange.com/a/129745

user315433

The app announcement has been un-featured, so it's unlikely to beat the record for the most downvoted MSO post.

Journeyman Geek

.... Ow

SmokeDetector

12:33 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Foreigner friend or foreign friend? by TG SF on ell.SE

user315433

es.SO got two new pro-tem mods just a month before their first election. That's probably going to be a short mod gig for them...

Journeyman Geek

lol

user315433

12:48 AM

A confusing, and possibly unique thing to es.SO is that Konamiman got hired while a pro tem mod. He wasn't elected, so I suppose his mod role is meant to end with the first election... I assume he will keep the diamond, but just as an employee.

user315433

Or maybe he'll run in the election to confuse things further.

user315433

New job ad: Developer Product Marketing Manager

user315433

Not sure how to parse the title. Is it "Developer Product" to be marketed? or "Developer Marketing" of a product?

user315433

Perhaps not coincidentally, Jon Chang became a "B2B Marketing Manager", formerly a "Product Marketing Manager".

ɥʇǝS

1:08 AM

@Gerry you spend a crazy amount of time looking at random things on SE most people don't ever think about :P

user315433

Stack Overflow. It's WAR.

►

user315433

Lovely accent.

user315433

1:24 AM

The target of the diatribe didn't actually close the question... the question is still there, with that comment and without an answer. The lesson is: don't comment, just downvote.

user202362

ever since the tuna incident, you have been paying attention to people's accents, I wonder why ...

Journeyman Geek

@ɥʇǝS I find this useful

user315433

@ɥʇǝS Either that, or I have several scripts tracking changes around SE.

Journeyman Geek

@Gerry afaik other than CMs, most elected mods who get hired don't quit being mods

user202362

although some of them just become inactive and disappear

user315433

1:36 AM

@JourneymanGeek Yes, which is why I emphasized that he wasn't elected. I don't remember a pro tem mod ever being hired by S*.

Journeyman Geek

Hm. Happens to non SE employees too

@Gerry ah

user315433

Hm, maybe Jon at Hermeneutics?

ɥʇǝS

@JourneymanGeek I didn't say it wasn't useful.

user315433

That's right, Jon was a pro tem mod there but he more or less explicitly resigned when hired as a CM.

Journeyman Geek

Ah.

In theory one could also decline to stand.

I did that on sr

But yeah as I understand devs and sre can be mods. Don't think that's the case for CMs

Anyway not something I need to worry about for a while I guess?

user202362

1:50 AM

I think I should spend more time outside, I love the great outdoors. But my skin has been damaged too much in the past 3 years from spending too much time in the sun. Nowadays I hide inside like a heliophobic cavewoman. But if I spend too much indoors, I suspect that I might become mentally diseased. Hard life ...

Journeyman Geek

2:15 AM

@Telkitty you need a ginormous floppy hat

Elephant

SE app was updated to fix HNQ widget. Humanity restored?

Elephant

2:27 AM

Okay.. from now on, I wish I can just forget this S* app controversy and just hope for the best of the devs to deliver whatever they can.

user202362

@JourneymanGeek that's a very good idea, unfortunately I didn't like wearing hats.

Journeyman Geek

@Elephant on android?

Elephant

@JourneymanGeek yeah, but should apply to iOS too

SO app got "day 2" update, but the displayed version isn't increased :(

Journeyman Geek

2:45 AM

IOS has some degree of consistant support

Journeyman Geek

3:23 AM

hm. 0 requests for assistance today ._.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, bad pattern in URL body, blacklisted website in body, pattern-matching website in body: For a way to Enhance breast size zyntix by benas.boci on graphicdesign.SE

SmokeDetector

3:47 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Chinese character in title, messaging number in body: 郑州劳保用品发票osiosiming by 郑州办公用品发票 on anime.SE

user315433

@Elephant So much passion in comments there... after all it's S* company money to spend as they see fit, be it on apps, stickers, or avocado toasts.

user315433

Not being taken for idiots in the announcement would be nice, but then again - if we spend hours as unpaid janitors, we kind of had it coming...

Elephant

An SE-branded avocado toast is fine too

user315433

No!!! It has to have that sweet Stack Overflow name. Not SE.

Elephant

Ugh, make it two toasts then...

SmokeDetector

4:01 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, potentially bad keyword in body, potentially bad keyword in title: mp3songsclub.com/aye-meri-jaan-sunn-altaaf-sayyed-mp3-song-download/ by Neusodds on meta.SE

user315433

@SmokeDetector What's with weasel words, Smokey? "Potentially bad"?

Elephant

Anyway, can someone explain this MSE post? What did the OP want?

user315433

An MSE post with no answers or comments? It's a miracle. Needs one more downvote for roomba.

Elephant

Oh, I guess it's not repro, since the linked MSE post is now status-complete

user315433

(A much easier solution than trying to understand the post.)

user315433

4:11 AM

Actually, it's already roomba-eligible at 0 score, being really old with no comments and low views.

Elephant

Yeah, Roomba Forecaster says so

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer, username similar to website in answer: Why does Android keep APK files of installed apps? by ApkandPlay on android.SE

Shadow Wizard

6:16 AM

@TravisJ that will do, yeah!

@Elephant some change to the search algorithm.

rubbing eyes

pinching self

Kasra fixed two bugs!

In case I'm not dreaming, it's only 406 more bugs to go.... ;)

(iOS app got half than that, which are 200 more than what I expected to find)

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard I suppose the response to the SO app got things moving upstairs

Shadow Wizard

6:32 AM

@JourneymanGeek what response?

Journeyman Geek

all zee downvotes?

SmokeDetector

6:55 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: Which herbal teas have been proven to energize? by DT Sai Mahima on health.SE

Elephant

@JourneymanGeek yep if there isn't a sizable market for the app we might add Web Push Notifications support to Android, or get something close to a PWA, as we double down on mobile web. — Kasra Rahjerdi ♦ yesterday

This is going nowhere. Currently people use the mobile app mainly because of notification. However, the devs are considering to add web notification, if the apps don't do well. Considering the inferiority of the app compared to the mobile web, this is like telling power users not to use the apps, or maybe even boycott it.

The only thing that they can (or, must) do is to update/improve the apps either way, even if they're unsuccessful, until it's par/surpass the mobile web!

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in answer, username similar to website in answer: Green Tea: Would it cause any harm? by DT Sai Mahima on health.SE

Journeyman Geek

@Elephant thing is, that 100+ DVs on MSO is probably a bigger motivator than little ol me complaining about mobile app.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: Does milk tea causes skin dark? by DT Sai Mahima on health.SE

Elephant

!!/addblu health.stackexchange.com/u/9261

Journeyman Geek

7:08 AM

@Elephant funny thing is I don't use the mobile website at all except on a sidebar for chat (very bossmode). Desktop works fine on 1080p 5.5 inch phones and I need those tools to do moddy things

on the other hand the android client fails to open stuff on chrome

Shadow Wizard

!!/allspam health.stackexchange.com/users/9261/dt-sai-mahima

@SmokeDetector k

Journeyman Geek

7:31 AM

this is quite funny. HR thinks our work-request reporting method is a waste of paper. Also, I think my boss is chasing my senior to keep track the same way I am. I think its hilariously inefficient

Shadow Wizard

7:41 AM

@JourneymanGeek what is work-request reporting method?

Journeyman Geek

paper form. Full page.

Shadow Wizard

Also not sure I follow "boss is chasing my senior"? What you mean?

Journeyman Geek

I'm being an arse and doing it for as minor a thing as no one cpmplains about

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek but what you write on that paper?

Journeyman Geek

The old IT guy's in facilities. And we're the same department

Time, description of request, what we did

think, prehistoric tracking system

Shadow Wizard

7:43 AM

You mean you report what you do by writing on a paper? But where that paper goes? Is is stored in archive?

Journeyman Geek

it scanned and emailed at the end of the day

then filed

Shadow Wizard

I admit this can be good, these days any computer can be hacked and locked.

Having backup of actual paper can save companies.

Journeyman Geek

"helped user log into email account. Total time, 5 minutes"

Almost... "Helped install printer cart"

HR was like "nuuuu its a waste of paper. You took 30 seconds"

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek sounds reasonable

Journeyman Geek

and I was like "ah, ok, whatever"

Its dumb ;p

Also most IT stuff's walk in, 0 expense outside time

apparently its to justify hiring us

Shadow Wizard

7:48 AM

You mean the big boss said "hire some IT guys", without ever giving any real purpose?

Derpy

@ShadowWizard that is what you get when you develop software and hardware on the assumption that people will behave like a candy colored pony and then your products get used by the real world equivalent of ff6 Kefka...

Shadow Wizard

@Derpy hehe, true. Or by 11 y/o kids.

Derpy

8:09 AM

@ShadowWizard the kid in the article was actually trying to help by stating that the toy could be misused. He was just point out that once again that "Homo homini lupus"

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard .... Plausible

rene

10:28 AM

Easy going today so we can have a great Friday?

Journeyman Geek

Its thursday

rene

Yes, I know. We take the day off so we can burst out in energy tomorrow ...

Thanks for letting me know I'm hard to follow.

> but that's a fight for another day.

Can't wait for that fight ^ to start

Journeyman Geek

So, I find people are following me around correcting my its to it's ...

I donno whether to be flattered, embarrassed or annoyed

rene

@JourneymanGeek above all its annoying to make that kind of mistakes

Journeyman Geek

10:45 AM

yup

falls over

rene

job done

Journeyman Geek

naw, just really tired

moved tables.

then turns out they messed up

moved them back

rene

lol

Journeyman Geek

I'm the IT guy. Not entirely sure how that fell under my job description

rene

Nobody knows what IT really means. So every task that can't be clearly categorized is assigned to IT. They fix things

Journeyman Geek

10:51 AM

I guess I've worked under a few reasonably well organised IT departments

this is not one

actually, I am the IT department

rene

Do you have a screwdriver?

Journeyman Geek

I have my own

rene

There you are! You go fix things!

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek so make this one well organized as well! :)

It's all on your shoulders...

@JourneymanGeek It ' s

@JourneymanGeek really? Who?? :D

rene

@ShadowWizard Are you blaming @JourneymanGeek for not being well organized? If you're on your own you can set your own standards. The current state of affairs is fine. Tomorrow it will be even more fine ...

Shadow Wizard

11:02 AM

Anyone can tell what is this avatar?

Rodrigo, Santiago, Chile

3.2k 3 21 40

@rene he complains the company does not have organized IT department. But he is the IT department. Hence, he is not organized. ;)

rene

that is your logic

I'm trying to make him not feel more miserable but thanks for screwing that

@ShadowWizard it is a failed selfie by someone with very short arms

Shadow Wizard

@rene omg

but so blurred... almost like it's censored version of something

rene

just a pixelated face

Maybe a minecraft fan

Shadow Wizard

@hichris123 in case you miss it: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/296139/…

Personally I'm quite neutral about it, on one hand new users simply won't understand what's "Programmers" when reading old posts, on the other hand, that was the name back then, we can't rewrite history.

user315433

11:24 AM

@Elephant But the logic appears to be (1) current rate of app adoption is not sufficient to justify development => (2) must increase adoption by whatever marketing tricks => (3) if that doesn't work, stop the development.

user315433

Might as well skip to step (3).

Shadow Wizard

(4) Improve mobile theme instead

bjb568

There should be some easy going this Thursday.

Last days for seniors, so it should be fun.

I'm going to adventure out into the woods next to my school.

user202362

let us know your lat & lon, in case we don't hear from you in a month's time, we will call your local police

bjb568

NaH, kitteh will protect frens, we'll do fine.

Elephant

11:34 AM

It's dangerous to go alone!

user315433

But... Call of the Wild

user315433

How come Jack London never wrote about cats? So unfair.

Shadow Wizard

@bjb568 beware of the bears.

@Gerry cats are not wild

@Elephant not if you're an elephant, no animal will dare harming you.... ;)

Elephant

@ShadowWizard except human :(

user315433

Stack Overflow em Português graduated two years ago today. Fun fact: their most-viewed post-graduation question is downvoted to -4 and closed. Como corrigir o erro 403 Forbidden?

user315433

11:40 AM

Guess what this really shows is there's a market for pt.SU

Shadow Wizard

@Elephant humans are not animals! ;)

user315433

!!/report health.stackexchange.com/a/12344

user315433

!!/report health.stackexchange.com/questions/12320/… health.stackexchange.com/questions/1524/… health.stackexchange.com/questions/1863/…

user315433

Is it really too late to shut down that site?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Migrating Dungeon Monsters / Why do monsters not leave the dungeons? by Jon on worldbuilding.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Brushing teeth before or after breakfast by White Bright Family Dental on health.SE

user202362

11:55 AM

@ShadowWizard so what are humans?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer (batch report: post 1 out of 3): Can dental abscess cause acne? by White Bright Family Dental on health.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer (batch report: post 2 out of 3): Is dental floss really effective? According to studies, it is not by White Bright Family Dental on health.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer (batch report: post 3 out of 3): Dental cleaning and Bleeding by White Bright Family Dental on health.SE

Shadow Wizard

@Telkitty superior beings

user202362

in what ways?

Shadow Wizard

@Gerry its edit queue is full for few days now. Sign of total lack of moderation of any kind.

nobody there is even reviewing.

bjb568

If humans aren't animals, we are surely inferior beings.

Shadow Wizard

11:59 AM

We eat animals, hence animals lost the battle and are inferior.

Otherwise they would have eaten us.

user202362

oh, we are ... by bacterias and viruses ... eventually, if we don't get eaten by other creatures first

Shadow Wizard

Back to Health.SE, the fact such questions (NSFW!!!) are not even downvoted, is sign of... well, the site is really dead. /cc @Gerry

user202362

user202362

doesn't look very predatory to me

Shadow Wizard

@Telkitty humans don't need their teeth to be predators, that's primitive.

user202362

12:04 PM

also ants farm aphids, so humans are not the first

bjb568

Decomposers are at the highest trophic level.

Shadow Wizard

Humans are the only specie to use weapons...

bjb568

Fungi reign supreme.

user202362

that's because we have herbivore teeth and no claws

user202362

And if you think the development of nuclear bomb is a proof of intelligence, I would like to beg to differ. It must be really smart to find a way to destroy the only planet we have before be able to devising any escape from it

Shadow Wizard

12:10 PM

@Telkitty nah, it requires lots of nukes to really destroy the planet itself. Black hole will be much more efficient. ;)

Journeyman Geek

@Gerry lol.

Derpy

@ShadowWizard because your definition of "destroy a planet" is Dragonball like, with the planet exploding in a flash of lights. Killing life of with radioactive poisoning is much more subtle.

Shadow Wizard

@Derpy pretty sure roaches, ants, flies, and many more, will survive nuclear war.

And it can't possibly span the whole planet, there are huge unpopulated areas.

Black hole, developed in laboratory, can consume Earth from within. ;)

rene

@ShadowWizard and Wall.E

Derpy

@rene and Bubblegum too.

rene

12:26 PM

We can chew on that ...

Shadow Wizard

@rene he won't survive direct hit ;)

But how in the world you remembered WALL-E? LOL

rene

12:40 PM

@ShadowWizard well, yes. Strangely enough colleagues of mine ask the same thing when I refer to Pixar movies. Let me say that I like that studio.

Shadow Wizard

:)

Jason C

@ShadowWizard Lol, right?

Shadow Wizard

@JasonC right!

Jason C

Right!

Shadow Wizard

@rene so you watched all their movies?

Jason C

12:49 PM

How many toy stories are there. Aren't they up to like, 12 or something lol

rene

@ShadowWizard I think so, yes

Shadow Wizard

@rene whoa... nice!

Jason C

It's so nice out today

Shadow Wizard

So what are you doing inside?

Derpy

@JasonC "The land before time" series has 14 movies....

Jason C

12:53 PM

Holy crap, really?

I remember the first few I had no idea they kept it on life support for so long

@ShadowWizard I'm not inside I'm on my front stoop with my phone

Elephant

I did want to ask something on Health.SE, but since it's personal medical advice...

Jason C

On this day in history, Mt St Helens erupted in 1980, and Shrek was released in 2001.

The more you know!

Also Abe Lincoln was nominated for president.

And pope John Paul II was born

Elephant

May 18

May 18 is the 138th day of the year (139th in leap years) in the Gregorian calendar. There are 227 days remaining until the end of the year. This date is slightly more likely to fall on a Monday, Wednesday or Friday (58 in 400 years each) than on Saturday or Sunday (57), and slightly less likely to occur on a Tuesday or Thursday (56). == Events == 332 – Constantine the Great announced free distributions of food to the citizens in Constantinople. 872 – Louis II of Italy is crowned for the second time as Roman Emperor at Rome, at the age of 47. His first coronation was 28 years earlier, in ...

Jason C

I get the history channel daily emails it's kinda fun.

Shadow Wizard

@JasonC oh, careful not to fall then.... ;)

user315433

1:04 PM

Mt St Helens erupted, releasing Shrek.

Shadow Wizard

@Elephant no worry, we won't tell.

Jason C

@Gerry lol

@ShadowWizard I talked to him recently. Turns out there were drugs involved.

Shadow Wizard

whoa

That's nasty.

user315433

Can't be a coincidence, the p value is 1/365, less than 0.3%

Shadow Wizard

So guess he can't really sew the insurance, even if he got one. That's totally his fault.

Jason C

1:06 PM

@ShadowWizard Yeah ketamine, it's been a huge problem for us in party scenes around here for about 8 years now I was sad to see he was on that wagon too.

Shadow Wizard

:(

And did this at least made him stop?

Jason C

That drug. Ugh. It's caused so many problems in festival and event production for me too.

Hopefully. I think he learned a lesson.

Ketamine and ecstacy, are the two party drugs that I could really do without.

They both went on the rise in the last 10 years suddenly and haven't really settled down.

But at every event the majority of ems calls are ketamine related, and the majority of sexual assaults are ecstacy related. It's a huge issue.

Whatever. Freakin hippies.

Shadow Wizard

@JasonC why not just ban them all? By law?

Jason C

They are both highly illegal.

That doesn't stop anybody.

Shadow Wizard

@JasonC so the police should send policemen to parties, start arresting people. And giving big fines. Then people will get the point.

The fines will fund the police work.

Jason C

1:13 PM

Ehhhh that's super complicated. Too much to type on a phone.

Shadow Wizard

And when enough people will be sent to jail for using the drugs, others will think twice.

Jason C

Unfortunately it doesn't have that effect.

Shadow Wizard

@JasonC only because nobody important enough care enough to make it simple...

Jason C

The best solutions we come up with are to try to instill a sense of responsibility and "if you see something say something" attitude in the community.

No. Important people do care. It's just crazy complex dynamics. For example when a bunch of cops show up at a party, that doesn't teach other event holders a lesson about drugs. Instead it encourages more underground events and discourages things like calling the cops if a real problem occurs, out of fear.

Also it's impossible to control what attendees bring to festivals and stuff.

Elephant

^ that

I guess this is a global problem (or, at least in my home country too)

Shadow Wizard

1:17 PM

No need to control what people bring. Just search everyone, and arrest those with the drugs on them.

Jason C

That's a great way to make sure nobody wants to go to your festival, though. And the city doesn't have the resources to do that at every party. What we do for in city parties is just maintain a good rep with the cops. We tell them what we're doing, get appropriate permits, handle things internally, and use cops as a last resort. It's... More complicated than that. But I can't explain it.

Plus there's a lot of irresponsible producers. For example I went to a small, very illegal (I found out later) party on a boat once. Some kid on God knows what fell over a balcony about 8 feet and hit his head on the solid steel deck. He was unconscious, then woke up, bleeding out of his ears. And they weren't going to call the ambulance because they didn't want to get arrested. That's the kind of shit that happens.

I compromised, brought the kid outside myself, called 911 and told them I was just walking and found him wandering.

Then I went back in and almost punched the producer, lol.

Journeyman Geek

0_0

lol. Sounds just like chat moderation ;p

Jason C

But that's the atmosphere here with parties and cops and bad event producers. It's super not ideal.

Lol. It's very much like real life moderator.

Anyways the other thing is when cops start showing up at parties the reaction isn't "don't do drugs", it's "don't go to that guys parties any more". So, yeah.

Journeyman Geek

._.

Derpy

Apr 4 at 13:56, by Derpy

23 mins ago, by Derpy

in Sugarcube Corner, Feb 6 at 16:39, by Derpy

> If you can't be happy, at least try to make others more unhappy than you

Jason C

1:31 PM

Lol

Derpy

(planning on reusing the same original message every time that discussion is relevant again, so that the level of quote will grow each time)

if you cannot find happiness in empathy, then you won't care about others while you search happiness in chemicals.

Jason C

Thanks for detailing your plan, lol. Do you need somebody to sign off on it?

@Derpy pretty much my thoughts too

Derpy

@JasonC nope, but you could try to collaborate by switching to Grandpa's rants mode more often, so that I get more opportunities to post it :P

Jason C

Haha

I think I can manage that

Journeyman Geek

lol

Derpy

1:41 PM

@ShadowWizard Ok, after this line I can safely claim someone stole Shadow account. Original Shadow had fare less "humanity will understand" attitude.

Jason C

1:56 PM

heh

i've been rewatching steins;gatae, which is awesome, but it's kinda funny because it's packed full of 2009 memes.

also the mere fact that i consider 2009 era memes "old school" at this point makes me feel really old. that's not even that old school.

Derpy

the weird moment when you realize that your daily developer work is starting to look oddly similar to a Paranoia rpg game session...

user315433

2:42 PM

22

A: Has the top bar redesign met its goals?

Your questions align pretty well with the measurable primary and secondary goals for the redesign that I listed a few months back in, "How Stack Overflow Redesigned the Top Navigation" - so I'll mostly just stick to your list, with some additional stats thrown in where they help to clarify. Has ...

user315433

So, a win for Docs, a loss for review.

user315433

3:43 PM

Speaking of apps... The city bus system here has its own, with a trip planner. It somehow decided that I am more likely to want to go College Place, WA instead of College Place, a location right around here. And planned out a nice trip, three days long, mostly by train. Now I am tempted...

rene

> By all means lawyer up.

user315433

Especially because the trip is via Chicago.

user315433

Wilco - Via Chicago

►

rene

@Gerry Just hop on the bus ...

Jason C

@Gerry does the Transit app work in your city?

It is awesome in nyc. Real-time bus and train tracking too.

user315433

3:52 PM

No, not on the list of supported cities.

Jason C

Aw

Bart

@rene you like that one? ;)

rene

4:08 PM

yep :)

SmokeDetector

4:46 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer: How to recover deleted photos from Android's internal memory by LindseyThompson on android.SE

user315433

5:00 PM

!!/report ux.stackexchange.com/a/108140

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Place Ad after Title or Lead text? by Amas Dave on ux.SE

user315433

> I am not able to interpret x-rays, but I do know that fractures usually take 6-8 weeks to heal. health.stackexchange.com/a/12354

user315433

6-8 weeks... :(

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Place Ad after Title or Lead text? by Amas Dave on ux.SE

user315433

I think there is a conspiracy around stackexchange

M.A.R.

5:16 PM

@Gerry Hah, sure there is

Jason C

5:45 PM

@Gerry Lol, tpg2114 kind of gave the OP the smack down

user315433

6:09 PM

2

Q: Tearing Down the Structure of Documentation

If you have told us (or privately thought) Documentation isn't working: You are correct. It isn't. Yet. Since early on in the private beta of Documentation, we’ve used a simple, rigid structure: Tags => Topics => Examples + optional sections At the time, users wondered if this was the right s...

discussion featured documentation

user315433

How about a separate Documentation App?

M.A.R.

@Gerry Time to take a stand to make a new Docs app

Jason C

> We don’t know exactly where we are going ...

Easy: Nowhere

They really are holding on to docs for dear life

M.A.R.

@JasonC It's impossible to go nowhere

user315433

The activity in Docs is visibly up since the new new new nav was introduced.

M.A.R.

6:13 PM

Unless you mean be stationary

Or stationery. Stupid English words.

Jon Ericson

@JasonC Huh. I guess I wasn't clear enough that we were tossing out a big chunk of what we've developed so far. Maybe it's the misleading title. ;-)

user315433

Maybe "Savagely running through Documentation, shredding it to pieces, burning them and stomping on the ashes" would have been more clear?

Jon Ericson

"Take Documentation and sacrifice it on the altar of good-will" was my alternate title.

@Gerry We need an API for Docs first. (Thank goodness we didn't write one already.)

user315433

6:32 PM

Hm, the current version of public API (Q&A) was released February 10, 2014. Granted, it does most things that are needed, except newer features like flag/vote retraction.

user315433

I remember hearing that apps use something newer that hasn't been made public.

Jon Ericson

Huh. I'm not looped into the mobile stuff, but that would be a bit disappointing.

Jason C

@JonEricson I dunno. The way I read it it looks like you're mostly just adding some templates to serve as examples.

But it doesn't matter it's still the same flawed idea.

Jon Ericson

Jason C

One of the major flaws with docs is it doesn't fill any gaps.

Among other things.

Now if you can ask yourselves e.g. "How can we get the Mozilla folks to use so as a documentation platform instead of mdn" and come up with a good answer, you might be on to something.

Shog9

6:42 PM

@JasonC I know. Docs is easily the worst lifehack for patching nail holes

@JasonC MDN is awesome. "How can we get MDN-style documentation for all the other bits of software out there?" ...is a reasonable question.

user315433

I know some things that could use better/any documentation, like mathy SciPy methods. But if I was really in the mood to contribute, I'd do it in SciPy repo, not on SO.

Jason C

^ That.

Because that's another failing of docs, fundamentally it's not as closely associated with a piece of sw as the docs directly on its web site or repo. You'd also have to make docs more convenient than reading the bottom of the git hub page.

Anonymous

MDN isn't particularly great. It has decent coverage of APIs, but the descriptions are often less comprehensible than what's in the specs, and the examples and long-form explanations vary drastically in terms of quality, format, and structure.

Anonymous

(Not saying that Docs is better, just saying that I think MDN is widely overrated.)

Jason C

Not to mention docs in a repo are versioned and implicitly associated with the corresponding code.

Jon Ericson

6:49 PM

@JasonC So one of the problems with our existing tag silos is that there's no space for documenting mashups of two technologies. There's probably information about PHP and MySQL, but what about PHP and some obscure database that nobody much uses anymore. (For instance.)

This is something we heard in our user interviews.

Jason C

Then I'd contribute docs to the php module for that db.

But I know what you mean. But the problem is still not filling gaps, because I can search Google and find a blog about it already.

That's my whole thing with docs. I already have that info, in the same window that I'd view docs in. Just a different URL. It needs to add something that I can't get.

@JeremyBanks Well sure. It was just an example. MSDN, the PHP docs, oracles javadocs and tutorial trails, etc.

Anonymous

Sure, your point stands. As far as I know, MDN is the only other one of those which tries to be directly community-authored, though. (Certainly the PHP docs main value comes from the community-authored comments, but they're not optimized for it.)

Jason C

Maybe it's worth considering having some portions of docs not be as openly editable, to attract larger semi-public organizations to maintain documentation there and provide some sort of quality base. Somehow. Not as simple as that of course.

Anyways back to work, peace.

Shog9

7:06 PM

@JeremyBanks my baseline is '00s-era MSDN, AKA "who needs more than what's in the header file?"

Documentation - like most developer tools - is leaps and bounds better than it used to be across the board. Still room for improvement even in the best, but the biggest pain-points are not generally the best.

Adam Lear

@JasonC I expect that to be the biggest thing we hear from tech writers out there. Asking any company/team/OSS org/person/etc to shift official docs to SO when even the initial contrib has to be community-approved is basically a non-starter.

SmokeDetector

7:37 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in answer: Essays and thoughts on mathematics by user110099 on mathoverflow.net

user315433

Easy; replace Documentation pages with links to editable Google Documents. (Do they support codeblocks, hmm.)

user315433

Not directly, but there are add-ons. How can I get code syntax highlighting in Google Docs?

user315433

7:54 PM

> Stack Overflow has received general praise for its architecture of handling questions and answers as they are regulated by the community.[34] Its success has often been attributed to self-regulation. [citation needed]

user315433

Anyone has a citation for that? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_Overflow#Reception

user315433

[dubious-discuss]

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: criticism of down-voting for question? by Liu on skeptics.SE

user315433

@SmokeDetector Doesn't look red-flaggable to me. I flagged it as NAA long ago.

Travis J

8:13 PM

Maybe bring back teams, and then have certain docs only editable by the team.

user315433

Makes sense. Why should a project's lead developer have all their edits reviewed just because they don't often participate in SO otherwise.

Travis J

(I always liked teams)

user315433

What T-SQL documentation has helped you? by Vasudha Swaminthan = new PM of Documentation

Jon Ericson

@TravisJ This was an idea that occurred to me. Talking with software projects before the public launch, the #1 thing they asked was if they could have special access/immunity from edits. I suppose that's a possibility if community contributions turns out to be unworkable.

user315433

I dunno, I google for things when I need to do something with SEDE, and don't pay much attention to what site the results come from.

Travis J

8:21 PM

@JonEricson - I wouldn't call it unworkable, just perhaps limited in scope in certain places. This could also be an opportunity to brand areas of docs for some sort of price. A company buys a team, and then that team comes with its own docs area, publicly visible, privately editable. They could include a logo perhaps. Or perhaps they could determine through a small setting somewhere the nature of who gets to edit.

Perhaps this is tangential to the original goal though. I had a late start today.

Travis J

8:35 PM

@JonEricson - Am I missing something? I read the linked what T-SQL docs has helped question, and cannot for the life of me find any tsql docs in SO Docs.

Jon Ericson

@TravisJ stackoverflow.com/documentation/sql-server/topics

It's merged with SQL Server. (Yet another problem with Docs tags.)

Travis J

Is MS SQL considered T-SQL? Or is it a topic in there?

Jon Ericson

I'll be honest, I don't know the relationship. I think it's an offshoot Sybase SQL. At any rate, it's one way to talk to SQL Server.

Travis J

I cheat and use all generated SQL. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ah, okay I know Kung Fu. MS added onto the general query features of SQL in order to allow things like data structures, declarations, and such in order to give the language more coverage and make it turing complete. The expansion of proprietary ms features is known as tsql. To quote their official docs "All tools and applications that communicate with a SQL database do so by sending T-SQL commands." Anyway, this is mostly just rubber ducking, most of you already knew all this I assume.

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