Tavern on the Meta

Stijn

20:02

meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/jon-skeet

Maybe we should stop that user before it goes out of control

@Braiam is on it I see

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 how not? It's white and it's floating...

@Shog9 usage:

Shog9

@ShadowWizard it's also HUGE

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 where? On Talent?

Shog9

yeah

Shadow Wizard

Well, on SO it's going to be more cluttered, lots of tabs. No?

wait... the tabs will stay?

Shog9

20:16

@ShadowWizard I posted an image earlier, if you don't want to opt-in to see it yourself

3 hours ago, by Shog9

Braiam

@ShadowWizard that's an egg roll?

Shadow Wizard

brb bringing stuff for the baby

Braiam

O_O

Shog9

@ShadowWizard On a question ^

Braiam

yep, it would be more difficult to ignore the notifications... they are visible... all the time...

Shadow Wizard

20:28

@Shog9 oh. ~~Where's Jobs?~~ OK, saw the second screenshot

@Braiam nope. That's a Jachnun.

Jachnun

Jachnun or Jahnun (Hebrew pronunciation: [d͡ʒaχˈnun], Hebrew: גַ׳חְנוּן‎) is a Jewish and Israeli pastry served on Shabbat morning. == Preparation == Jachnun is left in a slow oven overnight. It is prepared from dough which is rolled out thinly, brushed with shortening (traditionally, clarified butter or samneh), and rolled up, similar to puff pastry. It turns a dark amber color and has a slightly sweet taste. It is traditionally served with a crushed/grated tomato dip, hard boiled eggs, and skhug (a type of hot sauce). The dough used for jachnun is the same as that used for malawach. == See... ==

Anyway, I have no issue with the colors, tabs, etc... only the whole bar being sticky and following me around. @Shog9

I just don't like those things for some reason, and judging from the 10000 or so feature requests on MSE to make the top bar floating/sticky so are the vast majority of SE users, or at least MSE users.

So I have to wonder why SE is adding a feature that most active users don't like.

I won't leave because of that, doubt anyone will, but it's just... well.. unpleasant.

Shog9

@ShadowWizard yeah, well, that's where things get interesting...

Obviously, taking the previous topbars and making them sticky isn't... Great.

The usual advantages of sticky nav are that... well, you have constant access to navigation

Which straight-up wasn't in the previous top bars

Nice for folks who like getting interrupted by inbox messages, annoying for everyone else

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 exactly.

Shog9

@ShadowWizard At the same time, we've been getting regular requests for "sticky nav" for... Years

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 which have all been downvoted to oblivion. (so 99% of them are deleted)

(except one asking to make it optional)

Shog9

And, yeah, they generally haven't been too well received, but then again they've mostly focused on making [current design at the time] sticky.

Which is a terrible way to do design

(there's a long conversation with Atwood on this topic around somewhere, but I can't seem to find it now)

So the idea here is to design the top-bar to be a generally useful thing to have on-screen

And... Then see how that actually works for folks in practice

Remember when we tried sticky voting a while back?

Hence the initial roll-out with A/B tests for folks who aren't powerusers

"cheese-moving" aside, can we make a design that actually takes advantage of being sticky?

Shadow Wizard

20:41

@Shog9 in chat? Or comments?

@Shog9 heh, yeah... and it was quickly aborted. sigh of relief

@Shog9 thing is, I don't see any reason to make anything sticky. Just add a small floating "Back to top" button like many sites have, and all is good.

(those who want to know instantly they got new notification can use the apps)

Shog9

@ShadowWizard I hate those. On desktop, I have a home button. On mobile, just use a hamburger menu like everyone else.

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 heh, we're on opposite sides then. :)

Shog9

@ShadowWizard yeah, so... Good thing I'm not in charge of this, eh?

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 I'm sure you'll consider adding the option to un-stick it in 6-8 weeks. wink

Shog9

(This is also why I like infinite scrolling on desktop and hate it on mobile)

@ShadowWizard unless the design has changed significantly in the past week, this is trivial to do with a userscript (or stylish)

Shadow Wizard

20:50

@Werner sorry, didn't find what I remembered on MSE. Either it's deleted, or my memory/search skills failed me.

@Shog9 yeah... but better have it official, not using a userscript that can get borked/forgotten.

@Jason 6% battery so early? You're not in a good stand... ;)

Shog9

@ShadowWizard why?

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 personally I've never used userscripts, though it might be just me. But seeing lots of bug reports on MSE ending up being result of forgotten userscripts, I'm happy I'm not using.

Shog9

@ShadowWizard Don't assume you wouldn't see a bunch of bug reports with a little-used option either

Look at Ars Technica: they had a perfect design back in like 2000: white text on a black background, single-column layout.

Shadow Wizard

Plus, userscript might be good work around when minority of the users want something. When the vast majority of the users want a feature, it's not feasible to tell them all "so install a userscript".

Stijn

:5747815 I'm surprised Chess.SE isn't closed yet. The SE model is not at all a good format for chess.

Shog9

21:04

Then they decided to introduce a terrible layout with a white background.

And, in admission of the fact that they were ruining the site, they allowed folks to opt into the former (good) design.

Guess what: it breaks every time they update anything

Or, sometimes, just randomly

And of course, if you're not logged in or lose cookies, it breaks.

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 bugs can be fixed... SE got good developers.

Shog9

@ShadowWizard sure. Still broken while you wait for that.

Shadow Wizard

Honestly I prefer a broken top bar than floating top bar. ;)

Shog9

Ars would have have been better off just picking a design that works well enough for everyone, and keeping the styling simple enough that folks who needed a different color scheme could still use it.

And that's what we should do as well.

Shadow Wizard

What happened to this Ars Technica eventually? (never heard that name before)

Andy

21:08

arstechnica.com

Shadow Wizard

heh... phpBB... arstechnica.com/civis

looks so.... 2000

Shog9

Yeah, their forums are... Pretty old

AFAIK, phpBB was actually an upgrade - for a long time, they were on proprietary software

Shadow Wizard

It's one of those things that will still work and look the same 100 years in the future.

But they don't have a floating top bar. @Shog

ThiefMaster

@Shog9 Nothing can be worse than phpBB ;)

Shog9

@ShadowWizard nor do they have Markdown

Shadow Wizard

21:11

@ThiefMaster really? vbulletin.

Shog9

sometimes progress is OK

ThiefMaster

@ShadowWizard i'd take a vB over a phpBB immediately.

Stijn

@ThiefMaster the power of phpBB was in its customisability

Shadow Wizard

@ThiefMaster really?? Well... I actually forgot about vbulletin forums just remember they're bad.

ThiefMaster

@Stijn Well if you consider "edit this file, search for x, add y" a proper way of customizing something...

Stijn

21:12

I didn't say it was user-friendly :)

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 of course, and I welcome the redesign of top bar and profile page. But sticking the top bar? It's not progress, IMHO.

Stijn

I learned PHP by installing mods

back when I was 14

Shog9

@ShadowWizard go opt in, use it for a bit, then tell me that

except, don't tell me that. Post it on meta, with a detailed rationale based on experience

otherwise, you're just arguing for your own prejudice

ThiefMaster

@Stijn heh, same for me. luckily discovered python later - never looked back

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 I might give it a try. But how can I explain the rationale behind "I just don't like it"?

Andy

21:22

Generally, people don't like when their cheese is moved.

It's about as helpful as "it doesn't work".

Explaining why you don't like it - what is messes up in your work flow, why the button here instead of there is bad (or good) - is more helpful

Jason C

@ShadowWizard Lol. I was waiting for somebody to comment on that. I like living on the edge.

You can blame Gordon Ramsay Dash for that.

Shadow Wizard

@Andy not about the cheese being moved, more like the way you eat the cheese.

Jason C

Diner Dash + Gordon Ramsay insults = goodbye, battery.

Shadow Wizard

lol

Jason C

"Take two pieces of bread, toast them, stick them on your ears, and make an idiot f***in' sandwich!"

Formatting challenge accepted. Let's see.

Yeahhhh that's it, you like that, markdown? Tell me you like it.

Shog9

21:27

@ShadowWizard what Andy said

Also, use it for at least a few hours (that's a few hours of active use, not a few hours while you take a long lunch) before making a call; it takes a bit of time just to get used to things like the mirror layout.

Jason C

Hey what's the/a trick for making images in posts smaller? meta.stackexchange.com/questions/290751/… is way bigger on desktop than it looked on my phone.

rene

I always test my software during lunch. Helped a lot to drop the defect rates

Shog9

@JasonC 1) Open GIMP, paste in image, resize, save, upload

or

2) add "m" to the URL: i.sstatic.net/VEJcqm.png

Jason C

Wait

What m

Oh weird

Why does that work

Shog9

imgur feature

Jason C

21:31

m is for mind blown

Shadow Wizard

@JasonC imgur creates bunch of thumbnails for every uploaded picture

Jason C

Is there a trick to center images horizontally in the post?

Shog9

@JasonC full list of thumbnail options

@JasonC yeah - make it the exact width of the post

"l" might be slightly better.

Jason C

Wow.

Shog9

(you can use   as a crappy alignment method, but...)

(...don't)

Jason C

21:33

Imgur skill leveled up.

Shadow Wizard

22:00

@Shog9 heh, was going to suggest that. :)

@JasonC they got it for years, not just for stack afaik.

(they also got a feature that no matter what extension you put in the URL, you'll always see the actual extension. e.g. you can have URL of .png file, showing you animated gif)

let's see...

"png" ^

rene

it didn't blow up IE11, which amazes me ...

Shadow Wizard

@rene it's a cute cat. Bad cat will blow IE11 for sure.

rene

I see

Shadow Wizard

I hear

rene

I smell

Shadow Wizard

22:10

I sniff

rene

I fart

Shadow Wizard

I faint

rene

I burp

Shadow Wizard

I eat

Jason C

22:29

I accidentally

@Shog9 Thanks for cleaning up those comments, but is there any chance you could undelete my comment on meta.stackexchange.com/a/290521/230261 that questioned the premise? It's relevant to the answer, and (I think) a legit question.

I believe it was the last comment I made there. 2nd or 3rd one, I think.

Jason C

22:45

Thanks. Now:

I read a story once about an organization that hit upon the idea of avoiding user drama by posting potentially-upsetting notices in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard", @JasonC. I forget how that worked out for the users involved, but... Probably good? — Shog9 ♦ 8 mins ago

@Shog9 Well, to complete the analogy, imagine that situation where the same notices were also already posted on the buildings next door, distributed in flyers on everybody's cars, displayed on every billboard in the surrounding area, written on banners dragged by airplanes, played on tape players next to the users' beds as they slept, displayed on a movie screen in a dark room while users' were tied to a chair with their eyes pried open, etc.

Then you kind of wonder what they achieved by cluttering up their bathroom with a filing cabinet, when the only thing that changed at the end of the day was the available floor space in their bathroom.

TIL @Pops is apparently short for "popular demand". And all this time I thought he was just a good father figure.

Shog9

@JasonC you must be new here

Jason C

Lol

Shog9

(Lord "Popular Demand" Torgamus was a regular fixture of this tavern in its early days)

Jason C

I have had my mind blown like 12 times today. And typed exactly zero lines of code.

Shog9

@JasonC FWIW, I'm not ignoring you, I'm just trying to ignore you, because I'll never get through all these flags otherwise.

Jason C

22:52

FWIW Anybody is more than welcome to ignore me without explanation. Anyways I stuck that reply in chat instead of the comments because it's more of a side convo. And obviously a bit too specific to recent events. I didn't want to make too much more noise there. It's not exactly urgent business, either.

SmokeDetector

23:15

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer: Wrong mv command. Where did my files go? by Lydia on unix.stackexchange.com

user315433

23:59

Literature is in public beta

user202362

user315433

IoT mods were announced today, although two of them were appointed Jan. 30, and the third on Feb. 3. One thing at a time?

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