Tavern on the Meta - 2016-10-28

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12:16 AM

@hichris123 Mine from Oct 1 says 80th...interesting

Just watched the apple special event. Those new MacBook Pros look pretty good.

They're also downright expensive...

the touch bar or whatever they added looks like it's straight out of iOS 5 UI

I mean it doesn't look bad though

@bjb568 secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/sat/… Wow, 50,000 people take this test and 20% are getting 800s...thats a lot - 10k people with 800s.

user202362

12:45 AM

user image

user202362

Nope

12:57 AM

I brought a chainsaw to work

Halloween is the best. I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I sleep all night and I work all day

user202362

Oo

user315433

And SE have their meetup over the Halloween, hmm.

user315433

FR: share non-classified powerpoints from the meetup. #defaultpublic

1:12 AM

moralmachine.mit.edu/results/72430651

1:54 AM

"The problem described here can no longer be reproduced"?? meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/337043/…

mSO should just do away with all non-dupe close votes. It would fix wasting people's time with closing & reopening.

2:29 AM

You could just stop caring about close votes on meta.

They don't really benefit or harm a whole lot.

They shut down discussion. :/

2:44 AM

If it's that zealous, then reopenv and question others' sanity.

I do that way too often... :/

user315433

3:44 AM

Not much is lost if a meta discussion is shut down... By its nature, on a mature site meta tends to become an echo chamber of gradually dwindling camp 1.

6:03 AM

@zaq so better shut down meta and be done with it.

2 hours later…

7:44 AM

@TravisJ To name just one example: "Every question is ontopic on exactly one site." That said, this is more about the general mindset. I have seen many feature requests closed as duplicates of status-declined posts that are a) old and b) declined without much discussion but a healthy dose of dogma instead. This has to stop. — Raphael Oct 18 at 22:15

Trad: If you post that request on the main meta, I will gladly upvote.

3 hours later…

10:23 AM

ZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZzzzZZZzzZZz

Rage Against the Machine - Wake Up - 7/24/1999 - Woodstock 99 East Stage (Official)

10:46 AM

→ 27 messages moved to Chimney

11:34 AM

placing a pillow for @Derpy to use while sleeping

Do you want sleeping ponies all over your apartment?

Because thats how you get sleeping ponies all over your apartment

To Do:
□ get some free cumulonimbus clouds for Magisch.
□ get another muffin

□ get Bart some coffee

@Bart HTTP 418bis: I'm a pony

12:06 PM

@ShadowWizard thanks for the idea, but I have my cloud.

user315433

12:31 PM

Morning, or whatever. Read any good burnination requests lately?

@zaq Yep, one right here

7 hours ago, by Shadow Wizard

@zaq so better shut down meta and be done with it.

12:46 PM

@Rand al'Thor, I want a private chat

He's not pingable here?

@Bart, how do I ping him?

@KyloRen you don't.

shouldn't you ask him on science-fiction&fantasy where he is most of the time?

^

12:50 PM

@Derpy, I don't know how to do that

@KyloRen if this is about this question use the "contact us" link at the bottom of the scifi site. Explain what you want to happen and why.

@Derpy suspended

@Bart, that gives me nothing????

@ArtOfCode That makes sense, I assumed he needed to ask something privately to a mod on that site to avoid disclosure of some security issue or other similar stuff

@KyloRen this link scifi.stackexchange.com/contact

12:52 PM

@Derpy not in this case :)

@ArtOfCode, what do you know?

The art of code apparently

@Bart, apparemtly so

@KyloRen I can see that you're suspended. Sure, I can't see the mod message, but I can see from Bart's link above that you were destroying your own content, which is something that gets you suspended.

put the pieces together, and one has a pretty good assumption

@ArtOfCode, its is my content. Why can't I delete it?

12:55 PM

@KyloRen Because its not yours anymore

@KyloRen because that's how the system works

You licensed it to stack exchange when posting it

@KyloRen Bzzt. Wrong.

"perpetually and irrevocably"

And you don't have the right to revoke that license

12:55 PM

You do have the right to have your name removed from it, and to do that you contact SE and ask for the post to be dissociated.

Ahh, so I will no more post. Fixed

"3. Subscriber Content You agree that all Subscriber Content that You contribute to the Network is perpetually and irrevocably licensed to Stack Exchange under the Creative Commons Attribution Share Alike license."

version 3.0

Disassociation would be your best bet, if you no longer want it attached to your name.

So you can post content. But you can't change to how you want?

12:57 PM

@KyloRen Thats your perogative, of course.

For that, use the contact us link I mentioned before.

@KyloRen correct.

@Magisch, that is breaking the agreement then

How so?

If you post something SE determines is worth keeping, they'll keep it, in the version they think its worth keeping. Thats how Q/A works here. They can of course decide to remove your content, but they don't have to.

@KyloRen Every single version of every piece of content you post is irrevocably and perpetually licensed to StackExchange, so if they want to keep revision 2 of one of your answers, they absolutely can.

12:59 PM

The agreement states that what ever you post is "irrevocably licensed to Stack Exchange " , which means any change is also "irrevocably licensed to Stack Exchange "

right

as well as the original

they have both - they choose to display the first version

So I can change how I want itr to be

@KyloRen ...you're reading the license wrong

And they can remove your change since they have the rights to the first version as well

Change ... sure. Destroy, nope.

1:00 PM

No, the licence states it that way

But they can still use whatever version they want

@Bart, no where does it say destroy

If you post "I'm blue" and you edit it to "I'm red", they have rights to both, and can choose to display either one or both or none.

SE has a license to version #1 of your post. If they like version 1, and they don't like version 13, they can change it back to version 1. While they have a license to version 13, they're not obligated to use that version.

<<< is an Open Source mod

@ArtOfCode, no where in the aggreement does it say that

1:01 PM

It doesn't @KyloRen. That's the consequence of your actions however. You're trying to take your ball with you by destroying content, hoping that will mean they'll no longer use what you have already licensed to them. That's not gonna fly

2

It says any content you post is licensed to them

When you edit a post, you create new content

Which you also license to them

@KyloRen which bit of it

The old content is still there (in places like the revision history) and they still have a right to it

So they may always choose to discard your new content (the edit) and use the old version (which they still have the rights to) instead.

"Stack Exchange reserves the right to remove any Subscriber Content from the Network, re-post to the Network any Subscriber Content removed by any Subscriber or former Subscriber, suspend or terminate Subscriber’s right to use the Services at any time"

2

Copywrite law regardless of what agreement is made here comes into effect. Any content I post is mine, not StackExchange.

1:04 PM

Unless you ...

... license it to them

Absolutely. You don't lose copyright. But you licensed your content to them.

Which you did.

@Magisch, but I didd not

You did

@KyloRen you own the copyright, yes, but you have irrevocably given SE a license to use your content in - effectively - any way they want to, as long as they attribute you.

1:05 PM

You did

By posting.

@KyloRen You did when you posted here.

When you made an account, you agreed to all of these terms.

As did I

10 mins ago, by Bart

"3. Subscriber Content You agree that all Subscriber Content that You contribute to the Network is perpetually and irrevocably licensed to Stack Exchange under the Creative Commons Attribution Share Alike license."

Making an account does not preclude me from copywrite.

I couldn't go around defacing my content either

1:06 PM

It's kinda tough luck, @Kylo. Whether you believe it or not, what we're telling you is true. You could post it on Meta.SE and get the same answer; you could ask the lawyers and get the same answer; if you post about it on Open Source, they'll tell you the same thing.

Right @KyloRen. You still own full copyright. That doesn't change you licensing the content though.

@KyloRen Indeed, but copyright allows you to license part of your work to other people, which you did, to stack exchange

@bart, that will no hold up in a court of law.

Feel free to test it

@KyloRen oho, yes it will.

1:07 PM

But save yourself the time and money

You're free to sue SE over it

I don't advise suing Stack Exchange.

"I posted something under creative commons but didn't want to, halp"

@ArtOfCode, no it won't. The law is very clear.

Right

1:07 PM

Heh, so you wanna sue SE because it doesn't let you delete content and you only want to delete it because you get downvotes?

@KyloRen okay, so go ask this question on Law.

It is ... but not in the way you think. Anyway, either use the "contact us" option, or move on. Or sue. Or whatever. I think we're pretty much done with how much we can help you out.

:)

mumbles something grumpily

Murmur.

1:08 PM

@Magisch welcome to my world

Murmurmur.

Funny how all are retracting comments.

The important ones are still there. Have a great day

moderation, without actually having mod powers :)

Sueing SE would not be very hard at all. They won't win on the content.

1:10 PM

there's something about SE that forces people to self-moderate a lot :p

@KyloRen and when would you like me to write you in for the bankruptcy appointment?

user image

@ArtOfCode, I am worth about how much stack as a site as a whole is valued, so no I am not afraid.

Right-o :) Can you ask them to make sure the case is televised? I'd like to watch.

@ArtOfCode, why would I bother?

1:13 PM

Academic interest, you know.

For science

I'm feeling like it would give me a better understanding of the finer points of CC BY-SA 3.0, which I can't deny would be useful for Open Source.

@ArtOfCode, over copyright, if I lived in the States and I was in the position I was. I would do it.

You have a very flawed understanding about US copyright law

@Magisch, hows so?

1:16 PM

@Magisch if we haven't convinced him by now, he won't be convinced. Just let it go

@KyloRen A noble thing to do, standing up for the rights of the millions of SE users who are being duped by this whole licensing thing.

@Bart Illuminati confirmed: Bart was Elsa all along

Here is what happened: 1. You signed up, 2. By signing up, you agreed that all your content here would be licensed under CC BY SA 3.0, 3. You posted some content.

@ArtOfCode, I learnt a long time ago, the law does not favor the majority.

You have no way of "unlicensing" or removing said content.

You can stop posting more, of course.

You can even request that it no longer shows as posted by you.

But the content stays.

1:19 PM

@Bart -1 doesn't loop

Holy crap. Magisch is trying to help here. Blasphemy

Shhh. The zaq has come.

user315433

I find the lack of Star Wars references in this debate disturbing.

2

@Magisch, if I want that content gone. It can be done. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informational_self-determination and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_of_originality

@Magisch And now the next question: If I am really evil and just use an image link to an image on my blog that contains the answer text, I should be able to change the image whenever I want. But, did I licensed the content of the image or just the location?

No matter what the sites regulations are , law will always trump that.

Yeah I agree.

I couldn't agree more.

1:23 PM

I see what you did there

@Magisch, if a court says so, the content will be removed

Go for it. But we're done here I'd say.

@Derpy the content contained within the image was licensed to you under CC BY-SA 3.0. Because that's a copyleft license, your image is a derivative and must also be licensed under CC BY-SA 3.0. You also pass on the license to the content. So: both the content of the image, and the image itself, are BY-SA licensed.

@KyloRen You have that option then. If you feel that strongly about it, have your day in court. In the meantime, the current rules, guidelines and terms of service say the content stays.

OK so that pic yoy just posted is now part of SE. How is that so ?

1:26 PM

@ArtOfCode so, this means that if I link an image on my blog, I am supposed to also make sure that the image stays valid and the same?

My agreeablenesscity is overflowing right now.

@Derpy not necessarily. You can change the image you link to, if you want to, but the original image will retain the CC BY-SA license.

Trad: if i lose the image, or change it, technically Stack could ask me a copy of the original one??

@Bart He has the best trumps. His trumps are the best because they're good.

And that's China's fault.

Thank you.

@Derpy yes

1:28 PM

@Bart, the gif you posted

I don't know if they could legally demand you provide a copy, but they could certainly ask.

@ArtOfCode one more reason to avoid any possible discussion and only support images on the official stack imgur account.

user202362

@zaq let's talk about Dandan noodles, assume you, raccoon under a tree, eating Dandan noodles ...

@ArtOfCode, so now that gif is this sites property?

@KyloRen I am unaware of the exact TOS for chat. But if it were a post, yes. However it is up to me to make sure that I have the right to post whatever I post. If I don't, then I violate the TOS.

1:29 PM

@Telkitty . . . eating raccoons under a tree . . .

@KyloRen No, actually - that image was just a link to something elsewhere

@bart, if you tried to pass that, you will lose very badly

@ArtOfCode, which has the copyright to it

user202362

@M.A.R. very intelligent ... unless raccoon has rabies

Not really @KyloRen.

@Telkitty Or babies

1:30 PM

@bart how is so

@KyloRen Aye, but linking to that alone doesn't violate copyright. The link text Bart posted, if it exceeded the threshold of originality, would now be CC-Wiki licensed.

> Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chou. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.

If the rightful owner shows up and files a takedown request, it will be taken down. After that it's between the rightful owner and me to settle any disputes.

@ArtOfCode, aggreed but the content is the onwers. aggreed

user202362

user image

1:31 PM

@Bart It actually wouldn't have to, given that it was just a link

But given that the content you posted is yours, the license stands.

@KyloRen yeah, that.

@ArtOfCode it kinda sorta would, given that the link is under the stack imgur I'd say.

@ArtOfCode, which means any content I post here is mine

Yup, but not yours to take away

1:31 PM

user image

Now this one LOOPS.

@Bart oh, right, so in that case the owner would have to file a DMCA takedown with imgur.

Yes

I have an unlimited supply of digital popcorn. Eat it.

@bart, on the contray. If that image is someone elses and they can take it away so can I

Nope

That's not how that works

1:32 PM

@KyloRen not quite, the situations are a bit different. Bart linked to some content that was hosted off-site. What you do when you post here is to directly put that content on Stack Exchange.

I don't know where you get the interpretation from, but I'd suggest you study it a bit more.

@bart, so you are saying that this site can take any image in the world and keep it for themssleves?

If the rightful owner licenses it to them, yes

If you linked to an image that was hosted off-site, that contained your answer text, then yes, you could change and/or delete it as you want.

I also don't advise doing that, it'll get your answers deleted.

@Bart, I licese my content

1:35 PM

Yup. Perpetually and irrevocably. No taksies backsies.

I like how Bart and Card, I mean Art, keep saying what they're saying and Kylo keeps saying his.

It's like this discussion will continue till eternity.

@Bart, which means my content is mine, no one esles. Regardless if I post here.

All while just one suing could've solved all teh issues.

Sure. The original content is yours. You can repost it somewhere else. You can relicense it under a restrictive license. You can laminate it and turn it into coasters.

@Bart Christmas idea!

1:37 PM

But the license between you and SE doesn't change.

@Bart Now we need a Winter Bash hat for laminators.

@Telkitty It would've been cuter if it/he/she/it wasn't eating that sausage.

@Bart, no it doesn't , but an individual companies regulations do not trump federal laws

@KyloRen Oh, if you want to argue that their TOS is unlawful, by all means fight that fight.

In the appropriate place

@Bart, if I cared I would.

But given that you don't ... we're done here?

1:39 PM

This discussion isn't getting anywhere. You should do one of two things: Use the contact us form as we recommended. If you are really as upset as your arguments imply...fight in court to challenge them. But, in this case, arguing here is not doing anything.

Both sides have said the same thing at least 3 times

I'm having Lazslo flashbacks

@KyloRen If you don't care, why do we have this discussion?

2

If only because you want us to agree with you, I agree with you perfectly.

You're very right.

You're too right for this chat.

Use this rightness in right ways.

I am just trying to prove a point that content is not what you think it is. However misguided people are. No one is dumb enough to waste the money involved to retract a forum post, which is why we have not seen a case like this. But, rest assured, stack would lose if someone was to challenge them to deleting their content. If they were so confident, we would be hearing from the top gurus that they would win, eventually.

Kthxbye

@KyloRen Proving a point when you're wrong according to documents? Now why is this scene so familiar . . .

Yes, stack would lose.

You win the debate.

@M.A.R., really?

1:45 PM

Really.

Really

@Bart what part of this remind you of Lazlo?

And here we are, with a shadow wizard that missed everything.

:-(

(-:

1:48 PM

Laszlo had thin skin

I stole his skin

Mine is thick now

user202362

@M.A.R. don't be mean to @zaq ... just because one is not young and innocent, it doesn't mean one's finger is any less good ...

What does this have to do with zaq? Oh wait

Nope, I still don't get it.

What does this have to do with zaq? Oh wait

Nope, I still don't get it.

What does this have to do with zaq? Oh wait

@M.A.R. so you admit being thick? ;-)

SKIN. I SAID MY SKIN IN THICK

Where's Derpy and the unicorn uncouthness image thingy?

1:52 PM

innocent face

Arrrrrest him

sad face

@Derpy Going around in circles until you're dizzy

user image

user202362

I mean ... @M.A.R. ... like ... have you had a bit alcohol ... maybe just a little bit ...

1:57 PM

No

Maybe

No

I don't like alcohol. It's lame.

user202362

so instead of Dandan noodles, you would rather have alcohol with raccoons under a tree?

Chemicals don't eat things, why doesn't anybody get that?!

We just catalyze.

And only some of us do.

And I don't really endorse it.

Btw, I didn't joke when I said I added the scold button to the chat interface

. . . Why do I get the feeling that November will suck?

2:34 PM

user image

@ShadowWizard ^

user202362

Oo darling not daily, I thought you were going to write a script to scold someone daily

I must add that outside of a certain room I don't have to use this button too much.... but it still stays there for when the need arises.

@Telkitty you never heard some Rarity's dialogue, I suppose.

3:24 PM

@Derpy What would scold do? I wonder if I should endorse it

@M.A.R. when you point at a post and use the scold button, it simply automates a reply to that post containing the image you saw before.

not very useful here in the Tavern, but if you go to Shadow's Den expect to have to use it multiple times a day.

That place is just ... tsk tsk tsk

3:39 PM

@Bart It's a wrong ellipsis indeed

@Derpy Well, certain users might get carried away with it.

Like Bart.

^ SCOLD HIM!

Now that's just abusing the power of sissy unicorns

nope, that requires another reply.

user image

...

I should have gone for a not-animated version

oh, well...

not worse than the fox one

well, have to go for now.

Later.

3:58 PM

Lates

I was reported at over my repcap end of yesterday, so I did /reputation which showed me at 2 less than the site UI does. -- 2016-10-28 rep +70 = 57687

It still hasn't corrected.

@AaronHall You should go to your rep cap to see what happened

When you rep-cap, then receive a downvote, you cap at 198 rep

@Derpy I know, honored to make you use it! :-)

I don't know if it matters or if I'm needlessly drawing attention to myself in meta once more.

@Derpy not any more, I'm afraid...

4:07 PM

probably the latter

user315433

4:46 PM

@AaronHall Post from another account. I heard of some people doing that on Meta...

user315433

Although... doesn't work when it's a question about your rep record.

5:05 PM

I don't do the multiple accounts thing.

Who has the time? Not me.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Any tips to reduce chance that I have to get up and pee in the night (not counting dehydration, of course) by GottaTinkle on outdoors.stackexchange.com

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected: Prove that $n+1 \\choose k$ = $n \\choose k$ + $n \\choose k-1$ by pozo's student on math.stackexchange.com

5:40 PM

@zaq Aaron Bot?

user315433

6:05 PM

Aarobot, Mountain View, CA

26.8k 4 56 120

discussion feature-request support stackoverflow reputation status-completed area51

user315433

The account isn't in use anymore...

6:38 PM

:?

Not to be confusaled with moi.

Hey, I did a self Q&A that wasn't greeted with scorn by the great unwashed masses. Did something happen behind the scenes that helped? Has there been a greater awareness of the purpose of self Q&A lately? Or was it just a good Q&A?

I just hit the top 1000, and now I'm looking at the top 100 and wondering if that's possible... :/

7:14 PM

@AaronHall call it luck

I don't believe in luck.

I do believe in likelihoods and probabilities, however.

Holey flip-flop: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12818459

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer: Bayesian network for classification using PyMc or PyMc3 by arsenyinfo on datascience.stackexchange.com

@Bart ... nightmares ... ?

7:34 PM

\o

Borodin, England, United Kingdom

1 7 41 97

perl regex arrays hash xml awk ruby

> This account is temporarily suspended to cool down. The suspension period ends on Nov 27 at 19:19.

why ?

Suspensions aren't discussed in public.

any mod here ?

i see

@TGMCians caused havoc on meta with a few posts, that is all I noticed.

hmmm

8:01 PM

That's a pretty good penalty. Worst case I've seen is like a decade. Most that I've seen are for 1 year, but that's probably because 1 year lasts longer than 1 month...

A decade ban wasn't given by a mod (at least not recently). Those are employee provided bans.

I figured so, mods can't ban longer than a year as I understand it.

user315433

All multi-year suspensions I've seen were network wide.

user315433

1

Q: Why is an answer being downvoted without any comments?

An answer has multiple downvotes but nobody has left a comment explaining what's wrong with the answer or why they downvoted. Why hasn't anyone explained their downvote?

support featured comments down-votes faq-proposal

user315433

An interesting idea, posting an intended FAQ without an answer and making it featured... might end up with a bunch of answers that aren't really FAQ worthy

8:15 PM

Getting recommendations is like herding cats, but worse. It's like herding hoomans.

ohh hey @bjb568 you are still around here whats up

Seems to still be the third basis vector of some space similar to R^3.

user315433

@bjb568 If you don't like getting recommendation letters, try writing them...

Hey, can I order my pint of hoppiness yet?

@zaq I did.

@AaronHall :(

FSM has reached his noodley appendages out to me. I thot Oct had 30 days, but he has granted me another before the deadline.

user315433

8:25 PM

OCT 31 = DEC 25, you are two months late!

I finally got @zaq's Star Wars joke... :(

user315433

Unfortunately for her, real Star Wars fans are attracted to a gal with a good force choke.

user315433

8:41 PM

Is the moon shape correct here, by the way?

user315433

Whenever I see a picture of the moon where the points go more than halfway around, I assume it's being eclipsed by one of those Independence Day ships and interpret the rest of the image in light of that.

@rene if you can't sleep to begin with, are they still nightmares?

@Bart no, that doesn't count. That is an awakemares

9:16 PM

I'm going thru the old music I composed. o_0.

user335633

yo

user image

Apparently the trill wouldn't play back correctly.

So I wrote that.

9:52 PM

3blue1brown patreon announcement

Hey, yo, all of you with money, go give it to this guy.

1 hour later…

user315433

11:00 PM

The Rolling Stones - Happy - Live (1972) Official

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