Tavern on the Meta

Andreas moved to Codidact

3:47 AM

@Tinkeringbell I bit the nuts again, does drinking frying oil help?

starball

5:36 AM

anyone else able to repro meta.stackexchange.com/q/402036/997587 ?

Elements In Space

@starball Yeah.

starball

5:53 AM

ok cool not just me

Elements In Space

“Island voting”. It sounds like one of those Survivor game shows.

Andreas moved to Codidact

7:07 AM

@ElementsInSpace imdb.com/title/tt0399201

Journeyman Geek

7:35 AM

→ 19 messages moved to Chimney

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact it could

basically capsasin is fat soluble, milk's generally fat, natural emulsifiers, water and other stuff

so it'll bind with the capasin

Tinkeringbell

7:57 AM

Talking about milk... I was so proud of my latte this morning, I'd never made one with a foam this 'sturdy'.

As in, the foam rose over the top of the cup XD

Except... turns out this was because the milk curdled XD

Which is weird because it's still perfectly drinkable and within the 'best before' date, no sour smell or whatever, but when it comes in contact with heat/steam, it curdles XD

Journeyman Geek

hm

fresh, homogenised and/or UHT?

SPArcheon - on strike

8:19 AM

random check...

^ @ElementsInSpace just wondering, do you get the reference?

Elements In Space

I don’t get it.

SPArcheon - on strike

@ElementsInSpace Thanks, This proves it is pretty obscure even to people who saw the show.

@JourneymanGeek so. Perhaps this is just overthinking stuff....

Elements In Space

I haven’t finished season 7 yet. Have I seen the right episode?

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon-onstrike could be that the milk seperated and the cream + heat is reacting differently from whole milk

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek But what are exactly the chances that a 2% userbase set includes basically every actor in the recent data dump arguments on Meta?

Tinkeringbell

8:30 AM

@JourneymanGeek Just milk?

The general supermarket kind.

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon-onstrike lemme think of a 'nice' way to say this

the roll out has been messy, and there's been enough strange bugs that I don't think I can say that's plausible

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek I know... but you have to give me that on the surface it looks like they did cherry pick most active users on the dump posts

Journeyman Geek

ah no

It literally was such a random 2% quite a few mods didn't have access :D

Also, you di realise that if every actor in the data dump arguments, and disagreed with the current policy got access it kinda... means people are going to pick apart the new system more enthusiastically, right?

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek I do, I do quite well...

Journeyman Geek

9:18 AM

Also I feel like calling out potential malicious compliance is both not the best stratergy and entirely on brand for us :D

Andreas moved to Codidact

9:50 AM

@SPArcheon-onstrike Did she pour her milk over them or something?

Milk is healthy. Milk helps you grow.

@JourneymanGeek So your conclusion is that I should drink cooking oil?

SPArcheon - on strike

@ElementsInSpace Too Many Pinkie Pies S3Ep3

Andreas moved to Codidact

@ElementsInSpace Oh, no. Have you been ponified?

Who took away 's name?!

SPArcheon - on strike

@ElementsInSpace but you should also consider that I have been called creepy for my memory about specific episodes scenes.

in Wizards Den, Dec 3, 2014 at 12:10, by Vogel612's Shadow

@SPArchaeologist this is ... maybe slightly creepy. I couldn't do that with about anything I've seen..

Andreas moved to Codidact

Makes you natural inventory in the den.

Journeyman Geek

10:10 AM

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact + water and maybe some soap. Clearly

SPArcheon - on strike

I just realized something about Copilot.

Andreas moved to Codidact

Codidact?

@JourneymanGeek Good idea.

Journeyman Geek

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact smacks @AndreasmovedtoCodidact on the nose with a rolled up newspaper

SPArcheon - on strike

... history is really just a repeated samsara cycle.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@JourneymanGeek Smash, next?

Elements In Space

10:12 AM

@SPArcheon-onstrike I’ll have to rewatch it. I’m still trying to keep up with Faz-week ATM.

SPArcheon - on strike

Copilot... is just Clippy repeating.

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon-onstrike The cloud is just mainframe computing again too :D

Andreas moved to Codidact

Now let me get back to suggest a small upgrade to the tag wiki page on Codidact...

Journeyman Geek

in a few years someone will invent decent search and ads that are not obtrusive...

SPArcheon - on strike

3

Elements In Space

10:15 AM

The interacting novel is somewhat challenging to map out, and the Google Books version is slightly scrambled.

M.A.R.

11:25 AM

@JourneymanGeek ❌️ Do not do anything. The cow is looking for an excuse to become aggressive.

Journeyman Geek

11:35 AM

Some say there are no cow attacks. Other say no one who was attacked by the cow lived to tell the tale.

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. Moo

@JourneymanGeek You've clearly never watched bullfighting.

Journeyman Geek

(singaporean park signs are a ... whole thing)

@Tinkeringbell Ahh see

But this is THE cow

(who happens to be male)

Tinkeringbell

See, so it's a bull, not a cow :P

Journeyman Geek

it is not a cow

it is the cow

Tinkeringbell

What makes it the cow?

Journeyman Geek

11:43 AM

@Tinkeringbell he used to be the only feral cow in singapore, on a small island that later was turned into a public park

Tinkeringbell

Poor bull.

No wonder he turned feral.

Journeyman Geek

Basically singaporeans who arn't very old are ... not really in touch with nature and are clueless

Tinkeringbell

Oh that sounds familiar :D

We got dumb young tourists like that here too. With the highlander cattle, or even worse, hogs. They do all the dumb things all the time.

Journeyman Geek

highlander cattle?

Tinkeringbell

No sure, just walk between mother and calf, right ahead. I'm suuuuure it'll be fine.

Journeyman Geek

11:45 AM

~~those ones that run around with swords beheading each other?~~ the dangerously fluffy ones?

Tinkeringbell

Sorry, 'highland', not highlander :P Yeah, those.

Highland cattle

The Highland (Scottish Gaelic: Bò Ghàidhealach; Scots: Heilan coo) is a Scottish breed of rustic cattle. It originated in the Scottish Highlands and the Western Islands of Scotland and has long horns and a long shaggy coat. It is a hardy breed, able to withstand the intemperate conditions in the region. The first herd-book dates from 1885; two types – a smaller island type, usually black, and a larger mainland type, usually dun – were registered as a single breed. It is reared primarily for beef, and has been exported to several other countries. == History == The Highland is a traditional breed...

Journeyman Geek

I tend to follow dog rules there - if there's a human around, ask if they're friendly and if I can approach

there used to be a giant retired cart-bull near my gran's. Used to go on rounds with his owner, and stop by for a snack. He was friendly but I still asked :D

Tinkeringbell

They're wild, free-roaming animals, not babysat by any human.

Journeyman Geek

ah yeah, that's a no

Tinkeringbell

I'd love a friendly neighborhood cow.

or bull

Journeyman Geek

11:47 AM

I don't know cattle enough to know their body language

Tinkeringbell

Well lets just say it's wild animals, so it's always dumb to walk straight between a mother and child.

Journeyman Geek

Oh generally that's true :D

We have had a few otter attacks due to that

But yeah, this is why we have signs

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek WHAT???

Journeyman Geek

that's in the training data page franck linked :D

And its an additional restriction, though a hilariously broad one

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek And?

Journeyman Geek

11:53 AM

CC licence says no additional restrictions does it not? :D

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek If you say that then you are also saying that AMTwo is right

Journeyman Geek

That's not what I said

THere's a reason that post has 2 parts, and is so long. There's a distinct nuance here

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek I don't think we are thinking about the same thing.

Journeyman Geek

I don't entirely agree with AMTwo's read on the situation

SPArcheon - on strike

I was just pointing out that you implied to agree that adding additional restrictions on a CC license is a violation, while some other users don't seem to agree

Coincidentally, that is (part) of what AMTwo claims in the last post he made.

Journeyman Geek

12:04 PM

I had a conversation about this specifically with phillpe somewhere

31

A: Announcing a change to the data-dump process

So there's a few 'transformative' versions of the datadump that respect the CC licence, and exist specifically due to the open nature of the network - Brent Ozar's MSSQL conversion comes to mind. There's an older dump on bigquery by google (who is a SE partner) which appears to have been last upd...

The restrictions are on getting the files from SE

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek the restriction are on the usage and the effects are about getting the file from SE

Journeyman Geek

The obligation to provide dumps is very much a social contract

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek true, they don't have to but if they do imho they have to accept that they can't change how the CC work, nor vexate the users into being unable to use the data to the full extend of the rights given them by the CC.

Journeyman Geek

But the real issue isn't the manner of access. Its that there's no external/independant repository of these things

We have a low bus factor, and the bus factor is the company

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Tinkeringbell Mother community, child data dump, stupid tourist SE.

SPArcheon - on strike

12:12 PM

@JourneymanGeek You may have a wrong idea about why people are so "attached" to the idea of using the dump to train LLM

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon-onstrike cause they're told they can't

as I said, its a distraction

Having an independant, sustainable place for the dumps to be accessible is the 'real' issue

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek no, it is you being blind and wanting to be blind imho. Sorry to have to say this.

> Honestly, I think most of the handwringing about LLM training misses the forests for the tree.

you claim they miss the point, but I say you miss THEIR.

Journeyman Geek

If they hadn't stopped uploading to internet archive there wouldn't be an issue

SPArcheon - on strike

In their eyes, bruteforcing SE into a "your action are illegal" scenario is the only option left to force them to go back.

So their goal is exactly the same.

Journeyman Geek

And it clearly works so well

SPArcheon - on strike

12:15 PM

They simply don't think the company is open to reason.

@JourneymanGeek Give them some time...

I have the felling someone is going to bring their DPA into the dance.

As I said, this will be a "fun" month.

Journeyman Geek

If you like drama I guess

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek sorry, my bad. For disclosure, whenever is say "fun" wrapped in quotes, that is the Dwarf Fortress definition of FUN

Journeyman Geek

I was gonna ask about if there was a mutually acceptable possibility of an external datadump host, and what might work

The moment you start throwing things like ethics and lawsuits, it becomes a lot harder to have a reasoned conversation. AMTwo has inside information, and probably knows things better than we do - the pressure might be useful but I don't agree with his read on it

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek AMTwo basically confirmed as an insider that despite the claim this isn't in any way about "ethical usage". This is just a way to protect a product they are currently working to monetize.

"For inquiries about using the data for large language model (LLM) training, please contact us." means "you must pay us, then do what you want with the data"

So, personally, I don't think your conversations would have got us anywhere.

Journeyman Geek

That's in my answer actually

SPArcheon - on strike

12:32 PM

@JourneymanGeek then how could you hope to have an external host if all they want is to have an in house repo they can police to protect their monetized assets?

Journeyman Geek

Well, to an extent, trying to convince people its in their best interests really

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek out of curiosity, why do you think so? Why do you think it is in their interest too, given the blatantly opposite purpose the site serves for them (a factory that produces sell-able content) and we simple users (knowledge repository)

Journeyman Geek

Well - cause they're worried about site numbers and I think there's at least a dim realisation that the 'core' contributory communities are small

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek again, and please just consider this as no more than a coffee break chat... do you ever considered that they may very well be in a "till it dies out" scenario already? Reduce investment and try to minimize losses / maximize gain as long as the site survives?

Journeyman Geek

Well - my dystopean scenario is they decide teams can survive independantly of public Q&A and cut it off

Teams isn't doing that hot

I see, perhaps a little optimistically - that if they're going to sell an API, fresh data is the product, and we might see some re-investment

SPArcheon - on strike

12:40 PM

Because the perpetuated employees firing and projects launched just do die the day afterward doesn't give the idea they are working to make the site rise up.

Journeyman Geek

and historically they don't react too well to getting yelled at

SPArcheon - on strike

In my eyes we are in an extreme "power saving mode"

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon-onstrike that assumes a greater level of long term planning than we've seen

@SPArcheon-onstrike I mean, company culture has been pretty broken in the last decade

And the people making the worst decisions are probably not going to hear is, and I'd like to be a bit more productive with the ones who do

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek au contraire, that assume no plan past "reduce cost and keep the site going on life support as much as possible while trying to make as much money as possible. As soon as it dies, enter plan C - fire everyone and run with the money.

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon-onstrike assuming there's money to run with

We're not yet in the butcher for parts part of the VC lifecycle and if we are, what's the point at being angry?

SPArcheon - on strike

12:44 PM

@JourneymanGeek I mean, I saw companies going bankrupt and higher ups still running with the money.

Mithical

@JourneymanGeek Teams has some baffling implementation decisions that really make it annoying to use.

Journeyman Geek

@Mithical yeah :D

THe onebox

FOR THE LOVE OF DOG, WE HAVE A PERFECTLY GOOD INBOX SYSTEM ON PUB PLAT YOU CAN SHAMELESSLY STEAL.

Mithical

The inbox, "content health" reviews flooding the active page, the lack of reliable keyboard shortcuts, the "home page"... the decoupling from the network, entirely killing its original main selling point...

Journeyman Geek

.... I mentally tune out content health

@Mithical I think there's a cycle of SE badly wanting to be a SAAS company, then loosing focus - I think in a sense careers has the same problem

It makes no sense outside the context of the public Q&A but ends up being the tail wagging the dog

M.A.R.

Let us now go find more dog proverbs.

Journeyman Geek

12:54 PM

@M.A.R. I'm contractually obligated to make dog metaphors.

M.A.R.

@JourneymanGeek sometimes, you can't teach an old trick new dogs.

Or something to that effect.

@JourneymanGeek you are like a dog with a bone about these dog sayings.

@Mithical maybe we should let sleeping dogs lie

Andreas moved to Codidact

Lie down, @M.A.R. You’ve stood up enough today.

Mithical

1:12 PM

@M.A.R. No. Dogs, even when asleep, are still bound to the truth.

Andreas moved to Codidact

Pffff, dogs… You all need cats.

Journeyman Geek

Andreas moved to Codidact

@JourneymanGeek Cat with a dog’s face.

SPArcheon - on strike

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact there you are, wish granted.

Journeyman Geek

hah, he was quite doggy

Andreas moved to Codidact

1:16 PM

@SPArcheon-onstrike Impostors. Eject!

SPArcheon - on strike

1:36 PM

Wonder what his special talent is...

Elements In Space

stealing diamonds

SPArcheon - on strike

cooking diamonds.

of the Lucy in the Sky variety.

Elements In Space

I thought that was Dr. Caballeron (in disguise)

Oh right, that’s a Heisenberg hat.

The blue chips.

WW

Shadow Wizard

1:55 PM

@rene can you please bring Kenny back to Den? Looks like he decided to take a vacation. D:

Thanks!

SPArcheon - on strike

3:01 PM

@JourneymanGeek I see you deleted your answer. I don't know if this is a consequence of my edit to the question title

Journeyman Geek

and the question as a whole

it didn't feel like it really answered the question in its current form

SPArcheon - on strike

I don't see how the revision changes "changed the question as a whole" but I do see how the original title may have looked like the "ethical" call was a judgment to their action while all I always meant was asking how they can make any violation claim NOT look like a made up "trust me bro" campaign since I don't see any reasonable way to prove them right.

Sorry about that

Journeyman Geek

3:16 PM

I mean, I'm not fussing about it

It didn't answer the question in its current state, I wasn't happy with it

Journeyman Geek

10:55 PM

→ 23 messages moved to Chimney

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