Tavern on the Meta

Andreas condemns Israel

02:25

Well, this one sucks. 99 to Kamala, 177 to Donald, as of yet. Now I can't get a good night's sleep. :(

Journeyman Geek

04:37

→ 16 messages moved to Chimney

@AndreascondemnsIsrael solution- use a bidet :D

Journeyman Geek

07:12

→ 3 messages moved to Chimney

Tinkeringbell

07:37

@AndreascondemnsIsrael the trick is to not look at the news before sleep on such days ;)

Journeyman Geek

08:26

the trick is to not look at the news at all :D

Tinkeringbell

That's always best but then you miss the 'good' news (you know, the ones where the orphan crusher machine is turned off for two minutes because someone paid a huge effort/amount of money) too

VLAZ

But can the economy take the shut down of the orphan crusher, even if temporary?

cocomac

@Tinkeringbell I totally did that and definitely didn't follow the news instead of going to bed (/s)

Tinkeringbell

I slept like a charm.

Thing my parent's taught me as a little kid: Things will happen anyway and lying awake waiting for them is only making it feel like it takes much longer before it happens.

Granted, that was for birthdays, but it also works awesomely for anything the US may do.

@VLAZ Of course not. That's why those groceries are so expensive!

VLAZ

Time to chuck more orphans in the crusher, then!

Tinkeringbell

08:41

Nah. I'll just keep buying the expensive groceries and feel good about having saved an orphan.

(the orphan in this case being a shareholder of a multibillion company)

VLAZ

Poor Bruce Wayne. Lost his parents at an early age. Now has to rely on the generosity of strangers to buy his 7th yacht.

Tinkeringbell

In other less depressing news...... Nope, I'm empty XD

Oh! I made stir-fried pineapple rice again last night and it was goooood :D

And it seems I'm integrating into this neighborhood far better than I ever expected, I got invited to a surprise coffee-then-drinks-evening at the neighbor's last Monday :D

cocomac

@Tinkeringbell That's good advice, thanks!

Tinkeringbell

@cocomac I'll pass it on to my parents ;)

ꓢPArcheon

09:13

@M.A.R. Thanks that is enough for me. I don't care for either approach, I just wanted to look into the abyss. You know, stare enough and it stares back to you.

Andreas condemns Israel

The abyss is shrouding the world today; it's indeed staring right at you, waiting to absorb every last piece of happiness that exists in you.

Journeyman Geek

09:33

@AndreascondemnsIsrael ahh, see, that's my secret. I'm always depressed

Andreas condemns Israel

@JourneymanGeek Well, I just lost my will to live, again, today, so I guess we're two. Welcome back, fascism! The people have spoken! They wanted you back!

ꓢPArcheon

@AndreascondemnsIsrael well, you climb the abyss spire by going down so...

Andreas condemns Israel

@ꓢPArcheon There is no way back now.

Journeyman Geek

09:50

tbf, we're yet to see how bad things will get this time

Shadow Wizard

BLTN!

sigh

22 hours ago, 37 minutes total – 9 messages, 7 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 12 secs ago by Shadow Wizard

@Slate will you edit the post to reflect it's done?

VLAZ

11:13

gg elections...

Elements In Space

boo

Shadow Wizard

@VLAZ w00t

Elements In Space

boo

Shadow Wizard

Anyone's happy about that? Sad?

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizard It would've been better for the European economy if Harris had won, I was told. I wouldn't call it happy or sad, just... it's not the best outcome from an economy-in-this-country perspective.

Shadow Wizard

11:21

ah Smokey reported wrong post, which also happens to be spam. LOL

so why not here???

sigh

ah

> Reason weight: 1

Only the username was suspicious, not content.

Andreas condemns Israel

11:35

2 hours ago, by Andreas condemns Israel

@JourneymanGeek Well, I just lost my will to live, again, today, so I guess we're two. Welcome back, fascism! The people have spoken! They wanted you back!

2 hours ago, by Andreas condemns Israel

The abyss is shrouding the world today; it's indeed staring right at you, waiting to absorb every last piece of happiness that exists in you.

Does that answer your question?

Shadow Wizard

@AndreascondemnsIsrael ah, so cheerful. :D

@AndreascondemnsIsrael a bit. ;)

Journeyman Geek

13:07

→ 3 messages moved to Chimney

Spevacus

13:25

Mannnn my country is so wild

Tinkeringbell

Oh hi. Welcome to the Tavern. Drinks are free today.

8

You'll need it.

Spevacus

Grumble grumble

Thanks

Elements In Space

@Spevacus I guess you have Project 2025 to look forward to.

VLAZ

@ElementsInSpace "But I haven't watched the previous 2024 episodes. I'll be totally lost!"

Shadow Wizard

@Spevacus Wild Wild USA?

Tinkeringbell

13:37

@Spevacus It's all I have to offer at the moment... can't really do anything else!

Elements In Space

Shadow Wizard

@ElementsInSpace cheers for.. whom? ;)

Elements In Space

to drown the sorrows

Shadow Wizard

ah, AI is so naive!

:-D

VLAZ

Was the prompt "Kamala Harris and Donald trump totally hold glasses like real humans do"?

Tinkeringbell

14:23

@VLAZ It at least got Trump's two-handed glass-holding tactic right ;)

VLAZ

I'm honestly more impressed by Kamala's technique. It's intense

Tinkeringbell

I've just tried that... it's possible ;)

Weird, but possible :P

Shadow Wizard

@VLAZ dunno, it was ready-made with Google search. :D

VLAZ

@Tinkeringbell To be fair to Kamala, she's apparently drinking beer in weirdly short glass. I think Trunp is trying to measure just how small it is. It's probably harder with a real beer glass - half a litre. Harder still with the full litre ones, those are a challenge even by using the handle (properly).

Tinkeringbell

Depends on your definition of 'real beer glass' yeah. Many places here will serve you 25cl or 33cl in a 'real beer glass'. Perfectly doable (though I tried it with some water in a similar glass ;) )

VLAZ

14:31

Fake ~~news~~ beer!

Journeyman Geek

huh. I use one of those ikea beer glasses as a water glass. I can manage that one handed full

VLAZ

The litre ones? I mean, they are heavy even empty.

Also, not really impossible to lift. But can be a challenge.

Mostly it's just killing my wrist after a while. So, I end up having to support the glass with a second hand just to make sure it doesn't slip from my other hand.

Shadow Wizard

@VLAZ lol

I used to have those at home long years ago, not sure what happened to them. lol

Tinkeringbell

@VLAZ Probably half a litre: ikea.com/nl/nl/p/lodrat-bierglas-helder-glas-50209337

Journeyman Geek

14:47

oh not that one

the bigger one

ikea.com/sg/en/p/mjoed-beer-tankard-clear-glass-40179604

60cl?

Tinkeringbell

15:02

AH, the tea glass :D

Slate

15:13

@ShadowWizard eeeeeh I don't feeeeel like it

Really I don't want to clutter it with a changelog, particularly when the change is described clearly and executed exactly as described

(and doesn't actually change anything until it's used - neither tag has questions anywhere on the network)

Spevacus

Oh didn't we have a couple candidates for -wontfix

Slate

I'd listed a couple that already had outcome tags I think. I don't plan to go back and recategorize old issues

Spevacus

Roger. Also, shouldn't wontfix have a tag wiki?

Slate

But if there are any that would be helped by being moved over I don't have an issue with it

oh probably

(just like, fix what you think needs fixing, don't let me stop you etc etc)

Spevacus

I can't think of any big ones off the top of my head at the moment but... It's Meta. Surely some ancient thing will get bumped at some point.

Slate

15:20

I'm sure at least one person is going to flag each and every [bug] + [status-declined] post for you to review

;)

Spevacus

Yessss... Feed my "Flags handled" stat.

Tinkeringbell

@Slate Don't give them ideas

Slate

burning flags at the altar as a sort of necromantic tithe or libation

Journeyman Geek

lol, flagged handled stats are important ._.

Slate

Hmm, probably all of these status tag wikis are going to need to be revised. I'll drop an excerpt in for [status-wontfix] because that's fast and easy and I'll probably come back to fixing the others later

Can non-mods suggest and approve edits to wikis for mod-only tags?

Spevacus

15:24

Pretty sure.

Slate

good, good. Maybe if I am lazy enough someone will do it for me

Spevacus

20kers can unilaterally edit 'em too. The rev history on them is likely largely Glorfindel and Sonic, but

Journeyman Geek

if they can't uhh... make up a process? :D Do a meta post?

Slate

"will no one rid me of this meddlesome {empty tag wiki}"

Journeyman Geek

@Slate I'm pretty sure I'm for "if you make a tag, you're responsible for wiking it" :D

Slate

15:26

What happened to the spirit of a community-curated site, JG!? Can't I make at least a little mess every once in a while!?

Spevacus

Not in today's economy.

Slate

Sad news indeed.

Journeyman Geek

@Slate Well, usually its the community that leaves it tags poor, and naked, shivering in the cold :D

Slate

This metaphor has its limits, and those limits are here. Lol.

Journeyman Geek

I guess it does

anyway, I think the stats-foo tags would be wikied quite quick

there are likely to be pedantic arguements over its nature too :D

Slate

15:32

I hope so. I'd never pass up an opportunity to inject confusion into an ongoing conversation

Spevacus

FWIW idk what tool you guys have for it but a change to status-wontfix's tag wiki would need echoed across the network's child metas

Slate

We don't really have tools for that

I mean it's our database, we can do what we want, but it'll take a dev

Spevacus

How does a new site's meta register what the base status tag wikis should be when they're created?

Oh, I see

Slate

I think that it's hard-coded into the site setup scripts

Could be mistaken. We haven't stood up a site in a while

Journeyman Geek

and its easier to do something once than to fix stuff once its already up

Slate

15:38

(part of me wants to say that it shouldn't be propagated until community's had a pass at it anyway)

Andreas condemns Israel

@Slate Sure

Journeyman Geek

@Slate on the other hand - to an extent, its now a set of tags used entirely by staff, so to an extent you know best when they are used, and if those uses need to evolve

Slate

I mean, yeah

Spevacus

Do any other status tag changes have an effect on your guys' internal systems aside from status-review?

Reason for the question is because I don't want oddball changes to muck with your guys' stuff

Slate

Sort of. There have been some changes, haven't discussed them yet, probably will soon

Journeyman Geek

15:43

@Spevacus if all else fails, there's the scream test :D

Shadow Wizard

@Slate had a pass? Suppose some won't like it, will it make a difference?

Slate

dunno what you mean

Shadow Wizard

Can't see any way it can really break anything.

@Slate ah, thought you mean giving feedback by "community's had a pass at it" but on second read, you mean just to see that it doesn't cause any problems when used?

Slate

@Spevacus [status-review] is the only tag that has a directly mechanical effect, which is to copy the post and its link over to Jira where the CM team triages it out to the appropriate handling team. But [status-review], [status-planned], and [status-deferred] have quantified measurement attached to them. Buuuut... it's hard to imagine a situation where changing a tag would screw that up, unless it ended up in the wrong state.

Andreas condemns Israel

@Spevacus If your boss says it's fine, it should be fine.

Slate

15:45

Like if you went [status-review] -> [status-deferred] by mistake -> [status-planned] correctly, it would be fine. tl;dr I guess it could have an impact but you don't need to worry about it

Spevacus

@ShadowWizard Slate means, prior to making tag wiki changes apply across the network for the new tag, she wants the community to have an opportunity to make changes to it/improve it.

Journeyman Geek

@Slate while mechanically we can change those, the other status flags are a black box from the mod end

Slate

@ShadowWizard oh, no. on the tag wiki copy

Shadow Wizard

@Slate ah.

Slate

@JourneymanGeek this system shouldn't really require mods to pay attention to what's going on behind the curtain, except insofar as "[status-review] makes a Jira ticket" is already common knowledge

Journeyman Geek

15:47

yup, but also means there's no reason for us to retag

status-complete's technically the only one that's a bit of a bother

Slate

@JourneymanGeek yeah, generally not unless correcting an error or something. I won't claim to predict all use cases

[status-completed] just means someone did work on it. which, yeah, to be fair, someone has to do work on it

Journeyman Geek

and felt the work was sufficient to someone's standard

(I might somehow still be a little annoyed over retag flags :D)

Spevacus

:^)

We've got exactly one outstanding and it's for status-review on an old post. None of us wanna touch it.

Which probably means it should be declined... But... Bleh.

Journeyman Geek

Well, technically, you'd base it off the roadmap

Shadow Wizard

@Spevacus so it means that technically, mods can decide to decline any bug report or feature request just by not giving it status-review?

Slate

15:54

not really

Spevacus

It's not like staff don't lurk on Meta.

Slate

^. declining a flag to [status-review] something doesn't work like a pocket veto

Shadow Wizard

Technically - chance staff will bump over old bug report are very slim, and staff don't handle flags unless mods ask them to. No?

So in essence, if bug will never get into review, it's same as declining it.

Spevacus

Staff with mod powers see the flags we do, they just have no reason to go looking for them unless they're Slate. They see flags surface when they open a post that has outstanding flags.

Slate

I also sort of suspect you may be underestimating how much of Meta we read

Shadow Wizard

15:57

Well guess if one really wants an old bug to be at least under review, and flag is rejected, they can still start a meta discussion about it.

Slate

For clarity's sake I'm more than happy to lean on mod judgment for a lot of this stuff, but that's not the same as saying "no one's reading Meta"

So like, we absolutely can and do pick up stuff that wasn't flagged, and mods do drop posts into [status-review] when they're not flagged

It's definitely a weak point of this system that there's not a clear systematic chain of ownership from moment of post creation, but... one problem at a time

Shadow Wizard

@Slate but define "we" - who's on the team that read meta?

Andreas condemns Israel

@ShadowWizard Angels

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard I think its more 'it gives it a better chance of being in the system' - but its a bit more like a lottery ticket (you could win) than a sure chance of things getting through

Shadow Wizard

@AndreascondemnsIsrael with white wings? ;)

Andreas condemns Israel

15:58

@ShadowWizard Pink.

Shadow Wizard

@AndreascondemnsIsrael still pink after reading meta? Impressive.

Andreas condemns Israel

@ShadowWizard Blood red.

Slate

that question feels like a trap lol

Journeyman Geek

@Slate Well I'd say it supports a certain point of view, and a certain set of expectations...

(so yes? But its a slightly friendly trap)

Slate

don't do this to me jg, lol

Andreas condemns Israel

16:00

Be more concrete?

Journeyman Geek

@AndreascondemnsIsrael I'd say any answer is problematic :D

If staff say they read it, there could be questions of 'why my pet thing gets no love'

if they don't, there's questions of 'why don't they read meta'

Andreas condemns Israel

@JourneymanGeek Donald Trump is the new president of the planet's largest and possibly most influential country. What can possibly be more problematic?

Journeyman Geek

@AndreascondemnsIsrael Oh things can always get worse

Slate

Pretty much that. It's a diagnostic question but the premise is wrong

Spevacus

Any chance of reviving the guidance for what should be escalated using status-review or is it just "Escalate what makes sense/what your community needs/whatever's related to what we've stated we're working on for this quarter on Meta"

Andreas condemns Israel

16:03

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, Marjorie Taylor Greene could be appointed minister.

Slate

It's also that like... taken literally, no one at the company has "read Meta Stack Exchange posts" in their job description. There are people who read MSE.

Shadow Wizard

@Slate no trap, just curious about this list:

173

A: Who is on the Community Management Team, and what does it do?

Who is on the Community Management Team? Here is the list of people who make up the Community Management Team (aka CM, CMs), in order of hire date: Name Flair (links to blog or article announcing them) Subteam Title JNat Community Engagement and Enablement Staff Community Manager Cesar ...

Some of those listed I don't see a lot on meta, so that's the motivation for the question.

Andreas condemns Israel

@ShadowWizard I follow the news on American politics, but I don't perform them myself.

Slate

Yeah, I wouldn't expect to see every CM around with high frequency

Shadow Wizard

@Slate sure, my question was if they at least read meta, even if not taking active part. :)

Slate

16:05

Basically all CMs read and interact with Metas on a regular basis. There might be a couple exceptions for people whose jobs focus more on project work and there is natural fluctuation in the amount of attention posts on Meta will get. There is also no guarantee that every post gets read.

2

But like, familiar with the rough shape of happenings? Sees posts and processes their contents? Yeah, absolutely

Shadow Wizard

Fair. I think. :)

Well think you deserve something for all the hard work here!

!!/coffee Slate

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard brews a cup of Americano for @Slate

Slate

ah, an americano for post-election day. classic

Spevacus

LOL

Andreas condemns Israel

Red edition.

Shadow Wizard

16:07

@Slate I suspect Smokey has hidden AI powers.

!!/blame worldwide mess

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard It's VLAZ's fault.

Shadow Wizard

See? It knows.

:-D

Journeyman Geek

@Spevacus this could be a meta post :D

(I THINK there is one but ehhh)

Spevacus

If there is you probably wrote it

Journeyman Geek

naw

39

Q: Please bring back the Community Roadmap posts

When I began work on the now defunct Community Leadership Team in early 2020, one of our early initiatives was to share details on the work being done for the community from both Community and Engineering teams. This was done in the form of Community Roadmap blog posts, each of which had an accom...

@Spevacus I'm prolific but surprisingly, people either beat me to stuff :D

Slate

16:10

@Spevacus oh, sorry, I processed this and forgot to write a reply. tl;dr: yeah. ts;wm: I don't want to step on @JNat's toes, so put a pin in this for now

Journeyman Geek

I'd argue for statue-reviewing that

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek duh, you can't beat Yaakov.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard I mean, if I was a mod at the time, it would be in my view

Shadow Wizard

oops!

lol edited

Spevacus

I think these posts are kinda filling the void for the roadmap posts

Journeyman Geek

16:11

Right now, short term, my focus is on the fallout from the genAI stuff

if things stablise, there's the usual old stuff to push for, but right now, I'm not terribly hopeful on those things

Sometimes it needs to get worse before it gets better? :D

Shadow Wizard

I've read today that Python became the most popular on GitHub due to it being used for GenAI projects.

And mostly from people in India.

Gold Diggers, 2024.

Journeyman Geek

Not very surprised

I wouldn't call it gold digging

Shadow Wizard

Why? You work hard, you might get rich as result.

Journeyman Geek

Just that a lot of that sort of work is there, and they probably used java before

Shadow Wizard

Need some skill, and lots of luck.

Journeyman Geek

16:14

no one who digs gold gets rich

Its the people who sell ~~gpus~~ shovels

Spevacus

The push to put AI in places I don't feel it belongs makes me annoyed. I'll continue to express my annoyance with it. But at the end of the day it seems it's here to stay, so bleh. I'm hoping that side-along to that AI shtuff other pubplat changes make their way in that the community's wanted. The Community Asks sprints have been neat. It seems like a good few old requests were addressed. Better late than never.

Slate

it's probably true but I dunno if I'd personally consider it news

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek some do, if they found big chunks.

Spevacus

@Slate Also: Roger that. Cheers :)

Journeyman Geek

@Spevacus eh, to me it feels like a reversion to focusing on anything but pub plat. I'm also convinced its a bubble

I'm chill with SE making money out of it, but some of these things have an adverse effect on well, the people who probably care the most about the network

Andreas condemns Israel

16:16

Again?!

God, this conversation never ends.

Journeyman Geek

Well yes, people talk in a chatroom

Spevacus

I think the popularity of AI is assuredly a bubble, but I'm definitely in agreement with SO that AI is here to stay (in the world) and it's only going to get better. Adapting to that has to happen. It's just... I'd prefer that said adaptation didn't include "Put AI in the Ask Question page".

Andreas condemns Israel

@Spevacus Yeah, I feel the same about roads. The neverending push to put more and more roads in nature really makes me annoyed.

Journeyman Geek

@Spevacus I guess my primary issues are 1) community unhappiness 2) lots of wasted effort on trying to shoehorn in halfbaked products

But some aspects of 1) is long running

Spevacus

Lately, SO has been pushing out experiments or new experiences on SO that are Minimum Viable Products. I can only reach the conclusion that the feedback they get as a result of those MVPs not being up to snuff is... Expected. Which begs the question: Why not toss them back in the oven for a bit longer and come back with something where the expected feedback looks a bit more positive?

Andreas condemns Israel

16:20

@Spevacus I thought they said it wasn't going to be generative AI, last time I asked. They lied to me?

Spevacus

It looks like Gemini's powering that experiment.

Andreas condemns Israel

Well, that's what it says in the post, so...

Journeyman Geek

@Spevacus The well's kinda poisoned there

I'm pretty sure if they came up with something that would entirely respect your input and walk you through a perfect answer, people would be unhappy. And that's not really what we get

On the other hand, its a pretty hard sell to an outside investor to go "we need to hire and retain staff for longer periods of time, and have them do stuff that dosen't directly impact the bottom line, and we're not sure if its too late for it to work"

I'd also guess that in a year or so of pushing genAI... there's been no good product fits

assuming this is coming from above, or prosus, well... there's probably questions

Andreas condemns Israel

Why would I invest in a company that's so mismanaged it throws away all my money on everything but the reason the company exists in the first place?

Journeyman Geek

I mean, prosus already has

Andreas condemns Israel

16:34

Remind me to avoid Prosus.

VLAZ

@AndreascondemnsIsrael This is your reminder to avoid Prosus.

Andreas condemns Israel

@VLAZ Thanks.

ꓢPArcheon

18:15

@AndreascondemnsIsrael your nightmare....

The New "AI Minecraft" game everyone is talking about right now.

►

Andreas condemns Israel

@ꓢPArcheon Ehm... As an alternative form of drugs, I approve.

ꓢPArcheon

@AndreascondemnsIsrael I mean, I would play this game on a console.

Andreas condemns Israel

@ꓢPArcheon I'll stick to my current Minecraft gameplay...

ꓢPArcheon

This is basically the old LSD Dream Emulator

same level of coherence

First 30 Minutes: LSD: Dream Emulator [PS1]

►

Andreas condemns Israel

I play MC to build, not wander around helplessly...

Jeremy

20:54

@Jeremy oh, it was showing me the progress towards the next instance of the badge. nice

Shadow Wizard

21:12

@Jeremy gold badge, at least?

Andreas condemns Israel

22:52

Gold sledge

M.A.R.

@ShadowWizard oh I'm positively giddy. I can't wait until the next wave of sanctions hits and my transplant drugs become scarce again

Andreas condemns Israel

@M.A.R. Transplant?

Is that like a trans plant?

M.A.R.

@AndreascondemnsIsrael it's a science thing

Andreas condemns Israel

@M.A.R. Wow. I bet the new president of the USA would be astonished.

M.A.R.

@AndreascondemnsIsrael I know, right! The woke agenda can't even leave plants alone

@ShadowWizard sigh

@Spevacus I'm playing Red Dead Redemption right now

Andreas condemns Israel

22:58

@M.A.R. It's called real life, you numbskull.

M.A.R.

Real life is one of those overblown lame dystopias.

Totally unrealistic. And some people have a lot of plot armor.

Boo. 1 out of 5. 2 out of 10.

Andreas condemns Israel

Yeah, it's stupid. We should stop buying in to that braindead storytelling.

@M.A.R. We need to ban woke! Get it out of our schoolkids' books!

From now on, we teach only binary plants.

M.A.R.

Get all the trans plants, ponders, ducers, istors, lators, and fers to trans nistria!

WHO'S WITH ME

Andreas condemns Israel

MAKE BIOLOGY GREAT AGAIN!

M.A.R.

Umbga! Umbga!

V2Blast

23:33

@Spevacus tbh it's kind of due to people having different definitions of "minimum". I agree that certain things could use more time to cook before they're released for public consumption, but to some degree, the team probably wants to include the community earlier in the process rather than waiting until the kinks are all ironed out

sigh

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