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Sonic the Masked Werehog

7:01 PM

@Shog9 What do you think made them change direction to the current course at that time?

Shog9

@fbueckert I think assuming that 2019's SE had the capability of coherent thought is an overly-generous assessment.

7

terdon

@Shog9 please don't apologize. If anyone has earned the right to speak their mind on all things SE, it's you! And in any case, you're not wrong. At all. We are indeed having trouble figuring out what the hell we're for. Turns out everyone had their own idea (everyone in the community, mods included) and it's been hard to sort it out.

fbueckert

@Shog9 For an incoherent company, they did an awful good job at sending that message.

terdon

@fbueckert They sent you the message that they were capable of coherent thought? I... can't say that's the message I received at the time.

Rubiksmoose

@terdon But recently, we've been reinvigorated and are really trying hard to get everything sorted with renewed motivation it seems. And we've already started several projects we've long been talking about.

terdon

7:04 PM

true, true

I also have been completely swamped at work and simply haven't had the brainwidth to deal with much deep thinking about SE.

Rubiksmoose

But yes, I also don't mind constructive criticism of our little project.

terdon

The rest of you have certainly been more active though!

Shog9

@Rubiksmoose still waiting on your answer to my question... ;-)

John Dvorak

@terdon Their actions sorta made sense if explained as having laser focus on short-term monetary gain.

... except the big one of course

Shog9

@fbueckert ever read the "moloch" essay on slatestarcodex?

Rubiksmoose

7:05 PM

@terdon That was me the last couple months honestly, which was part of the reason why I was less involved than I should have been at the start. I'm trying to do my best to be extra involved now though.

terdon

@JohnDvorak Eh. Let's not rehash that one again. Suffice it to say that many of us didn't think any of those made sense even in that short-sighted way. But OK, I'm sure some folks thought so.

fbueckert

@Shog9 Can't say I'm familiar with it.

Mithical

@Shog9 This makes me wonder just how some measure of sanity wound up prevailing.

JNat

@Shog9 it's gone :o

Shog9

@JNat archive.org?

@fbueckert it's worth reading. But, it's very long. So for now, read this instead: lesswrong.com/posts/229FkbLrhat9JLhwQ/…

Mast

7:07 PM

link

Shog9

> Morality causes choices and optimization towards the moral and against the immoral. That interferes with choices and optimization away from the uncomfortable and towards the comfortable. It interferes with choices away from bad for your boss towards good for your boss. Or, in less broken situations and/or with a less cynical perspective, also, from less profitable towards more profitable.

Mast

more link

JNat

@Shog9 very long is an understatement. It also has a lot of stuff not relevant for the discussion :P

Shog9

Mostly vulgar poetry quotes. But, I donno, in some sense that's a lot of its charm.

The shorter one is also less entertaining

terdon

@Shog9 Hey, I have an uncle like that! :P

Shog9

7:09 PM

don't we all... ;-)

terdon

Hell, I fear I am an uncle like that!

What's your take on the new mod agreement, @Shog9? I was really quite pleasantly surprised by it. They took a lot of our requests on board.

Shog9

Pretty sure myself and all of my brothers are shaping up to be that uncle...

terdon

Not perfect, of course, but a damn sight better than the first iteration.

Shog9

I'll write something longer at some point (maybe the weekend); got a lot of work to do first, don't get paid for gabbing here anymore.
But, short answer in two parts:

fbueckert

@Shog9 Thanks for the link! Reading it now.

Shog9

7:13 PM

1. I think the teams - particularly Cat - did an admirable job with the process & rollout. Back in February, this was my benchmark for whether the company could do anything hard, correctly - of course, I didn't consider rolling out reactions to be "hard" at that point, but everything is hard if you're determined enough.

4

2. It still has the bit I care about - the "mods must not be careless or malicious with PII" bit. That, IMHO, is the ONLY important bit in the whole thing; the rest is... A mixture of good, cringey and "meh", but if they'd screwed up the PII bit it'd have been an immediate fail.

Rubiksmoose

@Shog9 I think Thomas and JMG covered most of what I was thinking but I'm still pondering an answer there. I've been writing plenty of metas on my local site of late that have been taking up plenty of my time though.

terdon

Re 1: yes, absolutely. The CMs have been their wonderful selves, but @Catija outdid herself and worked her fingers to the bone for this.

Bryan Krause

@terdon And has probably made herself very vulnerable from various angles for it.

terdon

Re 2: YESH that is indeed the most important bit. On a more personal note, I am also really pleased to see an official statement that mods have certain rights enshrined in the agreement and not only obligations. That there is now a section about what SE promises to do is very important. Most of the things they promise are not that important, but the very existence of the section is a clear indication that this is a two-way agreement.

fbueckert

> In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely.

terdon

7:17 PM

And I really, really appreciate the explicit promise that our PII will be treated with respect and that we won't ever be outed to the press.

fbueckert

That...kinda sums up the situation, it feels like.

Rubiksmoose

@terdon Very much all of what you just said.

Bryan Krause

@Shog9 What do you think of the section on the media? I know it's a bit external to the agreement since it references another policy

Shog9

Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracies is a good one to commit to memory. Both to recognize when you're dealing with a dysfunctional bureaucracy, and... To recognize when you're contributing to one.

@BryanKrause should never have been necessary

terdon

No argument there.

Shog9

7:20 PM

There's no section on company officers actually shooting their own feet off with a shotgun either, but... Gosh, it sure seemed for a bit like that might need to be a rule somewhere.

Bryan Krause

@Shog9 I agree but...isn't that partly the point?

The whole thing is completely unnecessary if you assume everyone operates in good faith and without error

Shog9

I'm saying, if it gets to the point where someone somehow thinks that what is prohibited there is a good idea... All bets are off. They might not do that exact thing, but pretty good chance they'll do something stupid and destructive.

Twenty One Pilots - Chlorine (Lyrics)

►

Bryan Krause

@Shog9 Like dismiss crucial employees without warning?

terdon

I don't think any of us are under any illusions when it comes to the depths SE can sink to. I just see this iteration of the agreement as an indication that they might actually try not to reach those depths. Which is more than I would have expected of them a few months ago.

Shog9

:shrug:

Bryan Krause

7:23 PM

I don't think it's fair to expect an agreement with moderators to fix the core problems we've seen (especially over the past year, and extending further for those who have paid close attention or been near to it)

3

terdon

@BryanKrause I had taken "feet" to mean Shog and Robert in his previous message :)

It certainly works if you take foot to mean the thing you use to move around, get stuff down and support your weight...

Bryan Krause

@terdon Feet meaning those who have to get down in the muck and support everything going on without much fanfare?

terdon

that too

Rubiksmoose

@BryanKrause I was kind of taken aback by how many people I've seen seem to have been hoping it would...

Shog9

This is why I like that essay. We all want a system where, somehow, folks' worst impulses are indulged and yet it all works alright. But... That's not possible. At some point, you need folks' to be working toward something beyond their own self-interest, working together to build something greater... If you lose that, nothing will save you.

terdon

7:25 PM

One of the real wake up calls for me once I started getting more involved was just how low in the pecking order the CMs really are. As users, we thought of them as having awesome powers and influence, and it was a real shock to learn that they're apparently considered easily replaceable drones.

Bryan Krause

@Rubiksmoose I am trying to see the side of those with that position, since I think I've discounted it too much, to the point of being unfairly dismissive. But that was certainly my first reaction

Shog9

@terdon If things are better now, it's because folks are trying to make them better. Not because a system worked, not because everyone suddenly realized it was in their best interest to not live in a house on fire.

terdon

That was a very clear warning bell and indicator that SE doesn't get the community at all.

2

@Shog9 I'm sure folks were always trying. It looks like those who are trying have now been given some agency and that is making a difference. Is that wrong?

I mean, I can't believe that people like you or Jon or the current CMs weren't already trying your damndest.

Shog9

@terdon It... Wasn't always that way. Not that we ever had a LOT of positional power, but... At one time we at least had some representation. When I first started, we talked with Jeff & Joel every week, discussed problems & worked out strategies... It was a long, slow, slide away from that.

terdon

Yeah... I'm currently in my 5th year working at a 5-year old startup. We're now starting to grow and I can sort of imagine how that sort of distancing would happen. Nobody's unimportant in a small team.

Shog9

7:28 PM

@terdon I don't have the visibility to say, really. I hope that, for example, Cat's work on the Agreement, JNat's work on the reinstatement process are recognized and lauded internally. But... Who knows. They might be getting written up for it for all I know.

terdon

sigh...

Bryan Krause

@Shog9 (psst...we're all very fortunate you have the capability, if not the visibility, to share what's on your mind)

Adds a lot of clarity at times to things we can't be clear about otherwise

Mast

@Rubiksmoose What else do you suggest? This is about as good as it's going to get. If it's not good enough, abandon all hope and find a new ship to sail.

It's not pretty, but you got to row with the oars you got.

fbueckert

@Shog9 This is one of the reasons I joined the network in the first place.

Mast

Would you prefer we go for a Pyrrhic victory?

Magisch

7:33 PM

@Shog9 Thats kinda what I wanted and also not

Rubiksmoose

@Mast Maybe I wasn't clear in what I was saying. I like the new agreement. I think it is a vast improvement on the old one and that it doesn't have any major flaws. There's actually probably still room for improvement so I wouldn't quite say good as it;s going to get.

Magisch

I guess I didnt really know what I wanted

Will you be OK or is SE going to be vindictive against you for this?

Rubiksmoose

@Mast What I was trying to say is that I was surprised that there were people who thought the mod agreement would somehow tackle the lack of trust and damage to the relationship in a greater way than I thought was possible in such an agreement.

Mast

@Rubiksmoose It won't. But if you expect a step in the wrong direction yet get one in the right one, it's a heck of a lot better than nothing.

Hence the somewhat positive response I suspect.

Rubiksmoose

@Mast Fully agreed.

terdon

7:37 PM

Indeed. I half-expected I would be presented with an agreement I can't sign. This one, I probably can (although I haven't yet, I want to look at it a little more closely).

Rubiksmoose

@Mast Coming from someone who saw the drafts and all the improvements made along the way I'm actually surprised that the reactions are as negative as they are.

Mast

I saw them too.

Bryan Krause

I often find myself drifting into analogies of relationship counselling. If a spouse A cheats on B, B has lots of rights to feel offended and hurt. But if B decides it's worth another shot, it's not really fair for them to expect A to write a letter of promises undoing their wrongs, since no letter can do so; it's not fair for them to expect A to forever pay back their debts. Ultimately, when trust is broken one has to decide to give it again or not.

Shog9

@Magisch Oh, I'm fine. Thanks to you & a bunch of other people, I was able to avoid signing anything that'd prevent me from sharing my opinions on this stuff (unless they wanna claim foot-gunning was part of their proprietary business strategy or something).

I'm just happy to see things looking up, even a little bit

DavidPostill

@BryanKrause It is, however, fair to expect A to write a letter of acknowledgement of what wrongs they committed, and what they will do going forward to stop it happening again.

3

Shog9

7:42 PM

@Rubiksmoose that's why I'm here: it's hard to grasp the importance without knowing just how bad it started out.

I believe my words upon reading it back in January were, "they want the rest of the mods to quit"

it was so, so overtly insulting

Rubiksmoose

@Mast That was more framing that POV for those that weren't aware of it :)

Bryan Krause

@DavidPostill Agreed, but nothing they write will ever actually stop it from happening; there was an earlier agreement against it that was already breached. You can write "I will not sleep with Greg again" on the chalkboard a million times and yet Greg is still out there and just as attractive as before. Ultimately one has to decide whether it's worth continuing or if the past was too much

Shog9

all the stuff folks are bringing up on MSE right now... There are some good ideas and reasonable objections, but... It's all very civil & collaborative. It would have been a bloodbath if they'd tried to roll it out as it started.

Magisch

What happened then?

Did investors get cold feet?

DavidPostill

@Shog9 Was that an internal draft, or was it ever made public (to mods)?

Mast

7:44 PM

@Shog9 Would you prefer a bloodbath?

Bryan Krause

@Shog9 Strongly agreed.

Shog9

@DavidPostill I only saw the first draft, first week of January. Pretty sure that never made it to the mods; you'd... Remember it.

fbueckert

Not to say there haven't been bloodbaths lately.

Magisch

Where did the change in direction come from? I think I owe some folks an apology, it must have been horror to see people you know were commited breaking and having their trust erode away while being unable to do anything

terdon

@DavidPostill I think we saw some. I know I saw a version that was basically all of the things that we "owe" SE with no indication of reciprocity and no acknowledgement that we're just here to help out. I don't remember if that was on the mod team or in the council though.

Magisch

7:45 PM

and your livelyhood and only way to attempt to make a change is tied to not saying anything

Shog9

@Magisch I think Yaakov deserves a fair bit of credit here for managing to get through to the execs - CMs were crying foul immediately, but nobody gave a shit about that.

Magisch

damn

I hope some sillicon valley execs are aware of how close their investment came to turning into dust

Bryan Krause

@DavidPostill My point is that if you go into it expecting to see a written promise that guarantees cheating won't happen again...you should probably just leave. The acknowledgement, the procedures to avoid won't do it. They might be necessary steps towards healing, but they are not panacea

terdon

But yeah, the first versions were the old, vague agreement plus "moderator obligations to SE". including some horrible things about how we both do not speak for SE and are somehow bound to respect their hierarchy.

Shog9

Probably having a new head of engineering - Teresa - without the, uh, history of protecting the rest of the exec team from criticism... Helped. But, I've no visibility there, so that's pure conjecture.

fbueckert

7:47 PM

@Magisch Not to say it can't still die; it's probably just a couple more debacles away from undoing and destroying what little goodwill is left.

Magisch

I mean

terdon

@Shog9 Some of us had a video chat with her, and I was quite impressed by Teresa. She seemed capable, approachable and most importantly no BS.

Magisch

if what shog said its true (and there is literally no reason to disbelieve it) then they were a couple of days away from taking a step off the ledge

DavidPostill

@BryanKrause Agree with this (first steps towards healing) given that B has decided to give it another shot.

user400654

eh, it would have kept on existing, for at least a while

in one way or another

terdon

7:48 PM

@BryanKrause They're also pointless. Given that the problem is an erosion of trust, there are no words or promises that would help.

Bryan Krause

@fbueckert I do hope they have some sense of how ephemeral this all is... the SE sites could mostly relocate without pain. SO itself is, well...who would have thunk it that technology moves quickly?

terdon

Only actions. And there have been some encouraging actions lately.

Magisch

ive been thinking

assume you're a new exec, how do you salvage something like this?

teresa might be giving it the best shot within the options she has

user400654

👂

Bryan Krause

@terdon I'm not sure about "pointless" but I think it's key to consider the actual utility. A promise that shows you've thought about the other side has some meaning even when it's not binding

fbueckert

7:50 PM

@terdon A public port-mortem would do some real good for transparency. If for no other reason than to allow people to read the signs in the future.

Not that would ever happen; nobody is ever accountable.

Magisch

@fbueckert given what shog said there'S about a 0% of that document getting out ever

Bryan Krause

Some post-mortem capacity is sacrificed when you have a signed legal agreement

terdon

@BryanKrause Well, speaking for myself, I am mighty tired of having SE spokespeople tell me "we get it, it was wrong, it won't happen again" only to have it happen again a few weeks down the line. I simply don't put much store in what they say anymore.

4

Magisch

I kind of wanted to know what was inside, because I wanted closure on how bad it was and what pulled the cart around a bit, but

terdon

So no words would have been enough. The only way forward is consistent improvement evidenced by acting decently for a long period of time.

fbueckert

7:51 PM

@BryanKrause Sure. And it's not a valid excuse. It's deflecting the issue and hiding behind something else.

terdon

@fbueckert I don't know that I want one, to be honest. I do know that the person directly responsible for the Monica Insufficiency has left the company. I don't really need to know much more. I don't see how it would help.

Bryan Krause

@terdon I was really upset when they changed the downvote (and upvote I think? downvote is what bugged me...) tooltips, and yet...they admitted a screw up and reverted it. So...that buys a bit from me.

fbueckert

@terdon For the most part, I'm not sure I want one, either.

terdon

Unless you mean a post-mortem of the processes and failures that got us to that point without mentioning specific people. That might be helpful.

fbueckert

What I do know is that I want an apology. Straight and sincere. From someone in leadership.

4

terdon

7:53 PM

@BryanKrause yes. That was another pleasant surprise.

fbueckert

I'm not sure I'm aware of who was responsible for the Monica debacle.

Rubiksmoose

@terdon The literal only way we are ever even possibly getting back to the old kind of trust is having SE act consistently for a long-time in a way that backs up their dedication to respecting, listening to, and improving the community.

fbueckert

Not that throwing around blame is productive, but it'd be nice to at least know that's not gonna be repeated.

DavidPostill

@BryanKrause The question is how far up the chain did the initial suggestion come from? That makes a big difference as to how easy it is (would be) to reverse.

Journeyman Geek

@DavidPostill Unlikely we'll ever know

DavidPostill

8:01 PM

10 hours ago, by terdon

@Magisch We know it was a decision by David Fullerton (this has been made public in another forum) and David is no longer here.

Bryan Krause

@DavidPostill I'm choosing to believe the story it was fairly low-level and considered to be a copy issue, and that the surprise that it caused a problem was genuine. To me that's a pretty human explanation, I see similar mistakes all the time in my own field of professionals in a different area

Journeyman Geek

Its 4 am, and I use that excuse a lot...

But wasn't that the one that leaked?

Rubiksmoose

@JourneymanGeek Wasn't what the one that leaked?

Journeyman Geek

@Rubiksmoose oh, the reasoning on the upvote change

broadly, someone leaked it on reddit from the mod team, and it kept getting posted on meta despite us asking people not to

Shog9

this is... a seductive trap, IMHO. We all want control of our own future, the knowledge that allows us to predict it in a way that effectively grants control. But... the very things that made this all so destructive suggest that it won't be repeated, not exactly, not by exactly the same people.
It'll be something else...

Rubiksmoose

8:11 PM

@JourneymanGeek Ah yes, I think they may have been referring to the more recent tooltip change.

fbueckert

@Shog9 Everyone comes up with new and interesting ways to shotgun their foot off.

Shog9

yep

Journeyman Geek

@fbueckert I think a key thing we agree on is keeping people from doing that

Bryan Krause

@Shog9 Dammit I felt comforted and then you Shyamalan'd me in the last sentence to be afraid again

fbueckert

@JourneymanGeek I'd love to keep people from doing that.

But I'm not confident we can do that.

And that's the crux of my indecision.

Journeyman Geek

8:13 PM

@fbueckert well we can try

the bleeding hasn't stopped from the last few times either

fbueckert

Doesn't help when there's additional self inflicted wounds.

Journeyman Geek

yup

Shog9

I'm... trying to be positive here! But, yeah - you can prepare forever to fight the last war & still lose the next. If you wanna prevail, you gotta look at what's going on now.

fbueckert

@Shog9 I'm not even sure I want to fight the next war.

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 erf. the city's still in ruins from the last one

Shog9

8:15 PM

you will, whether you want to or not. You just won't know when or how or against whom

Nobody's gonna be like, "Hey, let's publicly humiliate a popular Jewish moderator during the high holy season... Again!"

I'm pretty confident that mistake has played out.

That does not in any way preclude future mistakes.

fbueckert

Oh, no, I'm not saying it does.

I'm saying I might not be around to see it.

Shog9

well... You're here now. Whatever finally heralds your departure, it'll be that

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 tbh, the damage and fall out from there for all parties involved is still ongoing

and there's a lot of smouldering bridges

Bryan Krause

@Shog9 Eh...for a lot of people, the thing that heralded their departure was a community that thinks using their pronouns is an affront.

Journeyman Geek

and Monica's removal in the manner it was done was kind of a symptom of a deeper malaise, as is/was the tendancy to shed CMs every time they restructured

as was well, the plan to move off meta (and I think the internal politics involved must have been dreadful)

Shog9

8:25 PM

@JourneymanGeek well the good news there is, only 4 CMs left to shed! Pure attrition will eliminate the issue in short order if nothing else.

2

Journeyman Geek

I donno if letting meta burn to the ground was intentional or not - but that was the reason I came back as a mod, cause an extra pair of hands on the bucket.

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek It was a very welcome pair of hands :)

2

Shog9

I'll... Refer back to Moloch on that question

Tinkeringbell

Dunno if I ever said that out loud.

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 There's folks pushing for me, if they're heard. I tend to do it privately simply cause I was/did/might apply and it feels wrong to push for it if I am interested

@Tinkeringbell I got the impression

Tinkeringbell

8:27 PM

@JourneymanGeek well now it's black on white then ;) you can print it out and hang it on the fridge

Journeyman Geek

8:38 PM

@Shog9 that's a condition that IMO needs fixing

Catija

@Shog9 Do we each get to pick a different color, one for each wall?

Shog9

Heh. Nope, all Monty's favorite color

Catija

Brown?

Shog9

twitter.com/tinkertim/status/695272009131888640

Catija

Ah. I remember my mom's experience as an Air Force architect, she'd often quote "You can have it any color you want, as long as it's brown".

Journeyman Geek

8:43 PM

@Catija not institutional hospital puke green?

Catija

Nah. Buildings on base are pretty uniformly brown. She even made a color wheel to choose from. Every section was the same shade of brown.

DavidPostill

Mint green paint used to be a common paint colour in lunatic asylums ...

> There was a Victorian boom in asylum construction with it’s related color palettes and a belief in the curative effects of the color green. Green is associated with springtime, grass, leaves, outdoors, all that. Victorians associated outdoor activities with health.

Shog9

...wasn't it also just full of arsenic or something?

Journeyman Geek

Nothing says nature like slow death.

Catija

@Shog9 You trying to give green a bad name?

Shog9

8:52 PM

> In the 19th century, the toxicity of arsenic compounds was not readily known. Nineteenth-century journals contained reports of children wasting away in bright green rooms, of ladies in green dresses swooning and newspaper printers being overcome by arsenic vapors. There is one example of an acute poisoning of children attending a Christmas party where dyed candles were burned.

Scheele's Green

Scheele's Green, also called Schloss Green, is chemically a cupric hydrogen arsenite (also called copper arsenite or acidic copper arsenite), CuHAsO3. It is chemically related to Paris Green. It is a yellowish-green pigment which in the past was used in some paints, but has since fallen out of use because of its toxicity and the instability of its color in the presence of sulfides and various chemical pollutants. Scheele's Green was invented in 1775 by Carl Wilhelm Scheele. By the end of the 19th century, it had virtually replaced the older green pigments based on copper carbonate. == Pre...

DavidPostill

People are still arguing today about whether Arsenic was the cause of death of Napoleon ...

Rob

Off-white is the current color scheme: goldmedalsafetypadding.com/safety-padding-gallery

Shog9

jlericson.com/2020/07/08/reader_mail.html

2

That's worth a read...

Bryan Krause

9:11 PM

Most anything written by twitter.com/jlericson is, but that's a particularly good one, thanks

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