Tavern on the Meta

5:22 PM

Moderating is never that easy: you'll open up a lot of room for rules-lawyering if you do that for every instance of offensive content... At some point you also have to trust people have brains and can think for themselves.

But let me ask you a strange question: You're calling vaxquis a he. Are you 100% sure about that? If you are, I can tell you that makes me even more sure we made the right decision here.

djsmiley2k in darkness

/me does some research

'hasn't been answering questions since 2014'

hmmmm no great loss there.

Tinkeringbell

sigh.

That's a bit of a bad metric too... someone can still e.g. be the person that can be reached in chat to just bounce stuff off of...

djsmiley2k in darkness

well maybe, but that's like saying cars are useful because they can drive you to the beach where you go boating to catch fish

Tinkeringbell

You need the car, the boat, the rod/net.. otherwise you won't catch fish that day ;)

djsmiley2k in darkness

you could walk to the beach, fly to the beach, hop into a canoe to the beach

mising the fact the beach is on fire and the fish have been poisoned

or something

Tinkeringbell

5:35 PM

Oh sure, there's multiple ways to get to the beach... But that doesn't mean the car is useless ;)

Rob

There are only two Wayback captures, the prior one makes me guess that it's a guy. It seems like the deletion falls into the "attack helicopter promotion" category, and simply deleting rather than fixing has been suggested as the best practice. --- They shouldn't have wrote something that needs a warning or deletion, they wound up with the second and not both; that doesn't mean that they were

Tinkeringbell

Some people can't walk, others get claustrophobic in airplanes, and seasick on the canoe ;)

Rob

shortchanged.

djsmiley2k in darkness

@Rob you can go to the rest of the users profile, via SO link

web.archive.org/web/20160410075751/http://stackexchange.com/…

Rob

The one that's now deleted?

djsmiley2k in darkness

5:37 PM

mispaste

Rob

What is there to see?

djsmiley2k in darkness

I don't find it offensive, tho the user seems to have a issue with SE.

Tinkeringbell

Honestly... my advice to third parties here is to stay out of it ;) Nothing good ever comes from putting yourself in the middle of two parties that are both either not free to tell the whole story or just giving their version of events, ending in a he-said-she-said.

vaxquis wasn't suspended, so there's no reason Mark or Rob or dj has to do the chatting for them ;)

3

djsmiley2k in darkness

/me shrugs

welp they gone now 🐲

I just find peoples behaviour amusing

Rob

Isn't that link the same as the one I used ...

user400654

5:39 PM

i don't think there gender is relevant.

djsmiley2k in darkness

@Rob well it's 2015.... so no?

I don't think so

and there's 5 captures, and likely more on each site, if you explore.

When you hate something that much, why would you continue to stick around?

I think people almost enjoy the... friction? It makes them feel.... something?

/me ponders if he should of studied psychology after all, as he doesn't think like a normal person.

Rob

There seems little or no change between the text of the two links, I'm not diffing it on my phone.

Tinkeringbell

@djsmiley2kindarkness There's... a theory that people more and more get a kick out of being a 'victim' or on the victim's side, in sociology. Perhaps study sociology instead of psychology? :P

Or make it multidisciplinary!

Rob

People stick around to help, or complain.

user400654

what I hate is that the place i enjoyed participating in is making changes that I feel are designed to push me away.

djsmiley2k in darkness

5:42 PM

@Tinkeringbell I still think the world is slowly moving to a situation where no one actually 'matters'

and this kind of thing will happen more and more (and more terrorism, and other madness) because it makes people feel like they matter, have purpose, etc.

@user400654 so.... either call it a day, walk away and don't torture yourself

Rob

The squeaky wheel

Tinkeringbell

Hmm. That's a bit different, but might hold some truth... Mark Manson talks about something similar in The Art of not giving a F*ck

djsmiley2k in darkness

or stick around, go "this could be fun" and see where it takes you

Don't set fire to it.

user400654

I rather stick around, poke it with a stick, and watch it squirm

Tinkeringbell

If everyone is special, no one is.

djsmiley2k in darkness

5:44 PM

you don't need to be special, to matter.

Tinkeringbell

@user400654 I'd like to ask why you're feeling pushed away, but since you're on the 'poking stick' path... should I?

user400654

maybe anothr day

Tinkeringbell

Sorry for that triple ping... I promise I don't usually mess up my typing like that!

user400654

allgood

Tinkeringbell

@djsmiley2kindarkness So... 'to matter', what does that mean?

user400654

5:45 PM

got no sound, so it's not annoying

Tinkeringbell

Is it similar to dignity and getting respect? To 'being cool'?

@user400654 Oh good :)

djsmiley2k in darkness

for me? It's feeling a purpose

Knowing if I wasn't here, things wouldn't be going as they are currently

Tinkeringbell

I was thinking for the purpose of this conversation, but that's probably good enough to know your personal definition ;)

djsmiley2k in darkness

for example barry the turtle never would of been rescued, my kids wouldn't learn the things they do. etc.

I can't tell other people, how they matter, it's something we define

πάντα ῥεῖ

LOL veteran vetenarians :D

djsmiley2k in darkness

5:49 PM

problem being is that a lot of people seem to define it based on their consumption of the media etc.

Tinkeringbell

@djsmiley2kindarkness Ah, then we're back at my sociology book... good!

djsmiley2k in darkness

hense why i wonder about some terrorism.

Tinkeringbell

There's a few ways to matter, yeah... You can have gangs, and to matter in such a gang often means being the toughest cookie around, so if someone slights you you're likely to retaliate harsher, to show them who's boss and keep your reputation.

djsmiley2k in darkness

indeed

user400654

essentially... The SO i wanted to participate in valued high quality content above all else. It wasn't about clickbait, or earning points, or any of that mess. It was about helping people. Creating good QA pairs that will last years... which is a rare occurrence.

however... for years now quality has been going down the toilet, and instead of doing something about it, they're embracing it by lowering barriers and making it harder to deal with declining quality. Year after year there's less of us moderating. less great answers being posted. more garbage answers being posted. more duplicates …

Tinkeringbell

5:51 PM

Terrorism might be similar, there's been news articles I've seen of people going to Syria because they were promised stuff that made them feel they mattered, or that mattered to them..

djsmiley2k in darkness

the moment we started the 'everyone wins everything' movement, we started making no one successful at anything.

@user400654 well, the forums are mostly gone now.... so there's no competition :/

not an answer, just an observation

Tinkeringbell

@djsmiley2kindarkness There's the idea that each person matters in their own way. Everyone has a certain amount of natural 'mattering' (dignity) that people can't take away from you with harsh words, or when you're slighted you don't have to retaliate because it's more of a shame on the person that wronged you than it hurt your mattering.

Losing a game wouldn't matter: you're great at other stuff.

djsmiley2k in darkness

@Tinkeringbell but we don't teach this anymore.

in 'general' I mean

instead, everyone's asking the best questions, everyones answers are great!

(just to keep it on the topic of SE).

Rob

Rules of Johannesburg Zoo - no stick poking: - Please do not tease any of our animals or attempt to make them move by throwing stones at them. Do not poke them with sticks or knock on their windows. Animals should be respected the same way you want to be respected.

user400654

essentially... the reason i joined SO was because it felt like a far better way of helping people. but now, more often than people are just giving away fish rather than teaching. The gamification is out of hand.

Tinkeringbell

5:53 PM

It has (according to some theories) been slowly replaced with the idea that some people need more help to matter. And helping those, or being one of those... that's what makes you matter these days. To the point that even cops fake being a victim (like writing 'fucking pig' on their own McDonalds cup, if that story was true).

djsmiley2k in darkness

@Rob that only works when people have self respect...

@Tinkeringbell indeed

we don't celebrate the best of us anymore

instead we say inclusiveiveness is important

Tinkeringbell

Well in a way it is!

djsmiley2k in darkness

and errrr woo. great... everyones mediocr

Tinkeringbell

We should still recognize that each person has their own way of mattering, and that in their way they can add to our communities.

user400654

it is... but i feel it's still more important for people to put forth the effort first before receiving the reward.

djsmiley2k in darkness

5:55 PM

not at the expense of celebrating people being good at things.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@djsmiley2kindarkness How does inclusiveness loose the best? I don't understand your point.

Tinkeringbell

@djsmiley2kindarkness Maybe not. I'm not saying we should strip Jon Skeet of all rep and redistribute it ;)

djsmiley2k in darkness

@πάνταῥεῖ it shouldn't do

but SE's (and most .... peoples? ) implementation ends up saying celebrating one persons achievements is bad because you're not celebrating everyones.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@djsmiley2kindarkness Sure, that is why everyone is moderating based on content here.

user400654

Lol

djsmiley2k in darkness

5:57 PM

@Tinkeringbell why are the blogs about ben who can't program? Why aren't they about how awesome Jon is?

user400654

yeah, that's why people are upvoting garbage.

Rubiksmoose

Holy essays Batman. meta.stackexchange.com/questions/341550/…

djsmiley2k in darkness

@πάνταῥεῖ hahahaha

Tinkeringbell

True too. And I think that's one of the things I've said a few times but... inclusiveness can mean making it easier to put forth the effort. It's a bit like pioneering. Imagine Columbus discovering the way to sail to America. The people that came after had it *slightly* easier already: They had a way to go to.

Nowadays, we have GPS and fast ships or airplanes to go to America. That doesn't mean that just because it's now easy to get there, no one should ever go or no one should ever get attention when telling about their vacation there ;)

djsmiley2k in darkness

@Rubiksmoose i got bored half way down xD

@Tinkeringbell if someone built Columbus's boat now

and sailed

they'd get berated for chopping down trees

Tinkeringbell

5:59 PM

XD not if they get the permit!

djsmiley2k in darkness

Do you think the sailor who rowed the ship deserves as much praise as the navigator?

Tinkeringbell

maybe the bureaucratic hurdles for such a trip have even increased.

Rubiksmoose

@djsmiley2kindarkness I kept waiting for the proposal and then saw how much I had left and gave up.

Rob

@Rubiksmoose I'm not reading all that - but I answered a similar question the other day in a couple of sentences. Comment reply, wait, take if no action, make answer your own or wiki it.

djsmiley2k in darkness

if i answer in comments, it's because I'm not actually sure it's the answer

and I don't want the DV's if it's not

but if it is, I hope the questioner lets me know and I write it up into an answer.

/me shrugs

Tinkeringbell

6:01 PM

@djsmiley2kindarkness I think they both deserve equal amounts of respect, because one wouldn't have been able to do it without the other. Praise is one way of showing that :)

djsmiley2k in darkness

See I don't

physical effort isn't on a par to the knowledge and training it'd take to navigate the seas

Rubiksmoose

@Rob On RPG we have an easier solution: don't answer in the comments. ;) We delete them pretty quickly. (Yes, I'm aware that sites like SO might have trouble adopting it.)

user400654

the only time i answer in a comment is when i'm also voting to close. otherwise... i may occasionally request clarification, or suggest research targets, which can often point out the answer... but i'd hardly call that answering in the comments.

Mark Amery

@Tinkeringbell Nope, I'm not sure if vaxquis is a "he". In fact, I actually caught myself having unthinkingly used "he" and rewrote my message to replace it with "vaxquis" because I wasn't sure, but apparently I missed a "his".

djsmiley2k in darkness

@Tinkeringbell and if you praise them equally, why bother learning the years of training it takes to become a navigator, if I can simply just be a rower and get the same praise?

user400654

6:02 PM

on meta... i have no interest in writing answers, different beast alltogether

Tinkeringbell

@djsmiley2kindarkness Still, I might have the wits to learn how to navigate... but put me on the physical effort and I'd probably have a heart attack in minutes.

@MarkAmery Hmm. Mkay

Mark Amery

Wait, did I just confess to a CoC violation?

I forget what the rules are about pronoun avoidance for people whose pronouns you don't know...

user400654

write as you natually would

is what was said

Rob

Sometimes a quick comment that's a good hint is all one needs, and better than no answer.

Tinkeringbell

@MarkAmery Oooh, suspensions incoming. Don't forget to take that screenshot we talked about yesterday ;)

(you're fine, no worries).

user400654

6:03 PM

and if you are corrected, respect it

easy

djsmiley2k in darkness

@user400654 how long must it be before I'm allowed to forget?

user400654

5 minutes

djsmiley2k in darkness

lol

if that was the rule, trolling got a whole lot eaiser, thanks CoC!

Rob

A millisecond

Mark Amery

@user400654 There's a rule specifically against pronoun avoidance in the FAQ though. But, no staff in the room, so I think I'm safe :P

Tinkeringbell

6:04 PM

@djsmiley2kindarkness Would you get the same praise though? I'd praise a navigator for his knowledge of the stars and his ability to navigate based on that, as that's something I can't do myself. I'd praise the rower for working under harsh conditions and not dropping dead/sticking with it...

user400654

right, but that's not pronoun avoidance

pronoun avoidance is when you're told x prefers y, and you decide to avoid using y

djsmiley2k in darkness

these days? yes

Everyone cheer for the crew! well done them! Woooo.

Rob

They can have shore leave first.

djsmiley2k in darkness

:D

Mark Amery

@user400654 No, what I did (replacing a pronoun with a name because I don't want to use the pronoun) is literally what Monica got fired for advocating, just with a different motive for not wanting to use the pronoun. I have no idea whether the CoC FAQ specifies what motives are forbidden. But it DOES say I'm meant to use "they" when in doubt, and not meant to avoid pronouns by using names, so I'm probably in violation. CBA to check.

user400654

6:06 PM

right, but you don't know what the proper pronoun is

so...

Tinkeringbell

So, that would basically me telling you I'm a woman, then you going 'well, then I won't use any pronouns anymore, because I want to believe everyone here is a guy'. Or just refusing to use any pronouns for me but using them for the guys...

Gender neutral writing can include not using pronouns at all, but it becomes quickly obvious if you're deliberately doing so after being pointed to a mistake you made, for example.

user400654

you're not really avoiding using the "correct" pronoun

or the desired pronoun

djsmiley2k in darkness

but i've always, and always, and always, presumed everyones a dog on the internet...

user400654

well, it says to "prefer" using they, it doesn't mandate it.

(lol)

Mark Amery

Except there's a FAQ-imposed default correct pronoun of "they"

Anyway

Tinkeringbell

6:08 PM

@djsmiley2kindarkness Buuut... I'm clearly a parrot, you're a cactus... and Mark is some hairy potato?

Mark Amery

I'm going to stop arguing the case for my own punishment and shut up :P

user400654

right, but you're not going to be suspended because you instead used "he" as a default. lol

Mark Amery

@Tinkeringbell OI I JUST UNDERSTOOD THIS

THAT'S MAH FACE

Tinkeringbell

@djsmiley2kindarkness ^ Now we can side with Mark and do that thing where, if you side with the less fortunate, you matter more :P

(I'm in a horrible mood, if I push things to far lemme know)

rene

Meh, it is going fine. Keep pushing.

Tinkeringbell

6:13 PM

Is it? Good.. it was starting to feel like a 'zware bevalling' :P

Rubiksmoose

@MarkAmery Not actually true. It expresses a preference. It even says things like he/she are fine.

Rob

Potato?!, maybe the canvas jacket threw you off.

Mark Amery

@Tinkeringbell Google Translate says that means a... "heavy birth"? O_O

Tinkeringbell

@MarkAmery Yeah, more like 'heavy labor' (the birth giving kind). Used for those kinds of chores or nr. 2's that take a bit of effort ;)

Mark Amery

Good lord

Tinkeringbell

6:15 PM

Dutch is such a beautiful language! :D

rene

@Tinkeringbell well, I have been at my own birth. Needs a lot more to call it zwaar ...

meagar

@djsmiley2kindarkness What started this kick? I don't see how "inclusive" is in any way relevant

Mark Amery

@Rubiksmoose Fair enough. I started by cracking a joke and didn't have my facts in a row. I should probably have left it there rather than spewing half-remembered misinformation!

Tinkeringbell

@rene I managed to keep mom busy for a day or two.

meagar

Being inclusive of people, and celebrating achievements based on merit, are entirely separate things

rene

6:17 PM

@Tinkeringbell That is why she loves you so much ;)

Rubiksmoose

@MarkAmery The only reason I called you out was because it is a common misunderstanding (though somewhat reasonable based on how everything went down) :)

Tinkeringbell

@meagar Participation trophies are often argued as necessary because 'they make everyone feel included'. I think those are a good example of how inclusiveness and celebrating merits (only one winner) often overlap to the point where everyone feels mediocre?

@rene Ah, did I mess this whole thing up that far back? Then there's no salvaging this anymore ;)

rene

lol

Mark Amery

@Rubiksmoose No need to justify. I'm happy to be corrected on my facts in any context by any party. :)

meagar

Participation trophies are for... children? Where it is nice for children to all feel included.

Tinkeringbell

6:20 PM

PARTYTIME!

meagar

The concept doesn't really scale past childhood

Tinkeringbell

Hmmm. I don't really agree that it's good for children though, as it sets some false expectations about adult life... and I have seen adults that act like they should get a participation trophy :/

But you're right, as an example/metaphor it doesn't really scale past childhood

I'll try and think of an adult example

πάντα ῥεῖ

An upvote??

> meta.stackexchange.com/questions/341553/…

meagar

@Tinkeringbell I don't know, you might as well argue that Santa is harmful

Some times we do nice things for children and defer the harsh realities of adult life :p

Tinkeringbell

@meagar Hmm. Santa to me leans more towards a prosocial deception than participation trophies do... but perhaps. Over here Santa was the devil's invention anyway when I grew up :P

meagar

6:26 PM

So, I can give you an adult example, for your side of the argument :p

terdon

@meagar There are actually some pretty good arguments in favor of santa being harmful. I'm not convinced one way or the other, myself, but there are good arguments on both sides (santa good and santa bad).

πάντα ῥεῖ

Santa turns out to be dad most of the times ;)

Tinkeringbell

@meagar Sure, please :)

meagar

The last few places I've worked have had a recognition system, where by one employee can "recognize" some other employee(s) for, basically anything.

Then all the recognitions are periodically blasted to the whole company.

Ultimately it meant that "Thanks to Bob for helping me unload the dishwasher" is recognized in the same way as "Congratz to the whole Product team for shipping <6 month long project>"

There was a lot of attempting to foster a culture of recognition, but when this system was used to recognize more and more trivial things, it ultimately became pretty useless.

Rubiksmoose

@meagar That sucks. Getting Bob to unload the dishwasher definitely seems like the harder task. C'mon Bob.

meagar

6:29 PM

I think in most places the people who really get a lot done tend to wind up ignoring such systems :p

Tinkeringbell

Yeah, that's a good one. I've seen it too, where the whole team may have done something, but that one guy that worked a bunch of overtime and figured out that nasty bug didn't get a separate mention...

While he should have!

So instead of giving that guy a big present, the whole team gets a bottle of cheap wine.

meagar

Yeah. Though, hopefully the larger contribution is recognized by managers come compensation-review time

Tinkeringbell

Even the girl that joined just a few months ago and can't write three lines without needing to debug and Google :P

(was me ;) )

meagar

Except, related story, at Shopify there was financial incentive tied to the recognition system :p

That didn't last very long.

Tinkeringbell

@meagar I do hope so... even though I don't really like being people's pet project (there's a few colleagues that I'm sure are just interested in teaching me for the sake of climbing the corporate ladder faster).

At least my company seems good at rewarding exceptional prestations

Rob

6:39 PM

@Tinkeringbell - Under age?, rules.

Tinkeringbell

@Rob Unless they say so black on white... some people use pictures of their kids, after all.

Rob

True, just their recent question on meta ...

Tinkeringbell

Well, I'm still thinking we'll need more than that and a profile picture... And having encountered a pretty successful underage user once, I do hope to never see that again :|

Rob

I'm OK with whatever you decide. Simply mentioning it. I'll bring more to the table next time.

Rubiksmoose

@Rob Generally we don't actively hunt down underage users. If they make themselves obvious... This seems well below that threshold.

Tinkeringbell

6:44 PM

:) I do hope that if they really are that young, they find a good source to teach them programming, and that they'll stick with it ;)

terdon

Even then, all we can do is choose to escalate to CMs.

Underage users is an SE legal issue, not something the mods really get involved in.

Rubiksmoose

^

Tinkeringbell

Yeah, that too

terdon

Repeat after me: The mods do not work for SE. The mods do not work for SE. The mods do not work for SE.

:P

Tinkeringbell

@terdon Ehhh. My mom kinda hammered home that voluntary work is work too :P Because puberty me didn't really value it :)

Rob

6:46 PM

My phone does what they are asking for their program to do, it's not a simple thing.

terdon

@Tinkeringbell I'm not saying we don't do work. I am saying we don't work for SE.

Tinkeringbell

@terdon You emphasized the not, not the for :P

terdon

Also, there's a difference between the phrase "work for" which implies you are employed by someone and the broader term "work" which doesn't require an employee/employer relationship. If you say you work for someone, that means you are employed by them. Usually.

Tinkeringbell

@terdon Thanks for the English lesson :P

terdon

Sorry, can't help it. :/

Tinkeringbell

6:48 PM

Sorry everyone else, I'm afraid I set off the pedant :P

@terdon It's okay, that's what makes teasing you fun ;)

terdon

@Tinkeringbell Hang on, is that the new system? I go off on a pedantic rant and you apologize? I could get used to this!

Rubiksmoose

The mods do not work for SE

Tinkeringbell

@Rubiksmoose That one hurts my brain :( :P

@terdon Only to everyone else!

Rubiksmoose

@Tinkeringbell Glad I could help lol

Rob

The lawyering of which you spoke.

Tinkeringbell

6:51 PM

See :P Moderator life is hard :(

rene

7:38 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ that got edited into shape now.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@rene I've seen that.

rene

just in case ...

Rubiksmoose

@Rob I found the relevant quote accidentally:

> I spotted a user who is underage. What should I do? You don't have to do anything. Users and moderators are not legally responsible for underage users and are under no obligation to report them to us. If out of concern you would like to report it, send us a report via our contact form and we will take action.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@rene The question had a very bad start. Let's see what it's worth it.

Rubiksmoose

@Rubiksmoose (not that it matters)

rene

7:43 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ yeah, I flagged the comments for clean-up.

user400654

🚽

Rob

@Rubiksmoose Thanks.

Ramhound might be correct, about the veteran vegetarian veterinarian migrant:

I thought this question was about vegetarians for some reason — Ramhound 41 mins ago

djsmiley2k in darkness

8:05 PM

@meagar what started it?

well, I'm pretty sure it would of been something stupid when I was about 8 and proved I was better at something than someone else

and been held back in some way, because of that

Anyway, one pertient modment I do remember in my life was at university, a crappy 9am thursday morning (and wednesday night was rock night)

we sit there, lecturer turns up something like 10 minutes late, but they've got some people with them, so oooo this might be interesting

proceed to tell us about how IBM want to include students from all walks of life, etc etc

20 minutes later

"So it's only open to black males, aged 20-25."

user400654

8:45 PM

#inclusive

Stormblessed

4

Q: In-place soft deletion for "accept rate" comments has stopped working

Soft deletions of comments used to have a satisfying feature that the comment vanished when flagged. Although soft deletion still works, a page refresh is required to see the affect. This Data Explorer query can be used to find test candidates. It shows posts where acceptance is mentioned in a...

What’s "soft deletion"?

user400654

probably not a thing anymore

Rubiksmoose

@Stormblessed I've never heard the term before, but I think it might be referring to when a comment is deleted as a result of flags themselves and not mod/author action.

meagar

Soft deletion usually refers to marking a record as deleted

Vs actually removing the record from the database

Stack Overflow soft deletes everything; it's all still present in the database, but it is marked deleted and not displayed on the front-end.

rene

9:02 PM

Based on this comment I'm going for a PR in smokey to have !!/hats countdown to December, 15th 2029 ...