Tavern on the Meta

Some time ago, we announced that certain SE sites will have advertising enabled. This has gone well and we're extremely thankful to everyone for their support and feedback. Because it has been successful so far, we're going to be extending the program to the majority of our graduated sites. Well,...

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek pictures anklebiter geek presenting a chewbone and announcing "I have a bone to pick with this"

Meta Andrew T.

6:36 AM

That's a year ago...

Journeyman Geek

@MetaAndrewT. actually Affliate ads would be the super super curated stuff.

@Magisch as per meta.stackexchange.com/a/317264/135565

> There will also be an escalation procedure so mods can trust that something they think is urgent gets treated by us as urgent.

forest

-14

Q: Would Stack Exchange consider moving away from Google services?

I've been following Google, and their growing pattern of content censorship and manipulation, for a while now. The recent expose by Project Veritas (more to the point, Youtube's/Google's decision to remove the video from their platform) has convinced me to hard-block all sites related to Google, ...

discussion google

lol, this guy is pissed at Google being a CDN for JQuery

Journeyman Geek

\o/

forest

I mean I hate Google as much as anyone else, but jeeze.

Journeyman Geek

Silly thing is folks in china have fairly robust workarounds for that.

Magisch

6:38 AM

is that because of the leaked email from youtube staff

forest

@Magisch When was that?

Magisch

I heard about it yesterday evening

forest

tl;dr?

Magisch

they were internally discussing how they can stop right wing content creators from showing up in people's suggested video feeds, and one employee argued they should make a blanket filter for right wing content

some perjoratives were used wrt. specific content creators

forest

wow

I'm not right wing but seriously, that's messed up.

Magisch

6:40 AM

goal being at least partially to stop a trump re-election in 2020

forest

O_o

"Corrupt guy is running a country. Hey, let's be corrupt back at him!"

Journeyman Geek

shrug I doubt youtube has that much pull

and they'd just make their own video hosting service with blackjack and nazis.

Magisch

I mean it's not a novel concept. Facebook and Twitter and even Reddit have strategies to stop proliferation of right wing content in an automated way

Journeyman Geek

@forest in theory as a private organisation - they're free to do as they like. Also, actual managing of communities seems like something most companies don't get.

See facebook's community management sweatshops.

forest

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good.

You can legally profit off of slave labor. Doesn't make it right.

Magisch

6:42 AM

It's just people are getting all up in arms because it's not really public knowledge they're doing that

Journeyman Geek

On the other hand

what if I don't want right or left wing content?

forest

@Magisch This is why companies need to be better regulated by governments.

Magisch

It's just a facet of the movement to deplatform right wing content in general

Meta Andrew T.

Hey, I've also heard a similar story that YouTube tweaked its algorithm to prevent personal criticism about Captain Marvel and instead preferring "trusted" media content.

forest

...which is ironic because that's normally something the left wants

Journeyman Geek

6:43 AM

@forest I actually sort of disagree....

I actually think that's why a plurality of alternatives is important

Magisch

the idea being that if you convince enough companies to stop offering service to right wing individuals and public figures, being such will become economically untenable and thus the general society will swing left

forest

@JourneymanGeek When a company is as big as Google, manipulating politics is... bad.

It's more than just the natural extension of a small business owner with a sign in his store.

Magisch

one aspect of this is e.g. convincing credit card companies to stop doing business with right wing figures

or how alex jones can't get a paypal account

forest

@Magisch That is really, really messed up.

Journeyman Geek

@forest its more that a single company, or three has the ability to influence politics

And there's some voices that actually ought to be shut down.

forest

6:44 AM

uh

That's something I disagree with more than perhaps anything else.

Voices should never, never be "shut down".

Magisch

I tend to agree with journey

Journeyman Geek

Actually, the term I'd use is blackballed, as the athenians used it.

forest

They should be fought, in public.

Magisch

then again, being too right wing is illegal in my country

for good reason too

forest

@Magisch "Being" too right or doing nasty things associated with the right?

Journeyman Geek

6:45 AM

@forest and sometimes you fight them by telling them they're unwelcome.

Meta Andrew T.

Fight words with words, okay, cool...

forest

@JourneymanGeek All that does is turn them into a martyr and make them more attractive to many.

I get that private companies have the right to delete content they want to delete (even if I disagree), but forcing someone not to say something and violating their free speech is... fascist.

Journeyman Geek

@forest folks who'd idolise them anyway

Magisch

@forest publicly espousing any view that is considered too right wing in e.g social politics or immigration is illegal here.

forest

@Magisch Ah, yeah like Germany's censorship laws. Those are horrible.

Magisch

6:47 AM

Which, coincidentally, is a law that was passed as a requirement for the economic repairs folllowing WW2 by the americans

forest

@JourneymanGeek Not really. I know several German national socialists who are attracted towards conspiracy theories and are motivated primarily by the illegality. After all, "if this is historically correct, then how come it's illegal to say otherwise? Someone's hiding something!"

And it causes people who otherwise wouldn't think much about it to become e.g. holocaust deniers.

Journeyman Geek

@forest they'd choose to believe it even if not

Like..

pizzagate.

Some people are just that dumb

forest

Pizzagate is just a small conspiracy by some of the crazier people.

I mean yeah, those people will always believe weird shit.

But when you make a view illegal, you're being fascist.

Anyone who has listened to history knows that it causes the pendulum to swing faster.

Magisch

it's the age old paradoxon. To maintain a tolerant society, you cannot tolerate intolerance

Journeyman Geek

I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express.

forest

6:49 AM

@JourneymanGeek I'm talking about the illegality, not private companies' policies.

Journeyman Geek

Sorry about the slightly strong language

forest

Although I do take objection to that XKCD comic because it's a strawman.

Journeyman Geek

@forest google isn't a government

forest

Most people who object to e.g. Google censorship do not claim it's illegal.

In fact, I haven't met one person who has.

Magisch

if you disagree with that kind of stuff, you're on the wrong platform even here

forest

6:50 AM

That comic is implying that they are saying that it's bad because it's illegal, which of course isn't true. Just because something's legal does not mean it's right or cannot be criticized.

Magisch

SE is very much a progressive company

Journeyman Geek

As for government censorship? Not a fan. But I also know governments can mess with you in other ways.

forest

@Magisch I'm a leftist myself.

@JourneymanGeek I'm sure you know I'm not a fan of most governments either. :P

Journeyman Geek

On the other hand

Running a civil society without rules is hard

forest

Oh sure, rules are important.

But any rule restricting speech is fascist.

Because in 50 years, it will swing just as hard the other direction.

Journeyman Geek

6:51 AM

The trick is balancing between giving folks room to express themselves, and trying to stop people from hurting themselves or others.

forest

@JourneymanGeek Hurting themselves and others is an act.

If someone punches someone in the face, that is not speech. That is assault.

Journeyman Geek

Words can hurt, or incite

Meta Andrew T.

This is Politics.SE HNQ on Free Speech all over again...

Journeyman Geek

No one randomly punches folks in the face unless they're crazy

forest

Sure, and saying something mean to someone and not leaving them alone is harassment.

Magisch

6:52 AM

one thing that is concerning/scary is that you need maybe 10 companies on boat and you can seriously shape public opinion into almost anything you want

Journeyman Geek

Or throws milkshakes I suppose.

forest

@Magisch The NSA has plenty of people who influence companies to do that. :P

If you read the leaks, it discussed that frequently.

Journeyman Geek

Someone went "this person is bad enough , or a danger to society and we need to do something about it"

Sometimes its someone who we actually dislike enough to go "HA HA"

sometimes actual people get hurt

forest

People get hurt when the political divide is forced further open.

In America at least, the left is more left and the right is more right than ever before.

And the pendulum is swinging harder and harder.

Magisch

it's scary easy to end in an ideological bubble

Meta Andrew T.

6:54 AM

People get hurt anytime, whatever it is

forest

Just waiting to fly back in the opposite direction.

Journeyman Geek

I just want to build computers and make silly dog jokes.

Magisch

my twitter is full of very very progressive voices while on reddit it's exactly the opposite

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch my twitter is a bunch of geeks

Magisch

if someone just sees one or the other it's understandable how you might get polarized hard

forest

6:54 AM

I think that's harmful.

Meta Andrew T.

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, this Tavern is not the Tavern I know and love

forest

It creates a powerful echo chamber.

Journeyman Geek

Sure a few of the people who're actually famous are a bit political...

forest

That's a problem whether it's right or left (or whatever).

Magisch

If I didn't know how the sausage is made I might be led to believe that all non-left people are fringe lunatics

Journeyman Geek

6:55 AM

@forest on the other hand

Magisch

vice versa too, obviously

forest

This is why I support projects like Tor, which make free speech possible.

Journeyman Geek

not everyone wants to talk politics and free speech all the time .... ;p

Mithrandir

@JourneymanGeek I'll have you know that I'm a nerd, not a geek

Journeyman Geek

@Mithrandir where's that traitor gif when I need it....

(Its ok. I love all the stranger people)

Mithrandir

6:56 AM

It betrayed you.

Meta Andrew T.

I should have ignored them in the first place.

forest

Anyway... Free speech good. Fascism bad. Time to debug some code. :D

Journeyman Geek

I mean, I literally posted that I found 62 hangers while sping cleaning.

Meta Andrew T.

and my bug is decoding now...

Mithrandir

@JourneymanGeek You... counted them?

Journeyman Geek

6:58 AM

@Mithrandir ah erm

they were a mess

so I kinda made them into bundles for neatness

cause my mom's like "WE MIGHT NEED THEM!"

Buuut they're like the spare spare ones. We have a bunch in actual use. This was in a cabinet with my old chemistry gear.

Mithrandir

...I'd just stuff them in a box...

Journeyman Geek

Oh they stuffed it in a bag

Also a ton of old sparklers and party poppers.

those get thrown out

If this was india, i'd make a bonfire ;p

Tinkeringbell

7:59 AM

@JourneymanGeek Please don't! The pollution will cause climate change and make temperatures here even hotter! :P

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell oh going to dispose it at the bulk disposal dropoff

Tinkeringbell

Then let them burn it? :P

Journeyman Geek

I don't want to toss it in the chute (we have this little trapdoor leading to a central chute which collects at the bottom)

in case it catches fire.

Actually? Plausibly!

Tinkeringbell

I was... amazed ... yesterday at the amount of disposable plastic bottles everyone used. Even coworkers that have their own plastic refillable bottles were just grabbing them, instead of taking two extra steps and getting the very cold water from the cooler :/

Journeyman Geek

People are lazy

Tinkeringbell

8:03 AM

Apparently grabbing a little bottle with lukewarm water is better :/

Journeyman Geek

(granted, I'm one of those folks who does the worst thing and reuses disposable bottles a few times)

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek I can live with that :P

I used to that a lot too, before I bought my 'real' bottle ;)

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell apparently its horribad.

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, it will kill you.

As will not drinking, breathing and sleeping.

Journeyman Geek

But meh

I have a bad memory

and I don't want to single use bottles. Or keep buying soda

Tinkeringbell

8:06 AM

I have a bunch of bottles all over the place, so there's always one I can grab :P

Journeyman Geek

I need to do that ;p

I do have a cabinet at work

Tinkeringbell

Right now, I have one for work that's in my backpack (It'll go in the dishwasher tomorrow evening and back into my pack over the weekend). I have the strawless SO bottle in the fridge right now, with water + lemon parts. And the one with the straw is standing next to my bed, it's great to drink water from when you're only half awake :P

Glorfindel

^ those used to be attributed to Community, right?

Journeyman Geek

I kinda broke one of the Strawed SO bottles

I have a second

Tinkeringbell

@Glorfindel If the URL Rewriter Bot isn't some private user thing, yes ;)

I think so.

Journeyman Geek

8:08 AM

@Glorfindel I thought they had

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Mine is getting a bit wonky too, it fell and now I have to lift the straw in a specific way ;) But it still works :P

Journeyman Geek

the top came off.

Like seperated from the lid

Meta Andrew T.

Can't remember for HTTPS rewriter, I only remember the MSO->MSE one

Journeyman Geek

so I grow a moneyplant in it ;p

I probably have the only SO branded flowerpot ;p

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Aww! They're called pancake plants over here, I can imagine that looks good in a SO branded flowerpot ;)

Journeyman Geek

8:10 AM

They grow in water, need little sunlight, and ours basically never seems to die ;p

Its still quite little

rene

@Glorfindel not if that was a regular user making edits.

Mithrandir

@JourneymanGeek They were much more fragile than ones with the screw cap.

Journeyman Geek

@Mithrandir the screw capped ones are pretty much indestructable

Mithrandir

I'm actually surprised at how durable the screw cap ones are. I've dropped it hundreds of times and it still hasn't broken.

(It's actually sitting next to me in the car right now, bouncing around and rolling on the floor...)

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek I want one, as shoe

Journeyman Geek

8:12 AM

Yup

Magisch

as you know, cacti need flowerpots to move around

known in germany as chinese moneytree

"Chinesischer Geldbaum"

Journeyman Geek

I THINK our original was from ikea

was tiny

Magisch

I only have an ivy in my apartment

a spider's in there

cool guy, wants to be a web developer

Journeyman Geek

the spider?

Glorfindel

@rene no, it's the automated process. The timestamp matches the migration (May 23rd 2017).

Tinkeringbell

8:14 AM

I tried keeping many plants alive. I think I had the most success with a maranta, but even that died after a few cold winter nights in this bedroom ;-) I've now promised I will only get a plant again once I have my own place.

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell My family have different approaches

rene

@Glorfindel fair enough. Weird that they nuked the account.

Journeyman Geek

My mom's a natural

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek yea, it's a pun

Journeyman Geek

I do the whole "benign neglect thing"

Magisch

8:15 AM

get it? spider, a web developer

:P

Journeyman Geek

._.

Meta Andrew T.

.-.

forest

I saw a giant Bing Bot spider on bathroom mirror. I nearly jumped out of my skin.

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek hah, I'm immune to your defenstration efforts

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Ooold joke :P

Shall I quote 'De Spin Sebastiaan' to you? :P If we're talking about old funny stuff ;)

Journeyman Geek

8:22 AM

@Magisch technically if I put you in a flower pot...

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek you and which mitts? you have paws, no way to protect against cactus spines

Journeyman Geek

Foiled!

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Actually... you can grab most cacti barehanded if you know how :P

rene

If we all get in a flower pot, it gets crowded here

forest

Plenty of room in a forest.

Tinkeringbell

8:25 AM

@rene I'll take the fish pond then. :P

Journeyman Geek

(mental note. If folks start asking for a SO branded flower pot its my fault. Unlike the Razer Toaster)

rene

@Tinkeringbell to cool off ? ;)

Tinkeringbell

@rene Yep :)

Too hot here. I had to put a towel on my desk to avoid sticking to it (and yes, it's a clean desk).

Journeyman Geek

My room's 24 degrees

lo

laughs in air conditioning

Magisch

defenestrates the small dog

Tinkeringbell

8:29 AM

@JourneymanGeek Still trying to get out the heat here, outside temps should be around 23 but inside this room its 27. Probably because the sun was on the glass the whole morning.

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell I'm a little surprised but room seems holding steady

Sun's right on my window

Meta Andrew T.

I'm cold and shiny

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Our living room is pretty steady at 24,5 since yesterday

But this room is the worst isolated one (excluding the attic rooms)

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell we're already at 31.5°

projected to hit 40 today

Journeyman Geek

Ow

Tinkeringbell

8:32 AM

@Magisch Oh, we're not getting another such day today, it's supposed to stay in the lower twenties, I think :D

Journeyman Geek

We once had that on vacation to malaysia

Tinkeringbell

I'll send cold thoughts your way ;)

Journeyman Geek

Dumped the water bottles that was in the car (you could make coffee from it) on top to cool it off ;p

Magisch

it's actually not projected to go below 34° on noons until further notice

Tinkeringbell

A max of 26 today, then 23, 24, 30, 27 and then rain and 22 on Monday.

Magisch

8:36 AM

40-41° today, 37 tomorrow, 34 friday, 34 saturday, 37 sunday, 38 monday, 36 tuesday, 34 wednesday

hopefully they're wrong

Tinkeringbell

:( I hope so too!

But we have the sea cooling us a little, Germany already has a lot less of that... I'm afraid they're right.

Magisch

guy on the radio keeps claiming it'll be like last year but with higher average temps

last year we had 9 weeks without rain and without a day below 30

Tinkeringbell

O.o

Magisch

it went from end of july till end of september pretty much

it was annoying as hell but thankfully not as humid as right now

Tinkeringbell

I can imagine. Last year was very hot and dry here too, but nothing like what you're saying.

Time to migrate ;)

Magisch

8:41 AM

I remember the lamentations of the farmers and the brown grass everywhere

Tinkeringbell

Yeah, there's still big parts of dead heather over here....

Journeyman Geek

WHO IS HEATHER ? 0_0

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek A plant. :P

Calluna

Calluna vulgaris (known as common heather, ling, or simply heather) is the sole species in the genus Calluna in the flowering plant family Ericaceae. It is a low-growing perennial shrub growing to 20 to 50 centimetres (7.9 to 19.7 in) tall, or rarely to 1 metre (39 in) and taller, and is found widely in Europe and Asia Minor on acidic soils in open sunny situations and in moderate shade. It is the dominant plant in most heathland and moorland in Europe, and in some bog vegetation and acidic pine and oak woodland. It is tolerant of grazing and regenerates following occasional burning, and is often...

rene

8:57 AM

it is a bit early for that to carry flowers already?

Tinkeringbell

@rene Sure, but it should be green, not brown and dead, by now. I can snap a picture next time I get near it, it's very easy to see the dead parts.

rene

Oh, I need to hike a bit to se that first hand.

Tinkeringbell

It's a 1km or less bike ride from here to the highway, where you can clearly see it. I don't really know about the 'waterwingebied', haven't been there for a while. But I'm suspecting it to be the same

forest

Why isn't <a href=blah blah working in profile text?

rene

@forest on SE all linking is disabled in profiles

forest

9:05 AM

Huh? But I can link with [text](url).

rene

@forest on your network profile?

forest

No, user profile, e.g. security.stackexchange.com/users/165253/forest?tab=profile.

rene

@forest does it have a full url with http / https? and quotes

forest

Yes it's valid HTML.

Oh nvm you're right, I made a typo with title=.

rene

le sigh ... \o/ ... I offered valuable advice

forest

9:09 AM

<a href="http://phrack.org/issues/68/16.html#article" titl="Volume 0x0e, Issue 0x44, Phile #0x10 of 0x13">Lines in the Sand: Which Side Are You On in the Hacker Class War</a>

- titl != title, apparently. Damn HTML not knowing what I meant!

Magisch

9:21 AM

If the solution to "beginners are not welcome" ends up being "experts are not welcome" then it is game over. I resisted it for years, too, but a separate, beginner focused stack overflow (with beginner oriented rules, and special beginner tooling) feels inevitable to me at this point if the site wants to survive. — Jeff Atwood 46 mins ago

3

Jeff's take

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Oof. That's... confusing at least, not good at worst.

forest

Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.

There are way too many horrible low quality questions on SO.

Magisch

beginner SO will just end like quora with more code

forest

I know. Still better than letting SO rot.

Tinkeringbell

@forest Perhaps, but you're basically setting up some kind of black hole, full of people not getting their answers. They're going to whine about that not being welcoming either, about the more experienced users sticking together forming an impenetrable bastion that's still rude...

The only thing you might achieve is that the experienced users don't feel pressured into moderating so much horrible content

forest

9:26 AM

@Tinkeringbell Well that's pretty much what SO is right now.

Magisch

what will happen is that new users still go to the normal SO because on beginner SO nobody answers

and then we just shifted the problem from "this is not for this site" to "this is for this other site"

forest

In which case the questions will be deleted.

Or migrated.

Journeyman Geek

9:46 AM

@Magisch that said, a lot of the current way we do things is ... well Jeff

and he's been outta the company for quite a bit of the getting huge phase, and a lot of the changes

Also

A comment? really?

Journeyman Geek

10:04 AM

@Magisch exactly

Shadow The Curly Braced Wizard

11:00 AM

@Magisch N00b Overflow?

Stack For Dummies 101

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowTheCurlyBracedWizard 1. How to make an account

2. How to post a question

2a. How to check the help center

Shadow The Curly Braced Wizard

Hmm... Might be trademarked (101)

Tinkeringbell

2a.1. Finding out what is on-topic

Not going to work :P

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheCurlyBracedWizard If folks bothered to read all that...

we'd not have that problem

People are simple. They see a text box, they post

Unless you could use some fancy tech to work out whether they're posting questions in answer boxes, questions are dupes (and someone wrote a paper on that!) ....

and so on

ugh snap

hm

I don't actually want to summon them soooo

OH

Tinkeringbell

You're messing up your rooms :P And confusing me too :P

In other, good news: Temperatures are back below 20 degrees! Now to get this house to realize that too..

Shadow The Curly Braced Wizard

2:02 PM

plz-delete batch of 4 (!) XAMPP, Karate, teaming, and MSCV @rene @Glorfindel

rene