« first day (3397 days earlier)      last day (18 days later) » 
00:00 - 15:0015:00 - 00:00

12:32 AM
@MonicaCellio it was made clear in Meta answer that SE staff got direct and firm order from their "legal department" to stay silent about anything related to your case. I'm not happy about it, but it also makes me realize they don't just try to sweep things under the rug because they don't care.
They do care, just can't show it. :/
 
Rob
1:31 AM
Ding, fixed. 🧚
 
1:50 AM
@ShadowThePrincessWizard I know they can't support me and are probably under orders to not even talk with me. I was hoping I could at least get "not undermining except under direct orders". To me, things that boil down to "let's move on" feel like "you don't matter", even if what's meant is "we can't fix it". I don't want things to burn but I don't want to be forgotten on the trash heap either.
2
 
 
2 hours later…
3:56 AM
🚽
 
💩
3
 
✈️
 
 
3 hours later…
7:17 AM
@MonicaCellio I happened to stumble on this John Oliver Last Week Tonight, not exactly matching your case but it kind of shows, at least to me, not familiar with US practice, that this will not be solved in 6 to 8 weeks ...
 
mag
@Catija Independant arbitration comission chosen from the community needs to have final say in mod removals or at least veto power and review
3
You can't expect people to trust a process that is fully internal and private to produce just results when you have previously shown exactly the same type of process not doing that
7
The cat for that is forever out of the bag, I think
 
7:35 AM
@mag I'd rather not. Imagine someone really complains about me, and SE decides to take it seriously... I don't want random/independant people from the community to know what all the hubbub is about. You've seen what happens when people do get to know that.
 
mag
@Tinkeringbell I think there's no alternative. The decision and process has to be outside of the company and completly decoupled from the company
 
mag
Whoever decides it, it needs to be an independant (as public as possible) review.
 
Oh dear please no. If we ever get stuff like that, I'm out.
 
mag
sunlight is the best disinfectant
 
7:37 AM
Or not.
it's also a great way to start bushfires.
2
 
mag
if SE really believes a mod should be de-modded then the evidence and process needs to be public. Mods should be accountable to their constituencies, and that is their users, not SE
 
@mag If SE believes a mod should be de-modded, that person should have a chance to retain their online life.
 
mag
maybe they can make it opt-in
if a mod decides they want an independant trial they can have one
if they don't, they can resign when confronted with the option
the crux of the issue is that SE needs to be reigned in in their discretion, they can't have all the power and secrecy in this process
 
'trial' doesn't mean much if there's only one side. So what if a moderator chose to have things in public? SE isn't really the one 'defending' there, as it's acting on other people's complaints. Should those people be dragged into things as well?
 
mag
yes unless there are serious safety concerns
 
7:41 AM
I think if things ever come to a point where I contact SE about a specific moderator I have issues with, I don't want to 'defend' myself.
 
mag
there is a moral imperative right to confront your accuser
 
I contact SE in that case to make a decision.
Because at that point I can't figure things out myself.
 
mag
it's not a cornerstone of every democratic justice system for no reason
 
This is a website, not a democracy though.
Nor is this a justice system.
 
mag
thats handwaving
SE needs to be better then "we can do whatever we want"
 
7:42 AM
@mag it is not
 
mag
the community expects a certain degree of democracy and justice. As does the company, by the way
they expect us to be better then facebook or twitter, we expect them to also be
 
@mag Courts of public opinion are never really justice. Though they can influence what society considers should be called justice.
 
everything's on fire
@smoke
@SmokeDetector help us
 
You'd better call in the fire department or sprinklers instead of the SmokeDetector if there's already a fire ;)
2
(and you've noticed :P)
 
mag
I would be considerably more cool with letting SE have this power if they hadn't shown their willingness to abusively use it whenever they felt like it
6
 
7:45 AM
They haven't?
The only thing that was messed up is that in this case, details became public that should've been kept private.
 
mag
you wouldn't describe the monica situation as an abusive misuse of power?
I would. It might not be legally actionable but it's certainly morally abhorrent
 
yeah i've taken a notice to this situation
 
@mag No. Clumsy, yes. To the point that it's crazy. But not an abuse of power, no.
 
SQB
Regardless what I think about the issue over which Monica was fired, the firing itself was more than clumsy. All procedures were bypassed over an issue that didn't warrant it.
 
mag
Their refusal to fix their mess belies the true motives. we all know monica isn't a money grabbing litigant. The fact that they've not fixed it means they think they did the right thing, in all of this. Apologies aside, words are cheap, actions count
 
7:47 AM
@mag Its worth considering that part of the problem here is folks got their name dragged through the mud un-necessarily
 
it's either that
or it's a stalling tactic
>dragged through the mod
I get it
 
@justcool393 my bad spelling is legendary
 
aww you edited it
 
mag
@JourneymanGeek yeah, and they've refused to fix even that
 
i do it all the time tbh
 
7:48 AM
@mag Practically - having a "public" justice system just encourages that
 
mag
How are we supposed to believe they'll be better from here on out? They haven't even undone what they could have easily undone. They've given absolutely nothing but empty promises
 
if SE dosen't want me as a mod, I'd like them to drop me an email
 
@SQB The point is there weren't any procedures. The ones that were there are for site mods having a problem with another mod on their team. Not for SE/other moderators not on your team/users that have a problem with someone. There are procedures now.
 
and that's it
 
mag
there is not the faintest speck of action to back up the words
 
7:49 AM
that's kinda the problem I'm seeing
 
SQB
An additional problem is that now, SE is damaging their own cause of being more welcoming to members of the Lavender community. Because a lot of users are voting down everything related to the new CoC as a way of protesting.
 
it's gonna continue to burn until something happens
 
@SQB actually we're also attracting folks who want to specifically make the place less friendly
 
@mag I'm getting a bit tired of seeing 'easily' in this context. Things were never easy to begin with.
 
Sometimes specifically sometimes in general
 
SQB
7:50 AM
@Tinkeringbell for lack of procedures, those could've been followed. It wasn't an urgent matter.
 
We have people who are angry (somewhat understandably!)
 
mag
in fact, the way this all went down you can't even credibly believe they really wanted to help any marginalized people because they've done the polar opposite and left the tire fire to burn unchallenged
@Tinkeringbell sure does look like it from my non-mod point of view
 
@JourneymanGeek but this is a result of the boosting that was started by SE
that's kinda the problem where it starts
 
@justcool393 eh, no, actually that's deeper than that
it starts much further back
 
the entire drama would've been avoided had it just been left in the TL
ig
 
7:52 AM
@justcool393 eh, not really
 
SQB
@JourneymanGeek yeah, I was under the same impression.
 
I know there has been growing discontent for a while with the CoC things
 
@justcool393 I'd say it goes back a lot further
 
@mag It's not.
 
yeah
 
7:52 AM
and that there's a few communities SE already lost touch with.
 
I get that
StackOverflow Meta and SE have been at odds for a while
I've... noticed.
 
ehh, one of our goals for MSE was to make it friendlier and more useful to staff and users alike.
 
yeah, that's why I specifically mentioned SO's Meta
 
But as a non SO user - SO's kinda a place that people higher up in the food chain have always considered important.
 
SQB
@JourneymanGeek yeah, the "welcoming wagon" and "be nice to noobs" campaigns weren't terribly successful either.
 
7:54 AM
I do remember that
 
mag
@Tinkeringbell looks like we'll have to wait to see until monica subpoenas the chat logs and internal communications before we'll see what exactly happened
 
@SQB well - announcements are rarely enough unless they come from someone people trusts
 
@mag We'll see.
 
mag
point is though, SE has earned no positive inferences, so we have to assume the worst with regards to what they don't tell us
 
side note regarding the CoC. I really stop wish people would calling them "CoC." I liked SE's "be nice" policy because it was... friendly. "Code of conduct" just sounds cold and uncaring
 
7:56 AM
@justcool393 Its a CoC. Apparently that's what people call it these days
 
@SQB For stuff like that, it's probably more helpful to think in terms of 'what can we do that will still allow us to moderate SO (close questions, clean them up) but also may make people feel more welcome than our current processes do' instead of just 'be nicer to noobs'.
 
yeah it is, but it's a bad name for it
 
mag
be nice is kind of a misnomer
the code of conduct doesn't require anyone to extend niceties. It requires people to be respectful and to behave
which is a lesser standard
 
i mean... it's obvious i think. assume good faith, etc, etc.
 
mag
assume good faith is not in it anymore, that was taken out
 
7:58 AM
I know.
it was in the previous policy
and honestly, idk what was wrong with it
but it was just an aside
 
mag
there's an article around somewhere about why it hurts minorities to have that in there, it's actually rather convincing if you view it from that lens
 
SQB
@Tinkeringbell I agree, but that's pretty much how it came across. It seemed to put emphasis on not being mean to new users, were even just terse comments were deemed unfriendly and unwelcoming, while giving little alternatives for correcting clueless new users who refuse to RTF(ine)M.
 
@mag I fundamentally disagree with that article - but folks seem to be content to pop it in here and get unhappy when I say I disagree ;p
 
given i'm part of one of the groups that the CoC wants to cater to, idk for certain, but i guess if there's a convincing argument...
but i believe that intentions do matter
i'm a lot more forgiving of someone if they've offended by accident rather than just with intent
 
JAD
Trolls love toeing the line of what's acceptable. For that, assuming good faith is a great help in their favour
3
 
mag
8:01 AM
I'm in one of the groups too, but I've never felt discriminated against on here. Sure there are people who think I'm an abomination (or worse), but they're everywhere and all about. It's not like it's worse here then it is elsewhere (in fact, it's better) and it's also not like prohibiting an opinion will make people not hold it
 
JAD
Since it forces you to assume they didn't mean to
 
mag
but I digress
 
@JAD they also tend to get ouraged easily sometimes
 
@SQB I'm not saying there wasn't a communication issue... but the actions following things have made it easier for me to see stuff that way.
 
and the critical thing is in a situation where everyone is on edge - a little space to breathe is nice
 
8:02 AM
> assuming good faith is a great help in their favour
assuming presuming maybe is different
maybe presume
 
mag
@Tinkeringbell I had the exact opposite experience, tbh
 
Of course you did... :/
 
JAD
@justcool393 I'm sorry, I don't understand what you meant with that
 
but the fact of the matter is, most people aren't trying to offend
@JAD
 
JAD
But the CoC isn't written to protect against most people
 
8:03 AM
@justcool393 to steal the example from what @mag said...
 
mag
i started off thinking this was a massively messed up communication failure, but it seems like the management is just evil in its current incarnation and trying for some sort of purge of the extant community
 
If I step on your foot, you can let me know. I should apologise.
If I do it again accidentally I am an idiot, and you're right to be mad at me
If I look you in the eye and do it again, saying it is my god given right...
 
JAD
So now ten people you have never seen before all stand on your foot
 
yeah....
 
yeah
 
8:04 AM
@mag More like there's part of the extant community that was being driven away, so they updated the CoC to try and keep them, instead of purge them.
 
If I go stepping on everyone's foot, something is wrong too
 
JAD
for each of them, do you accept it was by accident?
 
@JAD i didn't finish my point. there is obviously a point that trolls should be thrown out, but most cases like that are obvious and don't really belong, especially here.

for the cases that aren't so obvious, well that's what moderators are for
 
@JAD well if its one behind another, it is not
 
mag
@Tinkeringbell Intent and effect are the same in this case because they refuse to tell us anything
and the effect was a purge people they purpoted to want to protect, and they've refused to even start fixing anything, so
 
JAD
8:05 AM
@JourneymanGeek Well, maybe not one after the other, but over the course of a question being in HNQ for example
 
mag
at what point does continuing to assume good faith of people involved become naive?
 
JAD
^
 
@JAD actually that's an example of a mistake getting fixed
 
@mag There's no refusal to fix stuff... but the people interacting on here aren't the ones with the power to fix this.
 
mag
I'm not talking about the CMs
they are as much the victim in this as the mods
I'm talking about Sr. Management
 
8:06 AM
@mag We don't know what they are thinking
 
mag
And not assuming the worst after all they've done is naive
 
@JourneymanGeek And concluding that means there's a refusal to fix is wrong, IMO
 
JAD
@JourneymanGeek It's what I'm trying to say. In that interaction I described, having to start from a basis of assuming good intentions, means having to start from square one all over again.
 
mag
When has management ever given you a reason to not assume the worst in the past 3 months or even 2 years? They haven't. They're not even the same people who earned the benefit of the doubt they've squandered over this time
 
with regards to other users on the site you have to assume some level of goodwill in the people you interact with. honestly, most interactions that are abusive on the site have always been flagged and removed or modified to be not so. it's... been part of the rules for longer than efforts to "be nice" or institute a focus-group mandated Code of Conduct(R) have existed
yeah there's gonna be trolls, but trolls don't tend to post on topic questions anyway
 
8:13 AM
@justcool393 Ehh. Some do. Ones that are just borderline enough to make the community despair. Also... MSE is a bit of an odd-duck when it comes to 'on topic'
 
yup
Stuff can be on topic, but not nice
 
mag
whatever it is you two use to keep believing SE has redemptive qualities, I want some of that
 
MSE is indeed a bit of an odd duck within regards to topicality
i agree
but i do also think that systems for editing have been around for years and they often make the questions posed better anyway
 
@mag we've worked on making it better over the past year
we're just as upset
 
mag
yeah but why you
what makes you think you're not just generating shareholder value for an abusive corporation, or aiding in the destruction of what you love?
 
8:16 AM
@mag booze, mainly. And a little booklet called 'omdenken'.
@mag private conversations, mainly. I wish I could talk about those more but I won't violate that trust.
 
@mag cause without hope for something better, I am gone
 
mag
I'm wondering why you're not
 
And I've been here a while. I've seen what it can and should be
 
Not violating trust?
 
mag
no, gone
 
8:17 AM
I think a lot of people care about the community
 
Good question. Cause there's folks who actually get some good out of this
 
mag
george is right. It seems like the only path to fixing it is to leave them to their own devices so investors pull the plug before it fully collapses
 
idk who
it seems like everyone is just miserable
 
mag
by continuing to help, you're helping abusive management not having to face the music they made
 
@mag Oh. Well, I was on my way out. Then I saw the kind of BS some users of IPS got poured over them, just because they dared speak up about not being cishet. I don't want to stand by while that happens.
 
8:18 AM
maybe SE?
 
mag
you can't fix this all on your own, and your attempt enables them to continue to do nothing
 
@mag yanno?
That's another reason
I've had folks being bullies on meta.
A few have tried to bully me into quitting
And well, if SE won't stand up, someone has to.
 
mag
I respect you two immensely, but I think you're standing up for the wrong people
 
My users?
The folks who actually care about it?
 
mag
SE doesn't need to be stood up for, and your users would be better off to end this prolonged bleed-out sooner rather then later
 
8:20 AM
I think @mag
@mag is saying that you're standing up for SE, inadvertenyl
 
@mag I've never particularly defended SE through any of this
 
sorry I'm a bit used to discord where you have to press enter so I accidentally send the message
 
@justcool393 No worries ;)
 
Actually I suspect I've burnt enough bridges at this point I doubt I should bother applying if another job came up
 
mag
it needs to get darkest right before dawn, you two can't stem the tide or fix the underlying issue, only SE can do that, and it's clear they won't until the effects become too big to ignore. It's a pure matter of time, you're only slowing it
 
8:22 AM
@mag so here's the thing.
Everyone seems to know what I should do
Yet no one's really willing to step up and do what they need to.
Not just here.
 
i don't envy your position
 
mag
the only people with the power and pull to fix this are SE management
even if every single user you know banded together to make a coordinated effort we wouldn't stop anything, just slow it down a bit more. The dynamic is messed up for as long as they let it be
 
@mag and - I'm doubtful they're going to be much good between when they have now, or when they either choose to, or are compelled to act.
 
honestly, i've made parallels earlier in the day, but it happens a bunch on Reddit too, where people will take it out on the moderators when it's actually Reddit and its administrators which are causing the turmoil
 
@mag then what's the point in complaining?
 
mag
8:24 AM
When it gets bad enough, the board might want to step in to protect their investments
 
@mag eh, By which time, we've lost the place
 
mag
sad state that this is what it looks like it will take but eh
 
@JourneymanGeek if I can't complain, how will people know that I am very mad on the internet™?
 
or SO becomes basically all that matters, and the rest of the network gets shut down
 
mag
That depends when they wake up to the situation
 
8:24 AM
@justcool393 That's okay. In a sense, we're the gateway here... but I'm not going to blindly forward each 'I hate you' message. If there's something that's constructive, that focuses on stuff that can be done... I'm more than willing to pass stuff on :)
 
mag
@JourneymanGeek That is happening anyways if they don't do anything. Several sites core' communities are in open rebellion
do you think the next TWP election will yield a functioning site? it's going to be an unmitigated shitshow
 
@Tinkeringbell oh yeah I'm not saying you should. idk what relationship MSE mods and the staff have that's different if any
 
@mag well - that's fine. Meta and SU are my concerns
 
JAD
@mag from the outside, TWP looks pretty functioning
 
And yes, I'm aware of stuff going on outside those
 
8:26 AM
@justcool393 Well we kinda 'moderate' the same site, so we talk... perhaps a bit more ... than a moderator team on IPS would do, for example ;)
 
JAD
and I think that's what stings for many people. The sites just keep trucking on unless a significant portion of members walk away
 
I don't moderate anywhere on SE
 
JAD
And I have only really seen that happening on WritersSE.
 
@justcool393 You don't even flag or comment? :P
 
oh nvm i get it
 
JAD
8:27 AM
Which I suppose is small enough to have that happen. TWP is much bigger than that
 
i think i joined a site to flag a post but i don't have enough rep on any site for the assoc bonus so i couldn't flag
i think i made one comment on MSE
 
mag
@JAD question quality took a sharp dip, flag handling times went way up, off topic comments are rampant
we have exactly one active mod left there
 
@justcool393 Ahh... I joined SO to upvote an answer and ran into the same problem :P
 
I found out SU came out of beta on slashdot and was curious 🤣
 
JAD
@mag and the question is, does SE Inc care about those metrics? Because if not, users might find themselves looking back after they have left, and see that they are not really missed.
As a certain retweet seems to imply
 
8:33 AM
@JourneymanGeek Yeah, I started using SO, saw more social stuff in the HNQ sidebar, and decided to use that to kill time on long commutes.
 
JAD
The only group really hurt by it would be the community itself that does care about those metrics.
And I think that that is where it hurts the most. By leaving, you are hurting the community before you hurt SE Inc.
And what keeps most people involved here happens to be that community
 
@JAD I... the retweet was dumb from a business perspective. But I also wouldn't give it too much weight. I see dead things (deleted stuff), and if you get that much hate and spite aimed at you... well... after all it's a personal Twitter account where people post personal opinions and perhaps vent a bit too when there's times like these.
 
mag
@Tinkeringbell If I did that to my company's customers, I'd be gone before the end of the day
just saying
 
@Tinkeringbell assuming people who leave because of a COC are hostile is naive
 
@mag You're not a customer here though ;)
 
8:36 AM
Many are totally going to stay out of spite
 
mag
you don't know that
 
@JourneymanGeek It is... and I did say it was dumb to retweet it. But I can understand the feeling of 'good riddance' after all that was aimed at her!
 
mag
I was planning on taking a gander at teams when they had the free offer but this thing started then
would have been perfect to replace our internal wiki
 
JAD
@Tinkeringbell eh, it's an example, but the stance in that retweet is a lot harsher than is needed for what I described. Retweet was "good riddance", "meh" is enough.
 
@Tinkeringbell hm. Only if some consideration beyond people are poppyheads was had
 
8:38 AM
I see I managed to pick the unpopular opinion again... :/
 
@JAD that's a problem with the current discourse. Too many extremes
 
JAD
@JourneymanGeek Polarize everything
the true Sith mentality
If you're not with me, you're my enemy
 
@JAD I do not like that. We need a little more harmony
 
JAD
It seems to be pretty much baked in society. It's not just a SE thing, or an online thing
To take the extreme: it's everywhere
 
@JAD eh honestly I consider it a very Western view
 
JAD
8:41 AM
hmm
 
mag
middle ground got lost some time ago
we all have to live with the fact that everything is polarized these days
 
Meh. Then they win
 
@JourneymanGeek tell that to israel and Palestine?
 
@Tinkeringbell i think i joined SO to comment but realized I needed 50 rep so i answered some years old question about the Reddit API
 
@djsmiley2k-CoW gee. Who drew the borders there?
 
8:44 AM
Also to every religion other than buddism?
 
not before getting all the badges i could with the 1 rep I had
 
You would be surprised how many modern conflicts started with the English
 
mag
@JourneymanGeek they already did
 
@mag meh. Only if folks give up and let them
 
mag
in the face of group dynamics we are all insignificant
 
8:46 AM
In the face of entropy everything we do is
The universe will die, cold and alone
But. What good does giving up do?
 
mag
saves you heartache
also recognizing this makes it easier to view the bigger picture. None of us have any influence on where this network is going, except in very small ways
 
And you think I didn't try?
 
mag
there are more productive uses of your time then trying to put out a forest fire with a watering can
yell at the guy with the fireengine sitting on the sideline
 
I'm tired of folks telling me what to do.
 
/me yells at the blackhole at the centre of the galaxy for not swallowing us up yet.
 
8:53 AM
Unless you can get me a better job, take over matchmaking and fix SE
 
mag
@JourneymanGeek hey, you keep asking me for reasoning, if you want me to shut it and leave you alone about this, just say so
 
9:27 AM
 
9:47 AM
@MonicaCellio I totally understand! But the order they got is not "Don't talk with Monica", it's "Don't talk about Monica" - there's a difference, which makes it somewhat less personal. At least the way I see it, and I promise I won't forget about what happened.
 
user602663
9:58 AM
Wait, what's wrong with a username similar to website in an answer?
 
mag
@Elfvia over a sample of all known spam posts it is a statistically good predictor of spam
 
company having business based on a community provided content where community managers are legally forbidden to talk about a member of community. Hmmm
 
@gnat lol
First rule of SE Club.
Don't talk about SE Club.
 
user602663
10:23 AM
@mag oh, I see now :)
 
11:04 AM
I can only give you these few suggestions
a) ask the registry to publish a new amend article and/or to edit out the name from the existing one. Regardless of what the company thinks now about the case, the existence of that article in its current form read as "This now fired SE Mod should not be hired because horrible person" - I doesn't seem that even you employees wanted it to read out like that. Isn't this the same user you appointed as a mod "automatically" last year because you trusted her? The cat is out of the bag now, but reaching out to the registry could be a first sign of "good
4
(Note: in the above message, Shog was mentioned only because by personal experience he is the one that seems to be more "present" in this room, often chatting with the user and sharing info, answering question and so on. No offense meant for anyone else, I just used the employee I see more often recently. That, and Shog.)
@Tinkeringbell didn't someone build an accurate replica of the Taj Mahal some year ago?
 
I must admit I don't follow Minecraft stuff ;)
 
11:32 AM
@Hitodama typos...
 
@djsmiley2k-CoW It should still be readable I hope.
 
mag
11:46 AM
to think I would ever come to a point to be more cynical then you @Hitodama
times have indeed changed
 
@mag I wonder if you realize which users we are, then.
 
mag
I do, it has to do with ponies...
 
@Hitodama it is yes.
 
12:10 PM
@mag Contrarily to @Shadow theories, I am not Tabitha St. Germain.
 
12:37 PM
@Hitodama That's exactly what Tabitha St. Germain would say.
 
mag
reverse psychology
 
1:05 PM
@Tinkeringbell problem is that when you stop talking with user A because user B punched you in the face, most of the time user A is left wondering what they has done and why you keep yelling them to stop punching people. Here, they kinda stopped interacting with a group because single members hurt them. And now the rest of the group is sad/angry, while the original "trolls" are probably laughing somewhere proud of the fights and grudge they started.
 
1:18 PM
@Hitodama If I ever do that, it's because A's showing signs of being just like B in that regard. There's groups that hurt people, and those groups here are also the loudest in shouting that they should be allowed to hurt people... that's not good.
 
mag
@Tinkeringbell or because you got frustrated
 
? I stop talking with user A because I'm frustrated B punched me in the face? Perhaps B punched hard enough to make talking hurt, but that doesn't mean I can't talk with A once the broken jaw has healed.

If people don't talk with A because B 'got them frustrated', they're not a great person. It's the point where you can try to assure A you're not like B, or get mad...
 
mag
see this is the crux of the issue
you can't expect people to lean in and be better
 
You can, that's how societies work.
 
mag
people are like we all are, emotional and fully capable of getting carried away
especially say when they've been slighted
or feel that way
 
1:25 PM
Emotions do guide actions, that's true. But (exception circumstances left aside) you have full control over which actions.
 
mag
do you really feel that is true
 
Why would I lie about that?
 
@Tinkeringbell that was just an example. There relevant part is the second one. The company has somehow shut down communication with all the comunity - or at the very best greatly reduced it - because some single voices in the community said/did bad things. And this alienated many other users from the rest said community that up to now were still supportive
 
@Hitodama "that up to now were still supportive" < if that's true, there's no need for fixing things then, as that part is no longer supportive anyways so it'd be a waste of time to treat them like they were.
 
mag
@Tinkeringbell if that was the case the world would be a remarkably harmonius place. We're all to one extent or another directly or indirectly influenced by how we feel. Getting angry at people who don't control their emotions well is rather cruel, in my opinion. In general, responsibility flows up. The more power you have, the more restraint you're supposed to show.
 
1:29 PM
@mag I did not state everyone used that control 'correctly'.
It's not cruel to get angry at people who don't control their emotions well, if there's no medical reason for them not to do so.
 
mag
It's that distinction I don't understand
how is that delineated
 
I did point out exceptional circumstances in my initial statement too.
 
mag
I have autism, you presumably wouldn't get angry at me for having a panic attack. but mine are also just emotions
what makes me different from when you lose your cool?
What makes someone who wasn't formally diagnosed contemptible for the same failure in restraint?
 
@Tinkeringbell If you want to read that line as that... sure.
> I used to think that stories were just that. Set in stone, concrete as a fact. It didn't come to me that I could change history...
 
mag
I don't get this. On the one hand we're all in favor (rightly!) of protecting people from cruelty based on what they can't control. On the other hand, we're so eager to dismiss other people's emotions as "they should know better". Well, that seems rather arbitrary and cruel to me.
 
1:36 PM
Okay. So emotions drive actions. Exceptional circumstances aside (such as medical reasons), you have control over how you let your emotions drive your actions. I'm not dismissing the emotions. I'm saying that if you let your emotions drive you to certain actions, I might let mine drive me to others.
If you chose 'get carried away' as your action... my response is not going to look favorably on that.
Especially not if people do so over and over and over.
 
mag
you're still arguing as if this is a simple "Will I act reprehensible today or nah?" choice
you know as well as I do that it's really really hard to take the divergent path sometimes
 
It's hard, yes. That doesn't make it impossible, and it doesn't make it an 'unconscious' choice to not try it.
 
mag
You don't know if someone tried to remain calm but failed, all you see is the result
2
 
@Tinkeringbell You're speaking as though there were "emotions" on the one hand, and "you" on the other hand, as if those were two totally separate things.
Emotions drive perceptions and perceptions drive actions. You can't control how emotions drive perceptions, and it's not feasible to prevent perceptions from driving your actions.
 
1:52 PM
Oh, no... a you is way more than just emotions, that's part of the theory too... But that's why emotions alone are never an excuse. A 'you' makes choices, a you has a history that influences how they perceive things, a you has a set of beliefs and personal rules....

We were just talking about the emotion part driving actions though.
you's are very complicated things.
 
Right, I don't think emotions are an excuse, at least not most of the time. They can certainly be an explanation, but usually they're not an excuse.
 
@TannerSwett Meh. Agree to disagree I guess, as I definitely can control emotions and how I let those influence my actions. The people around me can do so too.
If no-one could, there'd be a lot more crime in this world.
 
Hmmmm
I kind of agree, maybe.
If I'm angry, but I believe that I shouldn't be angry, I can usually calm myself down.
But if I'm angry and I don't believe that I shouldn't be angry, I'm not going to do that.
 
@TannerSwett But you're also not automatically letting that anger out in unlawful ways..
(as much fun as this is, I have a meeting... be back soon)
 
True.
o/
 
2:44 PM
just wanted to drop by and ask if i'm the only one missing twitter oneboxing :D
 
@CptEric Nope. It's been broken for a few months now and I still miss it quite a bit.
 
i tried to bump a bit one old post about it last week but the speed at which things move here made it probably invisible.
 
Eh, I think I may have seen it. But awareness is not the issue. the relevant people are aware, it's likely a matter of resources.
 
sometimes something distracts you and 4 months in you find a branch without open MR that fixed it, so it's worth trying.
 
@Rubiksmoose I think I heard people say it was because something on the Twitter side changed... and chat doesn't see much development anyways?
 
2:56 PM
13 messages moved to Chimney
 
@Tinkeringbell Yeah I've heard various ideas. Nothing seemingly conclusive about what went wrong. But I generally just assume chat things are low priority :-/
 
They are, I think.
 
00:00 - 15:0015:00 - 00:00

« first day (3397 days earlier)      last day (18 days later) »