Tavern on the Meta

12:03 AM

@Shog9 if I had known I was so close to beating you I would have stayed away a little longer

1:55 AM

@user58 Pre-MSO-MSE split, there used to be Stack Overflow moderators here in the Tavern (as this was also the meta room for Stack Overflow).

Also, there is a way for an RO to stop a user from creating new rooms. Kicking them three times consecutively in a single room will ban them from creating rooms.

(Though that doesn't work if the user refuses to speak in the room, denying ROs the ability to kick.)

Journeyman Geek

2:35 AM

Oo

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Oh Journey I see you have your mod status back.

Couldn't live without it eh? :P

Journeyman Geek

Uhm. I took a break. Granted I figured I'd come back when things quietened down but meta kinda is a bit of a mess and I wanted to help out

And the badge opens some doors

The forest of Reinstate Monica

ic

Shog9

@GeorgeStocker you just gotta stick around longer...

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog Do you know how long that lasts? I've certainly been kicked three times before here. Not that I think I'll ever need to create a room on MSE, but still...

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

2:45 AM

@TheforestofReinstateMonica Indefinitely until a moderator lifts it

The forest of Reinstate Monica

ah

Well if any mods have the time that'd be nice. Just for the principle of the thing.

Oh yay Monica reached her $10,000 GoFundMe goal.

(I didn't donate myself, but I support it, for whatever that's worth)

Journeyman Geek

@TheforestofReinstateMonica nope. Too busy

The forest of Reinstate Monica

shame

Yet another reason I prefer IRC. The moderation controls are so quick. :)

/mode #tavern +o-o forest Journey

:^)

Journeyman Geek

IRC isn't really persistent without services or bouncers bolted on

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Moderation status is persistent.

+b, +q and the like

Journeyman Geek

2:53 AM

Wouldn't that be based on chanserv or it's equivalent?

The forest of Reinstate Monica

They're inconsistent though. On Freenode, +q means quiet (not banned, but unable to speak). On Rizon, +q means founder (even more power than regular ops!) Funny when they're mixed up!

Well ChanServ can do that as well, but standard modes persist for as long as the chan exists.

Journeyman Geek

And the chan needs at least one user to exist?

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Most IRC services ensure a registered channel will exist even without users.

In the good old days, that wasn't the case and you could take over a channel if a netsplit occurred and you happened to be left as the only one in the room. :P /cycle and you're god.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

3:17 AM

@TheforestofReinstateMonica The SE system does automatically appoint room owners from active users in case all room owners become inactive

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

3:37 AM

@JourneymanGeek Batch of spam accounts: meta.stackexchange.com/users/634133/sarika-style meta.stackexchange.com/users/635106/sachin-mishra meta.stackexchange.com/users/635547/bionatrolcbdusa meta.stackexchange.com/users/635546/yamni-feli

Journeyman Geek

Erf

Will take a look

LinkBerest

4:04 AM

@Nobody Not necessarily: New York law holds specific cases of defamation per se which do not require one to show damages (this includes trade defamation, workplace defamation - which is defined as professional relationship, and can include Internet defamation).

Not arguing about whether that happened here but thems the laws

Also the workplace one would be quite a stretch but ....stranger cases have happened

Journeyman Geek

@LinkBerest Some people ... kinda go too far.

LinkBerest

yes....case law is an odd thing to study sometimes because of this

also: I don't know whether to say congrats or I'm sorry for you re-starting SE mod duties so: "congorry"

Journeyman Geek

@LinkBerest At this point it felt like the right thing to do

I'll let you know how badly I regret it in 6-8 weeks

LinkBerest

Not gonna judge I understand the need for a break, the need to stand on principles, and the need to say "stuff it, I gotta take care of my own" - all I can say is good luck and Meta.SE is better for it with you as a mod

^ above is not a statement about Tink's performance which has been admirable during this time :)

Journeyman Geek

4:21 AM

@LinkBerest and that's a difficult part of it really

I basically have to balance someone I respect being treated in a way I disagree with, by folks I know are capable of so much more, with a space that's important to me struggling

LinkBerest

4:36 AM

@TravisJ Also Python to Slack (though I still like SOPython and it is not yet abandoned, its not the same level as when I started years ago)

@JourneymanGeek yeah, hence no judgement (its not an easy call)

user58

6:26 AM

@Sonic I think you change people's writing style too much.

I have a specific style and ways that I write. I don't always need someone to edit my voice. It changes the feel of the post.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

6:37 AM

@user58 Okay...but as it's currently written, it has factual errors.

5 hours ago, by Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@user58 Pre-MSO-MSE split, there used to be Stack Overflow moderators here in the Tavern (as this was also the meta room for Stack Overflow).

It's not correct that this room had no mods other than staff for "most" of its history. For the majority of its history, there were either Stack Overflow mods or MSE mods here.

(SO mods had moderator access on this chat server - formerly Chat.MSO - prior to the MSO-MSE split.)

PM 2Ring

What user58 said. You can fix my typos, but please don't change my voice. Of course, if someone has poor English skills, you may have no option but to change their voice with your edits, but in that situation you have to be very confident that you understand what the author is attempting to say. It's often a good idea to clarify that with comments before making an edit.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

Having the facts correct also helps bolster a feature request.

5 hours ago, by Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

Also, there is a way for an RO to stop a user from creating new rooms. Kicking them three times consecutively in a single room will ban them from creating rooms.

So it's not correct that "there is no way to stop them from...creating their own [rooms]".

PM 2Ring

I know that the general SE policy is to encourage edits, but I mostly prefer people to offer suggestions for improvements in comments, especially while my post is still "active". Similarly, I try to encourage OPs (especially new ones) to fix their question themself, rather than to "take over" and rewrite their question for them.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@PM2Ring I guess that's where I kind of disagree. I prefer to edit feature requests so they are more likely to be implemented, and so the author has first-hand experience with how feature requests are properly structured on Meta, so that later feature requests by them fit the standard. Expecting one to improve their request without firsthand advice of how helps no one.

Journeyman Geek

7:02 AM

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog uhm. Lots of people tend to ask for their intent and voice to be respected. And I'm kinda iffy on how it makes it "more likely"

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

The point of what I'm saying is, use your own tone and voice, but at least make sure that your facts are correct.

I've seen cases where a request ended up being ruined entirely by fairly minor mistaken facts.

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog Facts are intent

If they are wrong in most cases you should comment

Also, what is this about? I could entirely be conversing via my donkey here.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

8 hours ago, by user58

0

Q: Appoint chat moderators responsible for exclusively moderating chat

Currently, the way that chat moderation is set up, it relies heavily on site moderators moderating chat in addition to their main Q&A site. Moderators have some pretty powerful tools (freezing rooms, suspensions), and rooms also have a first line of defense in the form of room owners, who have sm...

Journeyman Geek

Ya

Those edits go waaaaay too far

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

It contains two incorrect assertions: 1. this room, Tavern on the Meta, had no moderators other than staff for "most" (i.e. the majority) of its history, and 2. ROs can't ban users from creating new rooms.

@JourneymanGeek Most of them were indeed voice edits, which I've agreed weren't really warranted.

Journeyman Geek

7:06 AM

> this room, Tavern on the Meta, had no moderators other than staff for "most" (i.e. the majority) of its history

Which is a reasonable assumption to make, post split, and has no real effect on the validity of a *network wide* FR

> ROs can't ban users from creating new rooms.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

Okay, the first one is fairly minor. But the second one is one that could conceivably be a factor contributing to the potential downfall of the feature request.

Journeyman Geek

... darn it

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog so, comment

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

An SE employee making a decision on the feature request, or a community member posting an answer, is not likely to read the comments.

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog i.e. be used as one additional factor in a user's answer arguing against the request, or an SE employee's decision to decline

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog the OP should

And erf

Here's an important thing to realise - FR's are unlikely to get accepted on the strength of one post, or done exactly as we asked for, or in a predictable manner.

So a lot of what you're saying could be reading into stuff a little too much

I had a feature request kinda... just happen overnight ;p

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

I want to see it implemented. I'm in favor of it. And as one who's in favor of it, I'm doing us all a favor by bolstering the post, to address potential reasons for declining it before they're posted and affect the employee's decision. In other words, trying to sway everyone to like it and employees to implement it.

mag

7:11 AM

chat only mods would be an interesting idea, but I think its unlikely to happen

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

I was given a specific complaint against editing voice, so I won't do that. But I at least would prefer if facts were correct.

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog so... comment

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

Potentially relevant Markov chaining (10k-only)

Journeyman Geek

I thought that was hilarious

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@JourneymanGeek A quick unrelated question: during the test to have the global moderator room here on MSE chat, is the TL still open, or is it not open?

Journeyman Geek

7:16 AM

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog We're scouts honour not using it ;p

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

10 hours ago, by user58

@mag automatic deletion + reparent + kick

@JourneymanGeek There isn't a bot doing this?

Journeyman Geek

uhm no

Cause contrary to what it looks like we're grown ups and ought to be expected to behave. Even the teenagers.

(who usually behave better than the grownups but shhhh)

Basically none of the normal moderation tools work on moderators

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@JourneymanGeek That's absolutely right

@Glorfindel Mind making yourself pingable for another seven days?

Glorfindel

sure

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

Thanks!

Glorfindel

7:25 AM

yw

I'm a bit too busy these days to spend real time here.

rene

realtime or real time

user58

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog I... have plenty of experience with the way MSE and feature requests work, thank you.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@user58 That was regarding new users, which were mentioned in the previous message.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

7:41 AM

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog Yeah I know. I got RO on one room because everyone was gone for a few days. I literally woke up to it randomly.

user58

+28/-16. That is a controversial FR.

And @Sonic, I think you're assigning too much importance to an offhand comment that is broadly correct.

That's hardly my main point.

Tinkeringbell

8:06 AM

@Bart I don't think I will need it. But thanks :)

mag

8:26 AM

today in "suspiciously timed too broad and conversational TWP question" : workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/147305/…

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Isn't "assume good intentions" a thing now?

Or are we back to the whole "this sexual harassment is obviously a lie" thing?

mag

I'm not saying it's made up

The forest of Reinstate Monica

It was the implication, even if it wasn't spoken explicitly.

mag

The implication was that I'm skeptical

The forest of Reinstate Monica

right

It doesn't trigger my troll-dar, fwiw.

mag

8:29 AM

It's like the question with the salary database

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Don't know that question.

mag

was deleted by a mod

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Must've been a pretty bad troll.

I only know of one genuine troll post that hit HNQ and remained there, but that's also because the person who wrote it told me (not sure if it was Workplace or IPS though).

And even that was a bit obvious.

SPArchaeologist-様

Hi @Theforest. I think you will like this.

You know.... security.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Wait, is that for SE?

SPArchaeologist-様

8:37 AM

@TheforestofReinstateMonica no, something I had to work on. Not SE

A SharePoint app. A sort of ticketing service, just to give you a vague idea of the context.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

ah

I saw something like that once, but for a financial program.

With an isadmin:1 that allowed making changes... with repudiation.

SPArchaeologist-様

Here the "isAdmin" flag controls which items you can see - normal users only get to see and handle the "tickets" they are associated with. Admins can handle everything.

Bart

If you cannot assume people to be honest about being an admin or not, where is this world going?

SPArchaeologist-様

And the server... trusts your claim of being an admin :P

Bart

Absolutely. Do you really want to be a liar? Tsk tsk tsk.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

8:40 AM

Anyone know the image of that phone with duct tape over all numbers but 9 and 1, with a label saying "this phone is only for emergencies"?

SPArchaeologist-様

@TheforestofReinstateMonica yep, I think I saw that....

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@Bart That's why we need RFC 3514!

SPArchaeologist-様

But another one comes to mind.

Bart

@TheforestofReinstateMonica where do I vote for this?

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@Bart On a bird's leg with RFC 1149, of course.

SPArchaeologist-様

8:44 AM

@TheforestofReinstateMonica Found. Read here

Furthermore, for some reason, I think you will like that site - if you didn't know about it already.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Reeds a bit like the Zen of Unix.

Ian Kemp

i wish the codeless code hadn't stopped updating :(

SPArchaeologist-様

@TheforestofReinstateMonica Funny fact: the "How to Send a File" chapter in "How To" - Randall last book - basically suggests that. Just replace birds with butterflies

The forest of Reinstate Monica

heh

SPArchaeologist-様

@IanKemp I know.

user351483

9:54 AM

@TheforestofReinstateMonica We get people on TWP who create new accounts for each question, and each question appears to be crafted to hit HNQ. When the question loses attention, they create a new account with another contrived question. Most of them are too detailed and too specific to really be useful to the wider community.

mag

Most of those questions read more like a story that is crafted to be interesting and engaging rather then a question

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Sounds like a good opportunity for stylometry.

SPArchaeologist-様

YAY! New nonsense task of the day: find the "max" element in a set. A partially ordered set.

JAD

partially?

SPArchaeologist-様

Partially ordered set

In mathematics, especially order theory, a partially ordered set (also poset) formalizes and generalizes the intuitive concept of an ordering, sequencing, or arrangement of the elements of a set. A poset consists of a set together with a binary relation indicating that, for certain pairs of elements in the set, one of the elements precedes the other in the ordering. The relation itself is called a "partial order." The word partial in the names "partial order" and "partially ordered set" is used as an indication that not every pair of elements needs to be comparable. That is, there may be pairs...

and more specifically....

> The word partial in the names "partial order" and "partially ordered set" is used as an indication that not every pair of elements needs to be comparable.

Good luck to me in finding the MAX element, I suppose...