Tavern on the Meta

8:00 PM

@Catija Random uninformed thought: Meta fails because it's not a Q&A site running on Q&A software. Rather it's something that should run it's own... meta software where rep really isn't a thing at all or is earned a completely different way.

Getting downvoted on meta really shouldn't matter or be a problem

it really should just be part of being on meta

Catija

@Mgetz Eh. Meta is a great idea and serves a valuable purpose... but the mechanics need a major overhaul. We took the easy way by just making it identical to main sites... but it's becoming clear that that decision isn't aging well.

Mgetz

@Catija I believe we are in violent agreement?

Catija

yup

Mgetz

Random thought: see how many tomatoes and cupcakes you can pick up in one arm (not at once). That's how many tomatoes (disagrees) and cupcakes (agrees) you get per day

terdon

@Catija I don't think it ever worked well from its inception, to be honest. It has always been scary. I've always had users ask me to post for them or tell me they're scared to post on MSE. Quite apart from the "toxicity", if any, knowing that an unpopular suggestion will cost you privileges is a strong deterrent to participation.

Mgetz

8:04 PM

we'll roll for CM to see which arm we use

terdon

But I think you and I may have had this discussion before, once or thrice ;)

Mgetz

Should meta even have privileges?

terdon

Yes. For things like editing, at least.

But I have always been in favor of using network rep for this.

Mgetz

ok but what should determine how to get those?

terdon

Then again, this discussion is as old as meta itself.

Mgetz

8:05 PM

I'll put one cupcake on network wide rep, myself

terdon

And there are strong opinions, and good arguments, on both sides.

pkamb

did everyone who had a MSO account pre-split retain their (M)SO reputation on MSE?

Mgetz

@pkamb no

1000% no

terdon

@Mgetz you sure?

pkamb

so everyone started at ~100 a couple years ago?

terdon

8:08 PM

I seem to remember there being loads of rep on MSE from day one.

Mgetz

@terdon very, because I had an MSO account

Bart

No, we definitely kept our rep

pkamb

...

Mgetz

and I only moved over with 100 rep association bonus

terdon

@Bart Yes, that's what I thought.

pkamb

8:09 PM

ah so many of the high-rep users GOT exactly what I want, which is using SO rep on MSE :)

Mgetz

@Bart must have been above a certain threshold because mine didn't carry over.

terdon

@pkamb I think MSO had its own rep.

Which became the MSE rep.

But I don't really remember.

Bart

@pkamb no, because that never was SO rep. SO and MSO back in the day had their own rep systems. We transferred MSO rep to what is now MSE

pkamb

interesting

Bart

MSO was a weird hybrid "yeah it's the SO meta, but it's also the network meta" deal with its own reputation.

terdon

8:11 PM

Yep. MSE will have all your MSO reps (minus the few posts that will be migrated back over to MSO) and you'll continue to earn new rep there, and the new MSO will behave like all other child metas and inherit your main site (SO) rep. — Laura Apr 9 '14 at 17:39

Mgetz

I seem to be remembering differently, and complaints from other sites

regardless I don't care because I refuse to participate in MSE because of how it works

Bart

Good, more useless rep for us

Mgetz

Way to be toxic... that's really not a nice thing to say

pkamb

> It's also odd that Stack Overflow is the only network site without a proper, dedicated per-site meta, where its meta has its own reputation system not tied to the parent site in any way.

(old behavior)

Mgetz

It's basically telling me to f the hell off

terdon

8:13 PM

@Mgetz ????

Bart

Hahaha, it was not a serious remark in any way @Mgetz

Mgetz

@Bart Sarcasm doesn't work in text

terdon

"great, more foo for me" is a classic jocular expression.

Bart

It's something my grandfather used to say if someone didn't take a biscuit or slice of cake. "Good, more for me". @Mgetz

terdon

I'm sure Bart meant it as a joke

Mgetz

8:14 PM

@terdon and you assume people understand or get that joke?

Bart

@Mgetz it might be rather Dutch.

Mgetz

remember not everybody has the same context as you

terdon

@Mgetz I assume nothing, I am just explaining that it is a very common expression and one almost always used in a very friendly way. So I pointed that out because I saw you had misunderstood.

user58

It's a pretty common joke, IME...

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

yeah

Mgetz

8:16 PM

@terdon my point stands, and stands in light of the CoC too. What may seem like a joke to one person can be truly offensive to another.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

that is true of literally anything

terdon

@Mgetz OOokay.

Mgetz

We are last I checked discouraged from using sarcasm for that reason

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

... it's not even sarcastic.

Rob

One would assume good intentions, unless it's made clear that the person obviously intends harm.

Mgetz

8:17 PM

@Rob it's hard to assume good intentions when someone is casting a negative action in a positive light for themselves in text

ironically if Bart had appended a /s this would be moot

pkamb

ok, I posted an answer

0

A: How does Meta Stack Exchange work?

Reputation Accounts on Meta Stack Exchange have their own reputation, unassociated with any other sites on the Stack Exchange Network. Other Meta sites share reputation with their main sites. For example, a Meta Stack Overflow account has the same reputation as the associated Stack Overflow ac...

is there anything to add?

terdon

Bart has clarified it was just a joke. @Mgetz I'm sure nobody meant you any offense, so everyone, maybe move on?

Rob

I don't see that, in the line prior to your swearing, and more than three others have said the same.

Mgetz

/sigh /facepalm

rene

That sounds like a plan

Rob

8:19 PM

✔️

Mgetz

I give up

rene

@Mgetz what other outcome had you hoped for?

Mgetz

@rene for people to actually take a moment to reflect on how imperfect communication and assumed shared context can create this exact situation which led to the whole CoC thing?

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

possibly, people actually had such reflection and got to a different conclusion than yours?

Mgetz

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Possibly they never bothered to reflect or consider that there was even an alternative view point or even bothered to try to understand it

which is more likely

regardless I'm frustrated and done here for now

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

8:24 PM

@Mgetz now that, is directly insulting, and not even in a "possibly depends on shared context" way.

terdon

@Mgetz We did. Which is why so many of us tried to explain how we read it. You read it differently which, as you say, is a common problem with text-based communication. But that's why we discussed it. Your position was heard, and it was pointed out that the message was meant in jest.

Bart

Is this our "war" moment now? Everything is explained or reasoned about in the context of their own CoC perceptions, no matter the issue? If I offended or upset anyone with an attempt at a joke which I thought was obvious particularly due to the "useless rep" reference, then I apologize. Unreservedly. But holy frick people, there is more than the CoC. There has been more before it, there will be more after it.

terdon

How can we do better? Honest question.

Mgetz

1 min ago, by Mgetz

regardless I'm frustrated and done here for now

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

well then, cya

user58

8:25 PM

Folks... tensions are running high and people have shorter fuses than usual. Might I suggest this gets dropped for now?

🚽

@pkamb well done ;)

Look, cubs

<3

8:42 PM

o/

pkamb

meta.stackexchange.com/posts/337225/revisions

"unassociated" is not a word?!?

Bart

It is

pkamb

I know!

Bart

Not worth it to fight over, but it's a word @SonictheReinstateMonica-hog! shakes fist

^ that's a joke btw, just making sure ...

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@Bart My browser flags it as an incorrectly spelled word

Zoe the transgirl

8:44 PM

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog lexico.com/en/definition/unassociated merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unassociated

Bart

Your browser is poopy

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

I also pulled out every paper dictionary in my house, and couldn't find it

Bart

Ooh, you have multiple paper dictionaries? Fancy :)

Zoe the transgirl

> paper

See, this is where you're going wrong in life

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

lolwat :p

Bart

8:45 PM

Everyone knows that only what you find online is true. None of that book nonsense

Kevin B

books can be modified, what's online is forever

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

It was, of course, a paper book that prompted me to use singular they by default for so many years (before this fiasco happened)

user58

@Bart ....I have like twelve....

Zoe the transgirl

no, not that, but English evolves fast. TL;DR: was actually added to the dictionary recently, but any paper dictionaries written before that won't be up to date

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

oO

user58

8:46 PM

we have an entire shelf for dictionaries in my house

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

that... must make for wonderful supper discussions...

runs away :P

user58

As you might imagine, Banagrams at my place gets really intense.

Bart

@user58 you're part of the Webster family?

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

yeah, they're on the web a lot

... at some point I'll create a pun that will be funny. you just wait.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

Speaking of online dictionaries, my personal favorite is Vocabulary.com. It not only provides a formal definition, but also a thorough plain-English explanation of what a word means

rene

8:48 PM

@terdon only 50 or so of such accounts and none with extreme privileges (like a dupe hammer)

Bart

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog ooh, nice

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

huh unassociated is not on vocabulary.com?

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

^

terdon

@rene Oh wow. That's some impressive DB-fu. What are you searching for exactly? Is it something like (MSE rep / top non-MSE rep)?

mag

rene is a tsql wizard

rene

8:52 PM

@terdon it takes all users from MSE and then adds an extra row if that accountid exists in another database/site as well. from there it is just grouping and suming.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

Its Challenge game proved immensely useful to me as a high school student, as one of the biggest college entrance exams here in the U.S. used to test knowledge of extremely obscure English vocabulary words.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

it does look awesome

terdon

@rene Ah, OK. I was thinking of people who had thousands of MSE rep and not even 1k or so on any normal site. But I may be prejudiced, I had a nasty run in with someone like that a few years ago who felt he could come into another site and throw his weight around because he had MSE rep.

@mag I'll say.

user58

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog If you want to learn extremely obscure words, play Contact when Gareth is around. Sheesh.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@user58 Well, it no longer tests such words as of 2016

user58

8:54 PM

Sure, but still. Learning new words is always fun.

mag

I like to dabble in sede myself sometime, but rene is another level

terdon

I didn't know we could create table. That's surprising.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

(from vocabulary challenge):

> Your health is the condition of your body. If you barely get any sleep and only eat frozen pizza and jellybeans, you probably have poor health.

Bart

@FélixGagnon-Grenier I feel judged

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

ikr?

mag

9:00 PM

temporary tables

very useful when you're skirting the timeout

rene

and if you need an index on a column that lack one in the current schema

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

9:28 PM

RIP Teachers' Lounge: meta.stackexchange.com/a/337228/377214

user58

I mean, that's been something that Shog's been suggesting for like a month now

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

But now it's been implemented.

Zoe the transgirl

That is actually motivating

Bart

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog cool. Poor MSE mods though, but cool.

mag

seems like a good idea

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

9:33 PM

It means more FAQs for me to rewrite and update...

mag

a chat room with 200 people and no moderation sounds like a recipe for disaster, even if the people skew towards reasonable

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

May 16 at 0:24, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

"When everyone is super, no one is." - Syndrome

Kevin B

eh, i believe most people are capable/willing to be reasonable when they feel listened to.

user58

Also, from a technical standpoint, how are you going to control access? Manually give access to every new diamond? Manually remove access every time someone steps down?

Catija

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog please wait. It’s a test and temporary for now.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

9:36 PM

@mag Huh, you reminded me of this movie scene

ArtOfCode

@user58 it's probably scripted... I doubt Shog gave each and every one of us access manually

Kevin B

what's faster, writing a script or clicking 600 times

Rob

On OR.SE we moderated ourselves and gave the CMs no trouble and very little work when they checked in from time to time. Eventually we had an election and things continue smoothly.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@Catija Is the TL frozen during this time?

mag

not like freezing or deleting it would do anything

mods can talk past that

user58

9:40 PM

Well, is it a new room or was the room itself migrated?

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

I guess I meant to ask...is talking in the TL forbidden during this time?

ArtOfCode

shog threatening us with evisceration if we utter a sound is pretty effective, though :)

mag

probably gonna work on the informal ton of bricks theory of moderation

whereas the theorethical existance of the ton of bricks makes it unlikely having to use it

user58

or simply what was set up when the TL was frozen last time

Bart

@mag call it "Another brick in the wall"?

Catija

9:41 PM

@user58 New room.

divibisan

Good luck to ChrisF, JourneymanGeek and Tinkeringbell who will have to moderate it!

mag

@user58 an automatic trashing moving and obfuscating script?

Bart

@Tinkeringbell you can borrow my smiting stick if you need it.

user58

@mag automatic deletion + reparent + kick

mag

huh

Kevin B

9:56 PM

aquatic

Catija

Glub glub

Kevin B

🦀

user58

Well, it's nice to see SE taking steps to fix the problems in the TL, at least.

Although I'd be very interested in seeing that chat moderator idea come to life....

Note to self: Write up a proper FR with ideas for that.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@user58 You mean, designated chat moderators?

user58

Yes.

We've thought about it, @user58 - but of course there's no support for such a thing within the system right now. Perhaps it is time for that to change. — Shog9 ♦ 18 mins ago

David A

10:04 PM

@terdon not only that, you can create procedure.

Feeds

I was sent here to stop the robot that was sent here to protect the human who was sent here to protect the human who was sent here to destroy the robot that was sent here to vacuum the floor.

Rob

Apropos

Rubiksmoose

10:23 PM

@user58 I sounds like its kinda sorta kinda being thought about.

djsmiley2k - CoW

hmmmm chat moderators

:O

user58

TBH that's something I'd actually be interested in doing personally, so

djsmiley2k - CoW

It's something I've done in other functions in the past

IRC, large IRC channels, etc.

Though I partly feel like you could maybe make all 10k users 'mods' with RO/actual mods overseeing it.

user58

That's... how it works now.

Travis J

The flagging system doesn't particularly work well

That shouldn't really surprise anyone here though, I would expect you to all know why and whatnot

user58

10:30 PM

You need to go regular user > [10ker >] RO > mod > chat mod > staff for it to work, I think.

or even mod > RO > chat mod

ArtOfCode

RO = mod > chat mod, maybe

Travis J

Wouldn't matter

Rooms are excessively difficult to control once they reach critical mass and the topic of discussion becomes too open.

Even with a set of room owners, or in house mods, it is impossible for a small minority to influence a discussion in such an outnumbered scenario.

ArtOfCode

not if you give the minority decent tools

Travis J

Even with intervention, so long as a user doesn't have a singularly insulting comment, they are generally allowed to continue on with their diatribe. When it is constructive, as is designed, there isn't necessarily a problem with that design. When it becomes trollish, and it is ingrained, it can almost not be removed.

ArtOfCode

unpopular opinion: chat moderation tools aren't bad. Okay, they're not brilliant, but the tools we do have are pretty powerful.

4

Travis J

10:34 PM

@ArtOfCode - Sorry, but the history of chat on the exchange would disagree.

user58

@ArtOfCode For mods, yes; for ROs, not so much.

Travis J

Almost every large population of chat on the exchange has hit critical mass and imploded.

ArtOfCode

@user58 aye, that

M.A.R.

Thanks @Glorfinder. This is a good point. — Yaakov Ellis ♦ yesterday

Finder of glor . . . y

Travis J

@ArtOfCode As someone who has had to deal with such "tools" in a much larger arena: they don't scale. To put it mildly.

M.A.R.

10:35 PM

@ArtOfCode They're pretty good but their distribution sucks

Of course a British mod wouldn't say otherwise

ArtOfCode

@TravisJ [citation needed]. There are plenty of active rooms that are just fine. Mods are empowered to remove problematic stuff that's not clearly over the line if it's being a persistent problem.

Travis J

@ArtOfCode - I thought you would understand the references.

M.A.R.

—powered but not –powered

Travis J

You are aware how many chat communities moved to Slack, right?

M.A.R.

Star wars

They did? Shucks

I can't slack

ArtOfCode

10:37 PM

@TravisJ I can go to any chatroom on chat.SE, no matter how huge it is, and if it gets out of hand I can send everyone in it home for a period of time I choose, or I can completely shut the room down until I feel it's time to let it open up again. That's pretty powerful.

Travis J

No, it's not.

202324

sudden spam

Travis J

It's nearsighted and drives the community away.

ArtOfCode

@TravisJ that's... not the point

M.A.R.

@202324 dammit, I was gonna flag it

Travis J

10:38 PM

Yes, that is exactly the point.

You can't just hammer communities out of chat and expect that to solve problems.

202324

@M.A.R. that was a nice movie wasn't it?

ArtOfCode

@TravisJ No, the point I'm making is we have some pretty powerful moderation tools, which are perfectly capable in the right hands of moderating chat here on SE just fine.

M.A.R.

It's a black circle. A BLACK CIRCLE

Travis J

Again, clearly not the case when some very large communities left chat at SE.

ArtOfCode

case in point: the tavern, which still exists after many years

with many of the same people still in it, too

Travis J

10:39 PM

Mostly because of the mentality used against them, which was to just hammer instantly.

M.A.R.

@202324 Can't access YouTube, BUT

Travis J

Look at the C++ lounge, C#, JavaScript

M.A.R.

I just rewatched Commando yesterday

Travis J

The 3 largest chat rooms in the network, almost all abandoned for slack.

ArtOfCode

@TravisJ and some other very large communities stayed. It's just about what works for each community, and finding a way to moderate that works with people not against people.

@TravisJ Heh. Lounge<C++> was abandoned for other reasons :P

202324

10:41 PM

@M.A.R. awesom trivia

Travis J

@ArtOfCode I am unsure if you are familiar with any of these events.

I certainly don't have the time to rehash.

Shog9

@ArtOfCode that's the nicest thing anyone's ever called me!

ArtOfCode

@TravisJ I watched the moderation of the lounge happen from the relative safety of the TL... t'weren't pretty.

Travis J

@ArtOfCode It is just one example of many where the minority cannot influence a large group in chat. That is just the way it is designed.

M.A.R.

@Shog9 you're a "too", or a "Sam people Still"?

Travis J

10:44 PM

I agree, it wasn't pretty. It was ugly, and rough, and it certainly caused all sorts of problems.

ArtOfCode

@TravisJ the minority did influence the large community, assuming you're meaning the moderators to be the minority

Travis J

I am making that assumption. And no, it didn't.

It just drove them off.

ArtOfCode

the minority persuaded the community, one way or another, that the room they wanted wasn't appropriate for SE, and it moved away

it wasn't a pretty way to do it, but it worked

Travis J

It didn't work.

M.A.R.

Alright, gute Nacht while you folks dig up old history \o

Travis J

10:45 PM

You think losing community members works?

Is that not exactly the same problem the exchange faces today?

ArtOfCode

@TravisJ I mean... it moved a room that wasn't appropriate for SE to somewhere that was not-SE... I'd call that working.

Travis J

Look, we are pretty far apart here.

ArtOfCode

That we are

david

The javascript room used to be an incredible resource for people who needed live help with problems

now it's a sad depressing place

Shog9

Top 100 Tavern users by # of days between their first and last messages here:

UserId name                           daysSpanned daysActive first       last
------ ------------------------------ ----------- ---------- ----------- -----------
811    Shog9                          3375        1755       Aug 03 2010 Oct 30 2019
16587  George Stocker                 3367        45         Aug 11 2010 Oct 30 2019
115866 balpha                         3346        805        Aug 05 2010 Oct 03 2019
149052 NullUserException  อ_อ         3321        16         Sep 16 2010 Oct 20 2019

2

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

10:49 PM

@Shog9 Curious question: if Jeff Atwood chooses to return to the network and resume his role as "honorary moderator for life", will he have to go through the reinstatement process?

Catija

That’s an unfair metric :(

Shog9

them that writes the queries chooses the sort order

Catija

I don’t think Jeff was ever a moderator.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

Between his leaving the company in 2012 and until his diamonds were procedurally removed in 2017, he was an "honorary moderator for life", with that status having been granted to him as a co-founder of the site.

Travis J

He was user 1

Catija

10:51 PM

Not really the same thing.

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog he would have to have mods from every site he wants modship on OK it then 🤣

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

I asked later on somewhere if he held the right to be reinstated later given that his removal was described as solely procedural, and I believe I was told he could at the time.

Travis J

It was a reference to him writing the code for the database @Catija

Journeyman Geek

This may take.... 6 to 8 something

Travis J

1 is the first index that SQL starts at for auto increase by default

Journeyman Geek

10:54 PM

Practically SE can just do what they feel like

Catija

@TravisJ Was responding to Sonic :)

@Catija my bad

No worries;)

:)

11:12 PM

0

Q: Appoint chat moderators responsible for exclusively moderating chat

Currently, the way that chat moderation is set up, it relies heavily on site moderators moderating chat in addition to their main Q&A site. Moderators have some pretty powerful tools (freezing rooms, suspensions), and rooms also have a first line of defense in the form of room owners, who have sm...

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog that was fun, I was the one who made his chat diamond disappear :D

(Okay, that means I just refreshed the profile, but still.)

@user58 Looks like this is going to be contentious.

Rob

Seems to me like a lot of extra work/complexity for a problem I haven't yet seen

David A

11:28 PM

The worst behavior I've seen in here over the last week or two has been pretty tame. I'm guessing TL and other rooms might be a bit more rowdy.

user58

@DavidA ...this room has also had some pretty heavy-handed moderation going on, with a team of ROs with staff and moderator backup. It's a bit of an exception.

Rob

It kinda is, but, I still haven't seen any consistently problematic rooms except for the lounge some years ago

TL is also being fixed

The largest rooms on SO pretty much all have an active moderator in, with a bunch of room owners. For other network sites, the flags go out to every moderator - so I don't think there's a lack of eyes

Unfortunately with the change to TL, it means mods won't necessarily be in a chat.se room anymore

Undo - Reinstate Monica

Charcoal is another big 24/7 diamond center

Not as big as TL, of course, but we've usually got a couple

ArtOfCode

there's 7 in there right now

Undo - Reinstate Monica

who knows how active they are, but it's something helpful

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