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11:24 AM
am I understanding this right that you can only visit 10'000 posts on the entire network per day via normal browser page views?
maybe not... hmm something else must count as API quota usage then...
 
API calls count as API quota usage
 
ouch. Another post appeared.
 
when I ran it for the first time it said I had 9994 remaining so I was confused
 
mag
11:37 AM
@SPArchaeologist-様 pardon?
 
@mag see meta. Someone is bringing arbitration in the mix.
 
mag
I've lost track
not like it really matters at this point
 
@user1306322 it's not per user. The quota is global, daily.
So 9994 means 5 others used that API before you.
 
@Shadow per-IP, supposedly
 
mag
per API token and IP, afaik
 
11:40 AM
unless you have a write token, in which case it's per-user and per-IP
@mag only if you've got a token, otherwise per-IP just for the key
 
mag
ah
 
I wonder if ajax requests like on a user's activity pagination count towards this
 
12:02 PM
oooooohhhhhh, right, I wanted to ask that question to the room for a while now. Thanks for mentioning pagination.
 
mag
not to be confused with pagodanation
when all your results are returned arranged as a pagoda
 
sounds like cssassination
 
So, a little question for the room: if you have a web application that shows a table with some filters and you perform pagination server side and sorting client (javascript) side.... what will happen? Will it work? Because apparently this must be really hard to guess....
 
@SPArchaeologist-様 nope, never works.
 
client can sort the results it has received? if that is the desired effect?
 
12:05 PM
@user1306322 obviously.... not. But for reasons apparently I was nitpicking when I pointed that out to a coworker -_-'
 
JAD
there was a recent question about that on programmers
 
I mean if you wanted to receive say posts number 1000, 999, 998 -- you can then sort them into 998, 999, 1000 but is that something you want?
you can show this obvious example to them
 
@user1306322 that could work if they cared about the error.
the point they kinda made was that the error was "not relevant"
 
with the things I do I might need results like that, but I don't know what use cases you have in mind
 
@user1306322 something like a list of users tickets, sorted by date. You will see that it is pretty useless if only the single pages are sorted...
 
12:09 PM
right, but that depends on page size and load times, etc
sometimes I don't want to wait for my request to finish server-side and I want to sort/filter data on the page I already got
I'm guessing that's not something that users of your system would ever want though
 
JAD
79
A: Responsibility for arrangement of elements - frontend or backend?

BogdanAny decent back-end API should receive parameters that allow some customization or filtering of the results it gives back to the client. For something that returns a list, it's usually common to provide: parameters for ordering (ASC or DESC) based on some field criteria; parameters for paginati...

 
in situations like that I just say "sure, see how this works and tell me if you think this is okay" and show them the query they've described
it usually takes 2 minutes to convince everyone :p
 
@user1306322 I repeat, the point was not that they claimed it was working right. The point was that they couldn't be bothered to fix it.
 
but then I go home and actually have a good time using the same queries which are not suitable for normal people stuff :p
ah
 
same persons created a web api that has a method that should return different results to admin users and regular users.
 
12:14 PM
based on no parameters?
 
The api decides if you are an admin... via a request flag. Yep, there is a boolean "isAdmin" parameter on the controller method.
 
oh that's not as bad
 
Basically, the api trusts the client to claim to be an admin.
 
well, that part is bad lol
doesn't the auth portion handle verification of that?
 
again, apparently "didn't care enough to actually implement that part".
 
mag
12:17 PM
professional malpractice
you can't expose an api that takes your word for if you're an admin
 
problem is, for some obscure reason, I seem to always be the genie that gets summoned to fix these mess.
 
I still don't get how the api "try it" section returned less than 9999 on my first query of the day if I haven't done this on that page in years. I don't think I have any userscripts that call the api without my knowledge...
I've tried posting in the sandbox, commenting and editing but that doesn't decrease the counter
 
Maybe it's 9999 per lifetime ;)
 
cooooould be!
 
Whatya mean you've only got one incarnation!
 
12:20 PM
@user1306322 it is a zero based usage counter
 
Do you have an API key?
 
it is like some old videogames that actually had life 0
 
no I'm just pressing [run] on these pages api.stackexchange.com/docs
first time I tried today it returned 9997 or something close, but not 9999
ok it looks like opening this page just on its own consumes 4 uses api.stackexchange.com/docs/questions
yup lol
I'm guessing that's by design though, lazy design but still :p
 
12:47 PM
I just noticed that on some sites only a couple users have access to stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/site-analytics site analytics because of how small the sites are and how little activity allows to earn enough rep to access that, and I wonder if that's beneficial to restrict high level privileges like that
nobody has access to analytics on stackapps.com/help/privileges for one weird example stackapps.com/users?tab=Reputation&filter=all
at least there's one trusted user, even if they're a mod :p
I just think it's wrong how every site is either thresholded at STACKOVERFLOW levels of rep gain potential or "beta" 5k
it should be different based on activity and potential to earn rep
 
@user1306322 So, IPS and TWP get higher tresholds than SO? :P
 
possibly
I'm not even sure if the system makes sense as is
 
Do systems ever?
 
these are essentially moderation tools that we're restricting behind a made-up effort wall which might not be even good
some sites don't need constant improvement, and therefore the potential to earn rep on them decreases over time
 
At least the current one has two variants, so it's less confusing than having different ones for each site... and what would you do if a site over time becomes more active, or less active?
 
12:55 PM
change the thresholds accordingly
perhaps grandfather users who have earned the privilege once
 
Hmm. But that would mean people get privileges when they may not be ready, or lose them and with that you lose a portion of the userbase that does the moderating...
(okay, not if you're grandfathering)
 
I mean does the amount of effort required to be considered a trusted user really dependent that much on the site's traffic?
 
Nah, more on whether or not your posts regularly hit HNQ
 
maybe take into account the total rep on all sites, not just on that one site? like if you have 50k overall, it's counted as 10k rep towards privileges on all other sites?
you still know how to use the tools you have access to, on other sites, presumably
 
@user1306322 Technically yeah. Though I wouldn't know what to do with close voting privileges on TWP, even though I can moderate IPS apparently.
 
12:59 PM
I get that there are moderation culture differences between sites and that requires some adjustment but that's a different issue and I think users with that high rep on one site would know that by that point
 
mag
@Tinkeringbell Thats a shame. You should get 3k there and join the close vote fray
 
One other thing I'm afraid of, is people using this kind of things to put their own stamp on a community without ever becoming a 'real' part of it (meaning that they contribute questions, answers, knowledge)...
@mag Meh, I'm busy enough as is with IPS and MSE.
 
hmm... are high rep users not already "defining" their sites significantly enough already?
 
@user1306322 Yeah, perhaps, but in this case it's people that actually in some way or another earned the high rep on the site they are defining... not people from other sites ;)
 
I keep thinking "but if a user is that high rep, then they have already proven that they know what's good for the site" -- but no, I seem to be thinking of moderators, and even then people can disagree with some of moderator decisions
yea it's not a simple issue
I suppose counting other site rep towards privileges on a given site is not the best approach
 
1:07 PM
Yeah, even moderator don't always know... One thing I try to keep in mind (but often forget until it's too late) is that if you have a new user on your site that seems like a valuable member, you can always bounty their posts a little towards more privileges.
 
still, I have issue with potential to earn rep to reach thresholds to be considered even a trusted user (10k) on certain sites, which limits your ability to fix typos and such without having to go through the review queue, although I suppose if the site's activity is that low, there's nothing else to do and it's not really a big problem anyway :p
 
You don't need 10K to fix typos
Actually 10K is considered to be pretty exceptional
 
inline tag editing is 10k tho
it should be 2k like all other instant edits
 
mag
a lot of sites have mods with under 10k, even
not TWP, but still
 
actually I guess of all the 10k privilege items only inline tag editing is misplaced and should be moved to 2k imo
I guess I misremembered it as all instant editing
ah and deleting closed spam posts quicker also helps
but I guess spam flags work for that too
 
1:20 PM
Spam shouldn’t be closed, just flagged and deleted.
 
mag
hey cat
 
Hi
 
so are 10k tools not supposed to help with faster spam deletion?
 
mag
10k tools are auditing tools
 
3-1/2 hours of sleep and Gus is staying home from school. :/
 
mag
1:21 PM
you can see stuff that you might want to see to audit deletions, closures and check for controversial posts.
 
@Catija Time to organize a nap with Gus ;)
 
Apparently I’m making chili.
 
mag
@Catija I have no idea how you do it. I become intensely grumpy after 2 days in a row without my solid uninterrupted 8 hours
 
@mag did I miss this in the explanation of the privilege?
 
Fortunately most of my interactions are in text that I can review before hitting send.
 
mag
1:24 PM
ah so you do become grumpy but self correct for that factor
 
@Catija I'm not sure how that's supposed to help keep you awake ;) But hey, if it works!
 
That feeling when you write an answer, then search one little bit of syntax and find a dupe
/sigh
 
user351483
@Catija What are you doing up?? I only just told you to get some sleep!
 
@mag I’ll tell you a secret... I’m always grumpy.
 
user351483
You can't get around me just by moving to another room you know!
2
 
1:25 PM
@Mgetz At least you didn't copy past it , or simply ignore it.
 
@Snow Toddlers waking time is non-negotiable.
 
do 2k tools not allow instant tag editing or something? or is inline tag editing somehow more resource-expensive than using the full-size question editing page?
 
user351483
@Catija I have the same with dogs and their dinner time.
 
@DragandDrop my answer would have been more tailored to the user, but the other question did what they were trying to do
 
is there a good reason to have inline tag editing as a 10k privilege instead of 2k?
 
1:27 PM
@Catija Seriously? If what I've seen is you being grumpy, you must be unbearably upbeat and pleasant when you're not grumpy!
 
mag
@Catija Idk, you always seem almost infectiously well meaning
 
user351483
@terdon You know what makes me friggen grumpy! My dog eating my lunch, that makes me pretty darned grumpy!
 
@user1306322 yes. If you have to edit the whole post, you might remember to actually check whether the post content needs help. If you can quick-edit tags, you might just ignore the body.
 
so users at 2k are not trusted enough not to check the body, but at 10k they are?
 
user351483
2K users need the practice.
 
1:29 PM
@terdon I follow the “if you can’t say anything nice” rule unless I somehow get really grumpy.
 
alright I guess :p
 
@Catija Yeah. I really need to learn to do that... :)
 
user351483
My gran used to say "If you can't say nuthin good, then don't say nuthin at all".
 
@Catija but you can negotiate your own sleeping time by giving them something to do (e.g. TV) when they wake up too early... ;)
 
@user1306322 it’s worth remembering that the privileges were created based on assumptions that may not reflect reality. Also, apparently some are there just to make the privilege more interesting... apparently that’s why usercard expansion is a privilege.
 
1:32 PM
@Catija and vote split
 
yea these days I can just write userscripts and install adblocks to gain certain privileges for free :p
 
@Shadow I think you’ve forgotten what a one-year-old is like. 🤣
 
mag
my coworker's wife had twins when I just started at the company. His life is like a lynchian psychodrama right now
 
Gus is still waking up 2-3 times a night.
 
mag
wait, gus is the older one right?
 
1:34 PM
@Catija ohh... mine is 2.5 lol. Yeah, at 1 they wake up at, well, 1 am. No TV in such hours, you're right. :/
 
Younger. Bennett is older.
 
mag
ah
 
@Catija I think I found a game that is pretty easy on the reflexes and has a wonderfully hokey plot ;p
 
mag
light on the horizon, in 3 years or so you'll start getting regular sleep again
 
@mag until the oldest reach 14 then it's sleepless nights again.
(aka going to parties or have fun with friends at nights)
 
mag
1:36 PM
depends
some kids aren't into that at all
I wasn't
 
Very few
I suspect my older daughter will be special and won't be into it, yeah... but son and other daughter... no way.
 
@JourneymanGeek oh?
 
@Catija Outer Worlds
Its a bit like the newer fallout games, though trading a massive world for more diverse maps
 
@mag I'm not either. I'm more liable to stay up on my laptop till 3 or head out on my bike late at night when there are fewer cars around.
 
@user58 and when you're out at night riding bike, can your parents sleep calmly? It's the same as going to parties, maybe even "worse. ;)
 
1:39 PM
I’m guessing I’ll end up with the taming of the shrew kids. Older one is introverted and withdrawn and younger is a big people person. I won’t require Bennett to get married before Gus, though... that’s just weird. 😂
 
mag
I was always buried in a book or a game
more often then not I'd start reading a 400 page or so book when getting home from school and going well into the late night
 
@Shadow the first couple times they didn't, then they were like "whatever, don't get hurt" and went to sleep.
 
@Catija my son (almost 7) keeps saying he won't get married. Reasons changing, current reason is "because I don't want to have fights like you and mommy have". o_O
 
JAD
uhoh
 
1:41 PM
@user58 brave parents! ;)
I can do it, but doubt my wife ever will. :)
@SPArchaeologist-様 1) why no onebox, 2) Why??
 
@Shadow Awww.
 
Oh... this time you misunderstood, I talk about going out at night to parties. :) @SPA
 
@Shadow onebox... not working since it is a reply to a deleted message.
 
@SPArchaeologist-様 riding bike is uncouth? lol
 
@Shadow didn't you wrote "going out at night but not to parties"?
oh, well, my bad, keep it somewhere safe for the next time then :P
 
1:45 PM
@SPArchaeologist-様 I added it to the previous message since other messages made it be out of context. It was just "It's the same as going to parties, maybe even "worse. ;)"
@SPArchaeologist-様 :D
@Catija yeah, lol
 
opinions on the comments here? meta.stackexchange.com/a/337172/183800
if I may ask a neutral question: in what way could it be possibly appropriate to use that poem as a metaphor for any other situation on the network?
I think it would be very frowned upon and promptly removed by moderators and CMs
 
I guess you know my answer.
 
I see that it's considered to be a big faux pas to use it, but I'm not completely certain of the social rules here
I'm only familiar with that the american/western public considers it a bad tone, but myself being from another country of origin, it's kind of a ... learned thing? for me
I figured a CM decided it was a step too far. If it's possible, I'd like to learn exactly why
 
The issue to me is - similar to calling people "literal nazis" on the internet - that first of all the situations such statements are pasted on generally don't deserve it. And furthermore they show a great misunderstanding, historical ignorance or what not about the atrocities faced by those who underwent the actual Nazi regime.
 
I'd say using that poem in most contexts is R/A because it accuses your opponents of being Nazis, when in most contexts they are not actually Nazis.
 
1:58 PM
It also trivializes one of the worst, if not the worst, atrocity in human history by comparing it to our issues here.
 
so is the issue here that using this poem akin to saying one of the sides "are nazis"? if so, I get it
 
Using that poem is incredibly tone deaf and in bad taste
 
@user1306322 for me, yes.
 
@user1306322 not just that. Imagine talking to a holocaust survivor and saying "that's nothing, did you ever have your diamond removed on SO?" ... you don't get to trivialize it like that.
 
2:00 PM
@Bart awesome comment there, I missed it before. Kudos.
 
@Bart yea that's what I thought it was mostly, and was more confused on other possible interpretations
 
I apologize if anything I said feels harsh, but it disturbs me to no end when things like that get referred to as memes and the like.
 
The reposted answer is somewhat deceptive ... the answer wasn’t flag deleted. If it was, it wouldn’t attribute the deletion to anyone.
 
I know
 
@Bart You're absolutely right. Using that poem for anything this minor is offensive.
Not to mention incredibly self-aggrandizing.
 
2:03 PM
no no, I'm glad we were able to have a civil talk on a fringe topic without resorting to the trash bin for once
 
@terdon Agreed. It seems incredibly inappropriate for use here.
 
@user1306322 simply on its own it dosen't mean much
Some context might be nice.
 
@user1306322 It’s been trotted out at least twice before over the last month. It’s inappropriate and hurtful to some. I don’t think it’s furthering constructive discussion.
 
At the very least, inappropriateness aside, that answer is really not an answer to the question at all.
 
aaand it's deleted
 
2:06 PM
@Rubiksmoose it was NAA, yeah.
 
If someone wants to answer the question by saying that speaking out is the right response when you’re dealing with injustice... then say that. There’s no reason to use a touching poem in a loaded situation.
3
 
mag
That poem is a bit of a sore spot for a lot of people
considering its very real context
also, while SE has done some reprehensible things, directly likening them to the nazis is at best unnecessary and crass hyperbole
 
@mag I will even assume iBug didn't mean it like that. But there are certain parts of our world history we should not forget about, nor trivialize. Even if it's by accident.
 
mag
the intent isn't really that important either, it's the context
 
Maybe we should invite iBug here?
Feels like he has the right to let off some steam, and clarify the real intent behind that post.
 
2:15 PM
I'm sure iBug knows where to find most of us. Always welcome of course :)
 
The Tavern effect~
 
I think that quote was used by someone else in another answer recently. Can't really focus where, but I know I saw that on Stack in the last weeks.
could also be an user profile.
but I saw it somewhere.
 
@SPArchaeologist-様 from the comment on that deleted post, I think there were 2 answers mentioning the same poem
 
@MetaAndrewT. only thing I am pretty sure about, is that the other version didn't directly mention Monica.
anyway, it is not on the same question. The only deleted post is the one iBug made
so, the other one I saw must be somewhere else.
If only search wasn't so bad, I could easily find it.
 
2:40 PM
Some have already been deleted. We've been seeing that poem pop up on various anti-CoC posts.
 
@rene Update on solar debacle: it's been a week, and no action from them about defamation countersuit. I'm thinking more and more it was an idle threat.
 
that is at least some good news then
 
@Shadow my 3 yr old currently hates me, every night, as I put him to bed.
 
the solar debacle is now the most interesting topic for me in the Tavern...
 
I'm seeing inappropriate proposed edits to questions which are intended to be messages sent to OP or anyone who can read suggested edits, is that a thing on MSO only, among all meta sites?
 
2:49 PM
@djsmiley2k-CoW been there too, yeah. This hatred vanish magically when you give him something he wants though, be it favorite food, a sweet/snack, TV, etc. :)
 
@user1306322 No, it's a thing on all sites, meta or otherwise. There's even a dedicated rejection reason for that.
 
I thought anons can't suggest edits to meta questions?
 
@user1306322 maybe per-side meta, MSE isn't per-site
 
2:50 PM
but isn't meta supposed to be a bit more walled off from randos than the main sites?
 
@MetaAndrewT. It will be, hopefully, done in a couple of weeks.
 
@user1306322 technically MSE is a main site
 
@user1306322 nah... it's fine. @Sonic suggested hundreds of good edits as anonymous visitor.
 
@Bart I know about that technicality, which is why I'm a bit confused
 
@user1306322 welcome to the club
 
2:51 PM
:p
 
Wait... no one can suggest edits on child metas... only on MSE.
 
Club of Confused People?
 
perhaps maybe this was not intended?
 
@Shadow yup
 
what was not intended? Meta SE is a main site and ... meta of its own.
 
2:53 PM
no, I mean meta is not a place where randos with 0 verification that they're familiar with how SE works are supposed to be able to suggest any edits
especially not in a way where they can effectively send semi-private messages to posters
some wack messages at that :x
 
somebody out there is aware of the heated discussion and how this works and are sending people these wack edit suggestion / direct messages, I've already seen 3 today
 
What is this out there that people keep talking about?
 
@rene cold.
 
next time I see one I'll try to figure out the suggested edit ID and link to it?
idk if I can view all suggested edits here so I might not be able to fish out the rejected ones
 
2:58 PM
@user1306322 just reject as spam, and anonymous visitors won't be able to suggest edits for 24 hours after several such rejections.
 
oh right there are higher rep users here lol
 
@user1306322 you can see the review history
 
someone else can figure this out better than me :p
@Shadow is 24 hours per IP address or per post?
 
@user1306322 globally, I think.
 
on the entire SE network? lol
 
2:59 PM
Not sure, never delved into it.
 
It's like there's always someone to say a paper is half black when it's half white. Both sides are right, however.
 
@rene why on earth would you bring facts into this room?
 
@user1306322 lol no, on the site where it was rejected
 

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