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2:03 AM
Hello
 
@Gwideon hi
 
2:23 AM
wow....I picked a good time for a meeting. Gotta miss all the fireworks it seems (and I don't like spiders :P)
 
camel spiders in the middle of the night when in flip flops (cause our showers were outside) - nope, not doing spiders unless they are of the Man, Gwen, or other comic variety
 
Mini-spam attack over at Ask Ubuntu. Can someone help?
 
oh, someone used Dick, meaning something beside Orwell, in reference to SE (company) that's refreshing....except they used the movie not the book.......
Minority Report the book is lightyears better than the movie
 
Hmmm
 
2:41 AM
@Gwideon If "hmmm" is in reference to me: I'm just a huge fan of the book Ubik and other works by that author :)
 
Sorry for my blathering but I just realized something. I um can’t leave the drama alone. Also yeah I get that.
 
@LinkBerest eh...
PKD's stuff tended to be complicated and 'high concept'.
Nearly no movie adaptations really caught the feeling of the books
 
yeah, love it
 
but sometimes were good on their own
 
Blade Runner (original haven't seen the new one") was pretty awesome
 
2:44 AM
(Bladerunner for example... strangely there's a book called bladerunner which is totally different and pretty good)
Well have you read the book it was based on?
 
Electric sheep? yep, love both (then again on that one Dick had a major say in the screen play)
 
Yup
but many elements were different
 
yeah, love 'em for different reasons
 
Also the different cuts of bladerunner had very different 'feels'
 
one of these days I'm going to see all the versions
 
2:46 AM
So - essentially
I watched bladerunner in 'parts' over a decade
 
and re-watch the anime I mentioned earlier
 
so my memory of it was basically several cuts cobbled together
 
and .... clone myself so I have time to get everything done
 
including the original voiceover one
I eventually managed to watch the director's cut
 
Actually - I love that about Bladerunner. The cuts being different, making it feel like different realities, is just sssooo Dick like :)
fyi, the Amazon mini-series (Electric Sheep) was also pretty good but not the level of the movie
 
2:48 AM
yup
but electric sheep was more of an anthology
and nowhere near as good as love,death and robots
 
lol...my wife hates when I watch that and it is one of my favorite things on Netflix (after Stranger Things....or Seven Deadly Sins....depends on my mood)
 
is there a meta post somewhere that has a detailed timeline of the whole situation with Monica? I vaguely remember a MSE post with a detailed timeline. but my search fu is failing me
 
Actually the 20 minute an episode format too
@enderland one moment
 
I'm not going to disclose how much time I've spent searching for this, to protect the innocent :v
 
2:52 AM
@enderland it would beon the front page but someone decided flooding it would be a great way to protest
 
thank you both!
 
.....I think there are like 3 other ones too (if not as detailed).....lol, anyone else find that kinda sad?
 
Not really
Its what interests folks who are here for various reasons
whether its due to an interest in the community as a whole, events with specific people or just to watch things burn
 
or people who just care about a friend going through a hellish situation :\
 
burninate meta
 
3:04 AM
hmmm....I moved from Herbert to Lovecraft and am about done with my last Lovecraftian book. Maybe its time for a Dick book
oh! Neuromancer - forgot I found a copy of that at the library book sale. Yay! time to get lost in another world for a while
 
@enderland yup
That falls under the second :/
@StephanS not helpful
 
yeah, I kinda meant that in the "its sad that we need to keep putting this point forward" (WB lost a lot) but to save my sanity I'm focusing on some of the best World building books I have (for at least a bit) - or in Dick's case "world building then tearing down then re-building then...wait? where am I?!"
 
 
2 hours later…
5:13 AM
This recent PSA video by a certain gaming YouTube channel was eerily familiar: titled "Be. Nice. Our Philosophy on Elitism & Toxicity" youtube.com/watch?v=bSO-EC4hT2E
The gist is: Our purpose is to put out accurate information. We don't want anyone to force certain ways of doing things. We object to the view that we are the cause of unwelcomeness: as the larger community grows, there are bound to be new people who bring different mentalities and cause cultural clash. (By the way, we aren't saying all of our community is behaving in an unwelcoming way; just that there's a vocal minority among us)
 
o/
 
@ento there's also an increasing amount of fatigue over this
And its kinda worth remembering we basically had a massive influx of people into meta because of this
and other controversies
and well there's three different things going on
 
5:34 AM
@JourneymanGeek and it's wrong. Meta is supposed for discussing the software, by its own labels. CoC should be discussed out of Meta. Out of SE. --> Downvoting every further bit.
 
Yes, it's been escalating and seems unsustainable - in a very broad sense. I've been trying to write a summary in my native (non-english) language and it's been hard trying to keep it short.
 
@202324 I disagree
 
but if I flagged off topic and gets rejected, problem are moderators; labels are obsolete
 
One of the critical uses of any meta is to help set and communicate site culture
Or network culture
 
that was not properly labeled, learned through flag rejection, not cool
 
5:36 AM
it is a useful way to get feedback as well
@ento There's literally 2-3 long running issues, 4-5 current ones....
its in no way simple
Lets say SE reinstated Monica - that and the new framework for moderator removal covers much of our issues on that side
The new Ad system has very bad optics and ironically - is probably going to need a fair bit of effort to fix for what could have been a low effort way to add ads
The pronoun thing? I'm pretty sure that some folks are mainly here because of the controversy, and when it dies down I'm sure we can try to hammer out a much more nuanced way of looking at things. We'll be bothering the CMs with the painpoints all we can ;p
We did also fail a few people
that... needs work
that's actually the really important thing
We also have had a bit of a adverserial relationship with the company and some benign neglect
that... might be tricky to fix
 
They would have to fix like a dozen things for things to go anywhere near back to normal
quickly too, like within a couple weeks
 
@Magisch This will not be quick
this will certainly not be painless
And you don't solve problems at once
 
@JourneymanGeek not going to happen.
 
you need to break it down into managable chunks
 
@202324 there's also the view that you can't separate software and culture. By Clay Shirky (originally), I think
 
5:44 AM
@202324 I don't know it it can't
@ento SE has a monumental depth and breadth of talent on the software side
Even when there was no development on the core Q&A engine, stuff was happening ;p
On the cultural side - I feel to an extent they scaled it badly, assumed it could be shrunk and things would take care of itself
 
6:06 AM
Good morning!
 
6:18 AM
Morning!
 
6:34 AM
morning
 
morning
 
Goodnight
o/
 
6:50 AM
@JourneymanGeek reinstating Monica at this point seems pointless. Also, were I Monica, I would certainly not be an unpaid moderator. In fact, I resigned.
 
@Sklivvz Her decision if she wants to come back
But at least offer to
 
I don't think it's feasible
 
Such an asian concept ;p
 
lets not beat around the bush they need to issue full retractions to all the newspapers that picked up this story
thats the actual kick of the teeth that they havent done that
 
@Sklivvz Its worth remembering the concept of face works both ways
One can give face in order not to lose face
 
6:53 AM
That takes leadership
 
That is one thing we have never had control of ;p
Or even an avenue to post Jeff
 
I think we'll get a nothingburger in 4 weeks or so and after that nothing else
would you like some nothing fries with that nothing burger
 
First Jeff left, then most employees who understood Jeff's vision and were loud about it left, now it's the time for community leaders.
 
@Sklivvz There's only so much we can do
@Sklivvz don't forget all the things in between
 
You have to understand that SE was once a company with zero turnover, then starting in 2017-ish turn over went up, both because of the layoffs and because of the restructuring
 
6:56 AM
@Sklivvz Monica demanded reinstation several days ago
 
@Sklivvz and both of those kinda were cause of the direction the company took
 
Of course in any company this leads to a loss of culture
 
The pivot away from public Q&A started before that
 
6 months before
documentation, old teams, developer pages
I think that was late 2016
 
yo
 
6:59 AM
@Sklivvz I was also thinking the big careers pivot
 
what, bringing in jobs? yeah that was decided and built at the same time we started those three projects
 
I'm not a dev. I'm not really the 'core' market everyone talks about
bringing in? sure
but that was basically the product that got the most focus
 
still the whole animated ads thing stings a little
 
As much as the company lost mindshare, the community lost mindshare too
 
all this spam fighting but they allow paid spam
 
7:01 AM
And tbh, things did get better a while
@Sklivvz I doubt that SE is going to go "Hey, we shed a lot of you, come baaaaaack"
Even if it would be nice
 
first there was SO with a SaaS model; then Careers; then Stack Exchange; then localized SO; then SO with Enterprise (plus docs/jobs/developer pages); now SO with Enterprise/teams/jobs
 
and rebuilding community culture in the company is...
 
... not happening
 
I wouldn't know how to do that
 
It's really just a matter of time before the hypen site story repeats itself and something better comes along
at that point, we'll all be gone to that place
 
7:04 AM
@Magisch rehiring folks? Never say never, but I doubt there would be a organised effort to
 
nah, short of the shareholders pulling the plug that is not happening
 
@Magisch I think there's a few misteeps left for that
 
do you have any confidence they won't make those too?
 
@Magisch is SE a public company?
 
@JourneymanGeek Given the current leadership, there's a distinct possibility. The new CEO seems to be a "technical" CEO focused on profitability, not a "product" CEO focused on market fit, IMO
 
7:05 AM
I don't know what mistakes there would be
 
we had this exact discussion a year and a half ago and most of us were still optimistic back then, but the pessimists proved to be 110% right
 
@Sklivvz wait....
Are you saying te new guy could try to rebuild community culture inside the company or no?
 
The new guy will bring his own culture
 
@StephanS I'm a shareholder on a private company. One doesn't rule out the other.
 
Ah, but what kinda culture?
That's a critical thing
 
7:07 AM
That remains to be seen
 
Ya
To quote an old TV show...
 
at least the content is cc licensed
 
"I don't know you"
 
so we can keep it for the next iteration
 
It's telling though that the CEO has not said anything to the community yet (not even introduced himself when Joel blogged about him). Yet he talked to BI already.
 
7:08 AM
@Sklivvz I wouldn't be surprised if all that was lined up in advance
 
The new CEO has a background in marketing mergers and acquisition at a private fund iirc
 
@rene lol, I know, maybe my link to that message was misleading, but I thought he might know (more an actual question than a counterpoint)
 
that's not the kind of person to talk to anyone but investors and investor relations
 
@Magisch eh, maybe?
But also seems to be a techie at some point
ANd well
Its probably a pretty bad way to start a job
Reminds me of a story a co-worker told me...
server room was right next to our office and the UPS caught fire on his first day
 
@StephanS SE is privately held and also VC funded.
 
7:12 AM
@Magisch also his careeer is all over the place. Actually very typically of folks in the indian tech industry
So honestly
really don't have a measure of him
 
modern SE does not get the benefit of the doubt from me
4
I'll believe the new CEO is not a hedge fund liquidator when he proves otherwise
 
And in the current situation it makes a lot of sense to keep him out of it until things cool down
@Magisch snort
 
@rene interesting. Does Jeff still own a part, or did he sell all of it?
 
Its ok, I don't work for SE, and I haven't had a company I work for close down in 2 jobs anyway ;p
@StephanS I don't think anyone really knows
 
He seems to still promote it so maybe
 
7:15 AM
@StephanS he opines on it ;p
 
@JourneymanGeek let the users and moderators together elect community-selected teachers/companions who could best teach staff members about how the site works and what users want, and let them work together for a couple weeks or as long as needed until they are sufficiently in tune with the community values. Quite easy. Staff just has to want to do it.
 
It's really a shame they went the VC route
 
@user1306322 eh, so, there's a few people I've interacted with
 
should have gone and made like wikipedia instead and went nonprofit
 
So here's kinda the thing
 
7:17 AM
@StephanS and that is why it is private ... we shouldn't know
 
there's a ton of us who would happily teach and help out staff unfamiliar with Q&A
 
serious question time
5
A: What does the Stack Overflow dev team spend their time on?

Tim not a lot of (visible) features are being added to the Stack Exchange sites Do you have many suggestions for "Visible" features? Or any in mind? Are there pros / cons to these ideas, are they really needed, is the network broken without? On the other hand a few long-standing problems are...

 
But tey need to ask for help
Sometimes we do
 
how does that statement at the end not fall short of the rule regarding noise
 
But well - that also needs an investment back in the community
Oh
@SébastienRenauld it was done as a protest
He was asked to stop.
 
7:20 AM
There are a couple personality traits that unite all elected moderators, which make all of this work. They want to learn and improve. Staff doesn't share this desire, so we are unable to move in the right direction.
 
@user1306322 It isn't so simple
There's a few things I guess
 
I suppose there's also money involved and years of technological debt around the site engine :p
 
I share the pessimism of most people regarding current management
 
Most of the folks who @Sklivvz talks about didn't learn about the culture from us
 
there needs to be a major change in management to have any chance at turning this around
 
7:22 AM
they were part of our communities
But what's the value in hanging out on chat?
 
right now I don't see any meta posts by staff members who are decision makers asking for community input or outright for our help
 
The original CM team were kinda hybrid devs, which then pivoted to what was essentially a huge (temporary) community evangelism team.
 
CMs are not decision makers, so that doesn't count for that purpose
 
@user1306322 there's a poor sentiment about meta over time
@user1306322 Depends on your value of what decision makers are and real power is
 
whatever the sentiment is, how else are key staff members going to communicate with the community?
 
7:24 AM
@user1306322 Jeff used to hang out on chat
 
send everyone an email or something weird like inbox notifications?
 
@user1306322 can you blame them every time they say something we mob them (myself included )
 
Is this a friendly enough community for that?
 
@JourneymanGeek yes
 
@user1306322 I considered this a work in progress when I was a RO first, then a mod
I feel like I'm 10 steps back and everyone's sitting around a hospital waiting for their favourite grandma to die
Or that scene in red dog.
 
7:26 AM
have you seen reddit? facebook? yahoo answers? (rhethorical question) -- what we have here definitely is friendly, yes because I'm comparing it to the other bad examples, we can't evaluate such things in a vacuum
 
@user1306322 Its not what it was or what it could be
I can even understand why its so negative
 
it is not hard to ignore non-constructive comments when the percentage of constructive ones is so invaluably high
this is why people stay on StackOverflow for programming answers even though the reception is so cold most of the time
 
@user1306322 some stuff hurts
 
it's invaluable, despite the cold reception
 
Some stuff might need to but ... you still need to build folks up not tear them down
 
7:28 AM
we can all improve together, but (dear staff) please understand this is not a special place on the internet where you are 100% guaranteed nothing will hurt you
 
@user1306322 "Hurting' folks should hopefully never happen
 
agreed
 
We're unhappy about events and even decisions
I mean, in a lot of situations we often make things worse trying to make things better
 
maybe things need to get worse before they get better
 
@JourneymanGeek same thing can be said about both the members of community and staff
 
7:30 AM
@user1306322 have you ever been on club penguin?
 
no, it was primarily an american thing I believe, I'm not a US citizen
 
that place was 100% safe
 
I heard it closed down
 
@user1306322 It could
I have no real influence over many of them
I have a little influence here
 
@user1306322 then I guess you're right there are no more safe places on the internet
 
7:33 AM
@StephanS there's different sorts of safe spaces
 
leaders among any corporation have to be able to face their customers/clients. If they are unable to do so, I don't know how to react. Usually such businesses bankrupt and dissolve rather quickly or nobody heard about them if they're able to survive quietly under the radar.
 
@user1306322 we are neither
 
I'm looking for interactions ending with positive results. So far we're mostly getting no interactions and negative results.
 
And I don't think any other platform has the sort of relationship we do with the company
so.. where are we going wrong?
 
neutral results are not good enough at this point
@JourneymanGeek we?
 
7:34 AM
Sure.
We
 
if you pose the current situation as a challenge of sorts...
 
none of that is on us
 
@Magisch well not in terms of blame
in terms of our actions and the effects
 
we are not good enough at persuading the decision making part of SE corporation that they need to do things as we tell them to
 
we're not the ones who are going to be stuck fixing it
this gets bad enough, we'll all be gone to the next thing that puts up a sign "I'm not going to self sabotage quite as much"
 
7:36 AM
if that is the kind of challenge you wish to attempt, that is
 
at this point I can't think of anything the company could do to earn my trust back, I'm just sticking around to see what happens
6
 
none of us are personally invested into making SE's shareholders happy
hell, this place can go bankrupt for all I care once something better comes along
 
@user1306322 sure, so how do we get better at it?
 
Their saving grace so far has been that it's really hard to move the core community somewhere
 
Personally, I don't have a goal to stay on this specific site, under this specific leadership. My goal is to have my personal contributions and contributions of other users to remain out there in the worldwide internet, and to have the same or better tools to do what we have been doing for 10+ years. It does not have to be here.
 
7:38 AM
which is getting easier by the day :P
 
@Magisch its happened a few times
 
@JourneymanGeek I don't have the particular skills gears towards fixing broken corporate leaderships, sorry. Maybe try your luck with shog or other CMs
 
yesterday was sort of an inflection point
 
@user1306322 Well, its more the willingness to re-examine yourself
 
because so far there isn't a SE 3.0 under better leadership, I still have to consider this current site as the best available platform, today
and so I have no other choice but to try and fix parts of it that I have the skill to
 
7:40 AM
I don't think people really understand how special it is for people to work for free
 
@Magisch mmh?
 
like small edits, calming down people, asking for clarifications where I feel it is important
 
my goal is to make sure the contributions aren't wasted and the people here who had nothing to do with this mess don't feel it
but I have 0 loyalty left to the company itself
 
@StephanS I don't see my activity as working for free, I'm working for the good of the humankind. It just happens so that my work is being hosted by one particular for-profit business entity. That is all there is to it.
my work pays me back, I've seen it
 
@202324 the last person I trusted from the community apparently also lost their faith in the company's direction
 
7:42 AM
ah ya
 
you know how you publish something on github and a couple years later you see some cool app or script that uses your past contributions, especially as a critical portion of its code?
 
I'm ready to write SE off as a standin only until something better happens
 
@user1306322 yeah I'll give you that, it's a cool feeling
 
I don't trust just google to have my files, I also sync my cloud folder on other platforms that provide the same free cloud space. If there were other sites like SE, I would cross-post all my contributions across all of them so that the knowledge would not disappear forever is one site shuts down.
 
@StephanS I've never considered it work. I enjoy the community and many of the spaces.
 
7:47 AM
@JourneymanGeek you right maybe work wasn't the best word for it
 
@StephanS I get paid for work
 
I'd hope so
 
I don't have any illusion that I'm putting in whatever time I'm putting in here cause well - I feel like it
 
discussing how we can fix the leadership of SE is like discussing how we can fix leadership of say Github or Gitlab or SourceForge. I don't think it's in our powers to do such things. But there are more platforms such as Github to which we can go if we disagree with one of those sites' leadership. With SE there aren't any alternatives on par with its outreach and functionality. If anything needs to be changed, it's this.
other than slowly educating staff, what other routes exist, theoretically? hostile takeover? buying out the corporation and firing everyone, replacing all staff? that's not realistic at all.
 
@user1306322 I doubt we have the money ;p
 
7:51 AM
on the other hand, creating a new platform? though hard, sounds much more realistic
 
@user1306322 lets consider what SE took...
about 300 million in funding.
 
@JourneymanGeek mm, but if we'd ran some of those objectionable ads for a while... :p
 
Assume we keep it lean and cheated...
SE still had about 2 devs (including Jeff) and 3 CMs (+ Jeff)
 
for one, I think the new iteration would have to be open-source
 
Joel probably was in it too, and probably supplied some of the funding and fog creek's resources
They also had almost a dozen CMs at their peak I suspect?
 
7:53 AM
@JourneymanGeek Jeff is an amazing coder but I don't think he holds water to some people on this site
 
I think the idea of such a platform is generic enough that it should belong to the entirety of mankind, and specific implementations can be forked
 
But that was SE 2.0
@StephanS Jeff's big gift was being the frontman
 
I think jeffs big gift was to own his mistakes and keep his pride and arrogance in check
 
@Magisch Jeff has a lot of that too ;p
 
that's true, he knows how communities work
 
7:54 AM
@Magisch that is a very rare but very valuable set of traits
 
But Jeff at that point also had not much to prove and was a BDFL
 
@JourneymanGeek yeah but he never gave up on us. current management have given up on us
 
and I don't think those same skillsets would work the same way now
 
we're officially the enemy of management now
 
@Magisch eh, some folks.
Even then
 
7:55 AM
no, everyone, including you
 
lol
 
snort
I don't think anyone hates me
I'm just a wierd proxy for the company for a few people
 
not you directly, but what you represent and what you support
 
I do not understand why
 
@JourneymanGeek are you saying you're not getting paid by Soro? lol
 
7:56 AM
@Magisch uhm. Fairness, hope and sheer doggy adorableness?
@StephanS .... No.
 
no, some hope in the community
 
XD
I still can't believe that was a question on meta
 
you don'T share the view that everyone who is against whatever SE is doing at any point is problematic and needs to be gone
and management shares that view
that makes you also their enemy
 
exodus to an SE clone
 
management wants all users who are stirring up any kind of fuss out, which is understandable as far as heartless corporate interests go
 
7:59 AM
@Magisch I disagree with some of it
 
but that's also the mindset of a "want food, eat now" animal with no foresight into long term profits
 
@Magisch I fear worse
 
@Gyromagnetic we can all just go to the site SE copied, Segmentfault, the freest site out there
 
that the problematic ones stay
 
@Magisch I'm not
 

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