Tavern on the Meta

Glorfindel

7:00 PM

@ArtOfCode no problem, I appreciate all the work you're doing

user58

Gwideon

I prefer skeleton puns

PM 2Ring

There's some interesting diversity in the non-mammalian vertebrates, eg crocodile & turtle sex isn't determined by chromosomes, it's determined by the temperature that the eggs are incubated at. And all sorts of interesting stuff in various fish species. But the insects leave us vertebrates for dead in the sex diversity game. ;)

Scott Hannen

They are humerus.

PM 2Ring

There's a species of hamlet fish that mate for life, but the couple both change sex every year.

Gwideon

7:06 PM

@ScottHannen hahaha yes they tickle my funny bone

Lightness Races in Orbit

Skeleton puns just have no meat to them

Gwideon

hahaha

Lightness Races in Orbit

Still, they can be fun for a good ribbing.

Scott Hannen

Better to be humerus than sternum.

Lightness Races in Orbit

(As long as you don't mind people realising how un-hip you are)

(Which is often a knee-jerk reaction in these situations)

John Dvorak

7:08 PM

You have to be pretty spineless to make a bad-faith pun

Lightness Races in Orbit

Jaw not kidding

user58

Oof, not the jaw puns. The only puns more boring are the jaw surgery puns.

djsmiley2k

gonna need a bigger ban

Lightness Races in Orbit

:D

Mgetz

@djsmiley2k Try not to shark it

Gwideon

7:10 PM

Well if they have a bone to pick with my puns then I'll just have to throw them a bone and leave.

Ansgar Wiechers

@LightnessRacesinOrbit You just need to really flesh them out.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@AnsgarWiechers Yeah. Put your elbow into it.

PM 2Ring

And nobody has the apatite for tooth puns.

user58

Speaking of bees.

Gwideon

what have I done

djsmiley2k

7:11 PM

it's getting a bit long in the tooth you say?

Gwideon

bee nice

Rubiksmoose

@user58 I see you aren't a fan of cutting wit.

Ansgar Wiechers

Piers Anthony would be proud of y'all. ;)

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Gwideon you made a wristake

John Dvorak

back to insect puns, I see?

I spider could be quite a few

Lightness Races in Orbit

7:11 PM

ouch

John Dvorak's Puns Considered Larval

Kevin B

🕷

Gwideon

Nah it's just the skeleton puns have been coming at a femurous pace

user58

That pun was sick.

Gwideon

hahaha

Ansgar Wiechers

Hmm... speaking of skeletons, do dead moths count as skeletons in your closet?

John Dvorak

7:13 PM

I do find that linguist puns in general are pretty [sic]

Lightness Races in Orbit

it's "Bad grammar makes me [sic]"

user58

@JohnDvorak Nice to look at?

Lightness Races in Orbit

@AnsgarWiechers 😂

John Dvorak

yes

PM 2Ring

@JohnDvorak A linguist asked me if I wanted to conjugate, but I declined.

Lightness Races in Orbit

7:17 PM

@PM2Ring That must have been a tense situation

PM 2Ring

Well played.

John Dvorak

It must have, but it's all in the past

Lightness Races in Orbit

@PM2Ring Thank you. I'm very pro-nouns.

Ah crap, we're back

So, who's watched El Camino?

PM 2Ring

I'd post a chemistry pun, but all the good ones argon.

John Dvorak

> The future is always uncertain, the past is quickly forgotten, and the present is just a measurement error.

Lightness Races in Orbit

7:20 PM

@PM2Ring It doesn't atom

M.A.R.

Aw come on, that was good.

Ansgar Wiechers

@PM2Ring I might have a lead for you.

M.A.R.

For chem pun standards

John Dvorak

I think it was 0K

user58

Potatoes.

Gwideon

7:29 PM

i get the feeling that these puns are kinda inert

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Gwideon It's still noble to make them

Gwideon

hahahaha

Rubiksmoose

@Gwideon There are now active pun threads in 3 different chats here lol. Is it just that time of day?

Gwideon

wow

Rubiksmoose

Well, two are your doing ;)

Gwideon

7:34 PM

well i think i'm gonna go listen to some heavy metals

user58

*drops anvil*

Ansgar Wiechers

The stars are aligned!

Gwideon

haha

Magisch

@ArtOfCode new official response on your letter

ArtOfCode

where?

Gwideon

7:36 PM

yes please link

Magisch

@ArtOfCode 'ere

ArtOfCode

Ah yeah, saw that one. Thanks :)

so back to puns

Let 'er rip!

haha very punny

7:39 PM

arugh i can't comment here on that yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy arugh.

Lightness Races in Orbit

I wonder whether us plebs (read: non-mods) will get to see the response

Gwideon

heh my attempt to keep the pun thread going is dead now

djsmiley2k

I do wonder, if your entire job is working with said community, and then you're posting on twitter about other stuff while it's been how many weeks since any 'progress' M?

I have pizza th, this makes me happy!!!M!

Gwideon

i am sad

djsmiley2k

get some pizza

Ansgar Wiechers

7:43 PM

Now I'm hungry.

Off to Budapest.

Gwideon

speaking of food did you hear about the resturant on the moon

the food was good but it had no atmosphere

Ansgar Wiechers

I bet the cheese was delicious, though.

Shadow

Yum Yum

user473022

pfft.

Andras Deak

@AnsgarWiechers you're always welcome

Mgetz

7:51 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol no

Lightness Races in Orbit

aw

Mgetz

You're expecting waaaaay too much from a corporate entity

which acts exactly like a mob with mob IQ applying

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Gwideon sufficient for a lightweight meal though

ArtOfCode

@Glorfindel That should fix things.

Ansgar Wiechers

@AndrasDeak Only until people get to know me. ;þ

Gwideon

7:59 PM

yep

JoeTaxpayer

8:11 PM

@Gwideon - and that (atmosphere) compels me to share a true anecdote --

It was the funeral of my uncle. And relatives were discussing the restaurant where we'd go after the cemetery. It was down to 2 choices, and when presented to a cousin, one relative said that restaurant "A" was very good, but had no ambiance. To which the cousin responded "The people have to eat, you can't eat ambiance". Maybe you had to be there, but it's 20 years later, and this came to mind.

Glorfindel

@ArtOfCode thank you, I've fixed another minor bug and released v2.2.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JoeTaxpayer And what about restaurant B?

Gwideon

hahaha

rene

Great ambiance but plan a McDrive on the way home ...

JoeTaxpayer

8:28 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit - Well, great ambiance, but not as good food.

Mgetz

@rene not sure if I should make a mass storage or a McRib joke....

rene

anything goes at this point

Gwideon

god i don't why people get so up and arms about being asked to show respect and simple human compassion. sorry I just got a really frustrating comment.

Mgetz

@rene McRib shaped USB sticks are now sold by McDonalds?

Journeyman Geek

@LightnessRacesinOrbit pretty certain you ought to

Much of the stuff in the open letter, even stuff pertaining to us affects the whole community

Lightness Races in Orbit

8:36 PM

@Gwideon Being asked to is fine. :) Then, when the request is deemed excessive, you can simply disengage. Unfortunately, we're well past that on both counts, which is the problem. Once again, try not to take any of this personally. It must be difficult.

Gwideon

yes.

djsmiley2k

heh not sure who i was discussing with, how non-binary genders will need to be covered in media (tv etc) before it can become 'normal' and accepted...

and then tonight on telly, in one of the soaps, there it is

Gwideon

i'm usually not mean or rude when I ask people to use my pronouns but I am hurt when someone chooses not to. I will not deal with that person anymore and i wil see them as lesser for refusing to offer a basic human respect but I will never force someone

Kevin B

respect is a 2 way street

Gwideon

my goal in life is to be a compassionate, respectful human being. yes I fail sometimes but I try.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

8:44 PM

So...we have a user who is flooding the front page editing all of their posts to add in pronouns.

djsmiley2k

@Gwideon a question, with nothing more behind it than simple thoughts. Don't answer ifd you don't want to.

Kevin B

I dunno... i just don't feel like presenting the options as being a respectful human being or being a (insert whatever negative thing you want to use) is an effective way of getting people to be on your side.

djsmiley2k

You can't 'force' anyone to do anything, use a pronoun, or eating, for example

Gwideon

i'm not

djsmiley2k

but we enforce rules by restriction or coercing. Do you believe people should be restricted from using SE if they refuse?

(I do personally.)

Kevin B

8:46 PM

err... you did...

rene

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog raise a flag, please.

Gwideon

i'm sorry I'm frustrated.

Kevin B

and the CoC does

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@rene Not sure it warrants a moderator's intervention, and I don't want to risk a declined flag if it doesn't.

djsmiley2k

@KevinB it attempts to, I'm wondering if @Gwideon feels it's a good idea.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog is there no rate limit on edits? :|

Andras Deak

8:47 PM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog why, what happens if you get a declined flag?

rene

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog then don't point it out. I raised one already

Gwideon

on what

Kevin B

Like, i understand emotions are high right now and mistakes are happening all over the place, likely more so on the side against the change. but that doesn't change the fact that it cheapens the argument

Tim

@Mari-LouA You're right, i'll leave it now

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@AndrasDeak It counts toward a flag ban, giving you less leeway to flag posts

Tim

8:48 PM

I think the AU homepage being filled with my edits makes enough of a statement

Gwideon

i'm trying to be respectful i am but I also have to be honest

Tim

It's also quite boring editing post after post after post with the same thing tbh, I do have better things to do

Andras Deak

@Tim let me find the world's smallest violin for you

Gwideon

i will think lesser of someone if they refuse to do something that they would do for someone else who fits society's definition of "Normal"

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@djsmiley2k There's a rate limit; it starts at 5 and increases by an undisclosed amount with reputation

Tim

8:51 PM

Yeah so on SO i could only do 10 edits per day

rene

@Gwideon that seems a logical response, yes.

Andras Deak

@Tim it's a statement alright, but you'd be surprised of the message

Tim

I've got 10k here and 20k on Ask Ubuntu - didn't find a limit there

They do rate limit it a little bit though, possibly around 20 per minute?

Journeyman Geek

Hey Tim? Flooding the front page makes things harder for folks.

It is not a nice thing to do

And there's no easy way to undo it

Tim

@AndrasDeak perhaps. They're not listening, and I don't want them to let this site descend into madness, which is going to happen to if they carry on down this route of allowing idpol in posts and it not counting as noise

2

Andras Deak

8:53 PM

@Tim hint 2: you're not sending "them" a message

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek In theory, a mod could put a historical lock on each post, edit it, then remove the lock.

Andras Deak

and what you're saying sounds like this to me: "I keep saying that the library is inflammable, and they won't listen! So I'll just pour gasoline over the floor and light it :>"

rene

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog nobody has time for this ...

Andras Deak

which is only unreasonable behaviour if you pretend to appreciate the library as it is, unburnt

rene

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

@Tim this not the venting room about your displeasure about SE staff. Find another venue please.

Journeyman Geek

8:56 PM

They won't. Doing this hurts the cause of folks actually trying to fix things

Andras Deak

@Tim Let me make it a bit more blatant. By vandalizing your posts you're only doing the community a disservice; nobody in the company cares. By vandalizing your posts in the way you are currently doing, you are actively hurting a lot of vulnerable people in the community, and the company still doesn't care. You're exclusively creating problems with this.

Gwideon

^

Magisch

trying to protest by making it harder and more painful on those who are left is not a nice move

Gwideon

yes

anyways I'm probably gonna abandon all hope for meta if this doesn't settle down soon

Kevin B

eh, just use meta for what it's for. If you're there to see things get calmer... you might be disappointed.

PM 2Ring

9:00 PM

@Gwideon In a comment on your MSE answer you reply that you are ok with "they". Would you prefer a neopronoun?

Andras Deak

^ assuming you feel like talking about that here

Journeyman Geek

@djsmiley2k maybe not but eh. Better angels of one's nature

Gwideon

I would prefer they

PM 2Ring

What Andras said.

Gwideon

as that is the pronoun I have chosen to represent my... non-traditional standing when it comes to gender.

PM 2Ring

9:02 PM

@Gwideon Understood.

rene

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

Journeyman Geek

:7976034 eh. Some people seem to not. Some people do. Some people might be oblivious to anything going on at all 😆

Mgetz

@Gwideon I gave up ages ago

Magisch

@Gwideon we can but hold some hope for this chatroom to not end in the same

Gwideon

yeah

PM 2Ring

9:06 PM

It's just that it's really hard to do a pronoun survey of non-binary people at present without it getting trolled. And I expect many non-binary people wouldn't feel comfortable at present identifying themselves. So I am very grateful that Gwideon agreed to share that info with me.

rene

^

Rubiksmoose

@PM2Ring Trolling. You don't say >:(

Magisch

@Rubiksmoose plenty of people trying to make a point

Gwideon

I don't feel welcome here. I don't get why in the process of protesting a change why a completely separate group has to be hurt

Rubiksmoose

@Magisch Oh boy, are they ever.

Magisch

9:14 PM

@Gwideon It's not fair and not your fault. In the process of bungling up this whole operation, stack exchange has exposed nonbinary people to mockery, increased harassment and serial denial of their identity greatly amplified by the fact that they timed the change as badly as anyone could have

3

it is sickening that this is going on, and while the CMs are trying their best they are understaffed in dealing with the fallout because management once again either didn't anticipate or didn't think it sufficiently important to counter.

PM 2Ring

@Gwideon I assume by "here" you mean that you don't feel welcome on MSE, rather than in this chat room. You're safe here. The room owners don't tolerate bad behaviour.

Gwideon

mea

rene

@JL2210 that is now closed

user474678

Can someone move it to the Trash, please?

Magisch

per request

rene

9:18 PM

@JL2210 I can still use better dupes on that one

Andras Deak

show-off

user474678

I'd wager that it's probably just a quest to get more reputation out of this issue.

Shadow

I got too much

202324

@JL2210 I've been down voting every single question on the issue.

user474678

@202324 Same here.

SecretAgentMan

9:23 PM

@202324 No auto downvote for me but it would need to provide a new and potentially productive angle (so that's a tough bar to clear right now)

202324

FTR I read before voting.

Ansgar Wiechers

@202324 Feh. Anyone can do that! *duck&run*

202324

@AnsgarWiechers nobody understands German humor. Let's go to bed all EMEA people.

Ansgar Wiechers

9:38 PM

@202324 That's because us Germans don't have humor in the first place.

David A

If you want rep, write a meaningful answer to something. There aren't many new questions to ask.

SecretAgentMan

@DavidA What is this rep you speak of?

rene

9:53 PM

@DavidA on the PHP tag anything goes as answer ....

Ansgar Wiechers

@rene That's only fair, since in PHP anything goes as code too.

Sklivvz

10:08 PM

Engaging in an edit war and then locking a post to win it is a moderation faux-pas @CesarM. Locks are meant to prevent edit wars, not to "win" them with your version. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/390444/…

Kevin B

lol

David A

Why does that question even exist?

Andras Deak

because JonH deserves to say goodbye in a Constantine-esque manner

Sklivvz

I'm pretty sure we'll see a few more flounces

SecretAgentMan

Shog said JonH can use an arbitrary name if introduced as such. I think everyone gets what they wanted relative to the edit war.

Andras Deak

10:21 PM

I admire your optimism :P

Sklivvz

@SecretAgentMan Pretending not to understand the name was fictional, or actually not understanding it, was incredibly... dumb. I can't find a better word :-S

Andras Deak

Were/are there any signs it's fictional?

Sklivvz

It's a story, what makes you think the whole story is not fictional?

Do you take at face value anything you read? Of course not

Andras Deak

we don't know either way, so the defensive strategy is the one that doesn't risk a lawsuit

bit like Pascal's wager

Sklivvz

Sure, it's also incredibly nit-picking

Shadow

10:25 PM

@Sklivvz why the name of the bad manager matters? I agree with Cesar's edit on that one.

Kevin B

The way it was presented, to me, seemed like a pretty clearcut case that it's just a name. Would it have received the same backlash if it was a male sounding name?

Andras Deak

@KevinB of course not, but that's a different matter

Shadow

Don't call names, even from your own past.

Sklivvz

^ that

It doesn't matter, if it was anyone else, and a less charged situation it would be absolutely clear this is pretty unnecessary

Shadow

@KevinB like John? Maybe, maybe not. I'd still edit it out.

Sklivvz

10:26 PM

In the doubt that it's a real preson, just add an edit saying it isn't.

2

Andras Deak

@Sklivvz that would work just fine

Shadow

Still, that's adding background noise which is not needed.

Sklivvz

JonH disagrees and he's the OP

2

Andras Deak

It's not noise per se. It's stylistic choice which shades the tone.

any objective objection could be countered with either saying Nancy is not a real name or switching to a different name and saying that's not a real name

for extra points he could use a name which can be both male and female (and keep the "she" if he wants to)

Sklivvz

I mean: as a mod, I would never aggro the OP because of style

Shadow

10:29 PM

That's not style, IMO.

I wouldn't go to edit war over this, but I do see the CM and the other editors point of view.

Andras Deak

nobody should go to edit wars, ever

up to and including former moderators

3

Shadow

Ideally

Sklivvz

I see what they are trying to do; I don't think the way they are doing it is OK

Andras Deak

@Sklivvz as usual

Shadow

But we're not in ideal world, and SO was never in a less ideal place. So edit wars are just minor part of its illness.

Sklivvz

10:31 PM

An entirely avoidable part of it

Andras Deak

that ^

any one person can not get into an edit war by...doing just that

Sklivvz

Anyways, I'm just trying to help. If I see someone making a mistake, I assume (a) good faith and (b) that some advice will make it better next time :-)

Andras Deak

edit once, get rolled back, stop and flag, end of story

Shadow

Flag and? Mod will turn up and lock the post.

Andras Deak

@Shadow mods will mod

Shadow

10:32 PM

That's what the CM did. So...

Sklivvz

@Shadow EITHER revert OR lock

If you need to lock, and you've reverted more than once (or even once), just ask another mod to do the deed

Andras Deak

yeah, about that... :D

Shadow

Well... Almost no mods left.

Sklivvz

Shog was right there in the comments... :-D

Shadow

So "let other mod handle it" won't be possible soon.

@Sklivvz Shog got more important things to do... ;)

Sklivvz

10:36 PM

it's unlocked now, so at least there's that

Shog9

I got pinged to review it. Yet another tempest in a teapot.

Andras Deak

welcome to Stormy Kettle, Inc.

3

Shog9

Bob is a good name. I have two uncles named Bob. Opposite sides of the family. Can always talk shit about Uncle Bob without losing plausible deniability.

Sklivvz

I've done the needful

Someone else had reverted to Nancy

Linky: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/390444/…

PM 2Ring

Wow, that edit history sure is busy!

Andras Deak

10:43 PM

it's the nearest shed that needs painting

Shog9

I got stuck on Bob now.

PM 2Ring

It's good when you can say Bob's your uncle literally. I have one uncle named Robert, but everyone calls him by his middle name, Bruce, because his dad (my grandpa) was also Robert, known as Bob.

Sklivvz

@Shog9 the edit makes no sense, all the pronouns are fucked up now

also "Bob was doing her nails"? come on

Shog9

hey, who are you to say what Bob's desired pronouns are

Sklivvz

If we don't know then use they, Shog. It's still misgendering

user168476

10:47 PM

Can we just call 'em pronouns? Preferred always sounds like y'all can debate with me about what my pronouns are and influence my choice or something

Shog9

@Sklivvz How can I misgender a fictional person?

6

Sklivvz

Either there's a "she" called Bob or it's misgendering. Reading it, it seems the latter

PM 2Ring

Now playing on my random mp3 playlist The Low Spark of High Heel Boys by Traffic.

Sklivvz

But if you want to keep this crap on your site, go for it. I don't care if you don't

Ansgar Wiechers

@Shog9 Ask the guy who got banned from Borderlands 3 for misgendering a robot character.

David A

10:50 PM

@Shog9 what about FL4K in Borderlands?

Shog9

...dammit gaming

Shadow

@Shog9 Alice is jealous.

Sklivvz

Bob is clearly a dog, anyways

user168476

@Shog9 gestures to any number of novels, romance novels, YA novels, etc with fictional enby/genderfluid/etc characters and shrugs

Shog9

Wife has a cousin named Bob - pretty sure she's a she

Ansgar Wiechers

10:51 PM

Misgendering a dog is also a no-no. How dare you, sir?

Gryphon

@Shog9 Probably short for Roberta.

Shog9

@Ash ghaaah. Ok, so I may have misgendered Bob if Jon intended the character to be male.

David A

It pains me to link this... but knowtechie.com/…

user168476

....I'm not sure why we can't accept that oh hey we could have fictional humans with non-binary genders the way we have....all sorts of representation in fiction but okay.

Shadow

Isn't Cesar the one adding "She" instead of Nancy? confused

Journeyman Geek

10:53 PM

@Sklivvz bob is a fox.

😆

David A

Technically Legion in Mass Effect was a plural "we" before becoming a singular "I".

Sklivvz

I'm sure Jon Skeet knows Bob's gender

Journeyman Geek

Weren't they a gestalt?

Shadow

@JourneymanGeek beaver

Journeyman Geek

Also multiple they. Not singular.

@Shadow one of my root Access regulars uses a fox as an ava

David A

10:56 PM

Possibly both.

Journeyman Geek

@Ash erf. Needs to be handled properly though. Not some cardboard idealised token

user168476

@JourneymanGeek Yes and no but that's a whole other kettle of fish

user168476

(In general people outside the marginalized group don't get to decide what "counts" to those inside it in that sense)

Sklivvz

5

Q: What is so bad about Nancy?

This question on MSO got a terrible edit war. The OP told a history with somebody called Nancy. For some reason I don't know, there was very some important need to hide/obfuscate/censor the name or even the gender of that person. I never ever seen something like that before anywhere in SE. I don...

discussion

2

(with JNat coming to the rescue!)

Shadow

lol

Well found a way to get rid of some unneeded rep...

David A

11:04 PM

I'm tempted to commission the creation of a stylized logo of a dumpster on fire as a candidate for a new Meta logo. Have someone rig up an A/B experiment so that it's shown to people who spend too much time posting in Meta.

Journeyman Geek

@Ash and may not get it enough to do it right

@DavidA No

David A

@JourneymanGeek joking of course. I'd use it for my avatar at work.

user168476

@DavidA Here's one better - you could get a literal tiny one for your desk - 100soft.shop/products/dumpster-fire-resin-toy

Sklivvz

the only one true mascotte of meta is the "this is fine" dog

Catija

@Ash "Sold out". :(

That's a super cute thing, though.

Journeyman Geek

11:10 PM

@Sklivvz only most folks realize it's not fine. They just disagree on what sort of fire it is.

David A

Contained fires eventually die out.

user168476

@Catija booooooo

user168476

It does come in pin form as well but that's less fun

Journeyman Geek

@DavidA so do trash bins

No one ever thinks of the dumpster

David A

First rule of dumpster fires is do not climb into the dumpster, I suppose.

user384163

11:23 PM

oops

user384163

So that was my mistake

David A

Fire proximity suit

A fire proximity suit (also, silvers, silver bunker suit, or asbestos suit) is a suit designed to protect a firefighter or volcanologist from extremely high temperatures. They were first designed and used in the 1930s. Originally made of asbestos fabric, current models use vacuum-deposited aluminized materials. == History == Fire proximity suits first appeared during the 1930s, and were originally made of asbestos fabric. Today they are manufactured from vacuum-deposited aluminized materials that reflect the high radiant loads produced by the fire. An early manufacturer of the aluminised suits...

user384163

I don't think I was actually putting out any fires, unfortunately.

PM 2Ring

@DavidA It's also not a good idea to pour in chlorine trifluoride

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