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Journeyman Geek

12:21 AM

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ ah. I got nothing ;p

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ people forget it's not the first time.

FreezePhoenix

2:05 AM

@Rob Geez...

and myself

2:17 AM

mornmare

Journeyman Geek

arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/…

5

this is a good read.

SmokeDetector

2:53 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in body (64): Solve the hardest Sudoku in an hour. Want nothing in return. john. S@filmpow.com by John Schatt on puzzling.SE

SmokeDetector

3:06 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, blacklisted username (178): How convert avi and wmv to mp4 for html video tag? by Tonya Rabish on video.SE

HDE 226868

3:20 AM

@JourneymanGeek That's really something. It's something of a sad story, but also an interesting dive into Internet history.

Shog9

This one paragraph echoes the death rattle of numerous online communities

> Hassan’s response echoes a common refrain of these one-time LiveJournal employees: the inertia of user expectations could become almost impossible to overcome.
For instance, soon after Six Apart bought the company, a conveyor belt of project managers were brought on to try to harness the chaos of the company into something more profitable. These new analysts took aim at the site’s freemium model, only to be stymied by the weight of past promises. “We were always saying that we were fighting for the users, that we would run everything by the community before we did anything,” says Mark Smi…

I used to tell this sort of story to salespeople in the days after they joined SO. "We're not the first to do this sort of thing, nor are we necessarily doing it better than anyone has ever done it before - what sets us apart is that we haven't yet sold out, traded our hopes for a better Internet in exchange for keeping the lights on one more month. You are the reason we haven't had to - it's your job to keep the lights on, so that we don't have to sell out."

Because if you look at the countless programming communities that preceded SO... It's never that they set out to be horrible bloodsucking cesspools. They degraded into that little by little, bit by bit, one compromised principle after another, until nothing of value remained.

Journeyman Geek

3:35 AM

@Shog9 heh, I also see some of the other stuff they talk about, with respect to users... writ small ;p

Shog9

That's... Every software product ever

Journeyman Geek

True, but not all people who write software are comfortable with how... vocal people can be

and finding the balance.

John Dvorak

I fear the day SE leans on this and says "it's not our problem our experts are dissatisfied with the current state, they were going to leave no matter what"

Journeyman Geek

And I know a few folk would happily flag all the things that remotely seems similar to...

@JohnDvorak kinda the wrong lesson I suspect

Shog9

@JourneymanGeek I don't know whether it's possible to get comfortable. But... It's par for the course. Ideally, you have a team to support you, to help you talk with users when you need to do that and to keep them away when you need to work.

Journeyman Geek

3:38 AM

@Shog9 well, in theory, that's a significant part of what I suspect effective community management is ;p

Shog9

The software that you can change without complaint... Is the software that noone uses.

Journeyman Geek

(in general- not just the job scope)

Well, there's a difference between "We really need this feature" and "this feature was better because" and....

Shog9

There's a school of thought that suggests you shouldn't make large changes to a mature product. That you should instead write new tools, for existing users to adopt or ignore as they choose. But this takes discipline and care.

Journeyman Geek

(Ok, so I'm guilty of at least once going, "I like the old way", and not realising why the new way... but it was 2 am in the morning)

@Shog9 frog boiling isn't bad

I think one of the big issues with the Q&A platform was... it was pretty much done, and folks assumed it could run exactly as is till the heat death of the sun...

while it reached what it was with a metric (imperial?) ton of small incremental improvements

Shog9

In some cases, it's just not feasible. If the platform you operate on changes and requires you to change your software... Then you gotta change, even if everyone hates the change.

Journeyman Geek

3:42 AM

heh, I can't disagree there

but there's stuff that can ease the process.

Shog9

sure

I like to think of UX as an API. Your users build their client software - their habits - to rely on that API. When you change it, you break your users.

Maintaining compatibility is a pain. Everyone who has ever written a library used by someone else knows this, dreads this.

Journeyman Geek

Well in the case of the redesigns - I think the core of the changes were small. The problem was slightly wetware related ;p

(on both ends)

Shog9

But, it is possible. A well-designed API can be extended, refined, have its entire implementation replaced... Without significant breakage. It just takes planning and diligence.

Journeyman Geek

Add but don't remove?

Shog9

maybe

maybe you remove but leave stubs that silently forward, or compatibility shims that allow old behavior to be preserved for a time in cases where it's needed

Journeyman Geek

3:47 AM

ah

Shog9

maybe the API is entirely too tightly coupled to a specific implementation or form of interaction... And the only way to move forward is to mark a major version and maintain both for a while.

Journeyman Geek

heh. I'm lucky enough to miss the horrors of that at work ;)

But yeah, I get

Shog9

Disclaimer: my first task as a junior programmer years ago was to get yelled at by users for the shit my predecessors broke, so I may be lacking in sympathy in this area.

Journeyman Geek

though, not sure how well that maps to... people though

hah

Shog9

In theory I understand the desire to have a userbase who doesn't complain or get angry, but... Roses have thorns. The price of a cushy job is the pricks.

Journeyman Geek

3:51 AM

ah, yeah ;p

A little familiar with that

Shog9

@JohnDvorak that's the sort of thing people say when it no longer matters what they say.

"the users were sour anyway"

SmokeDetector

4:50 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected, toxic answer detected (159): Why is the Ocean water on the west Coast so cold comparing to the East coast? by user14894 on earthscience.SE

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 Is this feature request technically feasible? Is there enough system communication between sites to allow for it?

Shog9

5:16 AM

I'm not actually sure that moderators are immune to those checks. If they are, then a warning is likely feasible.

John Dvorak

QB spill from math.se: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/322790/…

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

5:46 AM

@Shog9 Your own answer says that they are, though

and myself

Free coffee! Yay!

Wait, this isn't even coffee...

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Do not gross me out this fine morning

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer, username similar to website in answer (54): Scanning receipts for paperless environment by viewholiday trip on android.SE

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

6:02 AM

@SmokeDetector K

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Url in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, body starts with title and ends in url, link at end of body, +5 more (791): supplementeffects.com/ultrastrenx/ by marilena on drupal.SE

Alex

6:38 AM

Did the "confirm new account" page change recently?

John Dvorak

> Why would T-rex prefer today's USA as its place to live?
>
> Because you're allowed to carry small arms without a license there.

Shog9

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog funny story: all those checks run after the question has already been closed; they run on the destination site. That's why folks can still vote to migrate, even when the migration will fail.

Kinda seems like giving mods a warning so that they can explain to other users why their migration failed is an extra level of indirection... We could just add a note in the revision history.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 Sort of already exists; the Community user locks and immediately unlocks the post. (Though there is a bug: the "unlocked" and "locked" events appear in the wrong order.)

Though it would be nice to note which reason was applicable.

Shog9

6:55 AM

It exists in the sense that migrations are blocked

Your rationale for a warning is to let moderators explain why

Could just explain why

Journeyman Geek

7:07 AM

Also in situations like this, we don't always remember to check the other site ;p

Rob

@JohnDvorak I remember T-Rex:

T.Rex " The Slider "

►

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 No, that's only the second example; it's more of a side reason. In the first example I mention, it would have prevented @JourneymanGeek from migrating the question and creating work for the SO mods (who have to close it as dupe and delete it), and my flag would have been declined (rightfully, since I didn't check MSO first).

If normal users had voted to migrate that post (should a migration path have existed), the migration would have been blocked. But as a mod migrated it, the restriction was bypassed.

Journeyman Geek

Normal users can't migrate to other site meta no?

otherwise I'd have told you to closevote and follow the normal order of operations.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

FYI I did throw in a close vote for "specific site".

Journeyman Geek

ah but that's different

and in this case the right thing to do

but but, I assumed that since you bothered to ping me (which I strongly discourage), you'd done due dilligence.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

7:13 AM

@JourneymanGeek Speaking of "shooting", have you ever played the original Doom?

Journeyman Geek

.... alas, no

my pc was too weak then

I had an XT for much too long and missed some of the classics

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek 4.77 MHz CGA?

Journeyman Geek

oh, we had VGA

and I don't remember

I think upgraded when the CGA card burnt out

was a clone though, japanese company whose name I forget

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

Did the Tandy 1000 ever come out in your area?

Journeyman Geek

no idea, but unlikely

Shog9

7:15 AM

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog in that case, why allow dup migrations for mods to begin with?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 You said so in your answer...something to do with merging

Journeyman Geek

also my dad kinda upgrades hardware as needed. By which I mean when it dies

I just replaced his... er...

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

> Moderators can override this restriction, to allow for the sorts of migrate->close/merge scenarios Michael describes - however, it is important that they coordinate with moderators on the destination site when doing so to avoid confusion.

Journeyman Geek

11 year old laptop with the cheapest dell desktop I could find ;p

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

20

A: Check to make sure a duplicate does not exist before migrating

I specifically encourage people to migrate exact duplicates to the other site. A mod there can merge it and delete, so then following the migration link will lead straight to the duplicate on the other site

Journeyman Geek

7:16 AM

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog so, here. I PROBABLY could have checked with an SO mod. But I was busy and trusted that you'd checked ;p

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, true, and also the moderator FAQ says that mods shouldn't be contacting other mods to ask for "permission" to migrate

Shog9

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog so what we need to do then is add a bit of text to the migration tool: "please coordinate with mods on the destination site"

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog we have 'internal' processes for that.

but imagine how much easier it would be if...

Shog9

The dup check is... Probably not very useful as a warning.

Journeyman Geek

also depends on how dupy it is

it could be an exact dupe in spirit, not words.

Magisch

7:20 AM

morning

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek Also, I edited into the migration FAQ a while ago regarding the "very similar" rule mentioned in Shog's answer, but you rolled it back; why is that?

Journeyman Geek

errrr

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

As far as I remember you replied to my comment, but it got deleted

Journeyman Geek

I'm sure there's a good reason but I don't even remember what post that is

I don't exactly keep track of everything I do

Shog9

But realistically... This is an edge case in a system that doesn't work very well in the common case. If we're gonna mess with migration rules, probably worth looking at the stuff that hasn't worked well in years first. Like... The extreme delay between identification and migration that makes just reposting the question the more efficient route for everyone.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

7:22 AM

@JourneymanGeek meta.stackexchange.com/posts/10250/revisions

Journeyman Geek

(also don't mod comments stick around?)

ah

cause its redundant, and folks should ideally check before migrating, mod or not

Its a minor edit that actually takes away from the spirit of the rules

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek What do you think of simply replacing that text with, "the question was cross-posted onto the destination site"? It's the wording I use in the flowcharts.

I think that obeys the spirit.

Journeyman Geek

but that assumes intentional cross posting happened

sometimes its good to leave a little bit of wiggle room in documentation

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek The FAQ very specifically states "exact duplicate".

Not a lot of wiggle room there.

Journeyman Geek

an exact duplicate need not be a cross post.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

7:25 AM

@JourneymanGeek The rule is, exact duplicate, or: ("very similar" and posted by same author within 7 days)

Journeyman Geek

it can be an identical question asked by someone else since problems are not always unique to one person

Well we're talking about people migrating it no?

and when they should migrate?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, I get your point.

Journeyman Geek

I mean, good documentation is essential in software

but people sometimes need vagueness to function in the right places

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek What do you think of the flowcharts there?

@JourneymanGeek "Cross-posted" is vague.

Journeyman Geek

which is good

I think FAQs need to be written for people, not perfection.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

7:27 AM

So instead of indicating one specific rule, we just vaguely say "cross-posted". If someone wants to know the exact definition the system uses, they can click further to Shog's answer and learn that...

2 mins ago, by Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek The rule is, exact duplicate, or: ("very similar" and posted by same author within 7 days)

Journeyman Geek

more or less give people the information they need to make a decision

not tell them how to decide

(which is why I wouldn't like a flowchart here, but I guess it works for some)

Its a substancial. useful edit, but one I personally don't think is an ideal approach.

Catija

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog I don't think you really need to mention q-banned users in that flow chart. It's impossible for non-mods on the target site to know for certain and the migration failing isn't that big of a risk.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Catija I've seen a few cases where authors say in comments that "I'm banned from [site X], so I asked here." It's to cover that.

Suspensions are public however.

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog I love those. Then I can suspend them without checking ;p

forest

State of the Stack 2019: A Year in Review

David Fullerton on January 18, 2019

A loooong time ago, we used to post an annual “State of the Stack” update on the company and community. Then at some point it became an infographic which was… listen, everyone was doing infographics in 2011. Now it’s 2019, the company has grown and changed in so many ways, so we’re bringing this tradition back and taking a look at how far we’ve come while being open and honest about how much work we have left to do.

2018 was a big year! Some stats:

Across all of Stack Overflow and the Stack Exchange network, we saw 9+ billion pageviews from 100+ million users over the course of the year. …

Small typo in the blog.

> Stack Overflow has never been about the company, or about any one user.

s/never //

:^)

Journeyman Geek

7:38 AM

._.

that dosen't grammatically make sense.

NO SOUP FOR YOU

Magisch