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12:01 AM
It's not about just this. It is about a pattern of problematic behavior
 
I always thought of this room as a place where I could communicate my way, without needing to turn my emulator on. SE happens to be one of my special interests, and according to the above "six rules" autistic people can talk at length about their special interests.
 
"my way" does have its limits, though.
 
The emulator is perhaps the most resource-inefficient thing that runs in my brain. I barely manage to get it running for the entire day.
 
And no, I'm sorry, but using "I'm autistic" only goes so far. Yes, you have a disability; no, that does not excuse you from the rules and etiquette here. Sorry for the extreme bluntness.
It's about 3AM on my end of the computer and I don't have the energy for this. I've been meaning to go to sleep for half an hour. Goodnight.
 
@Mithrandir (Not an argument, unrelated) I suggest looking at the six rules regarding autistic interactions
Skim the six headings at least
 
12:05 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog you are tiring everyone else out
I do not expect to see you back here before next Friday.
Please consider this the same as a formal suspension
 
@Mithrandir I guess I have to find some other place to be myself.
 
I really did mean that.
(for CMs and devs who see this - sorry! Feel free to have a word with us about this)
 
 
1 hour later…
1:29 AM
hhh... just woke up something already happened here?
hopefully TGIF...
 
One of those things I've found rather unwelcoming: When someone posts a low-quality answer that at least tries to answer the question and isn't link-only, and someone flags it as NAA and it gets carpeted with those canned comments.
 
@RobertColumbia the canned, repeated comments is something I would love to see go away
(I have a meta request on this somewhere. My insistance on hand crafted comments aside)
 
1:55 AM
Man, yesterday was a fun day.
I literally looked at a meta post, went it could wait, and went to bed lol
 
2:11 AM
and ugh, I know this room is supposed to be "full of stars", but I vote to clear those stars... 90% of recent stars are just depressing...
I hadn't thought this room will be "MY GOD, IT'S FULL OF DISCIPLINARY!"
Otherwise, I'll better just take a break from this room...
 
I'm sorry
and ya
I think the purpose of those pins is long gone now
Better?
 
I guess, thanks...
 
3:32 AM
eh, is this the usual weekend quietness early? 0_0
 
That, and the recent ban to talk to staff members :P
 
meeeeh
Talking to them is fine
We were trying to deal with specific issues people brought up without, well... needing to resort to hard moderation.
We... kinda failed there :(
(I mean, if only there were staff on now, but its probably late and quite nearly a weekend ;) )
 
Apparently, today is either one of these days or one of those days. That might give a hint to this quietness.
(Time zone is hard, let's go shopping)
 
4:12 AM
> Fight Procrastination Day
this explains everything
.-.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:45 AM
Work's really quiet today
I have a lovely sense of impending doom
 
Same. It's quite quiet here...
TGIF, the weather is too good for taking a nap~
 
I just want to go back to bed...
Work will be whatever I want it to be today, so at least there's that
 
lol
I have a few people attached today so my office is a wee bit full
 
Attached?
 
as in, literally attached?
 
6:03 AM
oh
they're supposed to shadow me on cases
I never have any cases when they're around
 
Hahaha that seems like it's working as intended then :P
Sounds a bit boring and bothersome to be honest
 
@JourneymanGeek aww. How is his paw doing?
 
@Tinkeringbell better
He's walking a bit, though his confidence on rougher ground is a bit shot
I'm hoping he's ok by sunday. We missed our dog run last week cause of rain and he loves that
 
6:47 AM
@JourneymanGeek Andy got a new puppy that looks a lot like him
 
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Wasn't kidding about the suspension - I'll talk to a CM to review but till then...
 
7:05 AM
BoltClock's so proud of Singapore, even it's shown on their avatar :)
 
@Somewhat That's a nice avatar. Almost nice enough to make me consider asking for some kind of functionality to upvote it :P
 
Why Stack Overflow? WHY???
It's nothing. Other than spamming.
 
Evidently, you registered for the Contact game (which I recommend doing).
 
@OptimusPrime Isn't there a button to turn those off?
I think I saw one somewhere once.
 
A J
7:17 AM
@Mysticial How long you haven't clicked on that reputation box for? :P
 
@Tinkeringbell I registered for this few months ago. This is the first time I'm getting a spam for this
@AJ probably from the beginning
 
@OptimusPrime Hmmm. I can see the 'inbox' e-mail notifications setting, but that doesn't seem like it covers those as well.
> Answers to your questions, comments, chat notifications, and more
 
@Tinkeringbell that is off for years
0
Q: Getting mails for non subscribed content

Optimus PrimeI got a mail from Stack Overflow regarding a chat event. I joined the chat event few months ago and this is the first time I'm getting a mail for that. I checked my email subscription settings and mails for chat event is turned off. I didn't changed it for last 6+ months.

@Tinkeringbell this might come under chat notifications
 
@OptimusPrime It might. I don't know, I have that thing set on 'daily'. I never get e-mails though
 
daily?? I think you interested in getting lot of mails in your inbox. sign up to some pirated movie downloading sites and you'll get enough
 
7:32 AM
@OptimusPrime Just order stuff on Aliexpress from 14 different sellers in one go, and you'll get 14 notifications that your order is paid for, 14 that they have shipped, and another 2 or 3 reminding you that magnets aren't toys :P
All within approx. 48 hours
 
can't wait that long
 
lol
Don't forget all the confirmation emails
 
sign up to facebook, join some active groups, turn on email notifications for everything. You're done
 
@OptimusPrime Ohhh no. That's a step too far :P
(I'm already in some active groups, and have all notifications turned off)
 
a question after 10 month gap
Last question(bug) isn't fixed yet
 
7:41 AM
@Tinkeringbell inbox? Because you probably always click it on the site, hence mark them all "read".
 
@OptimusPrime Personally, I'd fix that after new site designs ;) Because maybe the new design will fix it
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Yeah, that sounds about right.
I guess notifications in the 8 hours I sleep each night don't get e-mailed :P
 
;p
I think I get workplace and that's about it
 
Set it to something shorter than a day and you'll get it.
 
not too sure why
 
That's how it looks like ^
 
7:44 AM
I do get emails for my sock, but I don't check in on that very much
 
@JourneymanGeek Apparently I've caused a lot of people to not participate in the Tavern. Ping Shog saying that I'm requesting a 7-day chat suspension.
 
Devil advocate here.
 
Start by enforcing it upon yourself
 
Maybe a good idea would be taking a break from the Tavern
 
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Part of the point of this is hoping you learn self control.
 
7:46 AM
As you can see, I can't enforce it myself. I'm thus requesting that I be actually suspended for the next seven days.
 
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog how do we know you'll be able to enforce it after that?
 
If this is an indication of how you'll conduct yourself in regards to pinging, you should be prepared for more then a week's break.
 
When I get bored, I read all mails in spam box. Do you know? That's lot of fun
 
@OptimusPrime I know. I got a really great one once. Apparently I sat on the couch too hard and went over speed limit, and I should pay a fine of 600 euros :P
 
7:49 AM
@Derpy how is it related to anything discussed earlier?
oh wait
 
@JNat could I have a word please!
 
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard let's just say I don't really like the tone of the ongoing battle royal.
blue team, red team, both of them.
 
@JourneymanGeek sure; can you gimme an hour to actually wake up and get some breakfast first, though?
 
@JNat Sure. Sorry
 
no worries ;)
 
7:53 AM
@JourneymanGeek guess he woke up directly to Tavern ;p
 
btw, JNat. Reminder: less than a month left, then Megaman 11
 
user image
3
I'd make a joke about waking up in taverns but I literally have days when I pick up my phone and... ya ;p
 
I always make sure to leave all rooms I was in before sleep, and then just read the transcripts of the important ones until breakfast :P
 
You wake-up three hours before breakfast to catch up? I mean all rooms ... that is a lot to read back ...
 
@rene Sometimes. But those are the days I don't feel like breakfast ;)
 
7:58 AM
Don't you dare to spoil my joke! ;)
 
@rene I think my priorities are pretty clear from there
 
@Derpy no idea what you mean....
 
@rene I just did dare :P
Now what?
 
shakes petals
 
Careful! It's already starting to get colder... you might drop one!
 
7:59 AM
taking cover
 
Rene is actually a sword lily so the petals are razor sharp
 
Without petals @rene will get arrested for public nudity.... :P
 
That would be one of my lesser offenses I guess
 
@Magisch Definitely doesn't look like a sword lily
I can see that despite the blur :)
 
who is Rene?
looking around
 
8:02 AM
beats me
 
nodding at Balpha over the corder
 
@Mithrandir Finished reading. I liked the pic of fingerprints i.stack.imgur.com/cAwqk.jpg
 
@JourneymanGeek looks like the dog is old. what happened to it's tooth
 
Please welcome @Mithrandir to our team of room owners everyone :)
9
 
8:03 AM
@rene I'm guessing it's a narcissus?
Although most have six petals, not 5
 
Yay, now I can... clean up Smokey messages :P
 
6 messages moved to Chimney
done ...
 
@Mithrandir and kick people out for whole minute!
 
up to 5 minutes, even :p
 
Did RO in Tavern ever kick someone?
 
8:06 AM
yep
 
Reluctantly ....
 
user194636
Third kick is 30 minutes or?
 
as always then when other methods of reigning in the situation fail
 
@PaulWhite I didn't try that yet but please don't make me do that experiment
 
8:08 AM
@PaulWhite Yep, 30 minutes + the user loses the ability to create rooms.
 
user194636
83
A: A guide to moderating chat

TarynWhat tools are available to room owners? Room owners are users that have some elevated permissions in a chatroom. Typically, they will be the first line of defense when it comes to inappropriate content or behavior in a room. Users will look to the room owners to guide the room. The room owners...

 
@Mithrandir @ShadowtheWelcomingWizard kicked kenny multiple times in the Den
and I didn't saw a 30 min gap
 
user194636
As I recall, the kicks only escalate within a 24 hours period.
 
user194636
@rene huh?
 
google payment's department send mails from oracle@google.com i.stack.imgur.com/uEPaL.png
 
8:14 AM
@PaulWhite I just don't want anyone misbehave (or get inspired to misbehave) that much that I would need to kick someone three times, that is all, no worries.
 
user194636
Sure. I was asking the room in general if my recollection of the documentation was correct. Mith answered, and I looked it up, so all good.
 
OK
 
@OptimusPrime elderly and bad theeth
But its the best mod hatted pic I have
 
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard you forgot Infinite Recursion vs bjbotling...
@rene create socks punching bag and kicking it repeatedly for science?
 
8:35 AM
I'm more a fan of the theory and keep it at that. I don't need the actual evidence.
 
0_0
 
Oooh.. the temptation :D
 
9:03 AM
Ok, @JourneymanGeek, I'm around now; where should we talk? :)
 
@JNat TL might do
 
mkay
 
3 messages moved to Chimney
 
if any staff member has a bit of spare time on hand... can you confirm is this behavior is intended?
 
Are you sure it is even sorted? A lot of queries in SO don't have an explicit order by. It simply serves what SQL Server dreams up as most effective. That it has been stable over all these years says something about SQL Server and its execution plan analyzer, not about the query that is used there.
Needs a dev to confirm though, I'm only guessing
 
9:17 AM
"dreams up as" 0_0
 
Is that bad wording?
 
It's interesting that you seem to have a default image on all those default gravatars...
I thought they are obvious pock suppets...
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected, toxic answer detected: crashed VNC sessions detect and killing by johny brawo on serverfault.com
 
I've always thought of computers as deterministic
 
the SQL server processor is deterministic but it may be some weird determinism aka page order or storage order on the database backend
 
user194636
9:21 AM
> expecting order without order by 0.o
 
So it interprets "don't sort" as "expend the minimum effort to display this while paying no heed to sorting"
And the result ends up arbitrarily sorted
 
@rene look at the image I added. It is like the actual query was "Select exact matches sort by rep UNION select partial matches sorted by rep"
 
I think I better leave this for @PaulWhite to reason about. ... he is more qualified then I am ....
 
user194636
you're all saying basically correct things 😃
 
user194636
it's a shame SE isn't open source, we could help fix their queries for them
 
9:26 AM
Fun thing is that when I was looking at the Stacks Design system I got the impression they were writing that for a larger audience, not just internal facing devs. So who knows what is cooking.
 
@PaulWhite that assumes they consider it broken in the first place
I wouldn't be surprised if that was "by design"
 
Elastic search?
Well, If I search for a username, then I'd expect to get the closest username, so it might be by-design...
 
user194636
@Derpy Well I was somewhat joking, but: Fixing their queries does not necessarily require them to consider them broken :)
 
@rene isn't the design system sorta open-sourcish?
 
@Somewhat oh, you think the user search is done by Elastic? I didn't consider that.
@JourneymanGeek it is on their GH, not sure if they take PR's
 
user194636
9:37 AM
Most times I see curious ordering, it is due to the lack of a top-level ORDER BY clause, or that clause being incompletely specified. Sometimes it is deliberate, because semi-ordered results are "good enough", while fully deterministic order would be too expensive.
 
@rene I dunno et al.
 
10:16 AM
@rene well, good enough to see and reuse if you were the right kinda smart ;p
 
10:42 AM
@PaulWhite that's plausible
@rene also, if you write stuff in general for others to use, its probably going to be easier when you expand, contract or have someone new in...
(also while I'm going to occationally bat for design elements I love - I think the overall idea of a common framework they can build around is nice)
and some of the new site designs are actually pretty good
 
@PaulWhite do you know how Sql server handles a lacking top level order by clause?
Does it just keep db page & retrieval order?
 
user194636
@Magisch It's undefined behaviour. In practice, there are many variables, including whether the original read was from an ordered structure or not, whether the read was requested with Ordered:True or not, the isolation level in effect, parallelism effects, prefetch and read-ahead interactions, other internal behaviours of other visible and invisible elements of the execution plan.
 
@PaulWhite undefined behavior in the c sense of the word (technically unpermitted, anything goes, including complete execution failure) or respective to the ordering of the actual data?
 
user194636
11:07 AM
@Magisch Not quite as dramatic as c, undefined order. Whether other effects might be seen e.g. false duplicates depends on concurrency and isolation level.
 
user194636
Quick demo of the unexpected ordering thing: sqlfiddle.com/#!18/d3773/4
 
user194636
(unordered prefetching on the nested loops join being the cause there)
 
Hi guys. Yesterday I found a user committing loads of plagiarism. I've flagged plenty of answers and also done so today. Now I ran out of flags for the day, which is fine... But! I just found this user made another account. Tomorrow I'll be on holiday for a week so I can't flag it then. What should I do?
 
@DavidWalschots ow
what site?
 
11:17 AM
ah
 
@DavidWalschots I'd say poke a mod in chat ;)
 
Flag for mod attention to watch out for the user?
^ that works too
 
@Somewhat Out of flags..
 
@Somewhat he's out of flags
 
First time using chat. Let me figure out who the mods are!
 
user194636
11:18 AM
@DavidWalschots Their names appear in blue.
 
@DavidWalschots they'll probably be somewhere on the SO server
 
@PaulWhite thanks!
 
@DavidWalschots just out of curiosity (and cause I know a few regulars on SO poke their heads in... )
who're the users, and how do you know its the same one?
 
Just find one on SO and ask them the same question you just asked here, and you should be fine :)
 
actually more the latter
calling them out here might not be a great idea
 
11:20 AM
@DavidWalschots in case you didn't notice, Chat.SO is on a different place than here (Chat.MSE)
 
Indeed
 
@Somewhat ._. I should have been clearer there ;)
 
I figured it is the same one because the only difference is a space in the username and the jobs and interests are the same ;-). I won't mention the name.
 
@Somewhat thanks
Have a pleasant day all! :-D
 
11:27 AM
You too :)
So far, my day is going pleasantly, I think. I still want to go back to bed though.
 
lol
I wanna go hooooomeeeeeee
 
Ehhh yeah. That's a prerequisite for 'back to bed'
 
ok, packing my stuff. So... will be swapping to the sock ;)
 
Hi sock!
 
Hi
(since I use my personal laptop at work and this will save me some time
 
11:30 AM
Hehehehe. Did your shadows learn anything from you today?
(also, that was fast...)
 
user194636
Why the sock?
 
Town hall meeting with pizza! Except I was too late to take even a slice ._.
 
@Somewhat :( ... ours never have pizza. :(
Ours aren't mandatory either, so I can just not go.
I hope you did bring something else to eat?
 
I did get a mini donut, so it's okay :p
 
Oh good. To be honest, I'd rather have the donut than pizza ;)
 
11:42 AM
nope
they missed the one case I had
 
Nice and quiet Friday, I understand? :)
 
@PaulWhite TIL
So it's more of a "do this query as efficiently as possible, without expending any effort on ordering" kind of instruction
 
@PaulWhite packed up my personal laptop
 
user194636
@Magisch Perhaps "in a reasonable fashion" would be more accurate than "as efficiently as possible", since optimizer plan space search is deliberately not exhaustive (or anything like). Also maybe: "Disregard final output order".
 
user194636
@Aibobot Yeah I was wondering why you have a sock at all (and it doesn't describe itself as such on the chat profile). Just curious.
 
11:50 AM
@PaulWhite used to actually. Can't remember why I changed it
 
@PaulWhite kali linux snark :P
 
As to why - eh, I may want to be on SE on a less trusted system
 
@PaulWhite wouldn't reasonable limits on plan composition fall under "execute this as efficiently as possible" e.g. someone sat down and made a decision about how exhaustive a plan optimization would make sense in respect to how often identical queries are executed?
 
@Mithrandir THAT STARTED LATER!
 
user194636
@Magisch maybe, yes, it depends how one chooses to interpret the phrase.
 
user194636
11:52 AM
I mean it's not like the optimizer ever goes looking for inefficient plans specifically
 
Like if I have a query that unoptimized would take 5s but forming an exhaustive execution plan to take it down to 1s would take 6s in and of itself, to sort of find the best middle ground that works for most queries.
 
user194636
@Magisch Sure, and there's a fundamental tension between finding a good enough plan quickly (for a single execution), and finding a plan that will repay the investment when executed x times.
 
Perhaps that could be solved by intelligent execution plan caching and implementing different O Levels for creation
 
user194636
12:12 PM
Modern versions of SQL Server are indeed moving toward having more feedback from previous executions to improve plan quality.
 
user194636
The optimizer has always had (since 7.0) multiple phases of optimization, reserving more effort and more complex investigations for queries that appear to justify it.
 
would be interesting since I'd wager most executed queries are at least syntactically similar so if there was a way to detect that repeat offenders could get cached generalized execution plans
I think this already works if you truly parameterize the query
 
user194636
Yes that's right, and newer things like adaptive join help when e.g. hash/nested loops join should be a runtime decision.
 
goes to show how little I actually know about SQL :p
 
user194636
There's always more to know about everything, right?
 
12:17 PM
right
 
No one knows about SQL. They merely hope to survive it :o
 
user194636
aw JG so mean 😃
 
user194636
you should see me try to write C#
 
^ So far it looks good. Now I don't know about your handwriting, maybe you should stick to typing...
 
@PaulWhite you should see my SQL queries
unoptimized would be a euphemism
 
user194636
12:21 PM
ha ha ha
 
well if you're active on code review you may have seen my sql writing
 
user194636
I browse the site from time to time but have only recently started contibuting at all
 
user194636
I wish I had more time
 
wait you were one of the reviewers on my last query
5
Q: Find how much reputation a user had on a given date

MagischI saw this question on MSE and went ahead and wrote a solution to it: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/313561/determining-users-reputation-as-of-particular-date This calculates the reputation a user should have had at a certain date. I attempt to factor in everything that SEDE allows me...

 
user194636
oh yes! small world eh
 
12:23 PM
That answer looks impressive :)
I don't know much about SQL, but I'm impressed by the pictures and length
 
user194636
Well gosh thanks
 
Curious... how long did it take to write that one, and get all those pictures?
 
user194636
@Tinkeringbell Um, it's a while ago, but I think I spent most of the day on it. Not solidly, but in between other stuff.
 
(maybe a better question: Did you make those images yourself?)
@PaulWhite Pfft... That's a long time!
 
user194636
Well they're screenshots from the Plan Explorer tool, so no I can't claim any artistic credit.
 
user194636
12:26 PM
@Tinkeringbell Yeah but it was an interesting question, and I enjoyed answering so all good.
 
Still impressive.
 
user194636
k now you're just embarrassing me 😳
 
@PaulWhite Oh. Sorry. Okay, the answer is okayish
 
user194636
much better
 
It really doesn't show you worked on that for a day ;P
 
user194636
12:28 PM
ha ha!
 
I should put a bounty on that
 
user194636
flagged
 
Yeah, threatening people with bounties is very offensive.
 
Maaaan
 
WildWildWest.SE
 
12:29 PM
Nooooo not the comfy beeeeed
 
@JourneymanGeek ? I'm excluded?
 
@Tinkeringbell my bad.
Biiiiiirrrdddssssssss
 
@JourneymanGeek Just kidding!
@JourneymanGeek Hahahaha :D
 
(actually I had some bounty related drama on my site)
 
It actually took some time for that to sink in and register.
 
12:30 PM
We have Tinkeringbell, Infinite Recursion, and Taryn....
 
Asked one party to keep cool, then...
Went to bed :p
 
all are female and using bird avatar
coindicence doesn't mean correlation...
 
Just about two hours left and I can go nap on the train I guess.
 
I don't recall the middle one
 
@Somewhat To be honest, I had a giraffe, a branch with snow, tulips, and a picture of myself before the parrot. I picked the parrot for a mutiny in TAS, and haven't changed it since ;)
 
12:32 PM
we should bring back the regularly scheduled mutiny
 
Mutiny?
 
also hi lurking g3rv4
 
@Magisch I like the impromptu ones...
We scheduled it once, and it didn't really take off
 
I have literally had Ash (the dog) as an ava nearly the entire time I have been on SU
 
12:33 PM
still an RO on here, but never appear anymore...
 
Not sure what I will do when he eventually retires
 
@JourneymanGeek Keep it in loving memory?
 
Awww, I miss Inf
 
@Bart Was she more fun than me? <trick question>
 
12:46 PM
I hate you all equally
 
🙃
 
Then why do you miss Inf in particular <next trick question>
 
She was an admirable nemesis.
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: Adding comments to a list item by saieximindia on sharepoint.SE
 
@Bart So I'm not good enough?
 
12:48 PM
Give it time
 
Give it time, give it time... I want answers, now! :P
And a proper internet connection... it's Friday, where's my music!
 
@Tinkeringbell maybe go sepia
@Tinkeringbell he has terrible aim. Needs glasses
 
user194636
@Tinkeringbell you're asking for a Rebecca Black song?
 
Poor Rebecca... she's always associated with that song, even though she's done a lot of other things.
 
user194636
I confess ignorance
 
@Mithrandir she has?
 
@PaulWhite Nope. My spotify keeps lagging
 
user194636
could be worse I suppose
 
@PaulWhite Oh, it could be. Don't ask :P
 
I'll just put a random Friday song then...
 
12:57 PM
@Somewhat Ooh that's a good friday song!
It goes best with ketchup: youtube.com/watch?v=AMT698ArSfQ
 
.... we're old :p
 
Am not!
I grew up with this: youtube.com/watch?v=oZEbq2xC00U
 
That's not growing up.
 
Hahaha Hmmm. I grew older with it, then :P
 
1:39 PM
@JourneymanGeek Exactly proves my point.
 
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