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Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
12:00 AM
While SE staff do respond quickly, the way you are going about this is wrong and a drain on resources
It is making the tavern a much less pleasant place
2
We've talked a significant number of times about this.
 
 
1 hour later…
Something Bad Happened
Something Bad Happened
1:07 AM
status-i-have-no-clue
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
1:39 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I think it's possible, but then it's back to maintenance hell again
 
forest
forest
Oh my god, how are hyperlinks still underlined?
Did they not fix that?
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog We should be grateful that SE still respond much better than others
Unlike.... oh yeah, Android bug tracker.
 
forest
forest
@Somewhat I dunno, other sites at least tell you to screw off and that they don't want feedback. They are at least honest about it.
SE just prefers to lie to your face.
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
2:07 AM
@forest I'm fine with that, I just don't like it in duplicate target links
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@forest I'm sure telling people they are going to lie to your face so nothing matters is a great way to get things changed
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
@JourneymanGeek Sorry about that.
@Somewhat You make a good point.
@Somewhat Yeah, I've been taking that for granted a little too much.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I'd like to see change, not apologies please
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
@forest If you don't like it, there's always an option: just write or ask for a user script.
 
forest
forest
2:24 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog It would be a pain to maintain a userscript to revert these changes. Reverting underlined links is easy enough, but it's just the tip of the iceberg.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Imagine how it looks in links in <pre> or <code>!
I don't want my commands to be underlined if I link to their manpage.
@JourneymanGeek It's not like they read it anyway.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
2:42 AM
@forest I'm sure a lot of it gets read
 
forest
forest
And subsequently written to /dev/null :P
 
Something Bad Happened
Something Bad Happened
I like underlined links.
 
forest
forest
2:58 AM
O_o
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
I have a suggestion on meta to how to do it better ;)
 
forest
forest
Link?
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
12
Q: Could we have link underlines in different/complementary colours to the text?

Journeyman GeekWhile whinging about the underlines on text, I pointed out that this site's design worked well, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. A bunch of folks pointed out a few technical details - that it was a shadow, not an underline, but since it is a different colour than the text it flowed a li...

feature-request design
 
forest
forest
I guess that would work, though it's still not ideal.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
It's a reasonable compromise.imo
Looks better but still maintains accessibility
 
forest
forest
3:05 AM
I just don't get why they call this an accessibility issue. 1) People who are colorblind can actually see colors, they are just dichromats so some colors look the same to them, and 2) people who are blind use software that knows when a link is a link, without enclosing the entire thing in <u>.
And it's harmful to accessibility for those of us who do not like the visual assault, and especially people with OCD.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
Oh apparently it's a w3c recommendation
 
forest
forest
That's... bizarre.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/… I'm told its related to this
 
forest
forest
> Without color
But we have color.
> In this case, providing the information conveyed with color through another visual means ensures users who cannot see color can still perceive the information.
This is based on the incorrect understanding that people who are color blind actually cannot see color. They can, they just see certain colors as identical to certain other colors. They don't see in greyscale (true achromatopsia is insanely rare).
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
Well without relying totally on it
Well, yell at the w3c. Maybe they'll listen
 
forest
forest
3:09 AM
How old is that?
It mentions monochromatic screens. Anyone who, for whatever reason, hooks up their internet-capable computer to a 50s monitor through component is probably going to be using software that automatically underlines links. Same with people who use text-based browsers like lynx. They automatically show what is a link.
Or... why not just add an accessibility button that turns on those features, like some operating systems have that does things like enhances contrast?
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
 
 
2 hours later…
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
5:13 AM
@forest no idea but apparently it's part of a currently used standard people build for
 
Optimus Prime
Optimus Prime
5:39 AM
He was just supposed to lick the ice cream but ended up eating half of it💀 https://t.co/lmWhDkpAmb
Tweeted by Ldreyes0807 on September 20, 2018 at 3:28 AM
^ watch it
 
Magisch
Magisch
6:35 AM
morning
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
morning
 
Magisch
Magisch
6:50 AM
→ 6 messages moved to Chimney
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@forest I think opt-out might be better then, or they'd need to make the accessibility button really accessible.
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
 
Magisch
Magisch
meh. don't find it that off topic
it is about SE after all
 
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog -1; that's on-topic
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
@Mithrandir Of the first question, half can only be answered by Google, and the second one is off-topic.
I've had Chrome's design change for many months now because whenever I use Chrome I use the Canary build.
 
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
7:04 AM
Being answerable by Google doesn't make it off-topic.
And I disagree; asking if SE's design changes are part of something larger is on-topic.
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Chrome's changes were first seen in a Canary build before any responsive site rolled out.
 
Magisch
Magisch
Sounds like arguments that could serve as an answer to that question, but not for its off topicness
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
 
forest
forest
@Tinkeringbell It could certainly be made very accessible. Just keep it at the bottom with the other buttons. People who need enhanced accessibility for a site know to look there. A simple button called "accessibility mode" would suffice.
 
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
I don't think that SE wants to maintain two versions of the site like that.
 
forest
forest
7:11 AM
@Mithrandir There's nothing hard to maintain. It's just a few lines in CSS.
I could write it in my spare time. It could be as simple as switching to a more bold stylesheet, increasing the width of borders, and enabling underlining of links. In fact, it would make it even more accessible than it is now, since it would allow for much more "intrusive" (but still trivially implemented) accessibility enhancements.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
7:28 AM
@forest That's assuming there's only one CSS where those changes need to be made?
 
forest
forest
@Tinkeringbell It would be portable across sites.
Especially if it's limited to underlining hyperlinks.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@forest It probably won't be... accessibility is a lot more than just underlining hyperlinks, from what little understanding I have on the subject.
I know one other mod, doppelgreener, does do some research on the topic from time to time. Just look at their MSE questions, there's stuff like using screen readers and buttons not being accessible, or yesterday there was a really extensive one on keyboard navigation
 
forest
forest
@Tinkeringbell The issue with the underlined links is what I was talking about.
More trivial stuff that is not intrusive is fine to enable by default.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@forest Hmmm. But who get's to decide what's 'not intrusive'?
I'd not like my page to start nagivating if I slam my head on my keyboard.
 
forest
forest
Intrusive should be whatever causes distraction to a non-negligible number of people.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
7:36 AM
So far, if I count all SE users, there's been a lot less people that didn't complain about underlined links than that there's been people that did....
 
forest
forest
If you are implying that that means that those people do not care about underlined links, that is a fallacy.
For every person who chooses to comment, there will be a dozen more who think "ugh, this is mighty ugly" and do not bother to make that known.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@forest Well, just pointing out that in this case the people complaining might be a neglibible number of people ;)
@forest I don't know. I can't read minds.
I must admit I'm not too bothered by the underlined links. I didn't come here because the site looked so pretty...
 
forest
forest
@Tinkeringbell It's easy to tell with basic statistics. The fact is that you can compare different types of criticisms with each other. Generally this is because the distribution of vocal minorities will generally be the same regardless of the issue (with the exception of political issues).
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
Well, I'm not to fond of statistics (they can easily be twisted to show whatever you want them to show if not used with extreme prudence) and neither am I fond of vocal minorities... I guess we'll just have to say that some people don't mind underlined links, some people do find them ugly, and some people are really happy right now because it makes the site a little more accessible to them... We can argue underlined links for the next 2 years and not change that ;)
 
forest
forest
What is simpler is to make it possible to toggle. That way people who dislike them do not see them, but people who need to see them (because they didn't put their OS into accessibility mode and prefer to torture themselves, I suppose) can trivially enable them. Even if I believe it should be the browser's place to do this, not the end site's, it can still be made possible for everyone to be happy.
 
Derpy
Derpy
7:43 AM
Quick! someone find a way to forward this question to Oda. This need to happen in One Piece!
21
Q: Anatomically correct sharknado shark

Renan Raining animals is a rare meteorological phenomenon in which flightless animals fall from the sky. Such occurrences have been reported in many countries throughout history. One hypothesis is that tornadic waterspouts sometimes pick up creatures such as fish or frogs, and carry them for up to s...

science-based reality-check biology creature-design
 
forest
forest
In the end, I really do think it's not the place for the site to be doing any of these accessibility changes, when it is possible for them to be done exclusively client-side. For example, a non-trivial number of people are severely photophobic (bright light or rapid changes in brightness is physically painful), and yet this site is using black on bright white. Should this site change to black on dark grey or beige on black text to be painful? Or should they change their brightness settings?
For hyperlinks, it's trivial for a browser to automatically underline them. People who need accessibility already enable such features in their operating systems and browsers. The only thing a site needs to do is to make sure that it is compatible with their accessibility software (e.g. use <a href="/foo"> for links rather than generating them on-the-fly with JavaScript, do not obfuscate CSS, support audio captchas, etc).
s/to be painful/to be less painful/
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
8:28 AM
I'll need to read up on it. I do notice that e.g. the Dutch 'Rijksoverheid' uses underlined links as well, not expecting them to be set up client-side. I'm guessing there's some guideline somewhere that says it's more accesible to do so, now to find out where that guideline is and why it exists :)
 
forest
forest
Well it's also a style thing.
Some sites use underlined links because that's how it was done in the past.
Others use it because it looks better for their layout.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
I'm pretty sure in this case it's an accessibility case, I can remember some news articles from way back saying the sites weren't accessible because of links not being visible enough amongst other thins.
That's why I checked that site now ;)
 
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SmokeDetector
9:04 AM
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SmokeDetector
9:17 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad ns for domain in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer: Earning from a blog that provides cracked softwares for download? by Jimmie on islam.SE
 
Derpy
Derpy
9:32 AM
@forest ...will have to wait till someone famous enough will point that out on a twitter post...
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Derpy Huh?
 
Derpy
Derpy
nothing. It's just that I can't really picture SE working on site accessibility anytime soon. Unless given a good reason for.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Derpy It looks like they did though... there was a feature request for underlined links now marked completed.
I don't know the 'good reason' why SE suddenly worked on accessibility though.
 
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Derpy
Derpy
9:49 AM
@Tinkeringbell well, I'll be honest. Based on this it seems a pretty quick fix whose impact wasn't really very well planned. That said, you are right - I probably have underestimated the fact that accessibility is probably a selling point for Teams.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Derpy I've been sneaking in some googling as to why underlines are so important to accessibility while running tests and being annoyed at the results...
I haven't really found anything yet on why, but the guidelines I found are pretty strong in saying that colour shouldn't be the only way to distinguish links
(Except that colour is inaccessible to black-white colorblind people)
But yeah, I think underlined links are something people could require if they're going to buy a Team
 
forest
forest
@Tinkeringbell True black-and-white colorblind people (cerebral achromatopsia) is one of the most rare disorders in the world. There are only a handful of cases.
There are more people who, and I am not joking here, will mistake their computer for a fish if they look at it from the right side of their eye, but not if they look at it from the left side of their eye (a severe form of agnosia), despite having 20/20 vision.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@Tinkeringbell might not just be teams. Enterprise probably uses the same basic components
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@JourneymanGeek Oh yeah, there's also such a thing as Enterprise :D
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
10:07 AM
@Tinkeringbell that's kind of a big thing, and seems to be the big revenue source at the moment
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
10:38 AM
@JourneymanGeek Heh :P If you don't use it, you don't think about it ;)
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@Tinkeringbell if only that was an option lol
Actually since it is Q&A and stuff probably cross pollinates - it matters. And it does more good for QA in the direct sense than say... careers
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@JourneymanGeek Why not? I've got loads of stuff that I never noticed, simply because I don't use it ;)
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
which was a big focus for quite a while
@Tinkeringbell cause the stuff we don't use helps fund the stuff we use ;)
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@JourneymanGeek Hey, I said I don't think about it, doesn't mean the people making money with it should forget about it XD
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
;)
lol
I actually have some vaguely ranty feelings about the jobs bit of SE but shhhh
its probably useful for some folks, and its still pretty important it seems
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
10:42 AM
vaguely ranty feelings are good ;) At least, I like them. Means there's something wrong and I should think about what :P
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@Tinkeringbell well one simple thing is its a super crowded market - even if SO did something "different", and a lot of decent internet resources kinda made the exact same move... badly
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@JourneymanGeek You know, I'm not using that either :P
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
And there was pretty much an extremely heavy focus until, well...
@Tinkeringbell you're still more of the target market than me ;)
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@JourneymanGeek I hate being on the target market :P
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
I only see me getting a job though SO if they hire me ;)
@Tinkeringbell eh, software development is... the future
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
10:44 AM
@JourneymanGeek Oh sure, but apparently my 'target market' is stuff like 'chicks develop'
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
Or so they say ;)
@Tinkeringbell ehh.
I have mixed feelings on that lol
 
Magisch
Magisch
@Tinkeringbell I knew you was a bird but I thought parrot instead of chicken :p
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
(I'm a big fan of people need to follow their passion.)
@Tinkeringbell well, apparently ya, least for now
don't forget though, early software development was heavily female...
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@JourneymanGeek Well, let me phrase it this way. The reason I'm not on LinkedIn anymore is because people tracked me down online to harrass me about segregating myself into a women-only community
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
so... you're basically walking in the footsteps of giants.
@Tinkeringbell ugh
 
Magisch
Magisch
10:46 AM
thats unfortunate
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
I'm sorry
 
Magisch
Magisch
you seem to be doing just fine without any of that though :p
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
(I was meanting though as opposed to folks who want to do hardware or trying to break into system administration or.. well some other stuff, like me ;) )
I'm apparently a dinosaur or something
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
Not that my current company (or the one they detached me to) do a lot better, those have those nasty groups as well. At least not being on LinkedIn anymore means I don't have to deal with the crap twice a week
 
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
People are jerks.
 
Magisch
Magisch
10:48 AM
@Tinkeringbell I mean it comes from a place of advocacy
People are trying to correct an imbalance that is resistant to being corrected
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Magisch Yeah I know, I just never understood how segregation would help advocacy
 
Magisch
Magisch
@Tinkeringbell Me neither, but I've never been the target audience for one of these workplace groups so I don't qualify to comment
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Magisch If you ask, the group doesn't have an answer either. I put my b*tch hat on one day and asked.
Got a bunch of ... those one-liners that don't mean a thing with copious amounts of buzzwords?
but no explanation ;)
@Mithrandir That's not true for people in general ;) At least not the ones I know. It's the ones I don't that I have to worry about :P
 
Derpy
Derpy
once again
> “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
people are very used to wear masks.
 
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
@Tinkeringbell *some
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
10:57 AM
@Derpy depends on how you define masks... Everything you do shows the world a part of you, and you could say that we all paint our own masks...
Wearing a mask doesn't have to mean you're hiding something ;)
 
Derpy
Derpy
After all, they all fear judgement. And judging others over conformity expectations is an easy way to "remove the mob agro" from yourself onto an unsuspecting tank.
 
Magisch
Magisch
Everyone can act like a jerk from time to time
 
Derpy
Derpy
I know people that hate Kirby and refused to ever try it because the character is pink...
 
Magisch
Magisch
@Derpy It's true. my public persona is almost nothing like the real me. At work anyways
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Derpy Hmmm. I see this more as people tyring to force me to wear their colours on my mask so their colours get more validation, than my mask being a way to conform...
 
Derpy
Derpy
11:00 AM
@Tinkeringbell said a song
 
Magisch
Magisch
@Tinkeringbell I think that's part of it. If you're a successful software engineer, you're an asset to an advocacy group
 
Derpy
Derpy
> "you can't have a nightmare if you don't dream"
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Magisch Hmmm. Will I be, if the goals/ideas of that advocacy group directly counteract what makes a successful software engineer?
 
Magisch
Magisch
@Tinkeringbell Is that?
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Magisch Well, segregating yourself from the majority of your co-workers to commisserate on a self-stigma doesn't really help being successful in the workplace, I can imagine.
 
Magisch
Magisch
11:06 AM
@Tinkeringbell but what "makes you" a successful software engineer is an analytical mind and some specialized knowledge, not your gender :p
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Magisch Yet the advocacy groups are all about gender. They want me, because I'm cis-female.
Not because I'm analytical, because as soon as I do start being analytical (which often results in knocking the wind out of their complaints and reasoning) they are very quick to show that they're not interested in analytical ;)
 
Magisch
Magisch
@Tinkeringbell Thats why you're an asset to them
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Magisch Well, if they want to select on gender, they should get pets, not people ;)
 
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Magisch
Magisch
@Tinkeringbell I think the context is that they advocate for more women in programming (and tech). Thus they like members who already are women in programming. Maybe you could mentor some other women to have better odds at suceeding in the development world? I think that'd be the goal (besides publicity. more successful members = more influence as organization)
mostly guessing here though, as I said I've never been in a target group for one of the organizations
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
11:20 AM
I'm not going to select the people I mentor (if I'm going to ever find the patience to mentor someone) based on gender. I find that quite discriminating.

The group I had the most interaction with is the one from my current company. It advocates bs stuff like 'a better work-life balance *for women*'
As if males wouldn't like to pick up their kids from school and some time to do the laundry
 
Magisch
Magisch
Thats the thing with every advocacy group though is it
They're always advocating for their niche. Can't really fault them for that.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
Why not just have a 'work-life balance advocacy group' then?
I mean, I don't mind that. The thing that stings is the 'for women' part
 
Magisch
Magisch
Because the issue of work life balance is a secondary concern. The mission is to correct the fact that developer jobs have too few women (in their opinion).
 
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Magisch
Magisch
(I think) the idea is by improving conditions for women in the field more will enter the field. This comes from a good place as ideally you'd have a natural selection of good developers vs what it is now (mostly male). Unfortunately few of a certain group being in a field tends to be self reinforcing as clique effects kick in
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
11:23 AM
@Magisch Okay, let me clarify: This group I'm talking about doesn't have an exact mission statement, but I never caught them in the act of advocating more women should have a developers job.
 
Magisch
Magisch
I obviously don't know the exact group at your workplace, and it could just be a clique type organization riding your company's progressive values to get ahead for themselves, but most of those groups I heard about have an end goal of correcting the gender imbalance in the field.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Magisch Okay, then let's work with 'we need to correct a gender imbalance'. Would you really say it needs correcting? Would you start with work life balances or rather with actually trying to see if more girls are interested in e.g. STEM than are doing a STEM related job/study?
There's just so many fallacies with 'this is something that needs to be corrected'
 
Magisch
Magisch
I'm wholly unqualified to answer that question I'm afraid
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Magisch I'm probably not qualified to answer it either. But it is a serious question I ask myself everytime someone brings up something that to them 'needs fixing'...
 
Magisch
Magisch
See it positively, you're in a prime position to take advantage
As a talented woman in software development, the sky's the limit atm
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
11:28 AM
If there's really something different in how women and men are treated, e.g. newborn leave, I'm willing to step up and say 'maybe we should treat everyone equally'
but you shouldn't force people to 'do STEM' because 'STEM needs females more than males'
that's just plain wrong, as far as I can see and reason
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@Tinkeringbell that's a really important point
 
Magisch
Magisch
I don't disagree, but my opinion seems to be on the decidedly losing side of history
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Magisch I'd like to not do that... that's another pet peeve, people using their gender or whatever trait actively, and only, to get an advantage over others...
On that side, maybe we should park this while I get some coffee and make sure I don't start being too ranty ;)
 
Magisch
Magisch
People who have researched this far more thoroughly then I have (actual academics) seem to be of the opinion that gender roles aren't innate but mostly learned, so they think that with enough effort they can alter them indefinitely. So maybe. I don't know. Every time I talk to one of the proponents about it I get told that my opinion is secondary anyways because I stand to benefit from the status quo.
@Tinkeringbell caffeine is important :p
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Magisch NEVER, EVER let people tell you 'you don't matter here'. If you've done your research, you're allowed to have an opinion. I'd rather see an outside perspective based on research than an inside one that inherently biased ;)
 
Magisch
Magisch
11:32 AM
I prefer to depart discussions where my input is unwanted
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
I think it was a Dutch documentary about minds, that gave males/females different tasks. There's definitely different brains, and they're good at different things. You could categorize them on a scale of 'more male stereotypical, more female stereotypical'.
The male teacher in that docu scored definitely better towards the 'female stereotypical' tasks.
While the female mechanic, you'd guess... scored better towards male stereotypical tasks.
I think everyone should pick a job their brain can handle ;)
@Magisch It is here ;) so 'I'm not qualified to answer that' isn't going to work with me :P I want to know your thoughts, even if they're not answers :D
 
Magisch
Magisch
I found that in these circles people always question my motives or assume unkind motivations when I talk about it. In the intersectional analysis of privilege I'm pretty far up the tree so naturally people advocating on that frame of mind can't see me for anything other then a unduely privileged person defending their position of privilege.
Based on that I've largely given up on arguing or thinking too much about these things and I'm content to just let history run its course.
 
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
So, in a way, your privilege becomes your downfall.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Magisch Okay, yeah, those kinds of people aren't trying to understand, just defend ;) That's not a discussion, that's a war ;)
 
Magisch
Magisch
My gut feeling says that women and men on average have innate natural preferences in what they're good at that don't line up to a fixed 50%/50% average in any job
which is again colored by my perspective here. I'd completly and utterly suck as a child care worker. No amount of advocacy could ever make me into a passable one.
Ideally we'd find some relatively reliable way to funnel people towards what they're good at
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
11:38 AM
@Magisch Well, if it is a colored perspective, I do share it ;) So maybe it's not as colored as you think. It lines up very well with that brain thing I explained just now
 
Magisch
Magisch
I think the controversy is if that's learned behavior / societal conditioning vs innate preferences
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Magisch The brain thing looked science-y enough to show that there's at least a good thing to say for something innate. But maybe if it's never stimulated, it won't develop as much... That's hard to say from that experiment
I can only draw on my own life here, and say that I don't think there's much learned behavior or societal conditioning going towards being a good programmer.
My parents certainly never raised me as one ;)
 
Magisch
Magisch
This is a discussion between two people who agree on almost every point
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
There's this joke about a mom being asked how old her kids are, and who replies 'The lawyer is 5 and the doctor 8'. :P
I need to look that one up, it's in one of my philosophy books
@Magisch Heh :P We need a devils advocate in here ;)
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
!!/coffee Taverners
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
11:49 AM
@Somewhat brews a cup of Latte for @Taverners
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Fun fact: as a male I've mentored at all-girls schools to teach programming.
@Tinkeringbell In all but one of the fun "what gender are you" quizzes I've taken online, I've gotten a result of "female".
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
This is going into "gender vs sex" rabbit hole...
 
user194636
the earlier discussion seemed more of the "equality of opportunity" vs. "equality of outcome" variety
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@PaulWhite ? As in, we were talking more about equal opportunities not necessarily meaning the outcome is equal too?
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
There's... The Workplace for that...
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
11:56 AM
@Somewhat You wanna talk about something else? :)
 
user194636
@Tinkeringbell The question being whether a particular field or area (e.g. STEM) should provide equal opportunities for all, or if there should be equality of outcome i.e. a roughly 50/50 split.
 
Magisch
Magisch
As long as the discussion stays respectful and doesn't stray into insults or hurt feelings, where's the harm?
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@PaulWhite Yep. I guess that boils it down quite nicely ;)
 
Derpy
Derpy
In the meantime, somewhere else ... I'm starting to think this "Android Emulator can run using hyper-v acceleration inside an azure VM" thing is just a lie M$ made up for advertising purpose.
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
Nah... I'm okay with it... I'm just referring that there are many questions about this on Workplace.SE
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
11:57 AM
@Derpy You still didn't manage to get it to work? :(
@Somewhat Oh, there probably are ;) I think I even saw one on .. was it writing? .. once, about how to profit from being female.
Nah, can't have been writing. Maybe that was workplace too, although I seem to remember a 'blue' site ;)
 
user194636
@Tinkeringbell There are, it seems to me, quite logical arguments on both sides of the broader point. Unfortunately discussion in this area rarely stays completely productive for long. It's kinda sad, because the underlying issues are quite interesting and nuanced.
 
Derpy
Derpy
look. If you run the emulator without having enabled the "Windows virtualization platform" windows feature you get a prompt that says "Windows Hypervisor Platform (WHPX)" is not installed and you are given the ability to run the emulator without acceleration.
If you enable it, you get an error stating WHPX is not installed and no propt to use the emu.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@Tinkeringbell heh. I have a long rant about people going into careers for the wrong reasons for later. Can't really do it on a phone and I'm stuck in traffic
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@JourneymanGeek Hahaha. keep your eyes on the road!
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
Passenger :)
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
12:02 PM
ah, okay :)
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
An interesting 1959 film on women in the workplace. A manager is complaining about a woman being recruited for a job, while his director attempts to quell his fears and explain how she's qualified as well:
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Derpy That sounds like a nice design flaw. Is there a way to 'manually' install WHPX?
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
(The title doesn't accurately represent the film's content)
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
Well in India there was traditionally certain more respected professions
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
12:03 PM
> Please note: More recent versions of the emulator (27.2.8, 27.3.0, or later), require an emulator flag while the feature is in the preview. To do this, create or edit the file C:\Users\<your-username>\.android\advancedFeatures.ini and add the line “WindowsHypervisorPlatform = on”, or start the emulator from the command line with “-feature WindowsHypervisorPlatform”.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@PaulWhite I know. I guess what prompted the rant above was how unproductive the discussion is being made by most organisations I have experience with ;)
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
Doctors, lawyers and engineers
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
though I believe you have read all of this...
 
user194636
@Tinkeringbell It really is a shame. Oh well.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
If someone knows a really, really good one, I am willing to research and analyze it myself ;)
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
12:04 PM
IT kinda ended up as a second tier
I don't like the idea of people going into a profession cause of advocacy or obligation
 
Derpy
Derpy
@Somewhat another lie. When the device manager is started it detects that WHPX is active (after all, I can start a Linux VM inside Hyper-V...) and creates that very file automatically with the required setting.
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
@JourneymanGeek Out of curiosity, have you watched the film 3 Idiots?
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
I have. Good film.
 
Derpy
Derpy
what I think happens is that due to a regression in the emulator, the emulator code detects that WHPX is active but then fails because it detects that the os is running inside a VM. Which is basically the whole thing the april 2018 update was supposed to add....
> emulator: Checking whether Windows Hypervisor Platform (WHPX) is available.
emulator: WinHvPlatform.dll found. Looking for WHvGetCapability...
emulator: WHvGetCapability found. Querying WHPX capabilities...
emulator: WHvGetCapability failed. hr=0x00000000 whpx_cap.HypervisorPresent? 0

emulator: WHPX is either not available or not installed.
^ this is the log
basically, it seems to indicate that it assume that WHPX is not available because it detect the OS is running in an hypervisor.
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
> Thank you for your feedback! We appreciate you for letting us know about the problem you encountered. The Windows Hypervisor Platform, which is what powers acceleration for the new Hyper-V based Android emulator, does not work correctly in Azure VMs. -- July 12
 
Derpy
Derpy
12:12 PM
@Somewhat I saw that. Problem: other pages say the exact opposite.
 
user194636
Oh. A software developer.
 
Derpy
Derpy
and Hyper-V is fully able to operate inside an Azure VM
So, I can enable Hyper-V anc create an ubuntu VM inside the Azure VM - which proof that nested virtualization is working
but I can't get the Android emu to work, something that based on their claims should be possible too
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@JourneymanGeek You're not the only one. ;)
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
and not only profession, but also education...
 
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
@Derpy Why... why do you have a giant, robotic, flightless, bird in the first place?
 
Derpy
Derpy
12:16 PM
@Mithrandir you mean the emu?
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
Android. Emu. Hah!
 
user194636
> but I can't get the Android emu to work
 
user194636
have you tried turning it off and on again
 
Derpy
Derpy
ok.... thanks ..... now I get the joke......
Maybe I should try an Android dodo.
 
user194636
I hear the iOS dodo is more intuitive, but I think it has been discontinued as well.
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
12:20 PM
Android 8.0 Ostrich
 
Derpy
Derpy
you say dodo, Taryn appears?
Wasn't it a penguin prinny?
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
Blue Dodo?
 
Magisch
Magisch
Hey Taryn
 
user194636
booby
 
user194636
Blue-footed booby
The blue-footed booby (Sula nebouxii) is a marine bird native to subtropical and tropical regions of the eastern Pacific Ocean. It is one of six species of the genus Sula – known as boobies. It is easily recognizable by its distinctive bright blue feet, which is a sexually selected trait. Males display their feet in an elaborate mating ritual by lifting them up and down while strutting before the female. The female is slightly larger than the male and can measure up to 90 cm (35 in) long with a wingspan of up to 1.5 m (5 ft).The natural breeding habitats of the blue-footed booby are the tropical...
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
12:25 PM
why is there a trap for that bird?
 
user194636
a trap?
 
Derpy
Derpy
Still standing that Taryn username should be changed to "Fuka (Kazamatsuri)"
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@PaulWhite boobytrap
 
user194636
d'oh
 
Magisch
Magisch
Somewhat memorable wordplay
 
user194636
12:45 PM
 
user194636
I always wondered about that
 
Magisch
Magisch
yes that is where I got the avatar from
 
user194636
> Happy spines will help fluffing as it dries
 
user194636
A beautiful turn of phrase
 
Magisch
Magisch
:p
 
Magisch
Magisch
1:44 PM
@PaulWhite I wanted a cactus avatar so I googled anthropomorphic cactus and this was the one I liked best
 
Anne Daunted
Anne Daunted
2:04 PM
Quite a step - from a friendly smiley to a spiny plant
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
a friendly cactus!
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
And thorny
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
irritating? :P
 
Anne Daunted
Anne Daunted
inhuman
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
not very cuddly without PPE ;)
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
2:12 PM
polypropylethene?
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
personal protective equipment
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
ah
like a not-flamethrower?
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
well, padded body armour I assume
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
oven mittens ;)
 
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
@JourneymanGeek Then again, Magisch doesn't exactly like cuddling, so that's a bonus ;)
The only avatar here I'd call "cuddly" is yours :P
Oh, and of course Catija's ;P
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
2:17 PM
woof ^^
 
Feeds
Feeds
2:54 PM
 
b_jonas
b_jonas
This is strange. I'm trying to share a user style for an SE website with other users. But I ran into a problem.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
@Feeds 0_0
 
b_jonas
b_jonas
The Firefox Stylish extension can apply the style on my side, and can export it, but it refuses to import it, in the sense that it doesn't recognize the @-moz-document domain("scifi.stackexchange.com") { ... } declaration that it wrote itself.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
(also, its a pity the supersoaker is no longer a thing. I mean. Water gun designed by a real rocket scientist!)
errrrr....
 
b_jonas
b_jonas
Let me check MDN if that's the right syntax for that directive: if it's not then it's the export that's wrong.
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
2:59 PM
@b_jonas almost tempted to point you at the sites, but I really donno which one
 
John Dvorak
John Dvorak
I suspect computers hate supersoakers
 
b_jonas
b_jonas
I do know which sites. I'm just chatting randomly. I'm not stuck yet.
 
Derpy
Derpy
oh, interesting. Just by chance noticed that the amino app site now does some request against a "byteoversea dot com" domain. I noticed because amino was mentioned in a discussion as a sample of a site that is mostly self contained.... but it seems it is not the case anymore
also, the domains looks weird.
 
b_jonas
b_jonas
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
ahh rubber ducking? ;)
 
b_jonas
b_jonas
3:04 PM
3
Q: Unknown @ rule: @-moz-document for Stylish in Firefox 61

user1717828I upgraded to Firefox 61 last night and my custom Stylish theme isn't being applied. Looking in Stylish I see the code section has the flags Unknown @ rule: @-moz-document The code is: @namespace url(http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml); @-moz-document domain("outlook.office.com") { .ms-border-...

css firefox stylish
^ Interesting. Recommends a different browser extension as a workaround. I'll try that.
Stylus (the other browser extension) helped. Great!
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
isnt that extension invasive or something now
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
3:43 PM
AFAIK, yeah, Stylish is the one that invasive
 
Kevin B
Kevin B
3:57 PM
i just use robogist
 
Somewhat
Somewhat
4:10 PM
that false-positive question on jaSO... I appreciate the effort from the first time user using SO: clear problem statement, error message and source code provided, what I have done, additional info that might matter...
 
 
6 hours later…
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
10:34 PM
 
b_jonas
b_jonas
10:59 PM
I have a question to diamond admins (on any site). I posted a custom user-style for Sci Fi SE that is heavily derived from existing site design on that site scifi.meta.stackexchange.com/a/12101/4918 . Can you give me a good prediction (even if it's not a binding promise) on whether it's allowed to post that style there? See especially the note in the answer about legal stuff (first two bullet points under "Important warnings").
@TimPost @JNat SE policy question related to legal stuff ^
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
11:23 PM
@b_jonas probably worth asking on meta
there's gonna be a fair number of that sorta userscripts I suspect
so it might benefit lotsa people
 
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
 
Journeyman Geek
Journeyman Geek
11:38 PM
yawns
10 min + whatever time my co worker takes to get here to go
 

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