Tavern on the Meta

4:03 PM

@YvetteColomb You mean, you wonder if the staff want to keep the low-quality users because they need them for revenue? I don't know, but I'm skeptical. The site can monetize a bad user just as well - maybe better! - if they remain a passive reader who maybe clicks on ads as they can if that user signs up, posts some crap questions, and gets them closed.

Somewhat Memorable Name

I think the site monetizes from those passer-by who come from search engine without asking a question...

Mark Amery

Yep, @SomewhatMemorableName, that's exactly my point

If one of those users signs up and then does nothing useful, that's not the addition of an extra revenue source - that's the addition of harm to the site from someone who would've otherwise been a quiet revenue source.

There's no clear reason for the site to want greater engagement from users who can't create good content

Somewhat Memorable Name

Alternatively, allow "internal" rep to go below 1 (still can ask question) and add "SHOW MORE ADS" privilege that can't be turned off on 0 rep.

Mark Amery

@SomewhatMemorableName hahahaha I think a lot of the Meta crowd would approve of that :P

user310756

@MarkAmery gulp well if I made that accusation, it wouldn't be in public

Martin James

4:10 PM

lol, I like it. No question ban, but you have to read 100 ads per question, plus 100 for every extra bad question that gets closed.

Mark Amery

@YvetteColomb I've seen plenty of Meta users publicly asserting similar :P

user310756

@MarkAmery same, but wearing two mod hats and being a "controversial" figure .. I'm trying to become erm.. somethin somethin

Mark Amery

4:21 PM

@YvetteColomb I think there's a tiny bit of truth to the "established users use gratuitously mean words when talking to newbies" narrative, and significantly more truth to the "rarrr, the real problem is all the bad content produced by those feckless newbies and they should get off our lawn" narrative. But I think it's a pity that the whole "welcoming" conversation has contained almost no analysis of the choices we make with our moderation/curation powers - what we close, what we downvote, and why.

Because the discourse I tend to see about us elsewhere on the internet is not "Grrr, those Nazis over at Stack Overflow used a slightly harsher tone than was required when delivering their otherwise perfectly legitimate criticism."

It's more stuff like these comments from news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17532682...

> What I see on SO is a lot of really annoying people refusing to answer simple questions because they believe, based on nothing, they know more about the question than the person who asked it.

> Never ask them anything about Linux networking. They get so excited to gatekeep the information and tell you that you don't know enough to be safe doing whatever you're doing.

> what I see on SO a lot is people assuming your question is an instance of the "XY problem" when it's not.

> Also the case where for the original asker it really was was an XY instance, but now the top google result for "how do I fill a bathtub using a hosepipe?" goes to a Stack Overflow page full of people refusing to answer the question.

> ...which was then closed for being a duplicate of another question, even though they are different questions that superficially look similar

> I see mostly lively threads that are closed by moderators as 'offtopic'.

Somehow we've had a 1.5-month-long conversation about the way that established users with powers of censorship treat the new users over whom they have power that has not at any point primarily revolved around the actual censorship decisions being made, but rather about the bedside manner that gets employed when making them

user310756

@MarkAmery agree, we needed to lift our game, but I've noticed changes in some of our most recalcitrant users

user310756

@MarkAmery agree

user310756

I think it's time to address underlying causes

user310756

we've addressed the fact that some people are just rude

user310756

and if they want to stay on the site, they need to change how they talk

user310756

4:27 PM

that's been covered

user310756

but in all of this, it has become a focus on who doesn't use the site - possible new comers, people who have left, future users and people too afraid to post, rather than our established user base

user310756

without those experts the site will collapse

user310756

there will be no revenue

user310756

the writing on the wall is as clear as a billboard

user310756

If i was making a proposal to a board of directors, I'd suggest taking short term losses for longevity and ultimately continued gain over the longer term

Mark Amery

4:29 PM

Well, yeah, there is certainly some scope for total disaster if they push the tone-policing too hard

user310756

the site is in crisis and it really will dissolve. If something is not done I give it 12 months and the site will be full of rotten holes with a lack of experts

Mark Amery

I still don't know for sure whether I'm going to have to worry about a suspension coming my way in the post-new-CoC world :P

user310756

@MarkAmery I deleted my auto comments and created a new repo. as the other ones would be attracting flags by now and they weren't intended to be abrupt

Mark Amery

Ha

user310756

people need to cope with feedback and the site has actively discouraged the "niceties" of please and thank you etc

user310756

4:32 PM

so people need to accept factual feedback

user310756

we don't need to be asshats

user310756

we all know when someone is kicking butt

user310756

but it's ok to state "this code doesn't compile" End

user310756

it's a fact, it's not mean

user310756

and people still blow now and then. there's one high rep user who has made enormous changes and I don't want to lose them

Mark Amery

4:33 PM

@YvetteColomb On that I certainly agree

user310756

but they still get frustrated from time to time - but that's because the site is a catch all for all programmers. We need to farm off the beginners.. but then we divide the flagship

user310756

there's plenty of enthusiast teenagers learning programming who'd be happy to answer questions on a newbies programming site

Mark Amery

Eh... I've asked at least a couple of decidedly beginner-level questions here that I maintain are useful additions to our library of knowledge - and which we overall well-received

user310756

we could have a workflow so the questions are migrated and allow people to chew the fat on there in a way that is not well tolerate on SO, as there's an expectation that people understand the basics

Tinkeringbell

@YvetteColomb How many of those questions would already have an answer on SO? ;)

user310756

4:36 PM

@MarkAmery I'm referring to the people who clearly do not understand the answers ;)

user310756

@Tinkeringbell these people do not understand how to apply the answers to their scenarios

Mark Amery

Somebody who has already worked in a non-programming technical job and learned good technical communication skills could, I'd imagine, ask worthwhile questions here in week 2 or so of their programming career

user310756

for example, not understanding what a parameter is, or a modifier

πάντα ῥεῖ

correct terminology is an important thing tho

user310756

@MarkAmery there's no hard and fast rules on who goes where :) it means there could be a place we farm off people who really cannot keep up

Tinkeringbell

4:38 PM

@YvetteColomb Are there questions explaining what a parameter or modifier is? :) (Just trying to get an idea of 'how low you can go on SO' :P)

user310756

and we find a group of willing people who are happy to spend time there.

Magisch

Would that scale?

user310756

@Tinkeringbell so low, you could not imagine

Magisch

How many experts are really willing to spend most of their day answering absolute tosh?

user310756

@Magisch in what way?

Mark Amery

4:39 PM

I think the distinction is more "Is this person asking a complete, answerable question where the final Q&A will be of value to future readers, or does this person actually need a back-and-forth conversation to guide them to understanding?"

Tinkeringbell

@YvetteColomb Lemme rephrase that. Are there currently any good, open questions on SO (maybe canonical ones?) that explain such basic stuff as parameters?

Mark Amery

the former is generally fine here regardless of skill level

user310756

@Magisch you don't need experts, you need learners who are ahead of the newcomers - often they understand the newbie more easily

Mark Amery

the latter is what needs another home

user310756

@Tinkeringbell yes and these people I'm referring to do not understand how to use them

user310756

4:39 PM

e.g. not knowing what debuggin is

user310756

@MarkAmery latter?

Tinkeringbell

@YvetteColomb That's no fun :(

Mark Amery

@YvetteColomb latter of the two kinds of question I described in chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/7103691#7103691

(sorry, that became unclear when interleaved with other messages!)

user310756

@Tinkeringbell it happens a lot

user310756

@MarkAmery yes exactly, if the network provides a site for these people it will only help

Tinkeringbell

4:41 PM

@Yvette are you sure these people have actually found those questions, and are misunderstanding them? Or are they just asking because well, if you google 'what is SO' there's not a single hint you can use it to find answers other than by asking your own question?

user310756

with an ease to migrate posts there

user310756

@Tinkeringbell promise, I'm sure :)

user310756

I'll have to find you an example.... they're usually (hopefully) deleted

Tinkeringbell

@YvetteColomb If you could, that would be nice. I don't have the rep to see deleted stuff on SO (I've only used SO to find answers ;) )

user310756

I find them by tracking rude and abusive flags..

Tinkeringbell

4:43 PM

Oi. That does sound like a little problem.

user310756

@Tinkeringbell this is a typical question (no comments yet) stackoverflow.com/questions/51346208/…

user310756

and stackoverflow.com/questions/51329140/…

Tinkeringbell

@YvetteColomb It now has a comment... A very Dutch one :P

user310756

@Tinkeringbell hehe I noticed what you did there :D

Tinkeringbell

@YvetteColomb See, but that one is closed with a reference to 'what is a nullpointerexception' and that then references 'how do I debug a stacktrace'

So that one seems more like it was asked by someone who didn't know how to google the error message, or use SO..

@YvetteColomb Wasn't me by the way ;) I just noticed the comment

user310756

4:49 PM

I need to find some examples

user310756

I'm getting closer. But they're deleted.

user310756

Maybe TL?

Tinkeringbell

I guess it's hard to see if you're coming at this from the outside...

@YvetteColomb Sure :)

Tinkeringbell

5:34 PM

(So, who feels left out now? Sorry!)

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