Tavern on the Meta

Journeyman Geek

12:15 AM

@bwDraco just to say, it we think it's serious, we would grab a cm posthaste

We have ways

Catija

@ShadowWizard Nah, they have a way to indicate staff that would keep mods out of certain chat rooms.

If you think about it, it makes sense... not all staff have diamonds.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

12:40 AM

@Catija So you mean, there's a "super-private" privacy option for chat rooms that only allows users with the staff bit to access, that can only be set by staff?

Catija

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog :shrug: I don't know any specifics... but I know that there's something there that would prevent "mods" here from accessing the staff rooms... I'm pretty sure that we've talked about it before...

hey

4:14 AM

Still confuse about tipping culture... I'd voluntarily tip if I think the service is well done, but for restaurants (moreover, US, according to HNQ) to force tipping...?

hey

4:48 AM

Hmm, I guess it's because I usually go to the cashier to pay with cash, instead of asking for the bill...

Shog9

5:02 AM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog you have a nasty habit of flagging the same posts repeatedly for the same reason. I've warned you about this multiple times. Now I just don't pay attention.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

5:37 AM

@Shog9 So if I really think something's not an answer and I disagree with the moderator declining the flag, what am I supposed to do? I think those are clear-cut cases of blatant non-answers.

There's really nothing much to say besides, it's not an answer.

hey

Did you flag it as NAA? Did the reviewers agree with you?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

6:22 AM

@hey The flags were marked declined, so they must have been dismissed by a moderator. Also, answers can only be reviewed once - subsequent flags go straight to moderators.

rene

6:41 AM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog What am I supposed to do? How about move on?

user310756

6:57 AM

wow, just wow. How can such ignorance, and lack of insight and empathy be challenged?

user310756

@rene I forgot what the dickens I wanted to talk to you about - it was something semi gossipy :D Later 'gator. I'm leaving this room post haste, before the controversy breaks out.

πάντα ῥεῖ

I am awaiting the empathy SWAT :3

Also one should get the full context:

@gregcons @aprilwensel I've seen people complaining about compiler error messages, and "why these were so mean to me?" instead of just fixing the obvious things using the hints. That's not what I'd call productive.

Tweeted by GntherMakulik on May 19, 2018 at 2:23 PM in reply to gregcons

hey

Next project, Google Assistant will make compiler error messages more emphatical with ~~Duplex~~ (nah, cannot be same name... how about *Pathy...)

πάντα ῥεῖ

They can go being evil now.

Shadow Wizard

7:38 AM

@rene he can't do that, that's the problem.

Martin James

@hey More emphatic? Like: 'E1047: bad syntax in line 247. Look, that's the third time I've failed that line. Why can't you just stop wasting my cycles and FIX THE DAMN SYNTAX!'

hey

should be more apathy...

'E1047: bad syntax in line 247. I have tried my best trying to compile the code, but I gave up. Please, don't do this to me.'

or

'I'm tired trying to compile this non-working code. It wasted my 143 stamina, and it's not enough to compile the next code. Would you like to buy the super value "10000 stamina" pack from our online store? Otherwise, I need to wait 23 minutes to compile it.'

(need to take a nap now... afk)

SmokeDetector

8:16 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Windows account ending with $ by Manab roy on superuser.com

user310756

9:24 AM

ahorn

How do I find out (on a particular SE site) how much rep a person needs in order to see who voted?

Mithrandir24601

@ahorn You can never see who voted for what - you can see how many times some user has voted in total and after a certain amount of rep, you can see the number of up and down votes on each post, but that's it

ahorn

@Mithrandir24601 so even a user with 500k rep can't see who voted? What about mods?

Mithrandir24601

@ahorn Not even mods

ahorn

Interesting.

I think people sometimes try to guess

Mithrandir24601

9:38 AM

For a little bit more detail, see this question. I'm sure people try to guess all the time :P

Mark Amery

10:07 AM

*"So if I really think something's not an answer and I disagree with the moderator declining the flag, what am I supposed to do? I think those are clear-cut cases of blatant non-answers. "*

I can think of several possible responses to this:
1. Check you're familiar with the (extremely narrow - perversely so in my opinion) definition of NAA that mods use. https://meta.stackoverflow.com/q/341596/1709587 is provides a great example of just how narrow that definition is; a random dump of irrelevant broken HTML gets given as an "answer" to a C++ question, and the NAA flag on it was (correctly) …

Chat markdown still hates my guts. No idea why my italics don't work.

John Dvorak

Multiline messages ignore formatting

Mark Amery

test

_test_
_test_

So they do.

rene

10:49 AM

@ShadowWizard Let's move on ...

SmokeDetector

11:23 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected, toxic answer detected: What is an airdrop attack? by TyTower on monero.SE

rene

11:59 AM

I tried a welcoming comment This question is posted on the site where we discuss policies about the SE network. Therefor this question is unlikely to get an answer here. In the site list the topics per site are mentioned. The question can find a home there if they have a match with what is on-topic as mentioned in their Help Center. ...

... a bit disappointed by the result: U mean that i cant get answer in entire stack exchange website if so do u know where is best to give a try in other websites'

Shadow Wizard

12:26 PM

@rene I moved on long ago.. :)

rene

:D

hey

I just moved on and beyond...

Journeyman Geek

@rene this is why you also close and delete there asap?

Shadow Wizard

12:55 PM

@hey and reached a parallel universe?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@rene You could try using my canned comment: "Welcome to Meta Stack Exchange! This site is for questions about the Stack Exchange network of Q&A sites; unfortunately, we have to mark this question as "off-topic" for this site. Please post your question on the correct site, and check to make sure your question is on-topic for the site you've chosen."

hey

I bet they give up before browsing 172 sites...

Shadow Wizard

I bet 99% of them don't even read comments.

So I believe that 1% who do read, have better chance to actually bother and look for proper site. :)

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

I had a decent response rate to my survey back when I had that open and linked it, and even after that, some people responded to my comment, or voluntarily deleted their post

hey

Did they post it on the correct site in the end?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

1:02 PM

Didn't check

You lose the privilege to see questions and links to author profiles of deleted questions you've nominated for closure once you earn 3k

hey

You get it back once you earn 10k ;p

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Why leave users between 3k and 10k in the middle?

Mgetz

@ShadowWizard then they go to reddit and complain we're not welcoming

Journeyman Geek

1:19 PM

No no. Twitter.....

John Dvorak

in before it spreads to imgur

Mgetz

@JohnDvorak what is this cancer, does it metastasize to quora?

hey

We'll have a bulletin-size billboard saying "Stack Exchange is not welcoming." instead.

Journeyman Geek

More seriously though

there's always going to be people who complain

Some of those complaints can be valid

At the end of the day though, if we're constantly hating and snarking at folks who hate and snark at us, aren't we just as bad?

Mgetz

@JourneymanGeek Funny that... the one person that didn't redirect complaints has left the building

Journeyman Geek

1:33 PM

@Mgetz ehh. tbh, I kinda think, entirely talking out of my ass, that he left for the same reason that QA hadn't had attention for ages.

From a development point of view? Its boring.

Most of the core features are set in stone.

Its got an excellent amount of cultural and market share

Also, Atwood's SE was a lot smaller, and well... he more or less had the power to make decision by fiat sometimes

Small features happened super fast

I'm as much of a fan of the Atwood as the next guy but I think he might end up having many of the same problems with a different kind of drama with his reactions.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek He was quoted as doing the work of three people, as after he left, they had to hire three people to fill in his role

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog and these days? There's even more people covering that?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek Based on his old meta posts, he sometimes made decisions on feature requests without thinking. Many of these decisions (e.g. not disclosing rate limits) were later overturned.

Mgetz

@JourneymanGeek Nostaliga is a powerful thing, but honestly the Stackexchange bush is getting to the point it might need pruning

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog which led to very fast development

@Mgetz in terms of?

Mgetz

1:38 PM

@JourneymanGeek when a company gets big enough it loses core focus and the ability to respond in an agile fashion to its customers

Journeyman Geek

@Mgetz eh, I think SO corp realises its a problem now.

Took a lot of pain though

@Mgetz but what would pruning mean?

So, SE basically has.. 3? products at the moment

Ads,Careers and Q&A.

Mgetz

@JourneymanGeek Probably a complete reexamine of the interaction between users and the site tested on a beta site. A switch to a multiparadigm system based on what the intent of the site is

Journeyman Geek

@Mgetz " switch to a multiparadigm system based on what the intent of the site is" errr whut?

Mgetz

e.g. meta sites wouldn't have the same sort of votes as SE or SO main sites but rather might have "I support" or "I dislike" buttons

Journeyman Geek

@Mgetz on technically, most meta sites have no concequence votes already

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

1:42 PM

Voting behavior on meta and inclusivity

Jan 18 at 23:44, 56 minutes total – 105 messages, 3 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked Jan 19 at 0:41 by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek All except MSE

Journeyman Geek

Actually the problem with main meta is people treat votes like that with MSE's concequences

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

If I disagree with an MSE request, I always consider if it's really worth making the author lose 2 rep over it

Journeyman Geek

I have a slightly different idea of what's wrong - that Q&A and the smaller sites have kind of a culture of benign neglect

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek True

Journeyman Geek

So, a little nostalgia? We used to have folks like Atwood or Aarthi drop over. It dosen't scale well - but we essentially interacted with CMs almost as a helpdesk, rather than as personally as we used to.

There's a few good reasons for it

Mgetz

1:45 PM

@JourneymanGeek I guess my point is it's time to break the system to change behavior

Journeyman Geek

On more mature sites the mod teams are typically well rounded enough to deal with

TylerH

@TimPost Should the privacy policy be updated regarding this? Or is the company actually truly still legally named Stack Exchange, Inc. and only refers to themselves as Stack Overflow again informally?

Journeyman Geek

@TylerH the company is still called Stack Exchange Inc

The SO naming is for business purposes.

Mgetz

Normally I would have advocated gradual evolution, but I think it might be time to test some radical changes (albeit on test sites that nobody knows are affiliated with SE)

Journeyman Geek

cough I'm not a fan, but I'm from out in the sticks, not the shining city on the hill ;)

@Mgetz ooh

hey

1:46 PM

radical change: disable downvote :)

Journeyman Geek

@hey ugh.

That feels like pandering

Unless we replace them with close and deletions only (. _.)

Mgetz

@hey what if we get rid of voting all together, or don't show votes, or go with "This is relevant to me" buttons

the only way to find out is to test

Journeyman Geek

@Mgetz isn't that vaguely how MS answers works?

hey

and we always need more GitHub's Reactions to prevent comment clutters

Journeyman Geek

@hey ugh. comments

We've all been doing it wrong for years but its so damned hard to change

Mgetz

1:50 PM

@JourneymanGeek no, I'm suggesting doing something completely radical to the point that SE doesn't even put the SE name on it but runs it as a skunkworks project

Journeyman Geek

ah

Mgetz

If they have to.. they can try to bring back Jeff to be their Hannibal (A-Team reference)

Journeyman Geek

@Mgetz which kinda pushes resources towards a non core project - even ig its a OSQA form

@Mgetz ehh. If things get really bad, maybe.

hey

where's that Google Labs...

Mgetz

@JourneymanGeek nope tiny team, no more than 5 people

Journeyman Geek

1:52 PM

Its funny though - I consider most of SE's problems to be cultural, not technical

@Mgetz SE is actually pretty small

maybe a dozen or so QA and as many SREs?

I can't really tell, they took out the people page

not more than about 200 or so people total?

Mgetz

@JourneymanGeek That's larger than I assumed they were, I thought they were in the 50-100 range

Journeyman Geek

@Mgetz well, 3 offices

and at one point a ton of folks in sales

hey

and remotes

@JourneymanGeek my interpretation of the welcoming blog post is that the technical problems also prevent improvements to the cultural problem, though...

Journeyman Geek

I kinda think they need to work out the cultural thing first

SE's developer first in many ways.

They'll actually have an easier time with technical changes than getting folk on board with stuff they can't eek in place

Shadow Wizard

@Mgetz exactly!

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog what middle?

Journeyman Geek

2:02 PM

@ShadowWizard we cannot win every fight. We can't be everywhere talking to everyone.

We can sort things out here as best as we can

Shadow Wizard

@Mgetz and who is Mr. T?

Mgetz

@ShadowWizard Shog?

Shadow Wizard

@Mgetz huh. Fits pretty well. :D

Mgetz

Better question is who is the Murdock?

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek if only people would understand it, we would all be much happier.

(I mean people outside SE or new to SE)

Journeyman Geek

2:06 PM

@Mgetz probably Shog9

Maybe they need a Face

hey

1-man team: Shog1-9

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek Shog has good face

Nazgûl

The Nazgûl (from Black Speech nazg, "ring", and gûl, "wraith, spirit", possibly related to gul, "sorcery" or a wordplay on "ghoul" ), also called Ringwraiths, Ring-wraiths, Black Riders, Dark Riders, the Nine Riders, or simply the Nine, are fictional characters in J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium. They were nine men who succumbed to Sauron's power and attained near-immortality as wraiths, servants bound to the power of the One Ring and completely under the dominion of Sauron. They are first mentioned in The Lord of the Rings, originally published in 1954–1955. The book calls the Nazgûl...

If Shog will ever turn to the Dark Side ^

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard but here's the thing. all of us were new once.

Granted so was SE.

Some people thrive in these environments. Some need a little pushing...

some would rather curse the dark

We can help the first two.

SmokeDetector

2:57 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer: How can I turn home gas (LPG) from liquid to gas? by NefteGaz Energy Consultant on engineering.SE

SmokeDetector

3:38 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Mostly dots in title: How to ........................................? by Maria on chemistry.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching email in answer, blacklisted user: What does “m/f” or “m/w” mean in German job postings? by gonzale enersto on german.SE

user5389107

4:07 PM

When I was new to SE at first it was intimidating as hell

Pretty sure I spent a month or so before making an account and then some more time before my first post

hey

I think I knew SO through Google when I was a freshman (2008). Back then I was just another regular user who only searched Q and read A.... until 5 years later when I decided to create an account (in the middle of office hour) and start answering Android questions based from current knowledge...

πάντα ῥεῖ

4:56 PM

Seems the empathy SWAT missed me, since I was out for a while.
But I found my frontdoor was broken, and they left a big heart-shaped cake in my living room with a knife stabbed into the middle.

SmokeDetector

5:09 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected, toxic answer detected: How do I recover a deleted Spotify play list? by Crystal karhunen on webapps.SE

πάντα ῥεῖ

sd tp-

SmokeDetector

5:22 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: How can I find out which technologies were used to generate a website? by TheMuhamamdRamzan on superuser.com

Shadow Wizard

5:45 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ chocolate cake, at least?

I just can't resist chocolate cakes. ;)

Though the last few days I consumed lots of cheese cake due to the holiday.

πάντα ῥεῖ

:) Blackforest cherry, of course. Chocolate inside, and red cherries on top.

Shadow Wizard

drooling

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Shadow I liked your tweet in hebrew yesterday.

Martin James

6:03 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ Well, even with sprinkles, tweets are not all that tasty:(

πάντα ῥεῖ

Sangria was a brilliant proposal :3

Mithrandir24601

!!\tea Mithrandir24601

Bother wrong way round :/

!!/tea Mithrandir24601

SmokeDetector

@Mithrandir24601 brews a cup of lemon tea for @Mithrandir24601

πάντα ῥεῖ

!!/alive

SmokeDetector

@πάνταῥεῖ Watching this endless list of new questions never gets boring

Mithrandir24601

6:07 PM

:)

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad NS for domain in body: Billboard Music Awards 2018 by Ajanta Jebra on meta.SE (@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog)

rene

6:33 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ Schwarzwälder Kirschtorte \o/

πάντα ῥεῖ

Well, we have may now since 2 weeks, why doesn't that stop :-/

@rene Yup ;-)

rene

luv it ...

πάντα ῥεῖ

There's sometimes even considerable amounts of Kirschwasser in it ;-)

If you don't expect kids on the table :3

rene

yeah ...

user5389107

Anyone got a decent podcast to listen to

I need to bridge 5 hours

Discrete lizard

6:50 PM

@JourneymanGeek While that may be true, I think good solutions would focus on both aspects. For instance, the difference of a system with 'no downvotes, only comments' in which one common accepted usage of comments is to say '+1' or '-1' and the actual SE system is mainly technical. (or at least has a non-negligible technical component) But the cultural impact/consequence is massive. I think that one approach to reduce non-dev eek_ing _could be a different UI, for instance.

πάντα ῥεῖ

I'd go for kudos, that seems what everyone likes most.

Shadow Wizard

!!/sangria

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard No such command 'sangria'.

πάντα ῥεῖ

:(

Shadow Wizard

:(

πάντα ῥεῖ

6:55 PM

smokey is an admitted party pooper!

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer, username similar to website in answer, blacklisted user: Where does the music of reading Quran comes from? by quranteaching on islam.SE

πάντα ῥεῖ

7:11 PM

sd why

SmokeDetector

[:6965647] Body - Position 169-186: quranteaching.com
Post - Username `quranteaching` similar to `quranteaching`, ratio=1.0
Blacklisted user - blacklisted for //islam.stackexchange.com/a/48190 (https://m.erwaysoftware.com/posts/by-url?url=//islam.stackexchange.com/a/48190) by the metasmoke API

πάντα ῥεῖ

sd tpu-

@SmokeDetector tpu-

sd poof

rene

7:33 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ did you see a similar post like that last one for mp3louder.com today?

πάντα ῥεῖ

@rene A number of, but I've got deja-vú's all the time :P

I've seen something about mic volumes definitely.

rene

Yeah, that was it

Maybe not the same then

πάντα ῥεῖ

//shrug

user359686

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

πάντα ῥεῖ

Princess Celestia should be renamed. It leaves just a bad taste if used by a straight, white male :-/

@MartinJames If you're that (Vim) MJ, I just noticed you also have some experience with Delphi. I am currently in a nice discussion with Dalija regarding differences in lambda handling Delphi vs. C++.

πάντα ῥεῖ

7:56 PM

Just to ground feets at the real serious problemz again ...

@MartinJames What do you mean exactly "sprinkles"? Those lil dots put to indicate vowels inbetween all the letter mess?

I demand: Every programming language in the world should be inclusive and not just leave us with their developers weird and toxic minds.

I demand: The laws of physics should be thoroughly investigated by a bible proof commission instantiated by the senate. Any influence or political interaction of climate change to Mr. Trumps presidency campaign should be rigorously turned to public notice.

> youtube.com/watch?v=BzGHhaMUqSQ

Martin James

8:18 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ I guss you have to be German to get that reference:)

πάντα ῥεῖ

Worse: Bavarian! (at least regarding me)

No, but Rio Reiser not really. Though he was living at my town of birth, and I didn't even noticed a few years laterz. World is small.

@MartinJames Here's a gist of what I'm discussing with Dalija ATM: gist.github.com/jbeardson/6a7146d295e45723b982fa63a9f6259e

Would be a nice article in the form of a Stack Overflow Q&A. But well ...

Discrete lizard

Sprinkles

Sprinkles or sugar strands are very small pieces of confectionery used as a decoration or to add texture to desserts such as cupcakes, doughnuts or ice cream. The tiny candies are produced in a variety of colors and are generally used as a topping or a decorative element. == Types == Popular terminology for this confection tends to overlap, while manufacturers are more precise with their labeling. What consumers often call "sprinkles" covers several types of candy decorations that are sprinkled randomly over a surface, as opposed to decorations that are placed in specific spots. Nonparei...

@MartinJames Or Dutch.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Could well be. But tweets are rarely garnished with such toppings (140pcs remember?)

@MartinJames Meanwhile I forget to ping, even if it would be appropriate.

Sorry.

πάντα ῥεῖ

9:27 PM

We can garnish with sprinkles though: twitter.com/GntherMakulik/status/998313881142521856

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

9:53 PM

@ShadowWizard Users with <3k reputation can see links to questions and author profiles that they RC flagged if they get deleted, as can users with 10k+ reputation for questions they voted to close. But 3k+ users below 10k rep can't see these for questions they voted to close.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Says "The holy book of rulez"

<3k looks cute and emphatic. You should keep it.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@ShadowWizard chaos-emerald-pls Please add meta.stackexchange.com/questions/306379/… to the duplicate list of meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310409/…

πάντα ῥεῖ

Sonic's extra weekend bonus for all of us volunteers, yeah!

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@πάνταῥεῖ What?

πάντα ῥεῖ

Don't ping me plz!

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

10:06 PM

You seem to be chiming in to every single discussion in a rather...invasive way

ArtOfCode

cough

maybe let's not start a fight

Journeyman Geek

10:35 PM

erm morning.

@πάνταῥεῖ I think if @ShadowWizard has an issue with doing said dupe closes he can say so?

also. totally pinged you.

πάντα ῥεῖ

You are welcome.

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog getting that gold badge so you can dupe things yourself sounds like something you ought to work towards ^^. I mean, for someone so interested in how SE works, you tend to try to work around a lot of it.

and/or just dupevote it yourself and let the community do its thing, even if its slow

Anonymous

@Jaydles no edit is going to save this one, my friend. I say that as someone who has been massively downvoted on meta before, of course. (look at my post history here and on meta.se, if you need examples) — Jeff Atwood May 4 at 22:21

πάντα ῥεῖ

The walking dead speak! Shreek!!

πάντα ῥεῖ

10:57 PM

sd Pshhh!

Shadow Wizard

11:34 PM

@ArtOfCode unless it involves pillows!

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog on mobile, will do tomorrow if still needed

@JourneymanGeek hmm?

ArtOfCode

@ShadowWizard I suppose I can allow those :P

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard oh, about @SonictheInclusiveHedgehog 's tendancy to ask for dupe closes ;p

(I'm not a fan but blah)

Shadow Wizard

@ArtOfCode yay!

@JourneymanGeek oh, I am fine with those. :)

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard oh the general principle(s) of it

That he's essentially using that to short circult actually getting a privilege , and I'm not super fond of dupe closures on meta since meta essentially acts as a helpdesk for new users too

but ehhh whatever ;)

I doth complaineth too mucheth.

Voting behavior on meta and inclusivity

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